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Protoss core units
So let's try to figure out what it is we want to see in the new units. In PvT the new core unit should IMO make it possible for protoss to fight straight up against bio. In PvZ, it would be nice if we could add a bit more build order diversification - So it isn't just about Forge first --> rush to Storm builds. Vs mech, I believe the main benefit of an extra core unit is simply more flavour.
If we constrain our self to not changing the BW core stats, then its gonna be tough to obtain these desired gameplay changes. Its possibly that something like Stalker + Dragoon + Immortal at Robo could work (as I suggested a couple of pages ago), but the Stalker apparently isn't very easy to get "right". Further, it really doesn't make any logical sense that we use this constraint. Just by adding a new core unit, we are changing balance, so the idea that we can "keep on to BW balance" by not changing the stats of the BW units doesn't make sense. Thus, I won't use this constraint for my suggested solution.
Instead, I propose that we fix the problems with a combination of changes to all the core units. E.g. a movementspeed buff to the slowzealot will help protoss early game as this unit is almost useless before legspeed is out.
If we add the Immortal as a strong buffer unit, then we face a problem where it doesn't really have a clear role as the current Dragoon is already pretty tanky in it self. Thus, it is required that we reduce the HP of the Dragoon and compensate it by a higher damage/cost ratio.
Suggested stats
- Movement-Zealot increased from 2.25 to 2.8 (not sure exactly how fast it should be. but currently it is so slow that it is basically useless)
- Dragoon cost reduced from 125/50 to 100/50
- Dragoon HP reduced from 100/80 to 100/35. BT reduced as well
- Immortal added at Robo.
+ Show Spoiler +
- Immortal has flat damage of 22.
- Immortal has HP of 150/150
- 4 range.
- Movement speed of 2.5 (before any modifiers).
- Armored
- 2 armor.
- Cost 150/75.
- BT: 40 seconds.
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- Cost of Robo tech reduced from 200/200 to 150/150. BT reduced as well.
Math
+ Show Spoiler +Assuming that protoss today in a typical situation will get a unit composition consisting of 16 Dragoons and 10 Zealots (cost of 2100/800), we can compare it to this unit composition: 10 Dragoons, 10 zealots and 5 Immortals (cost of 1975/875).
In the latter composition the combined HP of Dragoons + Immortals = 1750/1140
For the former composition the HP of the Dragoons = 1600/1280
In terms of DPS (assuming Immortals + Dragoons have similar attack speed);
The 16 Dragoons have damage vs armored of: 320. Vs medium: 240. Vs light: 160.
The 5 Immortals + 10 Dragoons have damage vs armored of: 310. Vs Medium: 260 and vs light: 210.
So generally, the Immortals + Dragoons have higher DPS. But ofc the lower range + slower movement speed of the Immortal is a significant disadvantage.
However, these comparisons assumes that it is random which unit dies first in the battle. But typically, the Dragoon will die later than the Immortals, which means that the effective "Group DPS" is actually higher with Dragoon + Immortal.
Overall, Protoss is slightly better vs mech in a straight up fight, but a bit less mobile.
Vs. Bio/Hydra's protoss will be a lot stronger without AOE.
Effect on gameplay
- Pure Dragoon early game is now a lot worse. But mixing in slow-Zealots is suddenly viable. Having buffer-units in front of the Dragoon is further rewarded as its damage per cost is increased. This should hopefully be enough to make zealot + Dragoon viable early game vs Zerg so you dont have to rely on Forge first into HT.
- Immortal will help in a lot of ways. It is very good vs pure Hydralisks. Thus, before Roaches are out (assuming they are lair-tech), zerg is rewarded for mixing Speedlings with Hydralisks.
Vs bio it is obviously extremely efficienct vs Marines. On the other hand it is quite weak vs Maurauders. Thus in that way Immortal and Zealot has reverse roles.
