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[A] Starbow - Page 514

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
January 19 2014 16:06 GMT
#10261
Scourge do overkill here as well, but not as "bad".
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
AnteZ
Profile Joined September 2011
Germany29 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-19 19:22:04
January 19 2014 18:56 GMT
#10262
Hello,
thanks for this great mod. Your effort is very appreciated. I have taken another look at the problem of clumped movement and I have come up with a new approach (to my knowledge) to spread out units while moving.
The basic idea is to have every unit followed by a neutral unit.
The follower will take up space, and cause the other units in the clump to spread out.

I have hacked together a small demonstration. You can see the result here.
Or search for "spread spread out movement" in the eu custom games (not arcade). I should say that the follower should be made invisible in a serious implementation.


Its a very dirty hack. I made it in 15 minutes and I have close to no experience with the editor. Here is what I did:
I put some marines and neutral zerglings onto the map. Then I modified the zerglings to have a small little sphere as model. I set its push priority to 100 and its movement speed to 2.3.
After that, I created a trigger that orders each zergling to follow one marine upon startup.

As a result, the silky smooth movements of the sc2 engine are mostly preserved, while the clumping is avoided. Further more, the units formation is never the same, although in my tests a preference for an arrow shaped patterns has shone through (similar tobird formations).

Let me know what you think and if you would consider implementing something like this into starbow.
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-19 22:28:27
January 19 2014 22:27 GMT
#10263
On January 20 2014 03:56 AnteZ wrote:
Hello,
thanks for this great mod. Your effort is very appreciated. I have taken another look at the problem of clumped movement and I have come up with a new approach (to my knowledge) to spread out units while moving.
The basic idea is to have every unit followed by a neutral unit.
The follower will take up space, and cause the other units in the clump to spread out.

I have hacked together a small demonstration. You can see the result here.
Or search for "spread spread out movement" in the eu custom games (not arcade). I should say that the follower should be made invisible in a serious implementation.


Its a very dirty hack. I made it in 15 minutes and I have close to no experience with the editor. Here is what I did:
I put some marines and neutral zerglings onto the map. Then I modified the zerglings to have a small little sphere as model. I set its push priority to 100 and its movement speed to 2.3.
After that, I created a trigger that orders each zergling to follow one marine upon startup.

As a result, the silky smooth movements of the sc2 engine are mostly preserved, while the clumping is avoided. Further more, the units formation is never the same, although in my tests a preference for an arrow shaped patterns has shone through (similar tobird formations).

Let me know what you think and if you would consider implementing something like this into starbow.

And how exactly would you micro backwards?

Zerglings being randomly blocked by invisible followers?

Don't get me wrong, its an interesting idea and attempt at less clumpy movement, but it seems like it would have a TON of flaws. Players need to have reliable movement.
CutTheEnemy
Profile Joined November 2013
Canada373 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-20 00:01:38
January 20 2014 00:01 GMT
#10264
You could fix the scourge to get extra overkill by having it do damage over time for .5 seconds, something to delay the kill minutely basically. They're sky banes, watching tourneys I don't see any need to split them at all anymore.
Can we help spread the word and create pressure to get Rob Pardo to replace Browder as head of Sc2? Pardo led the team for broodwar, frozen throne, and wow/BC. We need to make this a thing before LotV development starts. Think about it.
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
January 20 2014 01:22 GMT
#10265
On January 20 2014 07:27 decemberscalm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2014 03:56 AnteZ wrote:
Hello,
thanks for this great mod. Your effort is very appreciated. I have taken another look at the problem of clumped movement and I have come up with a new approach (to my knowledge) to spread out units while moving.
The basic idea is to have every unit followed by a neutral unit.
The follower will take up space, and cause the other units in the clump to spread out.

I have hacked together a small demonstration. You can see the result here.
Or search for "spread spread out movement" in the eu custom games (not arcade). I should say that the follower should be made invisible in a serious implementation.


Its a very dirty hack. I made it in 15 minutes and I have close to no experience with the editor. Here is what I did:
I put some marines and neutral zerglings onto the map. Then I modified the zerglings to have a small little sphere as model. I set its push priority to 100 and its movement speed to 2.3.
After that, I created a trigger that orders each zergling to follow one marine upon startup.

