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I won't write long message as that basically impossible do to on my phone but anyway I want to contribute somehow. So here are my suggestions.
-baneling: make him deal damage only when detonated or connected with enemy. Remove damage on death. Add friendly fire. Change cost to 0/50 and damage to ~100 vs everything. Massing them will be pointless but with good control they are gonna be great even in small numbers. Also, sniping them will be possible counter.
-queen: move to larvae. Add gas cost. Right now they are no brainer. Moving them to larvae and adding gas cost will slow down zerg Eco giving choice for either faster 3rd or safer gas- > queens expands.
-firebat: damage point buffed. Right now they Wait very long before attacking. Faster damage point will make them atack 1 more before dying and allow stutter step micro.
-medic shield cost /bt lowered to like 50/50/60. Value nerfed to 66%. Earlier shield will let t to move out faster and have crucial stimpack faster.
-starport: bt lowered by 5 sec.
-banshee and dropship bt lowered by 5 sec. Banshee gas cost lowered by 25. Dropship by 50. cloak cost reduced to 150/150
-vulture dmg vs light buffed to 20, attack speed reduced to 1. 75. Mines damage changed to 75/90/105.
-Hydra: damage changed to 6/8/10. Bonus vs air removed.
-Goliath: damage vs non armored air buffed to 10. Bonus from upgrade vs non armored reduced by 1.
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-statis Range lowered to 7. Arbiter HP lowered to 100/150. Also, if we will change statis at some point I would suggest making it very small aoe growing. over time, freezing everything in range for its duration. So you always can freeze something but opponent can reduce effect by running with rest units. This way it still will be useful to some degree even vs small fast units.
-Emp cast cost lowered to 75.
BTW. We have already disruption web in game so we can't add another. It's called nerve jammer.
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hmmm Carefull with the banshee. It might add more variaty to the TvZ opening but it might break TvP, All this feels a bit over the top for punishing zerg. Maybe only queen or firebat, not both.
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Also, if we will change statis at some point I would suggest making it very small aoe growing. over time, freezing everything in range for its duration. So you always can freeze something but opponent can reduce effect by running with rest units. This way it still will be useful to some degree even vs small fast units.
This is a quite interesting suggestion as well.
In terms of suggestion for wednsday I still prefer lower AOE. Making turrets the best/easiest counter to arbiters isn't a great idea in my opinion as it will incentivizes terran's turtling, and slow pushing with turret lines. At times these kind of games can be a bit boring. I believe there is a thin line between watching an entertaining game with a turtling terran, and watching someone buildings turrets and sensor tower everywhere and not attacking for the first 40+ minuts.
Also I prefer that protoss's in a somewhat reliable way can cast stasis and do a bit of damage, rather than having to hope that there is a small hole in his turret line, and you can cast it before your arbiter dies.
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Yeah. Cloaked banshees may be. problematic in pvts. Maybe just making them more accessible without making cloak more accessible would be good solution for opening some aditional viable harras options. Right now banshees come so late by that time z will have scourges and p blink stalkers.
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@Danko-banelings I like the idea of removing damage on death and introducing friendly fire, so powerful. I think banelings will just kill everything, including zerg's own zerglings and banelings. Then zerg will realize, I just have to use hydras/lurkers and drop banelings from overlords: the end.
I haven't seen a banshee in forever in pvt. Protosses usually rush for multiple obs, they are not so gas constrained like sc2, and they usually place a cannon at each base against vultures anyways. Further more, 1/1/1 builds are pretty weak and the current warpgate push makes it impractical to go 2 base starport (that detail is according to hider). Even otherwise the ob comes with plenty of time remaining. I'm pretty sure banshee is not going to break pvt.
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Bane rain would be pain. But on the other hand starbow is less deathballish than sc 2 and races have quite different tools to deal with that. Nerve jammer + no dmg on death. Sairs to snipe ovies. goliaths and turrets. Also, increased gas cost would directly affect how many you can afford.
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Me and HideRDK did some hydra Vs vultures testing, seeing that speed-vulture openings vs zerg are pretty darn good atm. It seemed balanced unitill we gave the vultures mines. It was no fun anymore. There is no way hydras can micro well vs mines, and it's so easy for terran to spam "e" while it is so hard for hydras to individually kill each mine or kite, since you can place mines behind hydras.
We discussed the issue and propose a further delay between the mine is place into the ground before it is capable of deploy (not sure if it should be "visible" for a longer time as well). Mines should be placed beforehand to stop flanks and such, not be a micro tool to kill units (I feel...) and right now, it almost feels like force fields.
I was going to upload a replay from the unit-tester but it does not save those reps. Just try it in the unit tester. 10 vults with mines vs 10 hydras. You can have all the space you won't. Not even Jaedong can save those hydras.
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Yeah. I know. And 8 dmg vs them combined with vultures lower atack speed could be enough. Also, 8 dmg would allow hydras to 4 shot mines instead of 5.
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On February 26 2013 06:39 Danko__ wrote:
Yeah. I know. And 8 dmg vs them combined with vultures lower atack speed could be enough. Also, 8 dmg would allow hydras to 4 shot mines instead of 5.