Vs Mech you will need it to protect your Dragoons in the back as Siege Tanks 2-shot them. Immortals can take 5 shots from Tanks + they are also decent at soaking up Vulture Shots + they deal nice damage to Vultures. However, if you get too many of them, your very vulnerable to Vulture harass as Immortals are quite immobile. Thus, we effectively avoid any type of hardcounter dynamic by giving the Immortal a clear weakness in terms of range + movement speed.
Concerns
Its a big nerf to the Dragoon HP and I am not certain that the slow-zealot buff + lower cost of the Dragoon is enough to completely compensate for it. But I chose to reduce its HP so that tanks would be able to 2-shot it. Had I used a different value, for instance, 100/50, then protoss would be buffed against mech. Since I am trying to obtain the same balance (but in a different way), I figured that Dragoons needed an HP nerf. If the nerf is too severe, then I consider we try to increase its DPS further by increasing its attack speed.
Bio is probably unviable if this change goes through and no nerfs happens to Storm + Reaver. Thus, I suggest small nerfs to those as well.
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Dont know what a buff to slowzealots will accomplish here.
Speedhydra still melt them.
Robotic costs 200/200 right now.
Changing the dragoon is very hard, with your change he will die to 2shots from siegetanks and probably lose against amoved unsieged tanks.
I know of a unit at robotic that will fix both problems, and at the same time he is unique in his attack.
Good versus mech, and good versus bio units.
Its my hybrid destroyer model, the model could obviously be changed. Copy from a fanmade which kabel was into.
Here is my suggestion for this unit:
Mechanical only spell:
10 explosive damage,
Bounces three times for-> 150/200/250%, cant bounce on hover units
range 8
Biological only spell:
A spell that bounces up to 4targets, do no damage but makes protoss unit do more damage for 5seconds->
6 on light
8 on medium
10 on armored
range 7
cant bounce on burrowed units
Armored
Builds at robotic, 100/150/2 45BT,
60hp 120shield -same total hp as dragoon. Movement speed, 2.7 (0.25 less than dragoon)
requires robotic tech support to upgrade so his mana regenerates very fast, can cast a spell every 2-3seconds
If the unit is very good against mechanical, a possible solution can be to nerf statis from arbiter
Kabel, you think this is to much? Any thoughts?
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Speedhydra still melt them.
Doesn't that depend on the exact movement speed that slowzealots will receive? I am pretty sure there is a number where slow-zealots will be pretty balanced vs speed-Hydras. This obviously requires some editor-testing.
I think the main solution needs to come from gateway. Robo tech at 200/200 is obviously way too expensive in order for protoss to use that tech pattern to rely on it for early game purpose. But even if we change cost from to 150/150 as I suggest, then there will still be hydra timings that can come before you get the Robo-unit --> You still need forge early game as protoss. Thus, I suggest we use a combo of stronger gateway units early game (aka zealotbuff) + Straight-up Robo tier 2 unit + slightly easier asses to robo tech.
So protoss here gets buffed in 3 ways early game in order to buff it vs bio and Hydra pushes.
Changing the dragoon is very hard, with your change he will die to 2shots from siegetanks and probably lose against amoved unsieged tanks.
I discussed this in my concern-part. But it needs to be 2-shotted if we give protoss an extra unit that is good vs mech. The intention here is that you then mix in Immortals to buffer vs Siege-tanks. So if we want to give protoss an extra unit vs mech that adds flavour to the matchup, then Dragoon needs to be either directly or indirectly nerfed in some way.
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slowzealots runs in 2.25, with 0.4 buff they run in 2.65.
Speedhydras run in 3.13~
They kite them to death
If zerg gets a hard time to fight, he will simple camp, wait for big economy go huge macro with many hatcheries
which is meta now in pvz bw
I discussed this in my concern-part. But it needs to be 2-shotted if we give protoss an extra unit that is good vs mech.
No it dont, cuz if we change dragoon like this protoss will suck against terran mech, period.