As a result, the silky smooth movements of the sc2 engine are mostly preserved, while the clumping is avoided. Further more, the units formation is never the same, although in my tests a preference for an arrow shaped patterns has shone through (similar tobird formations).

Let me know what you think and if you would consider implementing something like this into starbow.

And how exactly would you micro backwards?

Zerglings being randomly blocked by invisible followers?

Don't get me wrong, its an interesting idea and attempt at less clumpy movement, but it seems like it would have a TON of flaws. Players need to have reliable movement.

Are you not even going to try it? The way the units move in that video is perfect. Please just try it :/
sorry for dem one liners
SolidSMD
Profile Joined April 2011
Belgium408 Posts
January 20 2014 02:03 GMT
#10266
On January 20 2014 10:22 NukeD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2014 07:27 decemberscalm wrote:
On January 20 2014 03:56 AnteZ wrote:
Hello,
thanks for this great mod. Your effort is very appreciated. I have taken another look at the problem of clumped movement and I have come up with a new approach (to my knowledge) to spread out units while moving.
The basic idea is to have every unit followed by a neutral unit.
The follower will take up space, and cause the other units in the clump to spread out.

I have hacked together a small demonstration. You can see the result here.
Or search for "spread spread out movement" in the eu custom games (not arcade). I should say that the follower should be made invisible in a serious implementation.


Its a very dirty hack. I made it in 15 minutes and I have close to no experience with the editor. Here is what I did:
I put some marines and neutral zerglings onto the map. Then I modified the zerglings to have a small little sphere as model. I set its push priority to 100 and its movement speed to 2.3.
After that, I created a trigger that orders each zergling to follow one marine upon startup.

As a result, the silky smooth movements of the sc2 engine are mostly preserved, while the clumping is avoided. Further more, the units formation is never the same, although in my tests a preference for an arrow shaped patterns has shone through (similar tobird formations).

Let me know what you think and if you would consider implementing something like this into starbow.

And how exactly would you micro backwards?

Zerglings being randomly blocked by invisible followers?

Don't get me wrong, its an interesting idea and attempt at less clumpy movement, but it seems like it would have a TON of flaws. Players need to have reliable movement.

Are you not even going to try it? The way the units move in that video is perfect. Please just try it :/


The way they move without interacting with enemy units you mean, invisible units will lead to a lot of problems.
Working on Starbow!
Beef Noodles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States937 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-20 04:08:40
January 20 2014 04:07 GMT
#10267
I don't know how collision detection works in the editor, but...

Could you give every ground unit a check for if it collides with another unit? If it collides, give it like a 50% chance to take a step in a random direction before continuing on the path on which it is ordered to move? That way, you get predictable movement once units are spaced far enough apart?

I could see it also giving clumped units a "scooby doo" like effect (where they don't really start moving where you want them to at first), because when they are very clumped and they get the command to move, it might start a crazy chain reaction of collisions. If that's the case, maybe try a 20-30% chance to step in a random direction?

Just throwing ideas out
Gene(S)is
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden419 Posts
January 20 2014 04:39 GMT
#10268
I have hacked together a small demonstration. You can see the result here.
Or search for "spread spread out movement" in the eu custom games (not arcade). I should say that the follower should be made invisible in a serious implementation.


That way of moving reminds me much more of BW then what we have today, it would also be less frustruating when dealing with say storms and baneling mines.

How are the sound effects in Starbow, do they use the old BW tracks?
For the swarm
Qwyn
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2779 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-20 04:52:31
January 20 2014 04:51 GMT
#10269
On January 20 2014 13:39 Gene(S)is wrote:
Show nested quote +
I have hacked together a small demonstration. You can see the result here.
Or search for "spread spread out movement" in the eu custom games (not arcade). I should say that the follower should be made invisible in a serious implementation.


That way of moving reminds me much more of BW then what we have today, it would also be less frustruating when dealing with say storms and baneling mines.

How are the sound effects in Starbow, do they use the old BW tracks?


Nope, but when Patch 2.1 comes out you will be able to listen to BW soundtracks .

