On March 04 2013 02:32 Zain3 wrote: why do you guys feel like we need a constant evolution of the game? i kinda feel like you just change something when it didnt work, or when the game goes in someones favour as it should becuase of whatever(your mistakes/his mistakes etc etc)
let it be and see how it evolve.. much more fun..
Keep up with the streaming guys.. always a nice time watching you play
Blizzard's approach: Make a bunch of random but "cool looking" units and hope everything will turn out just fine.
The approach I think is optimal: Define the desired "metagame" for each matchup, and try to design/balance each matchup, so that the desired metagame is obtained once the game gets figured out. There shouldn't be any phobia/fear of "overbuffing" units, because if one strategy turns out to be imbalanced it can always be patched. If the odds are that a certain strategy is imbalanced with 90% probability, then a patch is needed. We can always revert the change.
Im not sure if you read all my posts, but I think I explained in some of them why I believe Starbow needs changes to improve the gameplay, and why this is isn't just about "balance"/not making mistakes.
Secondly the only way for the metagame in Starbow to change is to have these kind of discussions/suggestions/feedback etc. and replay analysis's. There are simply no pro players to follow or any massive amount of data to analyze.
I've read a lot of the thread and seen the discussion but feel like i dont have anything to contribute. Im fine with playing as it is..
In the beginning there were some questions about the evolvement of the game if we changed stuff too fast.. now it just feels like you change something each week so if i dont play anything for a week something changed or got buffed/nerfed..
One way to improve Starbow is to try out new things and see how they work. I would not mind trying the matrix change (one of them...) and the sc2 stim. If someone with a bit on time on their hands can dig around this forum and find out why the sc2 stim was changed to what it is now, that would be great. (I think it was the sc2 stim in the very beginning and it was changed for some reason. Curious about that reason.)
On the other hand. We know that no new patch will come out in a little while since Kabel is having a "break" (not sure what to call it...) so we might as well accept this latest patch and try as many different strategies as possible with it and try to find good strategies to "imba" starts. Go brain!
I am not completely gone, even though I have a "break" from this project. I have focused on some life-stuff now that has kept me busy. I will most likely get HoTS and upload a new patch/update after it has been released. Maybe 2 weeks from now?
So I guess you all have to live with the current patch. You can of course continue to explore the game, identify balance/design concerns and discuss potential improvements for "Heart of the Starbow" ^^ @Stimpack
To keep my explanation short - I lowered the duration time from 15 seconds in SC2 to the current 9 seconds to make it more "interesting" in combat situations. In other words, it is now more crucial when to use stimpack in combat. Each second become more important and a good Terran player uses it at the right moment. (Obviously.) My intention was to make the "right moment" more important and also each second more valuable, due to the shorter duration time.
This was changed a long time ago. At that time I felt that unlimited selection, combined with long stimpack duration, made it very easy to select all marines, stim and A-move into the enemy army. The SC2 syndrome. And I find this problematic for many reasons, but to keep the post short I will not go into it now.
Anyways, when I have an intention with any change in order to improve the gameplay, the result do not always work in reality or become very balanced.. (You who have been around for a while now this by now ^^ ) So if this indeed is a major problem for the balance, enjoyment or any other reason, then let me know it and I will write it down for a potential HoTS patch..
Edit: I usually visits TL during the evening due to time constrains. If I miss to respond to anything you write in the thread, feel free to PM me!
I want this to be a new post since it is about something completely different. I was just watching SC2BW tournament #3 and they are getting some pretty big names to play SC2BW. LaLush (ofc), but also Morrow, and a player from SlayerS and one from TSL.
I really feel we need to get a semi-pro to try out this mod (or even a pro). If not for promotion then for feedback. I know one of the reasons we have not been "more out" to the community is that Kabel felt that Starbow is not good enough in its current form. That might be true, but I also feel the level om improvement will accelerate as more players discovers the joins and wonders of Starbow. I say, quick, before they all start playing LoL (looking at you Azelja!). Any thoughts on this matter?