I don't even think that's enough. The outcome was absolutely ridicilous like 10 vultures vs 10 hydras, you end up with like 5 vultures left. The deployment time of mines simply needs to be increased (I also think it was higher in BW than what it is in Starbow).
Anyway to sum up my suggested balance changes;
1) Matrix damage reduction nerf from 75% to 65%.
2) Stasis AOE reduction by roughly 15%.
3) Firebat health increased from 100 to 115
4) Firebat model size increased.
5) Marine now starts with combat shield (debatable though).
6) Deployment time of mines increased by roughly 33%.
7) Dropship cost reduced from 100/100 to 75/75. Build time decreased from 42 seconds to 30 seconds.
Lastly I wouldn't mind seeing nydus tech come for free at hive tech or simply reduce the cost of the tech to 50/50 (or something cheap). Each nydus cannal should still cost the same amount of ressources though.
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Or Maybe z will have to learn how to micro vs mines. I would love to test that with. you but I won't be online in normal hours not earlier than Saturday. I can play in mornings this week. 8-12 cet. If anyone will be online at thattime that would be cool.
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Make it like in broodwar, the vulture actually has to move to location X in order to plant a mine there. I like the deployment time increase better though, there are some nice tricks you can do (and it feels smoother) with ranged deployment. Reward pre-laying mines, yes.
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K me and danko tested speed vultures vs speed hydras. 18 vultuures vs 18 hydras --> outcome: 15 vulturues left.
Obivously that is absolutely ridiclous. I dont even think longer deployment time is enough, and Danko suggested that hydras damage get changed to 6/8/10 so that they deal 8 damage to vultures. This is probably neccesary as well.
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I have pretty much always considered mech vs Zerg to have been and still be op for quite a long time now (since I used it against Gossen and then theorycrafted for a couple of weeks). Vultures are disposable heroes against Zerg (and just as awesome as the song), a threshold of Tanks melts everything on the ground and between upgraded Goliaths and upgraded Vikings, Mutalisks are a joke. Burrowed Infestor neural parasite was able to catch mech a bit off-guard but with more detection in late game, it also fell flat.
I stray away from using mech, tho, cause honestly, it just feels cheap every time you win with mech against Zerg. That and the fact that I kinda play more LoL nowadays but oh well...
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On February 26 2013 09:40 Azelja wrote:
I have pretty much always considered mech vs Zerg to have been and still be op for quite a long time now (since I used it against Gossen and then theorycrafted for a couple of weeks). Vultures are disposable heroes against Zerg (and just as awesome as the song), a threshold of Tanks melts everything on the ground and between upgraded Goliaths and upgraded Vikings, Mutalisks are a joke. Burrowed Infestor neural parasite was able to catch mech a bit off-guard but with more detection in late game, it also fell flat.
I stray away from using mech, tho, cause honestly, it just feels cheap every time you win with mech against Zerg. That and the fact that I kinda play more LoL nowadays but oh well...
Well mech is supposed to rape zerg in a straight up battle. That's kinda why I suggested to reduce costs of nydus to incentivize zergs attacking where the terran mech is not. Overlord drop tech could possibly be made cheaper as well if it doesn't interfere with the zvp matchup.
With the current cost of overlrod drop tech and nydus it feels like the zerg has to make a certain decision before he invests in those upgrades/tech structure. However, if the game is designed such as the zerg having to abuse the immobility of the opposing player to win, then there is actually no reason for making this a "decisiion". Making the upgrades extremely cheap is a straight message to zergs (at least vs mech):
Abuse nydus and overlord drops, but don't attack straight into his siege tank line.
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On February 26 2013 08:19 Hider wrote:
K me and danko tested speed vultures vs speed hydras. 18 vultuures vs 18 hydras --> outcome: 15 vulturues left.
Obivously that is absolutely ridiclous. I dont even think longer deployment time is enough, and Danko suggested that hydras damage get changed to 6/8/10 so that they deal 8 damage to vultures. This is probably neccesary as well.
Hydras in broodwar did 75% of 10 explosive damage to vultures, this change makes sense.
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On February 26 2013 09:44 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 09:40 Azelja wrote:
I have pretty much always considered mech vs Zerg to have been and still be op for quite a long time now (since I used it against Gossen and then theorycrafted for a couple of weeks). Vultures are disposable heroes against Zerg (and just as awesome as the song), a threshold of Tanks melts everything on the ground and between upgraded Goliaths and upgraded Vikings, Mutalisks are a joke. Burrowed Infestor neural parasite was able to catch mech a bit off-guard but with more detection in late game, it also fell flat.
