EPT[A] Starbow - Page 497
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Tomorrow will I start to work on the next patch. (Fix bugs, improve things, try to finish unfinished stuff, tweak things that are off..) | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
And in starbow, which u pointed out lurker is good against light and both marauder and firebat are armored. Marauder i feel is imba against toss to. Anway, buffing the ultras can be a problem in pvz for sure. Unless we buff toss in some areas against zerg. Ultra/ling is already a beast in bw against toss Right now, the deadly combination in zvt is hydra/lurk/viper. I think this will melt terran bio with support of tanks quite hard since marines dps is nerfed and abduct is insane - 1)Look at marauder, and firebat 2) Look at ultras->if you do, look at protoss to compensate 3) Abduct needs to change imo | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
I would wait a bit more to see. A lot of gameplay development is still ahead of us I think. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
On January 11 2014 20:58 Xiphias wrote: Yes, a more active use of ensnare vs terran bio might solve this actually. I would wait a bit more to see. A lot of gameplay development is still ahead of us I think. Ensnare = Vipers ability? I already tested that ability along with ling/Ultras multiple times in the editor: Bio still rapes ultralisks/speedlings without any micro. IMO this needs a change ASAP - waiting will be bad for the game, because I fear that new SBOW players will watch Ryungs game and adopt the same deathballstyle which isn't very fun. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
Right now, the deadly combination in zvt is hydra/lurk/viper. I think this will melt terran bio with support of tanks quite hard since marines dps is nerfed and abduct is insane Given that we can't redesign it (apparently that doesn't work), what would be proper stats for it? Something like 7 range maybe? Look at marauder, and firebat Yeh, I wonder if both of them couldn't use like a small HP nerf. They really tank well actually. Wait........ I just checked stats of Firebat in BW: It had 50 HP there. In Sbow it has 100!!! How on earth has that gone unnoticed for so long? Yes its a bit more expensive in Sbow - 75/25 instead of 50/25, but this a 100% HP buff is way too much. No wonder, Ultralisks took forever to killl anything in that bio army. I wanna see something like this: - Firebat HP reduced from 100 to 80 - Baneling damage changed to 60 vs armored and 30 vs light The baneling is thus much better overall than in Sc2. This is neccesary as zerg has less larva in Sbow/BW and thus needs to be more effective. Its also still pretty decent vs light, so you will still need to split Marines vs it. EDIT: Maurauder nerf isn't needed yet I think. Esp. if banelings gets better vs armored. I tested speedlot + dragoon vs Firebat and Maurauder, it came out pretty even. W/ a Firebat nerf, I doubt a Maurauder nerf is needed as well. EDIT 2.0: Maybe it's fine w/ Firebat having 100 HP due to being countered by Hydralisks. Then Firebats are strong vs speedlings, but banelings perform well vs Firebats. | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
Very nice game, good to see a zerg pro in action. I have to say I agree with hider, a slight nerf to marauder/firebat hp + the baneling vs armored + splashdamage on ultra sounds like great a idea. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
But why not change that? Make it Medium while nerfing its HP to 80. This will maintain its utility vs protoss while balancing it better vs Zerg. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
High the mana cost to atleast 100. The range part is kind of difficult imo, since if its "to short", the abudct will be overall to bad? But worth a try, 7 as u said. I guess its 9 right now @Firebat It hasnt gone unnoticed, kabel did this on purpose a few months back. Note that it was light in broodwar, here it is armored. And he do less dps here(shoots slower even without stim) His first intention behind it was that the firebat was realtively bad against protoss. So with this change, hydras and goons deal full dmg to firebat which on paper could be quite nice I feel the marauder is the bigger threat here overall though, imba against toss and zerg to some extent(not fully). I guess the cleanest solution is to look at marauder-ultras and then compensate protoss vs ultra I like the sc2 marauder cost and techlab requirement. Since that marauder win slightly against a stalker, which has less health and do less dps against armored. 125/25 20 explosive Is that to high damage overall? Its 20against shields. And 10against zerglings,zealots. A problem? Shouldnt be? The armored problem imo is against ultras and not dragoons. Not sure when stim is combined tho | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