I know a guy that knows beastyqt (who plays SC2BW and is a semi-pro SC2 player). I can try to get him to try Starbow (perhaps). If we could get this on TL attack or as a part of "this week in SC2" or something....
Nuff said.
Edit: March 3rd. Remember Savior.... a sad day indeed.....
On March 04 2013 01:40 Hider wrote: Hey Solid. Tank you for your post. I think it is important that replays gets discussed and analyzed by a various numbers of people to accelerate the "figuring out the game" proces. Basically, since there are no VODS of hundreds of pro's playing the game and a relatively few amount of games gets played on a daily basis, we need to theoretize quite a lot about Starbow in order to figure about proper balance and design rather than just relying on personal experience as they can be biased in regard to one playing against inferior opponents or the opponent not understanding the game properly. I always try to figure out whether the game will be entertaining + balanced once it gets figured. This is of course a very difficult task, hence I believe having these kind of discussions are so important for the future development of Starbow.
FYI I don't intend to push Starbow into the direction that suits my subjective preferences in terms of the playstyle I want to play. Rather, I want to push Starbow into the direction that will create the most interesting games once it gets figured out.
Anyway, you bring up two arguments; My opening You claim my build is bad, but wouldn't you agree that if we look at worker/army count/expansions going into the midgame --> We are quite even? Like when I land my 3rd we have equal supply/equal worker count/somewhat equal tech. So I assume that you (indirectly) imply that terran needs to be ahead going into the midgame for the game to be even. Furthermore you argue that I should have moved in with my force rather than just pressure. Assuming that was the correct decision, then I would be ahead going into the midgame (though I am pretty sure I shouldn't have moved in for a variety of reasons which I find somewhat irrelevant to discuss further in this post). Regarding your suggested build; Do you base this suggestion on your personal experiences playing against zergs who doesn't know the proper response? I mean this opening is very scoutable, so I have a very difficult time seing this build being the "equilirbrium" build once the game gets figured out. When that is said my build definitely has room for improvement, but unless you think the terran needs be ahead going into the midgame, I think it is much less of a deal than you imply.
Tanks Did you read one of my follow up posts, where I stated that the key to beating mass mutas is cutting tank production? There is no doubt that with pure bio + viking/SV's can beat mass muta play. The reason for me choosing to build tanks in that game was that I didn't have maphack so I couldn't see his exact unit composition through the whole game, and I believed that having tanks was neccesary to deal with blings + a potential tech transition. But obviously since then I have realized that I should not start tank produciton untill I have great reason to believe he has a powerfull ground army.
That leads me to a follow up question; You imply that bio + SV's can beat any zerg composition in the midgame. But assuming pure bio wasn't very viable against heavy bling/fewer mutalisks in WOL, why is that any different know? Sure SV's are nice, and zerg production is nerfed, but no mules seems to be a potential even larger nerf to bio (?). So the zerg should be capable of scouting (with his inital mutalisks) that you go tankless bio, and then make a proper response (bling heavy). So my question is, what makes Starbow so different from WOL to make you convinced that a tankless strat is viable vs a an equally skilled/intelligent zerg?
Now my second question is regarding your gameplan. What do you do in the case the game goes to lategame and the zerg gets an insane muta count and you try to defend multiple location at once? Do you A) Believe that stim + irradiate is a reliable counter to that? B) Base your gameplan on never getting to that state by simply army trading over and over?
In terms of build: i call your build bad, because terran has so many ways to pressure, yet you don't utilize any of it, especially versus an opponent that is playing greedy. I do agree it wouldn't have been the best option to commit with the forces you had, but that's the problem of your opening, i'm pretty sure you could get out a lot bigger force at that timing.
Yes you are even in terms of army/worker/tech, but your army composition is vastly inferior to his, also mind that comparing armies to their supply is a bad way to compare, because supply cost =/= unit cost, let's say that muta's are very supply efficient.
Yes my build is very scoutable and there is a correct response, which is not taking a quick third, exactly what you want to achieve, if zerg got a third, there is no way he can defend it, unless he outskills you badly. You can't go 3 hatch + extractor and have a big enough army to defend against a decent controled marine/scv army. I gave you this buildorder because i know out of my own experiences that it works well for me, I can't say it's the best opening though. Main point is, abuse the terran's ability to achieve much with few units in the early game.
