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On June 15 2013 08:16 Sumadin wrote:
If we want to talk about the immortal, i had an idea awhile ago for hardened shield.
Rather than only being able to take 10 direct shield damage per shot, it would only be able to take direct shield damage once per second.
It creates some intresting scenarios in how it scales with numbers... or rather how it totally doesn't.
A single immortal would survive roughly as long vs 10 marines as vs 20 marines. But 2 would last roughly the same time. And you probably don't want to get too close to siege tanks with these, your normal A-moving won't work here.
Something to think about.
I like this, it rewards carrying immortals in medivacs. There are some issues with this, but I really like the idea. However, what is going to be done against mm. Immortals will just not die to mm. (necessitating emp?). The micro against immortals is to focus fire other things and aim 1-2 tanks on each immortal. The protoss player can try and time attacks to take negate the direct damage.
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On June 15 2013 09:59 Chronopolis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 08:16 Sumadin wrote:
If we want to talk about the immortal, i had an idea awhile ago for hardened shield.
Rather than only being able to take 10 direct shield damage per shot, it would only be able to take direct shield damage once per second.
It creates some intresting scenarios in how it scales with numbers... or rather how it totally doesn't.
A single immortal would survive roughly as long vs 10 marines as vs 20 marines. But 2 would last roughly the same time. And you probably don't want to get too close to siege tanks with these, your normal A-moving won't work here.
Something to think about. I like this, it rewards carrying immortals in medivacs. There are some issues with this, but I really like the idea. However, what is going to be done against mm. Immortals will just not die to mm. (necessitating emp?). The micro against immortals is to focus fire other things and aim 1-2 tanks on each immortal. The protoss player can try and time attacks to take negate the direct damage.
I don't think its goanna work. The reward simply isn't big enough for players to pick up immortals in warp prism and place them down after 1 second (similar concept if you kite with them) in relation to the effortit requires. It will be a unit you can micro early game, but mid-late game you'll just a-move it.
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On June 15 2013 09:59 Chronopolis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 08:16 Sumadin wrote:
If we want to talk about the immortal, i had an idea awhile ago for hardened shield.
Rather than only being able to take 10 direct shield damage per shot, it would only be able to take direct shield damage once per second.
It creates some intresting scenarios in how it scales with numbers... or rather how it totally doesn't.
A single immortal would survive roughly as long vs 10 marines as vs 20 marines. But 2 would last roughly the same time. And you probably don't want to get too close to siege tanks with these, your normal A-moving won't work here.
Something to think about. "...it rewards carrying immortals in medivacs."
Welp. Switching to Protoss forever, was fun playing Zerg & T though. :D
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[B]On June 15 2013 04:32 Kabel wrote:
@December
The Zealot is not incredible effective. It becomes so when Charge is researched. Protoss can do fine in PvP and PvT with just Stalkers in the early parts of the game - they stop everything the enemy can bring. A Zealot is often just a waste of money. An early Zealot can barely even hurt an enemy Stalker, Reaper, Marine or Vulture.
There will just be a small balance adjustement for this, to make the Zealot become a bit more useful early. I wish I could release the patch today ;'-(
It is true that zealots do not fair well in PvT and PvP, but the problem is that zealots are very effective in PvZ (imo). I've played both races and I'm always surprised at how many units they can take on before they die. Evene without speed, and even vs microed hydras with speed. I'm a bit worried for zerg if they get +20 hp, but if some general things are changed for zerg as well, then it might work out. But then ZvT might be.....
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On June 15 2013 15:45 Xiphias wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On June 15 2013 04:32 Kabel wrote:
@December
The Zealot is not incredible effective. It becomes so when Charge is researched. Protoss can do fine in PvP and PvT with just Stalkers in the early parts of the game - they stop everything the enemy can bring. A Zealot is often just a waste of money. An early Zealot can barely even hurt an enemy Stalker, Reaper, Marine or Vulture.
There will just be a small balance adjustement for this, to make the Zealot become a bit more useful early. I wish I could release the patch today ;'-(
It is true that zealots do not fair well in PvT and PvP, but the problem is that zealots are very effective in PvZ (imo). I've played both races and I'm always surprised at how many units they can take on before they die. Evene without speed, and even vs microed hydras with speed. I'm a bit worried for zerg if they get +20 hp, but if some general things are changed for zerg as well, then it might work out. But then ZvT might be.....
Zerg will receive a compensation buff of course.
