EPT[A] Starbow - Page 452
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
Buff scout abit slightly. In cost. 275/125/3 in bw 200/125/3 in starbow, and remove that ability(you know i despise that ability on scout, you have seen my reasons before) Think this would let we see scout a bit more and not just only for his op spell (dont forget to make his upgrades resemble bw, right now he moves alot slower) And make his upgrades at fleetbacon faster BT and cheaper would cause an increased effect in seeing scouts. and remember, devcourers, scouts are still good against big armored air units (carriers, bcs) and so on. Scouts are really good at killing overlords. Also if carriers micro dont get fixed, you could also reduce cost of fleetbacon. Right now its more expensive to go arbiters here than in bw cuz fleetbacon is more expensive than arbiter tribunal I like this, because i want watch more scout early play. Scout can be an excellent unit, combining his anti air attack (strong vs. armored) with gravitonic beam of corsair. I noticed that in almost all mu is always good to have 5 corsairs and 2-3 scouts, to snipe key units (tanks/lurkers/reavers), getting a new type of dancing micro. I do not think that removing graviton beam is a good thing. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
against good players, it will not be worth it to even build corsairs With my suggestion, it will be more consistent With the old lift(which we have now) its fun to lift off expensive units (siegetanks, goliaths) and so on. But its rather imba that way I noticed that in almost all mu is always good to have 5 corsairs and 2-3 scouts, to snipe key units I doubt this alot. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I prefer Graviton beam over Disruption web on Corsair for the following reasons: - Encourages more harassment & map presence for the Corsair in all match-ups. - Makes the Corsair NOT a dead unit in case the enemy has no air units. - It is more fun to play with. Disruption web works together with an army and requires higher tech. If P gets 1-2 Corsairs to fight enemy Banshees or Sentinels, and the enemy builds no more air-units.. well.. then they are useless units. Just as in BW. The damage of Graviton beam must not be super low. If it deals for example 10 dmg per second to Light units, 5 dmg to everything else, it will still be enough to snipe Workers, HT, DT, Ghosts, Marines, Zerglings, very fast, but not enough to kill Hydras, Dragoons, Goliaths, Tanks etc as they do now. (But can still disable them.) This would solve so mass Corsairs can not instant kill almost everything on the ground, but still be able to harass. @Phase missile Exactly what is the problem with the concept? 1. The enemy can micro against it. 2. It punishes clumped up blobs of units and casters. 3. It gives an unique ability to the Scout. Ofc the stats might not be perfect. It drains up to 100 energy from a caster and converts that into up to maximum 100 AoE dmg. 8 range. 60 seconds cooldown. Feedback in BW is the only single target snipe spell Protoss has. Here we have Graviton beam and Phase missile. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
See no point in discussing it further @corsair Its more fun to play with because its overpowered. Yes i agree. When its getting nerfed to the suggestion one page back i think the fun will go away. I think it will be a waste to build corsairs just for the lift. I dont think you know how pvt works. Banshees are light, thats true. Protoss do not wanna build air just because of air threat, because those air units are bad versus mech terran. While banshee is still very great damage against toss armee My opinion is air units is not for everyrace, they should work different. Look at mutas, they are massed. They work like this, and its enough Corsairs are used for air or the web, not lift. He should not work like a grounddamage dealer at the same time Its to much airbased play now for my taste. Arbiter, carriers, corsairs, mutas, scienve vessels, banshee They all work different | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
i have stated my reasons before on the scouts phase missile, so have hider and solid right now. See no point in discussing it further Yes I know all of you have written about it earlier. But I have a lot of things on my mind so I don´t remember the arguments/problems mentioned. Thats why I would like to be reminded - maybe a short summary or link to a post some of you have written. Otherwise I can just look it up myself. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Me and hider talked about it and you responded is what i remember. Let me try and summarise, probably hard to find text about scout. We mentioned that phase missile has no counter to it. The spell always hits. And scout is a flying unit we wanted phase missile on the sentinel instead but with tweaks to it(you even agreed to test this) we thought that scout is a bad unit and will be used mainly because of his spell. Thats not fun gameplay. With a flying manaburner unit, combine it with arbiter and you have an amazing combo if u hit the manaburn on the scienvessels. Against zerg, making scout just for phasemissile is pretty expensive and probably not worth it. Or maybe it can be but doubtful | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