My point about tanks is not that you got em at the wrong moment, my point is that they aren't necessary in tvz, they are inferior to what vessels could give you + they make you immobile. I think the biggest point you don't seem to see is that the zergs production capabilities are muuuuch lower, they just can't afford to spend many larvae on zerglings, so you don't have to be afraid of mass baneling a-moving towards you, and even in they do, stim + run away/split/irradiate, starbow is very different from WoL.
Stacking science vessels also forces the zerg to react and try to snipe them, because a critical mass of SV's is almost unkillable by zerg.
Last thing, I don't believe this strat works because my opponents were inferior. My mechanics are quite limited, vastly inferior to yours imo.
I am not completely gone, even though I have a "break" from this project. I have focused on some life-stuff now that has kept me busy. I will most likely get HoTS and upload a new patch/update after it has been released. Maybe 2 weeks from now?
So I guess you all have to live with the current patch. You can of course continue to explore the game, identify balance/design concerns and discuss potential improvements for "Heart of the Starbow" ^^ @Stimpack
To keep my explanation short - I lowered the duration time from 15 seconds in SC2 to the current 9 seconds to make it more "interesting" in combat situations. In other words, it is now more crucial when to use stimpack in combat. Each second become more important and a good Terran player uses it at the right moment. (Obviously.) My intention was to make the "right moment" more important and also each second more valuable, due to the shorter duration time.
This was changed a long time ago. At that time I felt that unlimited selection, combined with long stimpack duration, made it very easy to select all marines, stim and A-move into the enemy army. The SC2 syndrome. And I find this problematic for many reasons, but to keep the post short I will not go into it now.
Anyways, when I have an intention with any change in order to improve the gameplay, the result do not always work in reality or become very balanced.. (You who have been around for a while now this by now ^^ ) So if this indeed is a major problem for the balance, enjoyment or any other reason, then let me know it and I will write it down for a potential HoTS patch..
Edit: I usually visits TL during the evening due to time constrains. If I miss to respond to anything you write in the thread, feel free to PM me!
Hey Kabel thanks for your reply.
Regarding stim pack I am not sure this is the correct way to increase the skill cap. I think "decision-based" abilities like the current simpack will be figured out somewhat quickly and then there is no difference betwen how a diamond player uses stim pack and a GM player uses it. I feel like decision-based abillities shouldn't be prioritized over game design (such as differenaiting mech and bio/mech which currently is just as immobile as true mech).
Secondly I also disagree that there are any situations in WOL (at high level play) or at Starbow where stim could be an a-move issue. Instead I think a long duration of stim gives the opponent the ability to micro which is awesome. However, i dont believe noone has ever said; "WOW this guy is so good at using stim at just the right time, I have goosebums"... or something like that. But I think stimmed units are quite bad when unmicroe'ed and one either needs to kite or split them to be cost efficient. The second great thing about stim is that it allows for mobily. For instance I enjoy playing vs bio as mech in tvt. However, the matchup would be absolutely boring if the bio player never stimmed (or just used it in rare situations), because then he wouldn't be able to abuse the immobility. While players will still be able to micro in battles while stimmed, the lower mobility issue of shorter duration is (I think) an unintended consequence, and as I previously argued I don't think the benefit of increased skill cap is that signifcant.
On March 04 2013 01:40 Hider wrote: Hey Solid. Tank you for your post. I think it is important that replays gets discussed and analyzed by a various numbers of people to accelerate the "figuring out the game" proces. Basically, since there are no VODS of hundreds of pro's playing the game and a relatively few amount of games gets played on a daily basis, we need to theoretize quite a lot about Starbow in order to figure about proper balance and design rather than just relying on personal experience as they can be biased in regard to one playing against inferior opponents or the opponent not understanding the game properly. I always try to figure out whether the game will be entertaining + balanced once it gets figured. This is of course a very difficult task, hence I believe having these kind of discussions are so important for the future development of Starbow.