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Immortals
20 (+10 vs armored)
Whenever the Immortal's shield is still up when struck by a blow (splash or no splash) that deals more than 10 damage, it activates Hardened Shield for two seconds. Hardened Shield reduces damage to 10, and also adds 3 shield armor to the immortal.
In theory, increasing the shield pool of the immortal would give both sides incentive to micro. Normally protoss wants to trigger the shield using a friendly stalker. Zealots will not normally trigger the shield.
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If stalkers durability is nerfed then do we really need to buff zealots that much? Let's not force toss players to build zealots. They are already great meatshields for their cost. Maybe +10 shields is gonna be enough, and will force players to use something beside zealot / stalker.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
Ohoho, as i remember stalkers were core of the coriest units for protoss, so i assum u rebalanced whole toss core tech :O
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Announcement
The new large patch will be uploaded tomorrow at 18.00 CET. Some new maps will be uploaded too. I will post a presentation of the patch tomorrow in this thread, right before it is uploaded.
Let me just clearify some things:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +The goal of this patch is to complete the design of all units, spells and other elements in Starbow.
This means that "unfinished" units like the Ghost, BC, Nullifier, Devourer, Zerg casters etc are now completed - They have a function in the game, and they aim to improve the gameplay further.
This does NOT mean that Starbow itself is completed. Further patches with balance adjustements and other modifications will surely be needed, to improve the game even more. This patch will hopefully complete the "foundation" for Starbow.
---
When I have created and designed this patch, I have used ideas both from my head and from your heads, that I think will have potential to make Starbow an even better, more fun and a more exciting game. (Both for players and for viewers.)
We all have different views on how Starbow should be, and on what makes the game good and fun. This patch is just the road I have chosen for the game. Maybe some of you will like it. Others will not. But hopefully many of you will continue to play, enjoy, discuss, suggest solutions and help me improve Starbow even more.
The future:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +What is the plan now? 1. Play the patch as much as possible for ca a week! We must try to break the game. Find flaws. Find improvements. 2. Release a new patch with bug fixes and other needed changes. 3. Fix a ranking system? 4. Start to advertise to increase the player pool! <-- YIPPIEEEEEE!!! IF this patch turns out to be ok enough, it really is time to find more players. Some of us are working on an "advertisement-plan" to get more exposure and attract more players to try Starbow. But more about that later. First we must try the patch! I hope to see you online tomorrow at 18.00 CET on EU 
Ps.
>>>+ Show Spoiler +I want to make a shoutout to Kueken531 at Sc2mapster.com. Tonight he gave me a much needed helping hand with some advanced stuff in the editor. Thank you Kueken!
And of course, thank you to all of you who still continues to support this project! <3
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On June 16 2013 10:23 Fen1kz wrote:
Ohoho, as i remember stalkers were core of the coriest units for protoss, so i assum u rebalanced whole toss core tech :O
There will be very few pure balance changes in this patch. The balance will of course be affected due to some new spells and units in the game. So another patch will need to be released later on with some balance adjustements.
But most of the content in the game will remain as it is.
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New patch, new map. I've been working for a while around the idea of making a map where the mains are close by air, but far by ground. It has been difficult to make something that can work for the current Starbow, but I've think I've found something that can work. This is a shameless rework of deseret oasis, but don't be fooled by similar looks, they should play out quite differently.
I hereby present: Starbow Canyon:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fYgGXWL.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IhPVSjQ.jpg)
Some explanation. I wanted easier to take nat and third than original oasis and I've got that. They may look too easy, but remember the back path. It is destructible rock and should not be replaced with anything else. The reason for this is to make it more difficult to keep expanding right. Regenerative minerals are easy to open for friendly player, but hard for enemies, rocks are almost equally difficult for both. I want it to be fairly easy for opponent to open the back entrance while there is a clear "main road". It might be too easy to defend 4-5 bases on this map. I hope it won't become a new "Xiphias Pass"
Stats: 156 x 160 (playable)
Distance from main to nat: 227 (ground)
Distance from main to main 80 (air)
So the rush distance is VERY long by ground. It is also impossible to blink into main base from middle part of the map (I've made sure the canyons are wide enough)
Thoughts?
PS: The middle thing is NOT a xel'naga watch tower, just a doodad.
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Two hours until the patch is live O_o
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On June 17 2013 23:01 Kabel wrote:
Two hours until the patch is live O_o
Can't wait. You've done a good job of generating suspense.
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and I'll do a quick update to Starbow unit tester
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I am writing the last words in the patch presentation.
Soon I will start to upload everything to B.net.
Be prepared.