It hasnt gone unnoticed, kabel did this on purpose a few months back. Note that it was light in broodwar, here it is armored. And he do less dps here(shoots slower even without stim) His first intention behind it was that the firebat was realtively bad against protoss. So with this change, hydras and goons deal full dmg to firebat which on paper could be quite nice Ahh I see, yeh adding Hydralisks into the compostion changes things up a bit. But this is the same principle (almost) as my baneling-suggestion, a bit unintuitive in some ways as most players won't be aware of it. I guess we need some kind of tooltip highlighting the most important differences relative to BW. I feel the marauder is the bigger threat here overall though, imba against toss and zerg to some extent(not fully). I guess the cleanest solution is to look at marauder-ultras and then compensate protoss vs ultra Hmm in which situations are Maurauders OP? According to my testings they aren't that good because they perform poorly vs leglots? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Hmm in which situations are Maurauders OP? According to my testings they aren't that good because they perform poorly vs leglots? Well, ye they should lose quite hard against speedlots. Maybe bad versus archons to, not sure But the problem is they are very cost effecient right now against pretty much everything else, and in particular vs dragoons, while at the same time they are pretty good against splash to i feel with their highspeed and semi-high health. So toss adds speedzealots/archons vs marauder play(If he gets time, iam not sure he has time here, but lets argue he have). I feel terran gets upper hand here by adding marines/firebats/medics or maybe just go vultures/marauders. If u feel otherwise, tell me a bit unintuitive in some ways as most players won't be aware of it. I guess we need some kind of tooltip highlighting the most important differences relative to BW. Dont think thats necessary(?) You see the armor type of the units you press - And you adapt from there | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
On January 11 2014 21:50 Foxxan wrote: Well, ye they should lose quite hard against speedlots. Maybe bad versus archons to, not sure But the problem is they are very cost effecient right now against pretty much everything else, and in particular vs dragoons, while at the same time they are pretty good against splash to i feel with their highspeed and semi-high health. So toss adds speedzealots/archons vs marauder play(If he gets time, iam not sure he has time here, but lets argue he have). I feel terran gets upper hand here by adding marines/firebats/medics or maybe just go vultures/marauders. If u feel otherwise, tell me Tested it a bit more. While they do not exactly rape protoss. I think they are a just a bit too strong early game vs protoss as they just don't die when they get healed. I agree that a 110-115 HP for the Maurauder would be better actually. I think when protoss gets a critical mass of leglots + HT's, its pretty fine though. One thing though: How is that different from Marines vs protoss? Isn't it the same concept? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Ye, you go pure marauders for a while and adapt from there with what u see. The difference with the marine i guess is he is very weak versus splash. And dragoons can kite some-what. Difference is, toss opens normal build - He sees bioplay - he adds a natural reaver from his robotic against marines While with marauder, i dont think reaver works so toss is stuck at robotic tech here, no speed on zealots in sight. And marauders crush dragoons. In unit tester - amove test ofcourse. 2marauders rape 1dragoon. Actually. Quite funny here. Why dont we playtest this and see with real eyes. I think we both see it a bit different - although not completely | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Edit: Also Dark Swarm has a casting range of 5 these days. Too short? (BW was 9). (I think the "cloud" is both smaller and has shorter duration compared to BW). I would like to maybe try 7 range, but keep the cloud size and the duration. It feels so much harder to get a good dark swarm cast in sbow. | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
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ionONE
Germany605 Posts
- make defiler model a little bit smaller maybe | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
On January 11 2014 22:56 SolidSMD wrote: Yeah, I agree on dark swarm, range 5 feels too short, impact had a lot of trouble getting swarm off. Why is that bad? Should abilities be easy to use? | ||
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Ovni
89 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
On January 11 2014 23:30 Ovni wrote: It's nothing to do with being easy to use.. just very easy for Terran to snipe the Defiler due to the short range and cast delay. Impact had a hard time vs a bio army, just imagine trying to attack Marine/Tank armies. Scan, shift-target Defilers with tanks, no swarms. Yes, but its also "easy" for a terran to snipe HT's right? Why isn't that bad? Isn't it a good thing an HT often times doesn't get off a succesful Storm? An HT btw only costs marginally less (50/100) than a Defiler (50/150). I guess I really don't see why such a relatively cheap unit like a Defiler should be safe from being sniped. I believe the lower range makes it easier to snipe and harder to get off a succesful Dark Swarm. That will help seperate a good DS user from a bad DS user. At a range of 8-9, it will always get DS off (since its effective range is much longer), thus it just doens't seem that exiciting. W/ Tank armies I also don't really see the big issue since you can force tank to waste his first shot on zerglings for instance, and then move in with Defilers. | ||
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
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