Some units do - depends on if they have an SC2 representation or not. For instance, scourge use BW sounds because they have no sound files in SC2. Lurkers use the sounds they had in SC2 before they were scrapped.
"Think of the hysteria following the realization that they consciously consume babies and raise the dead people from their graves" - N0
Budmind
Profile Joined January 2014
Germany2 Posts
January 20 2014 12:50 GMT
#10270
Just throwing in a question: Is the movementspeed on medics going to be nerfed slightlity? As it is of now theyre the same speed as nonstimmed rines, thus can be held a A-Move meleeblocking circle( try zerg flanking on that) or is it as intended?
AnteZ
Profile Joined September 2011
Germany29 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-20 13:09:42
January 20 2014 12:56 GMT
#10271
On January 20 2014 07:27 decemberscalm wrote:
And how exactly would you micro backwards?

Zerglings being randomly blocked by invisible followers?

Don't get me wrong, its an interesting idea and attempt at less clumpy movement, but it seems like it would have a TON of flaws. Players need to have reliable movement.

I don't have all the answers yet, I just wanted to get some feedback as soon as possible. I agree that reliability is of the highest importance - the player must feel in control at any moment.
I also agree that having invisible blocking units on the map is asking for a lot of problems. But it will still be a finite amount of problems so maybe it is worth the trouble.

I am going to fiddle around a little more when I am back from work in a few hours. I wonder if it would feel too strange if we only activate the followers a few seconds after the move command has been issued. This way the very intense in-battle micro should remain largely the same, while the clumping that usually occurs on longer distances (I guess - i havent actually investigated this) should be mitigated.

As for the zergling case: I am not sure what the best way of handling this is. I am thinking of adding some sort of small range aura for every melee unit that deactivates enemy followers in some way.



On January 20 2014 13:07 Beef Noodles wrote:
I don't know how collision detection works in the editor, but...

Could you give every ground unit a check for if it collides with another unit? If it collides, give it like a 50% chance to take a step in a random direction before continuing on the path on which it is ordered to move? That way, you get predictable movement once units are spaced far enough apart?

I could see it also giving clumped units a "scooby doo" like effect (where they don't really start moving where you want them to at first), because when they are very clumped and they get the command to move, it might start a crazy chain reaction of collisions. If that's the case, maybe try a 20-30% chance to step in a random direction?

Just throwing ideas out


I have though of that actually before the idea with the invisible units. But I imagine that it would result in a lot more jerky motions. Think about it: every gap in the unit clump will quickly be filled again and we have to keep making gap by moving a unit in a random direction (jerky and out of the players control). With the followers the gaps are persistent and the units move around them smoothly. Jerkyness might occur when splitting up a clump but not once the units are spread out.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
January 20 2014 13:03 GMT
#10272
On January 20 2014 21:56 AnteZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2014 07:27 decemberscalm wrote:
And how exactly would you micro backwards?

Zerglings being randomly blocked by invisible followers?

Don't get me wrong, its an interesting idea and attempt at less clumpy movement, but it seems like it would have a TON of flaws. Players need to have reliable movement.

I don't have all the answers yet, I just wanted to get some feedback as soon as possible. I agree that reliability is of the highest importance - the player must feel in control at any moment.
I also agree that having invisible blocking units on the map is asking for a lot of problems. But it will still be a finite amount of problems so maybe it is worth the trouble.

I am going to fiddle around a little more when I am back from work in a few hours. I wonder if it would feel too strange if we only activate the followers a few seconds after the move command has been issued. This way the very intense in-battle micro should remain largely the same, while the clumping that usually occurs on longer distances (I guess - i havent actually investigated this) should be mitigated.

As for the zergling case: I am not sure what the best way of handling this is. I am thinking of adding some sort of small range aura for every melee unit that deactivates enemy followers in some way.

For the video, I didn't understand the moment where the marine was blocked in by the zergling. Don't units move out of the way automatically unless on hold position? Or is that only for friendly units? Or not for units that are on a move/follow command?
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
AnteZ
Profile Joined September 2011
Germany29 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-20 14:32:39
January 20 2014 14:32 GMT
#10273

For the video, I didn't understand the moment where the marine was blocked in by the zergling. Don't units move out of the way automatically unless on hold position? Or is that only for friendly units? Or not for units that are on a move/follow command?