FYI I don't intend to push Starbow into the direction that suits my subjective preferences in terms of the playstyle I want to play. Rather, I want to push Starbow into the direction that will create the most interesting games once it gets figured out.
Anyway, you bring up two arguments; My opening You claim my build is bad, but wouldn't you agree that if we look at worker/army count/expansions going into the midgame --> We are quite even? Like when I land my 3rd we have equal supply/equal worker count/somewhat equal tech. So I assume that you (indirectly) imply that terran needs to be ahead going into the midgame for the game to be even. Furthermore you argue that I should have moved in with my force rather than just pressure. Assuming that was the correct decision, then I would be ahead going into the midgame (though I am pretty sure I shouldn't have moved in for a variety of reasons which I find somewhat irrelevant to discuss further in this post). Regarding your suggested build; Do you base this suggestion on your personal experiences playing against zergs who doesn't know the proper response? I mean this opening is very scoutable, so I have a very difficult time seing this build being the "equilirbrium" build once the game gets figured out. When that is said my build definitely has room for improvement, but unless you think the terran needs be ahead going into the midgame, I think it is much less of a deal than you imply.
Tanks Did you read one of my follow up posts, where I stated that the key to beating mass mutas is cutting tank production? There is no doubt that with pure bio + viking/SV's can beat mass muta play. The reason for me choosing to build tanks in that game was that I didn't have maphack so I couldn't see his exact unit composition through the whole game, and I believed that having tanks was neccesary to deal with blings + a potential tech transition. But obviously since then I have realized that I should not start tank produciton untill I have great reason to believe he has a powerfull ground army.
That leads me to a follow up question; You imply that bio + SV's can beat any zerg composition in the midgame. But assuming pure bio wasn't very viable against heavy bling/fewer mutalisks in WOL, why is that any different know? Sure SV's are nice, and zerg production is nerfed, but no mules seems to be a potential even larger nerf to bio (?). So the zerg should be capable of scouting (with his inital mutalisks) that you go tankless bio, and then make a proper response (bling heavy). So my question is, what makes Starbow so different from WOL to make you convinced that a tankless strat is viable vs a an equally skilled/intelligent zerg?
Now my second question is regarding your gameplan. What do you do in the case the game goes to lategame and the zerg gets an insane muta count and you try to defend multiple location at once? Do you A) Believe that stim + irradiate is a reliable counter to that? B) Base your gameplan on never getting to that state by simply army trading over and over?
In terms of build: i call your build bad, because terran has so many ways to pressure, yet you don't utilize any of it, especially versus an opponent that is playing greedy. I do agree it wouldn't have been the best option to commit with the forces you had, but that's the problem of your opening, i'm pretty sure you could get out a lot bigger force at that timing.
Yes you are even in terms of army/worker/tech, but your army composition is vastly inferior to his, also mind that comparing armies to their supply is a bad way to compare, because supply cost =/= unit cost, let's say that muta's are very supply efficient.
Yes my build is very scoutable and there is a correct response, which is not taking a quick third, exactly what you want to achieve, if zerg got a third, there is no way he can defend it, unless he outskills you badly. You can't go 3 hatch + extractor and have a big enough army to defend against a decent controled marine/scv army. I gave you this buildorder because i know out of my own experiences that it works well for me, I can't say it's the best opening though. Main point is, abuse the terran's ability to achieve much with few units in the early game.
My point about tanks is not that you got em at the wrong moment, my point is that they aren't necessary in tvz, they are inferior to what vessels could give you + they make you immobile. I think the biggest point you don't seem to see is that the zergs production capabilities are muuuuch lower, they just can't afford to spend many larvae on zerglings, so you don't have to be afraid of mass baneling a-moving towards you, and even in they do, stim + run away/split/irradiate, starbow is very different from WoL.
Stacking science vessels also forces the zerg to react and try to snipe them, because a critical mass of SV's is almost unkillable by zerg.
Last thing, I don't believe this strat works because my opponents were inferior. My mechanics are quite limited, vastly inferior to yours imo.