http://drop.sc/295278 This is a my old game where i do different push with corsairs and scouts. My problem was that I played relatively bad, I had to do more probes, make better use of the gateway, i not make expansion, and advance tech (robo and archive). Think how it would have been the whole game if I had not made these mistakes. Once you have different numbers of corsairs (4-5) and scouts (2-3), you can use these throughout the game and replace those destroyed. Perhaps i overestimate these units, but you underestimate them. Pls, I recommend everyone to try this a few times. | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
On October 24 2013 21:33 Kabel wrote: @Graviton beam I prefer Graviton beam over Disruption web on Corsair for the following reasons: - Encourages more harassment & map presence for the Corsair in all match-ups. - Makes the Corsair NOT a dead unit in case the enemy has no air units. - It is more fun to play with. Disruption web works together with an army and requires higher tech. If P gets 1-2 Corsairs to fight enemy Banshees or Sentinels, and the enemy builds no more air-units.. well.. then they are useless units. Just as in BW. The damage of Graviton beam must not be super low. If it deals for example 10 dmg per second to Light units, 5 dmg to everything else, it will still be enough to snipe Workers, HT, DT, Ghosts, Marines, Zerglings, very fast, but not enough to kill Hydras, Dragoons, Goliaths, Tanks etc as they do now. (But can still disable them.) This would solve so mass Corsairs can not instant kill almost everything on the ground, but still be able to harass. hm, i actually think disruption web has more utility after early game than lift does. against terran: using some lifts against tanks is bad, why? it's short range and corsairs are fragile vs terran anti-air, they simply die too quickly for the lift to pay off. Disruption web however only needs to be casted and will remain for the whole duration. Disruption web can also open up drop-play again, turret rings keep you safe until toss has enough arbiters, with disruption web however you can ferry in a warp prism. Right now the corsair is really bad vs terran, because lift isn't worth it: obviously sucks vs mech and vs bio the long lift-cooldown forces you to have many corsairs to actually matter. against zerg: in the earlygame there is hardly any difference, killing overlords or killing a couple drones is equally taxing on the zerg's economy. (Killing a queen takes way too long with corsairs) Mid/lategame: lift: with 4-5 corsairs you only have chance of doing something with lift if you find undefended bases, otherwise with a couple spores in place you will lose more resources than you will gain with the harassment. web: dt's become useless as harassment in lategame if zerg makes a couple spines/spores, you need heavy commitment to actually do some damage => disruption web allows you to passify the spines and snipe some drones with your dt. This punishes boring play (mass spore/spine, see sc2 wol/hots), units can countermicro and run away from the disruption web, buildings however can not (or at least not quickly), this means the zerg needs to defend harassment actively => good for the game. In this situation you also don't need many corsairs for disruption web to be useful, this spell fits more as a supporting role. So in my eyes disruption web allows corsair to do more harassment in the lategame than lift and is much cooler (+ allows countermicro, the counter to lift is to kill the corsair that casts it, it's hard to call that countermicro). | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On the other hand, I'd LOVE to see zerg burrow movement back! | ||
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Hider
Denmark9419 Posts
I do however think its fun to use so I don't want to remove it. However, it definitely needs some type of change which makes it less gimmicky + less about critical mass. I still think Web or some type of anti-building attack should be saved for the Scout as a replacement for Phase Missile. | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
-Remove phase missile -Add an ability that can target and disable (for x sec), a defensive structure (except planetary fortress). Is similar to the ability that had the oracle on pre beta release of hots. thoughts? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9419 Posts
