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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Nydus is lair tech i think. It is lair tech. Yeah. Making drop the "Lair tech" and Nydus the "hive tech" would give them distintive roles. Also calls back to the roots of BW with nydus canals. That was in fact what I suggested..... I guess some of us agree on the vulture then  | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
It is lair tech. Yeah. Making drop the "Lair tech" and Nydus the "hive tech" would give them distintive roles. Also calls back to the roots of BW with nydus canals. Oh, Johnnyzerg just told me it was hive tech, he must have been mistaken then. Anyway, I thought of this suggestion (a long time ago), which also would solve the "can't move out with hydras vs vultures early game). Also please note that I want to make the early game be about small risks, small advantages. Like I don't want to create early game harass units/abilities/tech structures which easily can take the game from 50%vs50% into 80% vs 20%. So here is my suggestion for a redesigned nydus network (not something I expect this wedsnday though). 1) Nydus network tech avaiable at hatch tech! However maximum supply through the channel is 3. Cost of the tech is reduced to 25/25, and each cannal costs 25/25 as well. 2) At lair you can upgrade the supply cap from 3 to 30. The upgrade costs 50/50. Each canal still costs 25/25. I believe this change will give zerg some early game harass options (which probably is needed more in WOL than in starbow, not sure about that. If zerg is fine early on, then the idea of making it avaiable at hatch can be ignored). Like imagine you have 3 hydras and want to do a bit of harass. You invest in this relatively cheap tech and hopes to kill maybe 2-3 scv's or a geyser, maybe a supply depot. Something like that, before you escape. Hardly something can be considered an allin. It's just about gaining tha 55%vs45% situation going into the midgame. The problem with the current nydus is that it might be slightly too all'insh, but also slightly too unreliable. Setting a supply cap of 30 on each channel while reducing costs, will make it more viable for splitting up the opposing race's army in the mid/late game and using it for harass rather than as an allin. Overlord drops cost reduced will destroy PvZ i think. Early drops are already very powerful in this mu, stronger than in TvZ, cause T can be relatively safe with scans, tanks, mines and marines, while P has much worse defences. I also suggested increasing research time to compensate. I think when someone is planning an all'insh overlord drop the research time matters a great deal (rather than just whether it costs 100/100 or 200/200), because timing is everything. However, if you plan to play late game and just use drops to distract your opopnent you won't care that much about whether the research is 100 seconds or 130 seconds, so hopefully this won't encourage zvp allins. Azelja I do agree that there should be certain limits to how cost effective mech should be. Do you think a damage buff to the hydra's vs vultuures (from 6 to 8) is enough, or do you think other straight up "battle buffs" should be made as well? If the latter is the case could you please provide provide a couple of replays. | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
Remove it could be a solution. I would not mind an increase in the model of the mine. Time ago, nydus on starbow require hive tech. Now require lair. Probably kabel has modified this tech to lair without saying anything. I think nydus should require hive tech but make it more economic (1/2 of the cost).To prevent abuse, needs creep. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Azelja
Japan762 Posts
On February 26 2013 18:40 Hider wrote:(...) Azelja I do agree that there should be certain limits to how cost effective mech should be. Do you think a damage buff to the hydra's vs vultuures (from 6 to 8) is enough, or do you think other straight up "battle buffs" should be made as well? If the latter is the case could you please provide provide a couple of replays. I think Hydras are doing (relatively) fine against everything that is not a ton of Vultures (with maybe even a shitton of Tank behind them), so right now, I think buffing them specifically vs Vultures would do the trick. I also agree on making Vultures freeze/run around like their BW counterparts etc. after laying mines. As is, they are really easy to micro in early midgame situations. And as far as the Nydus goes, I really like your take on that with the different tier upgrades for it, would kinda like to see that in action. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
Reaver is dealing twice its damage. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
 Also; the rest of the replays from the tournament: http://www.fileswap.com/dl/bFdr6VMcwr/ See the wiki for the rest. | ||
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Azelja
Japan762 Posts
http://drop.sc/307325 http://drop.sc/307326 Pretty fun games from yesterday evening with a retarded Zerg headbutting fortified positions over and over again :p | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Balance changes: Hydralisks now deal 6 dmg vs light, 8 vs everything else and 10 vs armored. (Earlier they dealt 6 vs all and 10 vs armored BUT 8 dmg vs non-armored air units) This change makes Hydras better vs Vultures. Queen HP reduced from 150 to 125. Spider mine require 0.5 seconds longer time to burrow. Firebat damage increased from 18 to 20 vs light. They now kill Zerglings, probes and drones in 2 shots. Damage point has been changed so they are more micro friendly. Combat shield gives +10 life and still reduces dmg over 20 to 20. Costs 150/150 and does NOT require Armory anymore. Dropship cost reduced from 100/100 to 100/50. Build time has been reduced from 42 to 36 seconds. Turret upgrade increases range by 1 instead of 2. Cost decreased from 200/200 to 100/100. Arbiter shield reduced by 50. Stasis field area of effect reduced a little bit. Bug fixes by XiA! Hmm.. Was there something more that I forgot to add here? There are some other things that have been discussion that I did not change. I try to be careful. Of course there are other problems in the game that must be adressed. But this patch hopefully deals with some critical things atleast... | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