Not neccessarily. There is a variable called push priority that controls it. My guess is that you can only push units with lower or equal push priority. I have set the push priority of the followers to a very high value so they do not budge.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-20 14:54:02
January 20 2014 14:52 GMT
#10274
On January 20 2014 23:32 AnteZ wrote:
Show nested quote +

For the video, I didn't understand the moment where the marine was blocked in by the zergling. Don't units move out of the way automatically unless on hold position? Or is that only for friendly units? Or not for units that are on a move/follow command?


Not neccessarily. There is a variable called push priority that controls it. My guess is that you can only push units with lower or equal push priority. I have set the push priority of the followers to a very high value so they do not budge.

I don't think it's a good solution though, although to its credit in some scenarios it performs admirably.

For instance, what if you're trying to raise a supply depot, but you can't because there is an invisible follower? What if you're trying to plant a building? What if a group of units are going into a dead-end path and there is a clump of invisible followers in the way of one of the units, like an invisible wall separating it from its companions, won't that feel weird and inconsistent?

And there are a number of complicated implementation issues, I would say. Dropships would require the destruction and creation of a new follower for every pick-up. As would vikings for every landing. After the phoenix' graviton beam you'd have to send a new move command. Every unit needs a separate follower too, causing immense overhead during the design process, because every time you change one value on one unit you need to change it on the follower as well.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
AnteZ
Profile Joined September 2011
Germany29 Posts
January 20 2014 16:02 GMT
#10275
Good points so far. I am making a list of issues and try to think of a way of doing things without requiring too many special cases. Though I am not too worried about problems with dropships, raising depot and such. Yes they require special treatment but I think they are not unsolvable - if tedious.
I am far more worried about units interacting with eachother like SolidSMD mentioned. That will need testing.

By the way: anybody know how the templar is implemented? It has this blueish thingy that follows it. Perhaps there is a way of making it solid and act as a follower. That would be much cleaner.

Any suggestions are very welcome.
Beef Noodles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States937 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-20 18:50:49
January 20 2014 18:50 GMT
#10276
On January 20 2014 21:56 AnteZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2014 13:07 Beef Noodles wrote:
I don't know how collision detection works in the editor, but...

Could you give every ground unit a check for if it collides with another unit? If it collides, give it like a 50% chance to take a step in a random direction before continuing on the path on which it is ordered to move? That way, you get predictable movement once units are spaced far enough apart?

I could see it also giving clumped units a "scooby doo" like effect (where they don't really start moving where you want them to at first), because when they are very clumped and they get the command to move, it might start a crazy chain reaction of collisions. If that's the case, maybe try a 20-30% chance to step in a random direction?

Just throwing ideas out


I have though of that actually before the idea with the invisible units. But I imagine that it would result in a lot more jerky motions. Think about it: every gap in the unit clump will quickly be filled again and we have to keep making gap by moving a unit in a random direction (jerky and out of the players control). With the followers the gaps are persistent and the units move around them smoothly. Jerkyness might occur when splitting up a clump but not once the units are spread out.

Good point, but didn't units move "jerky" in brood war? I remember my lings would sometimes jump backwards before getting into a kongo line and going to the destination.

It might be interesting to check for collision, and give a 50% chance to take a step in 1 of 5 directions (as opposed to a random direction). The five directions being forward, left, right, forward right (diagonal), forward left (diagonal). All directions being relative to the unit's orientation.

Again I don't use the editor, so I don't know how feasible this would be, so feel free to ignore me.
iHirO
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom1381 Posts
January 20 2014 22:25 GMT
#10277
Starbow testing:

I had a play about with the Starbow Tester, here's some things I noticed.

Possible Balance Issues:
  • Ghost's Shock ability is stackable meaning that its possible to immbolise units in an area with multiple shots.
  • Hallucinated observers/science vessels/overseers retain their detection ability.
  • Defilers can consume free units (e.g. changelings) to restore mana. In a maxed army situation you could have unlimited overseers providing free energy.
  • Hallucinated Arbiters retain their cloaking field, which could be imbalanced.
  • Science Vessel's Emp drains all energy and shields, is this spell too strong?

