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I don't think the queen is laying eggs atm. I could not find it in the post.
I'm fine with zerg being behind on workers early on, they can outproduce the other races in workers soo easily when they have 2-3 hatches.
@ Reactor / Overcharge
Please find a way to make calldown reactor work. I think most SC2 players will find it annoying that toss and terran has "the same" macro mechanic. Keeping races unique is a core part of the Starcraft universe. It seemed that there were few differences between the two.
@ People playing the mod
Seems that people were playing yesterday but it's been quite dead lately (I'm as guilty of that as any...). I think one of the main motivations of playing the mod these days, at least for me, is to continue to develop it. If Kabel becomes busy then that motivation is almost gone as he might not see the games and then might not get a chance to tweak stuff based on the game-play. I think however, ones this mod is "done" (more done), and we can try an reach out more that the motivation changes (at least for me) to play for skill improvement or just for fun.
I don't think we should be too concerned that few people are playing now if Kabel is gone for a while since development is the main motivation these days. I can, ofc, only speak for myself but I think it's true for more people as well.
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The are a lot of changes goin' on to core mechanics. "Less hardcore" testers prefer to wait for this changes to stabilize.
Btw i was thinking that the issues with both stalker and roach to fit starbow are strictly related with the will to have Goon and Hydras perfectly balanced as in BW. Having those two units as power/ core early game units makes it really difficult for roach and stalker to be appealing. They come in play later on, but they are weaker, and so as to be.
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Yeah I'll stream more soon  Actually I tried to stream more at the beginning of the week but few were online. I did not try towards the end though.
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I don't think many people play Starcraft 2 for pure enjoyment. It wouldn't surprise me if the main reason to play was to seek better understanding of the game and to improve one's skills. Starbow is not a viable alternative for these people as there is no prestige to be found in being the best at this game. Unsurprisingly, many of the people playing have half an eye on the development and are quite involved in this thread or in the community, so that explains some of the activity surrounding this project.
I think ultimately there are two options for mass appeal: 1. finish the game and position it as a competitive alternative to Starcraft 2, although there are probably too many vested interests for this to actually happen and it would require complete dissatisfaction with Blizzard and the current scene 2. have the game be so fun and addictive that it naturally draws many players to it.
I think the second option is also unrealistic, since this game is still based on Starcraft gameplay and that's just not the most fun for most people.
There are some intermediate solutions though, if there is a large enough community so that there are always 50+ players online then that should be enough to sustain everything and create slow growth, even if you will never have thousands of players.
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@The plan for the future of this project
1. Complete the game. (Bugs, spells, data, decide on some remaining design stuff)
2. Make a thread in SC2 general, organize a tournament and do some other kinds of advertisement here at TL.
3. See to how large degree people are interested in playing/observing this.
If Sbow "gains a life on its own" and a decent player pool, then it will be really cool. (Even though it is ofc hard.) But if the game declines and people just thinks this is a joke, well.. then so be it.
I stand at a crossroad. Two ways to go:
1. Finish up the game and let it be 90% BW. (The game can be "done" soon.)
2. Keep on struggling to make room for some new stuff. (Especially macro mechanics, MAYBE one extra core unit per race, and some higher tech spellcasters unfinished spells.)
I personally don´t think the game is "enough" without anything new to explore. : /
But I am also aware that it is very hard to achieve number 2 in a way that makes sense.
I am currently working on a lot of bugs and other stuff. So I will have a large update up maybe tomorrow. I will also have an update up for the test map with improved macro mechanics and some other suprises that will drive everyone insane.
Edit: I am a Goliath!1!11 ^^
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Idea for warp gate, I do not think it's great, but is better try new ideas that remain with the current.
New warpgate, require same bt of gateway to warp units. Unit during warp, has 10 armorshield.
Pro: the unit is created at a point chosen by the player (if there is a pilon field).
Counter: the warp unit is vulnerable at enemy units.
thoughts?
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That might work Johnny, but I actually don't think that's possible to do in the editor. Well, maybe with triggers...
I definitely think macro mechanics can be in this game. And should. Also, remember the game does not and will not have to be 100% balanced to be complete. Only above a certain acceptable value. I think we have some room to play around (Still, I hate the roach...)
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I actually think johnny's idea is pretty ok. This kills aggressive warp-ins, reactionary (defensive) warp-ins and this means earlier warpgates will screw less with early/midgame bw balance (because early warpgates like in sc2 make for a jump in production, while units would pop out at the end of a production cycle, they now pop at the beginning).
Though they will still be useful and feel unique.
This will allow them to come into play earlier than it currently is (and allowing them to warp in every unit instead of only a few).
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On October 22 2013 02:34 SolidSMD wrote:
I actually think johnny's idea is pretty ok. This kills aggressive warp-ins, reactionary (defensive) warp-ins and this means earlier warpgates will screw less with early/midgame bw balance (because early warpgates like in sc2 make for a jump in production, while units would pop out at the end of a production cycle, they now pop at the beginning).
Though they will still be useful and feel unique.
This will allow them to come into play earlier than it currently is (and allowing them to warp in every unit instead of only a few).