Edit: currently 1 firebat not twoshots lings because of regeneration, and remain them with 1 hp. If you can twos shot lings use more firebat or research +1. @Matrix: this ability is created to make bio stronger vs units as strong vs tanks and reavers. Terran is starting to find it and how to be strong when paired with tanks. I think that is too strong matrix on non-bio units. Make matrix to be used only on bio units? @Tank in tank mode Nice, now tank can move and attack micro, and speed has been increased from 2.07 to 2.17 (zealot speed with no upgrade is 2.07) Try it. ps: i have suggestion this idea ^^ Purple storm and Neorequiem Updated! Unit test map updated. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Rest seems to be fine now. Thanks for a great patch! more games casted: + Show Spoiler + Chrono Vs HideRDK. Game 1: Game 2: | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
Basicially these are the units which I feel should be discussed; 1) Banelings - I think they are useless late game, lets try to change them in a way so that they are usefull vs both toss and terran. Danko you had a suggestion on how to change them, could you please come with specific ingame situations where they could create interesting scenarios while still being differeniated from other zerg units? 2) Capital ships - I do think BC's and carriers are pretty okay'ish (from a design perspective), so I don't think this should be prioritized as highly, though neither of them are that entertaining. 3) Plantary - Basically I believe that we should try to make this a structure that is less efficient at defending harass (for example dt's), but on the other hand live longer so that it is capable of winning time for the other terran units to come back to defend it. The current version of the plantary doesn't really work that way which is why I believe a redesign is neccesary. Here is a suggestion; Orbital commands can now be upgraded to planateries with an upgrade that costs 100/100 (which shuold require ebay). After the upgrade has been researched the plantary will continue to provide the same benefits as it previously did under the OC. But it doesn't have any kind of attack, however at an energy cost of 100, it's HP is doubled and it gains + 2 armor. Scv's can also be put inside the plantary (so they are protected). When the ability is activated it has the same attack as it had in WOL/HOTS. I believe this change will work in the sense that it will only defend harass/attacks for 30 seconds. But after those 30 seconds have passed, the terran player is now vulnerable to harass at the expansion for the next 100 seconds, and using the plantary as a "multitask-helper" has an opportunity cost in terms of 2 scans. So terrans with poor multitasking now pays a price for relying on the planatery, while better terrans will be able to defend harass by splitting up their army correctly. 4) Dropships vs protoss - I think it would be awesome if drops were more viable in the later stages of the games against protoss. Making the dropships cheaper is one step in the correct way, and time will tell if its enough against abilities like warptech and blink stalkers. However, I still like the idea of given dropships an upgrade which allows thems to pick up sieged tanks. 5) Nydus network - I suggested to make this a lot cheaper and put a supply cap on the amount of units that can be transferred through each channel to make it a smaller risk/smaller reward play. Personally I want to see nydus's and or overlord drops being used in 80%+ of games rather than just once a while, so I am biased in favor of a redesign which buffs this tech pattern (for the same reason as I am biased in favor of buffing dropships). 6) Bio vs protoss/terran - I think for the sake of diversity it would be interesting to see if we could make this unit composition more viable in those two matchups. 7) This is just a potential issue, which Danko argued for; Goliaths are too weak in the early game vs muta's. The vulture nerf vs zerg means that zerg can now be greedier against a mech'ing terrans which means that a muta opening or a muta tech switch is stronger. Danko's suggestion was to give goliaths +2 damage vs them, but reduce how much they benefit from upgrades (so that 3/3 goliaths are still as good as they once were). I think this will require more testing, but goliaths are definitely not very good early on vs mutas (remember that this is before you have vikings with hellfire missiles). Anything else I forgot? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
Basically I have no clue what I did wrong in this game. I put a bit of pressure on and when i take my 3rd we are even in worker count and supply count. Through the game I feel like get the optimal amount of turrets and sensor towers at each base. I took my 4th basically asap as i could. I get kinda as many vikings as i could. In hindsight I had too many tanks, but it is important to note that if he any kind of tech switch (which he could afford) I need those tanks as I have to be cost effective in tvz. After the game Jay looked through the replay and neither of us found anything signifcant I could do differently. I feel like I can defend 23 mutas while on 4 bases too some extent, but when he suddently added 20 more mutas I was dead. It's an impossible situation to deal with as terran in that situation. If you study the replay you will probably note that his muta count through the whole game was too high for me too make any kind of attack, even though my average unspent ressources were very low through the whole game. So why is this a problem in Starbow and not in BW? My theory is that in BW you could only really control 12 mutas efficiently at the time, which made mass muta strats kinda unplayable. Also I do believe that the Starbow's production mechanicsm's favor zerg compared to how it worked in BW. In sc2 you had mules, no frb and stim duration was much longer. In Starbow I feel like bio is completely useless at defending mutalisk harass cus stim goes off so quickly + medis always trail behind marines if you "overstim". Solution? I previosuly suggested reducing costs of marines to 45? This may still work. Alternatively what about just giving terrans the sc2 version of stim? http://drop.sc/308235 | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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