We cant change dragoon like this just because protoss gets a new unit on robotic. Protoss cant afford to even make many robotics
Yes you did, but i send the message before i updated the page and i wrote that arbiter statis can be nerfed if the new unit is good/works well at robotic vs mech
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No it dont, cuz if we change dragoon like this protoss will suck against terran mech, period
Why are you so sure of that? Immortal is intended here to Draw tank-shots. As I see it, if protoss isn't nerfed in some way, then mech will be a lot worse if we add a strong straight-up protoss unit. But yeh, thinking about, the Immortal isn't strong enough vs Tanks with this suggestion. It should probably be slightly more expensive and 5-shotted instead by Tanks.
Speedhydras run in 3.13~They kite them to death
Probably, but as I wrote, I think its mainly a matter of tweaking stats in the Editor here.
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Because he comes from robotic
Dragoon nerfed quite heavy against tanks and vultures
Protoss need to make many dragoons in opening into midgame.
Same principle as before when immortal was at robotic and stalker at gateway
They lose the macro haaaard. You agreed on this and now you do the same thing again.
Protoss will most likely die in the opening or early midgame against good macro terran
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Because he comes from robotic
I assume that you then imply that you can't get enough out of them since they come from an expensive tech structure. However, I think can easily solveable by tweaking variables such as;
- Bt of Robo
- Cost of Robo
- BT of Immortal.
It will ofc change the meta a bit, so rather than having like 7 gateways and 1 robo at time X, you will now have 5 gateways and 2 Robo's instead.
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Probably, but as I wrote, I think its mainly a matter of tweaking stats in the Editor here.
If i were leaddesigner with plenty of time i would look into stuff like the zergling. Reduce his movementspeed, high his hp, reduce his damage 10-20%.
Making it more of a micro unit rather than outnumber unit
Look at other unit relationships also. Make zerg able to fight bioterran without defiler and stuff
But kabel dont wanna do this and i understand that completely.
Changing core units takes so much time and effort
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Current topic is macro mechanics and warp gate. How do it feel now. Let's not go off topic.
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On October 25 2013 21:17 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +
Probably, but as I wrote, I think its mainly a matter of tweaking stats in the Editor here.
If i were leaddesigner with plenty of time i would look into stuff like the zergling. Reduce his movementspeed, high his hp, reduce his damage 10-20%. Making it more of a micro unit rather than outnumber unit Look at other unit relationships also. Make zerg able to fight bioterran without defiler and stuff But kabel dont wanna do this and i understand that completely. Changing core units takes so much time and effort
Not sure I completely agree here given the context. Do you imply that your new robo unit will be easier to implement/get right than tweaking the Dragoon/zealot?
Or do you imply that the benefit to gameplay/time spent on it is higher with your suggested robo unit?
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Just by adding a new core unit, we are changing balance, so the idea that we can "keep on to BW balance" by not changing the stats of the BW units doesn't make sense. Thus, I won't use this constraint for my suggested solution.
Everything new that is added to the game will indeed affect balance.
It is unavoidable if we want to get something more than just a BW-copy.
But different things have different effects on the game play.
For example, this affects the game a lot more:
- Give new stats to Zealot, Dragoon, add two new Protoss core units. Change stats of Hydra + Zergling + Mutalisk, give 1 new Zerg core unit.
Compared to if we do something like this:
- Add 1 new unit to Robotic facility. Add 1 new Zerg unit at Lair tech.
Of course units like that need to fill a role, fit in, have a purpose and be meaningful, without the need of changing something else. Difficult? Indeed. In fact, both "methods" are difficult.
Right now will I not add anything new to the game. But I might be open for the possibility to try stuff in the test map later on. Right now the content we have in the game is kinda complete. All units, abilities and spells kinda work and fit, and nothing is too crazy yet. Just need to fix some of it. This does ofc not prevent anyone from coming with ideas.
If i were leaddesigner with plenty of time i would look into stuff like the zergling. Reduce his movementspeed, high his hp, reduce his damage 10-20%.
Making it more of a micro unit rather than outnumber unit
I actually did this over a year ago.
You should have seen all angry PMs I got.. ^^
Some players refused to even play Zerg!
(Just as you did yesterday because you got angry at the Scourge micro... he he he he)
I now try to keep my fingers away as much as possible from touching basic classic Starcraft units. (At least change them so they lose their feelings/strengths/relationships/identity.) But I am a slow learner..