I think this idea is usually suggested in the context of having protoss start out with warpgate. There would be a host of drawbacks to the ability compared to the current balance, with an upgrade in the late game to negate some of them. After all, the current warpgate is not necessary to have in the early game since the only reason to spread out at that point is to attack your opponent, i.e. it promotes all-in play. In late game it's nice to have the ability to defend or attack multiple locations.
Warpgate discussion has probably been done to death though. :o
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@A dilemma regarding macro mechanics
I have fine tuned them further since yesterday.
- All macro mechanics are now APM intensive. (Almost twice as demanding as in SC2 for all races)
- If players use them perfectly non-stop, they have potential to speed up worker and army production by 50%.
(Its almost even for all races!)
So far so good. Probably needs some additional fine tuning after we have tried them in real games.
Here is the dilemma:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +We use BW balance as the base for Sbow. (Obviously its not 100% BW due to some new stuff in the game. But most of the basics are quite intact.)
Imagine if we increased all units movement speed by 50%.
Or all hit points by 50%.
Or all units cost by 50%.
A change like that would affect the game very fundamentally.
The problem with macro mechanics is that they affect one area in such a way: Production is increased by up to 50% across the board!
There are both positive and negative things with this.
The thing that worries me most is how it will affect players behavior in the game. Easier to reach 200/200? Much faster to saturate bases, thus expand in turtle style is much better than trying to punish enemy expansions?
If all production speed AND all units movement, attack speed and other time related factors ALSO were increased by 50%, we would maintain the production vs army relationships from BW... but on steroids...
Potential stuff to do IF this turns out to be an important gameplay problem:
>>>+ Show Spoiler + - Lower the strength of macro mechanics so they have potential to speed up everything by.. say 25%.. (But if they are too bad, players will not use APM on it..)
- Increase production time of everything across the board by a couple of %...
- Remove the macro mechanics. Instead the races can get other kinds of base management abilities.
For example:
Upgraded Nexus - Rift, Ability that speeds up Cannons, some kind of shield battery?
Orbital Command - Scan, Calldown Supply? (Gives +2 supply, 100 life on the supply depot, 25 energy cost)
Queen - Spread Creep, Transfuse, something more?
I will have it uploaded nevertheless on a test map tomorrow. Maybe it feels fine. This is just a concern I wanted to share.
Thoughts on this?
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On October 22 2013 03:45 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2013 02:34 SolidSMD wrote:
I actually think johnny's idea is pretty ok. This kills aggressive warp-ins, reactionary (defensive) warp-ins and this means earlier warpgates will screw less with early/midgame bw balance (because early warpgates like in sc2 make for a jump in production, while units would pop out at the end of a production cycle, they now pop at the beginning).
Though they will still be useful and feel unique.
This will allow them to come into play earlier than it currently is (and allowing them to warp in every unit instead of only a few). I think this idea is usually suggested in the context of having protoss start out with warpgate. There would be a host of drawbacks to the ability compared to the current balance, with an upgrade in the late game to negate some of them. After all, the current warpgate is not necessary to have in the early game since the only reason to spread out at that point is to attack your opponent, i.e. it promotes all-in play. In late game it's nice to have the ability to defend or attack multiple locations. Warpgate discussion has probably been done to death though. :o
I was actually thinking about the same 50/50 research on cyber core as in sc2.
Offensively this gives the opponent a lot of time to snipe the warping units or the pylon(s), so not promoting all-in attacks if you ask me.
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@Kabel
The production speed is likely already higher in Starbow compared to Brood War because of the more powerful interface. By the way, let's say that production speed was infinite (instant), the main two changes would be faster saturation and no need to build more than one of each type of production facility. i.e. all races would play like zerg. You could increase worker build time by 3-4 seconds to offset most of this I think.
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I think a 10% increase in build times across the board is probably the best option. We should aim for BW speed after taking into effect macro mechanics, not before. otherwise the entire thing is pointless.
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when is testmap up?
iam curious whats in store
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If I get home in time, and manages to fix some remaning things in the editor, I might have it uploaded tonight. Otherwise tomorrow.
Did everyrace start with their productionbooster in this test?
Or else, toss and terran lose two workers while zerg dont lose any
One more thing. The first hatch starts with 3larva, you know this ofcourse.
The first expansion starts with 1larva, but here zerg usually makes more hatcheries.
Hmm just some thoughts.
Sorry, I missed this.
I have measured the time it takes to produce units and workers with AND without macro mechanics.
(So they can be compared.)
It means that I have tested with macro mechanics already upgraded and with correct starting energy.
As you point out, in a real game there is 1-2 workers lost in production for P and T when upgrading.
There are also some other factors to consider in a real game, that I have not been able to test properly alone in the editor. (Build order importance, how strong is fast expansions, how much does macro mechanics matter in the late game, which race gains the fastest benefit from the macro mechanics etc.)
So I am eager to see this being tried in a real game.
But in pure numbers - each race have the same potential to boost army and worker production by almost 50% IF they use macro mechanics constantly. (And it is almost twice as APM demanding as in SC2. Ofc that might still be too easy.. but again, it depends on how high we want the macro skill cap to be. And how fun it is for the game.)
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I am very up for casting games tonight (I have some time) if someone wanna come online and play!
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Is everyone in a different channel on EU, or am I just getting on too late?
I would like to see how ZvP turned out
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EPT