I stray away from using mech, tho, cause honestly, it just feels cheap every time you win with mech against Zerg. That and the fact that I kinda play more LoL nowadays but oh well... Well mech is supposed to rape zerg in a straight up battle. That's kinda why I suggested to reduce costs of nydus to incentivize zergs attacking where the terran mech is not. Overlord drop tech could possibly be made cheaper as well if it doesn't interfere with the zvp matchup. With the current cost of overlrod drop tech and nydus it feels like the zerg has to make a certain decision before he invests in those upgrades/tech structure. However, if the game is designed such as the zerg having to abuse the immobility of the opposing player to win, then there is actually no reason for making this a "decisiion". Making the upgrades extremely cheap is a straight message to zergs (at least vs mech): Abuse nydus and overlord drops, but don't attack straight into his siege tank line.
Which would be okay, unless the number of tanks needed to rape everything is too low against what Zerg can throw out in the beginning. And yeah, Vultures are pretty much imbalanced against Zerg. Risk/reward for running 4 Vultures into the Zerg's base is ridiculous, way more so than with Hellions in WoL or even Vultures in BW, cause they were way harder to micro well and Hydras did better against them. Niche-buffing Hydras is - imo - a better option than making drop/nydus more accessible (mainly because I don't think they are that expensive to get for the reward that you can reap by getting either one or both of them).
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Also. I liked how the overseers where faster since they had a natural higher speed than the overlords and then even got a higher speed from the speed upgrade. Now, they lag behind a mobil zerg force, making it more difficult to move out quickly if opponent has placed minefields. Maybe make overseers without speed slightly faster and let that be addded to the speed upgrade later on?
If you open mine vults and not do any damage, ur still super safe untill lair and overlord speed, because you cannot have overssers all over the map untill speed anyway, as long as the terran player makes pockets of mines along the attack path.
Hence also, I like the reduced cost of overlord transport, and nydus worms. We have to be a bit careful with both though, as it can open for some heavy cheese vs a FFE toss e.g. and a greedy terran. Maybe we want to punish that?
Edit: Upping the hydra damage might be enought, but I got a new thought for solving the hydra Vs Vulture issue. What if the whole vulture placing the mine animation just took longer time. The mine takes longer to burrow, and the vulture is "frezzed" (unmicroable) for a longer time and cannot fire for a longer time. Then the hydras get more free shots off as they are placing the mines, so they have to chose between placing the mines or microing vs the hydras. This should promote, placeing themines before you engade and perhaps try to lure the hydras into the minefield (which I think is more exiting play: "Does he take the bait?"). This should also not punish TvP much since you should always place the mines down before toss engades anyway and not during battle (then it should be too late).
Maybe both this and the 6/8/10 is needed. Testing will show.
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On February 26 2013 15:15 Xiphias wrote:
Also. I liked how the overseers where faster since they had a natural higher speed than the overlords and then even got a higher speed from the speed upgrade. Now, they lag behind a mobil zerg force, making it more difficult to move out quickly if opponent has placed minefields. Maybe make overseers without speed slightly faster and let that be addded to the speed upgrade later on?
If you open mine vults and not do any damage, ur still super safe untill lair and overlord speed, because you cannot have overssers all over the map untill speed anyway, as long as the terran player makes pockets of mines along the attack path.
Hence also, I like the reduced cost of overlord transport, and nydus worms. We have to be a bit careful with both though, as it can open for some heavy cheese vs a FFE toss e.g. and a greedy terran. Maybe we want to punish that?
Edit: Upping the hydra damage might be enought, but I got a new thought for solving the hydra Vs Vulture issue. What if the whole vulture placing the mine animation just took longer time. The mine takes longer to burrow, and the vulture is "frezzed" (unmicroable) for a longer time and cannot fire for a longer time. Then the hydras get more free shots off as they are placing the mines, so they have to chose between placing the mines or microing vs the hydras. This should promote, placeing themines before you engade and perhaps try to lure the hydras into the minefield (which I think is more exiting play: "Does he take the bait?"). This should also not punish TvP much since you should always place the mines down before toss engades anyway and not during battle (then it should be too late).
Maybe both this and the 6/8/10 is needed. Testing will show.
Well nydus tech is hive so I don't see any reason why it should cost ressources (I think its like 150/150 currently, which isn't that much, but reducing it to 50/50 or 0/0 would send a clear message without having any consequences from a balance perspective).
Overlord drops could be reduced from 200/200 to something like 100/100 but instead we could increase build time slightly (to prevents all ins from being too strong).
What if the whole vulture placing the mine animation just took longer time
That was in fact what I suggested.....
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Well nydus tech is hive so I don't see any reason why it should cost ressources (I think its like 150/150 currently, which isn't that much, but reducing it to 50/50 or 0/0 would send a clear message without having any consequences from a balance perspective).
Overlord drops could be reduced from 200/200 to something like 100/100 but instead we could increase build time slightly (to prevents all ins from being too strong).
Nydus is lair tech i think. But i like idea of cheaper nydus overall. What about making it cost 50/50 for nydus canal (buildable by drone, on creep like any building with 30-40 BT), and giving it (maybe somehow altered) nydus worm ability at hive? This way it wont overlap so badly with drops.
Overlord drops cost reduced will destroy PvZ i think. Early drops are already very powerful in this mu, stronger than in TvZ, cause T can be relatively safe with scans, tanks, mines and marines, while P has much worse defences.
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EPT