@Phase missile Exactly what is the problem with the concept? 1. The enemy can micro against it. 2. It punishes clumped up blobs of units and casters. 3. It gives an unique ability to the Scout. Ofc the stats might not be perfect. It drains up to 100 energy from a caster and converts that into up to maximum 100 AoE dmg. 8 range. Two problems with Phase Missile on an expensive unit (such as a scout); 1) Its not usefull early game vs medi's. 2) It can't really be avoidable. Otherwise it would be too weak given the high cost of the Scout. | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
On October 25 2013 04:19 Hider wrote: Two problems with Phase Missile on an expensive unit (such as a scout); 1) Its not usefull early game vs medi's. 2) It can't really be avoidable. Otherwise it would be too weak given the high cost of the Scout. For this I would scout more economic but less/medium hp and medium/high movement speed. Ground weapon should make few damage, but air weapon should make strong damage vs. air armored units. I consider this as the ideal scout. thoughts? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Can someone remind me what the problems with Spider mines are again? They can not be planted if the enemy has units nearby? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
The macromechanics feels pretty solid overall. New build orders, strategies. And earlier agression It adds flavor in my mind for now @PVTmech It was quite refreshing to see corsair/scout here today. Goon/zeal feels pretty empty for me. A new none-gimmick robo unit good versus mech would be nice, but probably hard to add and not add anything to mechterran @Zerg In zvp, protoss will most likely lead with +1 attack since he goes FFE and have CB. So this makes zerglings not effective until lategame when armor equal attack and crack upgrade. It removes "one option", so a roach at lairtech would be decent? Wanna try my suggestion kabel? Its not set in stone that zerglings cant be used ofcourse even with one armor less than attack My suggestion is this if u are interested, could maybe try it? If it suck, tell so np: 75/25/1 ,same bt as hydra(not as important 80-100 hp 16normal damage 2.5 movementspeed, 2 attackspeed, range 2 Burrow ability-> Passivemovement boost, total 3.2. If attacked he gets slowed to 3. For 5seconds while burrowed, he takes 50% reduced damage from aoe and singletarget damage. His burrow animation is longer than other zerg units. Like 1.5-2 sec. While he unburrows slightly longer to. 2base armor armored Lair tech(roach building) Now he aint a must build unit, and can be still have its uses what hydra cant do. A bonus thing i thought about which you dont have to take into considderation is if he could use an teleport ability on creep to creep. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On October 25 2013 07:46 Kabel wrote: Just a quick comment: Can someone remind me what the problems with Spider mines are again? They can not be planted if the enemy has units nearby? Hmmmm. Cant mine if enemy walks into where vults are gonna plant Also, sometimes when u order the vultures to plant they dont (even if no enemy is nearby). On top of my head atleast | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
One suggestion i have is the hightemplar hallucination. Make him able to hallucinate any unit he want(even if he dont have it), make one copy. So protoss can scout here versus zerg without going stargate 50mana. Maybe even let that hallu die in 10hits or something. Requires no upgrade, The hightemplar starts with it | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Ah! I am actually playing around with its burrow ability, and potential burrow from creep to creep ability. (And some other things.) The stats you mention seem reasonable. @New stuff A new none-gimmick robo unit good versus mech would be nice, but probably hard to add and not add anything to mechterran I am in fact looking/considering/playing around with some other unit concepts too for all races - stuff that is not core and come into play in mid-late game to not mess with early balance. I will not add anything to the test map yet though. Its just very very lose ideas. I try to focus on the realistic stuff now - potential macro mechanics, important bugs, spells that are unfinished and so on. But I am concerned that the game feels too much like BW. Which is good in one way. But if its too much like BW, there is no room for anything new. There is no room for innovations, new strategies/build orders, playstyles or anything. Almost everything from BW is already explored. But first finish the basics and what we already have in the game! Then maybe later on try other concepts that does NOT mess too much with what we already have. (For example the Roach) @Hallucination Hallucination we use is seriously bugged. So I might use the SC2 Hallucination instead. Or something else to replace it if the bug can not be solved. | ||
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