Regarding build order is probably an area that needs to be tested, and I try to tweak various stuff all the time. Your probably correct that when i get like 5 firebats early on i need to do damage, and I do another version now which hits earlier. I didn't quite get an answer regarding your gameplan? Like do you play a somewhat passive style or army trade over and over? Since you seem to imply that the zerg scales better since you can't beat a 200 food of blings, I think this implies that your gamestrat is very offensively right? Like trying to make sure he never gets a good eco and never gets a critical mass of blings. I think that is a strat I need to test my self or see a couple of replays to determine its long-term viability. Generally I always feel like the attacking guy is the one who needs to be figured out which means the long-lasting viability is limited. Though of course there are exceptions to the rule, and its possible that this might be a different situation.
Anyway regarding tanks, my current gameplan revolves around being bio heavy against mutas (along with vikings). Its true that mass sv's are insanely good late game, but in the midgame I think being able to deal with mutas is more important thus I prefer having vikings. Basically I fear that if I move out he can "counter attack with mutas" and do a lot of damge to my base. Due to the short stim duraiton I cant really retreat, and on big maps it often times doesn't matter if I kill an expasnion (as he just can transfer the drones to another one of his exapnsions far away). Im not sure how you deal with that situation - Do you have any replays against an "intelligent/decent" zerg going heavy mutas and attacking while you move out of your base?
But if he doesn't get alot of mutas you should seriosuly try out matrix + tanks. It is in my opinion the most imbalanced thing in the game right now and matrix really needs a change. It just counters everything and you can easily be more than twice as cost effective as your opponent. Bio + SV's might still be good but I very much doubt it is better than bio/tank vs non muta heavy compositions.
On March 04 2013 06:06 Xiphias wrote: I want this to be a new post since it is about something completely different. I was just watching SC2BW tournament #3 and they are getting some pretty big names to play SC2BW. LaLush (ofc), but also Morrow, and a player from SlayerS and one from TSL.
I really feel we need to get a semi-pro to try out this mod (or even a pro). If not for promotion then for feedback. I know one of the reasons we have not been "more out" to the community is that Kabel felt that Starbow is not good enough in its current form. That might be true, but I also feel the level om improvement will accelerate as more players discovers the joins and wonders of Starbow. I say, quick, before they all start playing LoL (looking at you Azelja!). Any thoughts on this matter?
I know a guy that knows beastyqt (who plays SC2BW and is a semi-pro SC2 player). I can try to get him to try Starbow (perhaps). If we could get this on TL attack or as a part of "this week in SC2" or something....
Nuff said.
Edit: March 3rd. Remember Savior.... a sad day indeed.....
Basically what this mod needs is fame. Getting a popular caster such as Day[9] or Husky to cast/play some games of it would be great. Also TL-attack would be a good spotlight. Tbh I don't think Day[9] would do it at this point; its simply not his style. Husky on the other hand has made some nice mod spotlights and gameplay videos, and if someone could get in touch with him I'm sure he would be happy to try it. As for TL-attack, I'm not sure StarBow is "wacky" enough for it to be considered.
Alternatively we could ask a popular streamer to try it out between laddering.
My take on the bio mech in tvz is that, you only need enough marines to hold everything together (that means get gas asap). Tanks are more important than marines, vikings are more important than marines, medics are more important than marines. I think, getting gas asap, cutting some (12) marines for (8) more turrets (so one can prevent even trades of muta --> vikings) until one hits the right amount. 4 turrets 2 medics 10 marines 5 vikings with splash can hold off 22 mutas, abeit barely.
You know what would be cool? stimming marines while carrying the medics in a speedy dropship. I'd love if that was viable.
I want this to be a new post since it is about something completely different. I was just watching SC2BW tournament #3 and they are getting some pretty big names to play SC2BW. LaLush (ofc), but also Morrow, and a player from SlayerS and one from TSL.
I really feel we need to get a semi-pro to try out this mod (or even a pro). If not for promotion then for feedback. I know one of the reasons we have not been "more out" to the community is that Kabel felt that Starbow is not good enough in its current form. That might be true, but I also feel the level om improvement will accelerate as more players discovers the joins and wonders of Starbow. I say, quick, before they all start playing LoL (looking at you Azelja!). Any thoughts on this matter?