The patch notes will be up any minute now.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ogn5OJY.jpg)
I will now present the patch!
I will keep the text short and clean.
I can not explain every detail, every why and every thought.
That would just bore you all to death.
The true test will be ingame: Will this work? Will this be fun? Will this make sense?
Here we go:
Protoss
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VulnRLf.jpg) Details over the Protoss changes:Sentinel:+ Show Spoiler +Nullifier is renamed into Sentinel. It is built from the Robotic facility. Costs 125/100 and uses 3 supply. It is a flying unit. It has no attack. It has three spells and one passive ability.
Serenity: + Show Spoiler +When the Sentinel stands still for seven seconds, it becomes cloaked. As soon as it moves, it is visible again. It is a passive ability.
Rupture+ Show Spoiler +Launch a straight line of psionic energy. ANY unit hit by it loses 20% of its current life, and attack and movement speed is reduced by 75% for 5 seconds. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nyvPiCM.jpg)
Null ward+ Show Spoiler +Place a flying and cloaked Null ward at target location. It last 2 minutes. When at least one enemy unit comes near it, it will transform into a null field for 15 seconds. Enemy near the null field will lose 4% of their current life per second and are slowed by 25% ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kY9PGDI.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mUkHjr5.jpg) Channel a protective barrier at target location for 20 seconds. All friendly units inside of it becomes invulnerable... (Unless they are target fired... hehehehe) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/A5jKMbs.jpg) The Sentinel is not able to kill anything in itself. Instead if offers a great versatility in its abilities. It can be a harasser, a trap, a map control unit, support the main army, used for defence etc.
- Rupture can be used both in combat and out of combat to hurt the enemy army. The better position the Sentinel gets into when it launches Rupture, the better will the effect be.
- Null ward can be used to take map control, defend important locations, harass the enemy base or punish enemy armies moving across the map tightly clumped.
- Safeguard protects the Protoss ground army, especially useful when trying to break siege lines and other heavily defended areas. Maybe can this contribute to add more aggression to the game.
- The cloak ability allows the Sentinel to set up ambushes. When the enemy come close, launch Rupture to drain life and then back away.
- I made both spells deal a % of damage because otherwise the Sentinel was an insane harassment unit. It could just fly into the enemy mineral line and Rupture and Null Ward the enemy workers to death easy peacy. Now they can damage the workers greatly, but they still need assistance of another unit to "finish" the job. Just as Zerg does with Plague...
A % reduction also makes them stronger vs tougher units. Protoss already has Storm + Archons to deal with fragile units.
Of course the numbers I have added to the spells is just an assumption. They will surely need to be modified and rebalanced some more.
It is the highest tech unit in the game. And the most expensive. Yet it does not feel so powerful. So I have pimped it a little bit.
- Stronger normal attack that now deal small splash damage.
- Recall as usual.
- Stasis field as usual.
- Cloak aura affects a smaller area. (Not as easy to cover the entire deathball.)
- Cloak aura ALSO doubles the shield armor of all units nearby!
Why?
Arbiter has mainly been useful in PvT due to Stasis Field. But it is quite useless vs Zerg.
Recall is not as important in Starbow due to Blink + Warp in.
By doubling the shield armor, it becomes much better vs low tech units. Low dmg units like Marines, Zerglings, Hydras, and even basic Protoss units, will be weaker vs a army with Arbiter support. This also gives another reason for the Shield upgrade to be researched.
Charge is now an activated ability that greatly boosts the Zealot speed for 4 seconds. Cooldown 8 seconds. Why?
+ Show Spoiler +The goal of this change is to make Zealot vs Marines, Zealot vs Hydras, Zealot vs Stalkers relationship more dynamic and interesting. The overall strong Zealots now gain a weakness and a strength in combats, depending on how players use them. Hopefully it will lead to a little bit more interesting combats.
But if this sucks hard in game I will revert Charge to just give a normal flat speed bonus.
Zerg
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zaELwfL.jpg) Details over the Zerg changes:Zerg casters+ Show Spoiler +I brought back the classic Defiler into the game. After all, it is a well designed unit and Dark Swarm + Plague fit very well onto it. It requires Defiler mound at Hive tech. Lets look at the Viper: + Show Spoiler +It has four spells and requires Viper Nest at Lair tech.
Ensnare - Affected units at target area are slowed by 10% for 3 seconds, then 20% for 3 seconds etc until 50% for 3 seconds. Total duration 15 sec. (Similar to the old Fungal Growth in the game, except the effect now happens over time.)