Bugs:
  • Error messages displayed on screen when attempting to Overcharge non production buildings (e.g. supply depots, tech labs, reactors, CCs etc).
  • Reavers continue to lock on to target even when no scarabs are available.
  • Reavers do no damage if friendly units are targeted to be attacked.
  • Overlord/Dropship/Warp Prism doesn't show their carrying capacity bar.
  • Overcharge can be continuously dropped on a building, should it be prevented or is it correct behaviour?
  • Hallucinated changelings glitch when attempting to transform (minor issue).
  • Hallucinated units don't show a timer.
  • Non Protoss hallucinations show normal death animations instead of fading away (minor issue).
  • “Not Enough Energy” message displayed when attempting to chrono boost a geyser.
  • Unable to hallucinate burrowed units, is this by design?

Questions:
  • Why are Lurkers the only zerg unit to have a separate unburrow hotkey?
  • Why can the Medic cast Matrix on mechanical units instead of just biological units? Is this to encourage Bio Mech builds?
GraphicsThis is for all you new people: I only have one rule. Everyone fights. No one quits. You don't do your job, I'll shoot you myself. You get me?
NapkinBox
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States314 Posts
January 21 2014 03:52 GMT
#10278
Hahah, you mentioning Hallucinated Arbiters reminded me of when White_ra (I think) massed Hal. Arbiters to recall into enemy base.

Matrix on mech units for those turnaround moments I guess; saving a siege tank and so forth. You can Matrix on Vessels right? Would make saving Vessels from Scourges alot easier.
"Who has the best durability feat in all of comic book superheroes?" "Aquaman surviving pop culture."
[SC]Django
Profile Joined September 2013
Poland44 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-21 10:44:39
January 21 2014 10:26 GMT
#10279
Please visual & graphics changes to :

Vulture "Ion Thrusters" upgrade icon change:
[image loading]

Siege tank "Siege Mode" upgrade icon change:
[image loading]

Maybe Change model from dropship for this "Hercules dropship"
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Hercules_dropship
Of course change size...

Sentinel: model, portait and sounds change to Oracle
[image loading]

and why arbiter doesn't have old remastered sounds ?



Please for this changes i I would be happy.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9396 Posts
January 21 2014 13:01 GMT
#10280
On January 21 2014 07:25 iHirO wrote:
Starbow testing:

I had a play about with the Starbow Tester, here's some things I noticed.

Possible Balance Issues:
  • Ghost's Shock ability is stackable meaning that its possible to immbolise units in an area with multiple shots.
  • Hallucinated observers/science vessels/overseers retain their detection ability.
  • Defilers can consume free units (e.g. changelings) to restore mana. In a maxed army situation you could have unlimited overseers providing free energy.
  • Hallucinated Arbiters retain their cloaking field, which could be imbalanced.
  • Science Vessel's Emp drains all energy and shields, is this spell too strong?

Bugs:
  • Error messages displayed on screen when attempting to Overcharge non production buildings (e.g. supply depots, tech labs, reactors, CCs etc).
  • Reavers continue to lock on to target even when no scarabs are available.
  • Reavers do no damage if friendly units are targeted to be attacked.
  • Overlord/Dropship/Warp Prism doesn't show their carrying capacity bar.
  • Overcharge can be continuously dropped on a building, should it be prevented or is it correct behaviour?
  • Hallucinated changelings glitch when attempting to transform (minor issue).
  • Hallucinated units don't show a timer.
  • Non Protoss hallucinations show normal death animations instead of fading away (minor issue).
  • “Not Enough Energy” message displayed when attempting to chrono boost a geyser.
  • Unable to hallucinate burrowed units, is this by design?

Questions:
  • Why are Lurkers the only zerg unit to have a separate unburrow hotkey?
  • Why can the Medic cast Matrix on mechanical units instead of just biological units? Is this to encourage Bio Mech builds?


Great post. Thanks for finding these inconsistencies. We will look into it.
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