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wow, big discussion. No way we can speed up slow-zealots without messing with PvZ early game. Zerg are already having a very hard time holding off 2 gate because of chrono.
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On October 25 2013 22:44 Kabel wrote:Show nested quote +Just by adding a new core unit, we are changing balance, so the idea that we can "keep on to BW balance" by not changing the stats of the BW units doesn't make sense. Thus, I won't use this constraint for my suggested solution. Everything new that is added to the game will indeed affect balance. It is unavoidable if we want to get something more than just a BW-copy. But different things have different effects on the game play. Of course units like that need to fill a role, fit in, have a purpose and be meaningful, without the need of changing something else. Difficult? Indeed. In fact, both "methods" are difficult. Right now will I not add anything new to the game. But I might be open for the possibility to try stuff in the test map later on. Right now the content we have in the game is kinda complete. All units, abilities and spells kinda work and fit, and nothing is too crazy yet. Just need to fix some of it. This does ofc not prevent anyone from coming with ideas. Show nested quote +
If i were leaddesigner with plenty of time i would look into stuff like the zergling. Reduce his movementspeed, high his hp, reduce his damage 10-20%.
Making it more of a micro unit rather than outnumber unit
I actually did this over a year ago. You should have seen all angry PMs I got.. ^^ Some players refused to even play Zerg! (Just as you did yesterday because you got angry at the Scourge micro... he he he he) I now try to keep my fingers away as much as possible from touching basic classic Starcraft units. (At least change them so they lose their feelings/strengths/relationships.) But I am a slow learner..
A robo unit also has less impact on affecting gameplay dynamics in the desired way though. Ofc if one is satifised with the BW PvZ early game dynamic, then a new robo unit is all we need. However, I suggested that we also buff slowzealots to make speedhydras a bit less deadly.
But let's assume a new Robo unit. I see some problems related to the implementation;
- As I see it, Dragoon have too much HP atm. to open up for a buffy Immortal role. Thus unless we reduce HP of the Dragoon, the new robo unit needs to be a high DPS'er vs bio units/Hydralisks.
- Won't it just overlap/dominate Storm/Reaver or just becomes too efficiency as an a-move unit?
- If the new robo unit also Works vs mech, shouldn't mech be compensated in some ways? Since we can't just core BW units (such as Tanks, Vultures, Goliaths), this implies that mech should also get a new unit? Or is the intention here that we give buff protoss in straight up battles vs mech while nerfing Stasis for example?
- Are we even sure that we can design a new Robo unit in a way that fulfills these constraints; A) Usefull vs mech. B) Strong vs Bio/Hydralisks C) Not a buffy low range low mobility unit, at the same time? If it is good vs Hydralisks and bio, then it will probably be bad vs Tanks, which Means that you likely won't get it vs mech?
- Shouldn't we also reduce the acessiblity for robo tech if protoss are too rely on a new unit?
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On October 25 2013 23:04 Xiphias wrote:
wow, big discussion. No way we can speed up slow-zealots without messing with PvZ early game. Zerg are already having a very hard time holding off 2 gate because of chrono.
2 gate with nexus upgrade? Sounds extremely inefficient. I think your referring to the prenexus change. Today, I think 2-gate is alot worse than in BW as zerg still can get Queens to deal with them.
Right now the content we have in the game is kinda complete. All units, abilities and spells kinda work and fit, and nothing is too crazy yet
Yes we bascially copied BW, and thus most of the stuff works. But honestly I am not interested in playing a game that is 90%+ BW.
Obviously we can't change everything, but IMO it is about picking battles. Only fix the stuff where BW isn't working very well such as;
- Bio vs protoss
- Valkyrie --> Vikings
- Protoss early game vs zerg
- Scouts
- Give new stats to Zealot, Dragoon, add two new Protoss core units. Change stats of Hydra + Zergling + Mutalisk, give 1 new Zerg core unit.
A bit confused about that example? I only suggested to change the zealot and dragoon + Immortal.