I know a guy that knows beastyqt (who plays SC2BW and is a semi-pro SC2 player). I can try to get him to try Starbow (perhaps). If we could get this on TL attack or as a part of "this week in SC2" or something....
Nuff said.
Edit: March 3rd. Remember Savior.... a sad day indeed.....
Basically what this mod needs is fame. Getting a popular caster such as Day[9] or Husky to cast/play some games of it would be great. Also TL-attack would be a good spotlight. Tbh I don't think Day[9] would do it at this point; its simply not his style. Husky on the other hand has made some nice mod spotlights and gameplay videos, and if someone could get in touch with him I'm sure he would be happy to try it. As for TL-attack, I'm not sure StarBow is "wacky" enough for it to be considered.
Alternatively we could ask a popular streamer to try it out between laddering.
I tried asking avilo if he would be willing to try out S bow and OneGoal, but he and a couple of the ppl on his chat were of the sentiment that mods like these and Project M are basically "Thanks for making the game, but you did a crap job." :| Something about not wanting to disrespect the game or wutev...
I want this to be a new post since it is about something completely different. I was just watching SC2BW tournament #3 and they are getting some pretty big names to play SC2BW. LaLush (ofc), but also Morrow, and a player from SlayerS and one from TSL.
I really feel we need to get a semi-pro to try out this mod (or even a pro). If not for promotion then for feedback. I know one of the reasons we have not been "more out" to the community is that Kabel felt that Starbow is not good enough in its current form. That might be true, but I also feel the level om improvement will accelerate as more players discovers the joins and wonders of Starbow. I say, quick, before they all start playing LoL (looking at you Azelja!). Any thoughts on this matter?
I know a guy that knows beastyqt (who plays SC2BW and is a semi-pro SC2 player). I can try to get him to try Starbow (perhaps). If we could get this on TL attack or as a part of "this week in SC2" or something....
Nuff said.
Edit: March 3rd. Remember Savior.... a sad day indeed.....
Basically what this mod needs is fame. Getting a popular caster such as Day[9] or Husky to cast/play some games of it would be great. Also TL-attack would be a good spotlight. Tbh I don't think Day[9] would do it at this point; its simply not his style. Husky on the other hand has made some nice mod spotlights and gameplay videos, and if someone could get in touch with him I'm sure he would be happy to try it. As for TL-attack, I'm not sure StarBow is "wacky" enough for it to be considered.
Alternatively we could ask a popular streamer to try it out between laddering.
I tried asking avilo if he would be willing to try out S bow and OneGoal, but he and a couple of the ppl on his chat were of the sentiment that mods like these and Project M are basically "Thanks for making the game, but you did a crap job." :| Something about not wanting to disrespect the game or wutev...
You can frame starbow differently. It's similiar concepts that are in sc:bw and sc2, but rerolled. A different flavour, perhaps.
I am also thinking of holding the next one with a group stage (assuming 16 players) and a playoff (single elemination). This will probably last 3 days instead of 2. Any thoughts?
Edit: Some bugs (maybe): Mines activate mines in TvT (see the VOD above). Don't think they should do that. Also. If you morph a lurker, a crossair can pick it up and it becomes a lurker. I don't think morphing eggs should be possible to pick up. Same might be true about lings morphing to banelings.
Can someone inform me why vultures cost 33% more in Starbow than in BW? In which way have they been buffed (besides increased casting range).
Basically the reason why I ask is that (based on experiences) I think opening semi/heavy vulture in the earlymid/mid-midgame of tvp is quite bad. The thing is, you can't do any realiable harassment daamge as spreaded'out stalkers + chrono'ed cannons deal with them efficiently, and even if you manage to trade somewhat well (like in a 1.2:1 ratio), then your trading your scare ressources (minerals) for stalkers which is a kinda bad trade for you as a mech'ing terran as it severely limits your tank production.