Abduct - As in SC2. Consume building - As in SC2. Breed - Launch a missile at target area. An egg is spawned there. After 20 seconds the egg will hatch and spawn a Creeper that lasts 40 seconds. - Costs 50 energy per egg. - Requires an upgrade. - The egg missile has short range so it is hard to just spam it on top of the enemy army/defences, without putting the Viper in danger. - The egg has a relatively long spawn time, 20 sec, again to make it hard to just cast it on top of the enemy or flood the enemy base. - The creeper has high HP, is clumpsy and has a short ranged splash attack. It makes it quite bad in tight areas, or when too many of them are in the same place. Stronger in open terrain though. Due to the splash attack, even a few ones can deal damage vs a larger army. Even a few ones can kill some workers. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qs7j3WX.jpg) >>> Why? <<< + Show Spoiler +The Viper now has a pre-combat / combat ability with Ensnare. Just mass casting it on top of the enemy army, and then A-move with your own army, is not always the best. Since the Viper is flying, Ensnare can become useful in air combats too. Abduct gives it a combat snipe spell. It is useful in combination with other units. It can also be used to save your own Lurkers etc. Breed gives the Viper a reason to move away from the army. It can be used both to harass, but also to supplement the army. The long egg spawn time makes it more of a precombat spell where position matters. It gives the enemy player an opporunity for counter action. (Attack the eggs before they hatch.) Consume brings another reason for the Viper to leave the deathball: go home and recharge energy. More on Breed: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=295#5887EVEN MORE ON BREED: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=295#5893It has a new ability called Contaminate. It targets an area. Enemy units in that area takes 5 dmg per second. Armored units and structures take 10 dmg per second. Lasts 30 seconds. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/60r8Jm0.jpg)
Why?+ Show Spoiler +The Devourer get another usage besides just being an anti-air unit. (Just as Corsairs can lift up, Vikings can transform.) This allows the Devourer to "block" terrain, to harass enemy bases, to provide a safe area for Guardians, where the enemy ground units will not walk, etc.
Terran
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Q9yi36p.jpg) Details over the Terran changes:Bio:+ Show Spoiler +
- Reaper can now upgrade a splash attack. It costs 100/100 and takes 170 seconds to complete. (Just as Stimpack.)
Instead of shooting as normal, they attack by throwing bombs upon all targets. The bombs deal the same damage as their normal gun attack: 6 dmg vs all, 12 dmg vs light. They just deal splash damage now. (But they do NOT attack with a flamethrower!)
- Medic starts with a passive ability called Pacify. When standing still for at least 2 seconds, enemy units will not auto-attack it.
- The Firebat is removed.
Why?
I decided to remove the narrow and clunky Firebat. Instead I applied its traits onto the other bio units:
- Reapers can now take care of clumped units and fight under Dark Swarm via the splash damage upgrade
- Medic can make any unit become "tanky" by casting Matrix on it
- Medics can now block melee units, ramps etc via Pacify. Their position in combat matters more.
Hopefully this will make the Medic and the Reaper more useful. The Reaper for example is not only a narrow harassment unit, instead it actually serves a purpose in the army. But of course this will require more balance adjustments.
Ghost+ Show Spoiler +Ghost can Cloak, launch Nuke and use a new spell called Shock. Shock + Show Spoiler +Costs 25 energy to launch a projectile at any target. That targets attack and move speed will be slowed by 75% for 7 seconds. During this time it will slowly be faster again every 2 second until the buff ends. It can not use any abilities or spells during this time. If used on a sieged Siege tank or Warp Prism, they will unwarp and unsiege. Why?+ Show Spoiler +The Ghost is simply a disabler. It catches, disarms, disables and interrupts enemy units, so other Terran units can take care of them.
Instead of stunning the target, like Lockdown did, it will become greatly slowed. This allows room for enemy remicro.
The movement and attack speed is slowly increased again. This makes spamming it less efficent. If you have 5 Ghost with full energy, and launches 20 missiles at the enemy army, the first target will be fast again before the twenieth missile even has hit the target. So use them with precision!
By disarming sieged siege tanks, Terran get a new way to break siege lines in a sophisticated way. - Costs 75/75 instead of 100/100
- 20% faster calldown. (16 seconds instead of 20)
- Deals 20% less damage
- Affects a 20% smaller area.
This makes the Nuke easier to actually hit, but at the same time it is not as devestating. The normal nuke has a high risk - high gain. Now we see a medium risk and medium gain. Hopefully this will make Nukes more useful. Viking works in the normal SC2 way. It deals a flat dmg vs any target air unit.