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Hider
About FFE in pvz
There are stuff that can be changed without breaking stuff
Like buffing archon so he is better against mutas
Give templar a scouting ability like a tweakd halluspell
My new robo unit, will give flavor for dragoons. Make them shoot better vs lings,hydras,mutas with that unit in the mix.
If you go fast expansion with fast robo and dragoons. You get a scout with obeerver and still firepower behind dragoons and that new unit
There are plenty of stuff that can work here without touching any core units, well archon is a core unit in pvz but its still not close to what the zealot or dragoon do. Even the new macro mechanics that were added yesterday gives flavor for agression at least for now. We see when things settle ofcourse more if it is more effective to go pure def with heavy worker boost.
The new sentinel you know? That new spell could maybe change things.
I dont think anyone want to resemble the bw meta. I despise it quite a bit, especially the first 10min of every game in bw.
No action, only economy and tech.
wow, big discussion. No way we can speed up slow-zealots without messing with PvZ early game. Zerg are already having a very hard time holding off 2 gate because of chrono
A very hard time? Because you died, and the matches you observed, the zerg died?
Not enough for that statement. When i played solid he didnt die.
Dont know the argument here anyway. Queen inject is buffed to. They equal in macro. Why would protoss suddenly get it easy here?
Iactually did this over a year ago.
You should have seen all angry PMs I got.. ^^
Some players refused to even play Zerg!
(Just as you did yesterday because you got angry at the Scourge micro... he he he he)
Yes because the scourges were rly bad against corsairs.
This change you did were one year ago where starbow were a mess. I think it would be really different to try it now with this attacksystem and other balanced relationships.
You didnt comment on my robo unit, you despised it or you thought it was decent? Any change to see it in testmap?
Iam not saying you should try this zergling suggestion, iam just saying
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About FFE in pvz
Won't you just die to Hydra pushes if you dont get an early forge?
Assuming we gave nexus Hallucination, would you be able to go 1 gate expand into nexus upgrade into Hallucination scout and have time to react to counter the push?
What about combining the Hallucination thing with slowlot movement speed upgrade. Wouldn't the combo of those two things help a bit?
This change you did were one year ago where starbow were a mess. I think it would be really different to try it now with this attacksystem and other balanced relationships.
You didnt comment on my robo unit, you despised it or you thought it was decent? Any change to see it in testmap?
Agree with this. I also wouldn't mind speedlings to be reworked a bit to add more micro (not that high priority though).
Yes because the scourges were rly bad against corsairs.
Has anyone figured out what is causing this?
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Foxxan - I look at your suggested unit and I can see interesting Things about it. But it is as an "outsider" always a bit difficult to see how you imagine it.
Would you mind discussing how you expect it to be used in various situations. How it will synergixe with other units, and how you expect it to be balanced?
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Here is a new suggestion, i hope you write stuff down somewhere if u find any interest in them kabel.
Shield battery for protoss.
Make it much smaller, like really small. 50% of a cannon atleast, maybe even smaller than that. To give more synergy with dragoons/archon since they are so big for defence.
Remove the stun when it heals shield on a unit. <- Maybe even not necessarily
Reduce cost, total hp, and totalmana by 50%, still give 2shield every mana.
Won't you just die to Hydra pushes if you dont get an early forge?
Assuming we gave nexus Hallucination, would you be able to go 1 gate expand into nexus upgrade into Hallucination scout and have time to react to counter the push?
Protoss can open 1gate nexus here in this engine cuz toss can wall against lings here much easier. Not 100% tested if its viable but i think it is
Hallucination on nexus, yes probably could work. See no reason not to.
Also if zerg opens heavy hydrabust, i think he gets behind against good toss(?) Dunno.
There are some tactics that could work here in starbow with tweaks that didnt work in bw.
Right now, i think toss needs cannons against hydrapush sooner or later.
But if toss goes FFE he needs to add like 6cannons.
If he opens different i think he dont need as much cannons
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Yes hider i can try to give my picture of it.
I need some time cuz i get so stressed easy
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EPT