The thing is; vultures aren't neccesary to defend while on 3 bases. Like you can use supply depots to wall of against zealots, so using them for defensive purposes in that stages of the game isn't that usefull.
Therefore I think the metagame in tvp mech will turn into terran almost not getting any vultures in the midgame but getting more tanks. When he plans to take a 4th he will probably add a couple of vultures but, but likely he will also use buildings to block of pathes (like turrets, landing a barrack, a few suply depots more as well.
Obivously this is just a theory and more testings needs to be done, but based on my experiences, that unless you plan to go for an early midgame timing attack, vultures aren't worth the cost in tvp's against a well prepared defensive protoss. In WOL you wouldn't mind suiciding hellions cus minerals bascially didn't matter. In Starbow its the other way around which I think is unfortunate.
Furthermore I am pretty sure that vultures 2-shotted probes in BW (?), and only 3-shots them Starbow, which further makes vultures as a harassoriented even worse vs protoss. So what is the reason for paying 33% extra for a unit that seems worse at harassing?
I know its better in battle's due to casting mines being a viable battle tactic, but that just makes them better at timiing attacks/allins rather than as a "harass-based unit". So if my theory is correct I think tvp will turn into a quite boring matchup in the early mid/mid-midgame with both players turtling.
As always I like to come up with possible solutions (even though it may be premature in this case), but the most simplest solution for making vultures better as a harass oriented unit would be to reduce the opportunity cost by increasing the gas cost of tanks by 25, but nerfing its mineral cost by 25. This makes it less costly to "waste" minerals on vultures.
At the same time I think we should keep an eye on 2 base mech timing attacks as I think dealing with scv's + vulture (off reactor) + a couple of tanks is quite difficult to counter as protoss unless you "blind-counter it" by putting up lots of gateways, cutting probes and go'ing for zero tech. Vultures being produced out of reactors are quite strong in allins, and a building time increase could be considered (which wouldn't really impact the viability of them as a harass oriented unit). But this area probably needs more tesing as well, and it's possible that the protoss metagame against terrans just needs to change so that they become less greedy.
I think one of the reaons was just pure imba on BW side. 75 minerals for a unit that is fast, does 20 dmg vs light AND has three very good mines for free (after upgrade) is just ridiculous.
We just buffed hydras slightly to deal with them, so lowering the cost might help TvP, but it will hurt ZvT again.
One of the improtant aspects of vulture harass is how many you use. That was a big difference between flash and fantasy's playstyles in TvP in bw. Flash would use few vutures (3 or 4) for harassment, so the risk/reward ratio was not so crusial, while fantasy would send many more vultures. Not sure if SB works the same way. Can you do about the same amount of damage with 3-4 vultures as you can with 7-10? I think so, and if yes, then that might be the answer.
I pre-booked HoTS today, since I decided to continue the work on Starbow. Yey! I have been a bit doubtful about it, but I do not want to drop this project completely. I can go on for a while atleast ^^
I will later this week write a post where I describe some of the fundamental areas that I find problematic with Starbow. When I upload the next patch, after HoTS has been released, I will aim to improve some of those areas. That might mean that some units, spells, abilities etc becomes a bit modified and maybe even replaced.
Anyway, I encourage you all to discuss, evaluate and think about how the game can become better. What works? What is problematic? What is not fun? What feels empty? And so on..
Detail balance is of course important. But do not focus too much on it since some things, like unit relationships, might change at a larger scale. The last patch by Blizzard screwed up some things with the Starbow-file, due to changes in the editor. I get many bug-reports via PM and here in the thread. I will aim to fix those aswell with the next patch.
Ps. I´m off (of?) to work now so I will try to reply tonight when I get home.
On March 06 2013 23:14 Xiphias wrote: I think one of the reaons was just pure imba on BW side. 75 minerals for a unit that is fast, does 20 dmg vs light AND has three very good mines for free (after upgrade) is just ridiculous.
We just buffed hydras slightly to deal with them, so lowering the cost might help TvP, but it will hurt ZvT again.