(No extra bonus. Goliaths are better vs armored.)
They have a faster move speed now. This allows them to actually move out on the map without fearing being caught as easily as before! When upgraded, they deal splash damage vs enemy air units.
Vikins transformation is now more smooth.
They also have a bit better damage when in ground mode.
Viking is mainly an anti-air unit. It will not see play in every game. One problem in earlier Starbow was that there were no important enemy units the Viking could interact with.
Since both P and Z has a new Tier 2 flying spellcaster, and a flying Null Ward, the Viking might see more use as a way to chase and destroy them.
Banshee works as in normal Sc2. Strong vs ground. Moves faster now. When Cloak is activated it lasts 10 seconds. Quite short cooldown. (As Xiphias and December implemented.) It has a new ability called Warp Drive. It allows it to "jump" to target location nearby. Yamato gun has been reworked. When the missile hit a target, it continues to hit units in a line behind it. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5RKUy2W.jpg) It currently deals only 75 damage to a target and all targets behind it. Why?The BCs position now matters more. You want to get a good angle with the Yamato to maximize the damage output. Warp Drive helps them get into that position, while also providing some extra micro and manouverability to this slow and clunky A-move unit.
Balance changes for all races:
+ Show Spoiler +Almost all basic air units moves a bit faster. (Scout, Viking, Banshee, Warp Prism, etc)
Scourges are not insanely fast anymore.
- Zealot has +20 shields. (100 HP, 80 shield)
- Zealot now starts with move speed 2.5 instead of 2.25.
- Stalkers have -20 life. (80 HP, 80 Shield)
- Stalkers deal 1 less dmg. (11 vs light, 13 vs all, 15 vs armored.)
- Hydralisks start with speed 2.5 instead of 2.25.
- Zerg now generates a larva every 18 second instead of every 20 second.
- Inject larva increases larva spawn rate by 60% instead of 55%.
General effects I hope to reach in the game:
PvT:
Stalkers will be good vs Reapers, Vultures, Banshee.
Zealots will be stronger vs Marines and Tanks.
(Right now Stalkers couter all of that, atleast before Charge is researched.)
We will probably see Protoss mix Zealots + Stalkers early vs T, and NOT ONLY mass Stalkers vs everything.
PvP:
Zealots will be useful to tank damage from Stalkers, AND actually be able to deal damage since they are a bit faster.
Instead of just mass Stalkers vs mass Stalkers, Zealots will play a more important role before Charge si researched.
PvZ:
To compensate for the stronger Zealots in PvZ, Hydras are also a bit faster at the start. This will also help them to chase Reapers better, since Reapers will be stronger now at harassing with the splash dmg upgrade.
The faster larvas for Zerg will hopefully make them able to deal with the stronger Zealots and stronger Reapers early. At the same time, if Zerg is not harassed, they will probably be able to get a strong economy quite quickly... Hopefully this will help to create more incentives for early game harassment, atleast versus Zerg.
Of course more balance adjustements are needed in the future!
Some last thoughts:
+ Show Spoiler +
What I did NOT add to the game:
I considered to make Bio+Mech benefit from the same weapon upgrade at the E-bay, as an other way to make bio units more useful in TvT and TvP . And then have seperate armor upgrades at the E-bay.
I did not do any changes to static defence for the races.
I did not add the Immortal again.
I did not add the Nydus again.
I did not change the way Warp gate works. (One alternative was to make Warped in-units enter the battlefield with no shield.)
I did not add energy bonus upgrades to any spellcaster. (Like they start with 25 more energy.)
Maybe this will come in the future patches, if needed?
I will upload the patch now.
Thank you for reading.
Hope to see you online in the Starbow chat channel on EU.
(Or in a live stream)
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Overall an interesting patch.
One thing: Cloak for banshee is 10 sec now? It was 5 sec and it was getting to the point of being imba. Same speed and no dmg reduction?
I am a bit worried that faster vikings will shut down drop-harass....
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Cloak now requires a research and has a little bit longer cooldown. Banshee is not quite as fast as before. But of course if needed it can be adjusted.
The faster Viking is not faster than enemy Dropships/Warp Prism. Almost all basic air units got a small speed boost. They are currently quite near each other in terms of speed.
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Okey, nice!
I assume that anti-air attack for banshee is removed then. Happy Starbow! (I love throwing this meaningless word around...) I'll get online later tonight. Kids need to get to bed etc...
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EPT