One of the improtant aspects of vulture harass is how many you use. That was a big difference between flash and fantasy's playstyles in TvP in bw. Flash would use few vutures (3 or 4) for harassment, so the risk/reward ratio was not so crusial, while fantasy would send many more vultures. Not sure if SB works the same way. Can you do about the same amount of damage with 3-4 vultures as you can with 7-10? I think so, and if yes, then that might be the answer.
But I think you can't do damage with vultures on an effiicent basis against a defensive protoss. Like what does 10 vultuures (compared to 3-4) accomplish in the midgame? If he has 2 cannons at each base and a couple of stalkers maybe, what can you actually do? Against a protoss who gets his fair share of observers, cannons and prepares preemptively for vultures you can't really do anything. Another problem is that starport tech is unsafe early on (unlike in BW) i guess, because you will die to a warp prism (warp tech) timing attack if you invest in starport tech. And later on siege tanks drop are much worse than in BW due to warp tech and blink stalkers (and improved AI i guess).
So basically I feel like tvp (once it gets figured out) will turn into a turtle party 50% of the time with very little multitasking from both sides. Then maybe 30% of the time the terran will do a an early midgame timing attack/all in to keep the protoss "honest" and 20% of the time the toss will do some cheesy stuff to keep the terran honest. This is in my opinion not a very good "mathcup-design" (a term I just invented), as players should be kept honest through harass-oriented play (small risk oriented play) rather than timing attacks/all ins (high risk/high reward).
TvP first starts getting interesting once we reach the late game where the terran is spread out over 4-6 bases as the toss at that point can abuse the immobility of the terran mech army. However, I would prefer that the midgame harass options would be buffed as it would create a lot more entertaining throughout the whole game.
Maybe vultures were OP in BW, however this nerf is huge; 33% higher cost and 50% less DPS on probes (and stronger cannons I guess). I just don't see the theoretical argument for why these huge "harass-nerfs" were needed. And based on my experiences I find a correlation between my succesrate in the matchup and the tank/vulture ratio.
Besides the gas/mineral change of tanks I have previously suggested to give terrans a starport tech lab research so that dropships can pick up siege tanks (but they can only unload tanks in unsieged mode though). Furthermore one could argue that warp tech shouldn't come in the early midgame as it minimizes the amount of creativity that the terran can pull off (assuming he still wants to play safe rather than coinflippy), so perhaps it should require a twilight tech?
Also whenever you are uncertain of whether one unit will be overpowered or not (once the game gets figured out), and your not certain whether to change the stats of it, one should always consider this; Will the OP unit create interesting games or will the OP unit lead to boring games? Vultures are an entertaining unit and making that unit OP isn't actually a huge "mistake". Like this is why I suggest all these buffs to the dropships because the worst case scenario of overbuffing it is very small.
So regarding the vulture, maybe I am wrong and maybe it will become a viable harass unit in the midgame (once the matchup gets figured out), but why take the chance? Why not just make this cost readjustment so terrans can afford both vultures and tanks at the same time without having 2k+ gas in the midgame. What is the worst that can happen?
Btw Kabel I know you don't want design changes, but the planetary seriously needs one as it is completely flawed. It does two things;
1) It incentivizes deathballs. 2) It nerfs harass (DT harass for instance is completely useless late game).
It adds nothing to the game in terms of entertainment value, besides making the game more "noob-friendly", as bad multitasking is punished less.
Previously I suggested to make planetary an energy based abillity that OC can use which lasts for X seconds (somewhat similar to the HOTS nexus overcharge or w/e it is called). Danko thought it was a good idea as well, and I believe it will create the following dynamic;
1) Planetary is now much weaker vs harass as you will have to pay the price of 75 energy (or something like that) to defend against 2-3 zealots attacking the scv's. The zealots can then retreat and continue their attack after the duraiton has expired (30 seconds or so). 2) While the planetary aility is activated its HP could be increased by roughly 100%, which will make it much much more durable vs deathball armies which means that terrans now have time to save the expansion if they were caught slightly out of position.
You know, it'd be super awesome to come out with a stand alone game based on this mod, sort of like League or DoTa. Would it be too similar to Starcraft to get copy right infringement?
EPT
