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Tashadan:
Well, arbiters are working as intended... Even tooltip says "ground units". It was changed long time ago so he can not remember.
Monochromatic:
Recal - teleport is so slow, so its not like you can harrass free. Its like 4 sec disable. Its hell long! But it will require a lot of testing i belive, as most things.
Goons - Feels much better! Just try it. Toss can harras terra now, apply some pressure. And even do some damage to not careful terrans, but its not like autowin or something. You can repair bunker and put marauders inside. Little investment + some attention is enough early game, and in midgame they NEED that range anyway. It changes PvP too, but you still can just invest in earlier reavers insteed (with range 11).
Zealots: I had no occasion to test them, but i admit it. On paper it looks way too strong, and zealots are already strong. Anyway, most of ups are experiments, so i have nothing against testing upgrades like this.
Marauder - bullshit. If you had only seen them in action then you would change your mind. 3 marauders were ripping apart 3 (2 times as costly) goons easly.They are much better fitting now, but temporary solution until we will find something better (or they will really work well).
Vikings - they require testing. I dont completly agree on ALL of their stats, but cant say how well they actually do.
Overcharge was skill i never liked. Matter of preference.
-I dont like breed overall, so i wont comment on that.
-Hydras were owning toss, and they were way too fast off creep. But i belive partially its fault of zerg macro beeing too strong.
-Banelings are not needed, i dont like them, but they are there, so you can use them.
-Never seen infestors in game, but zerg after early game could do to opponent anything he wanted.
Thats what i think or feel after some games. We still need a lot of testing.
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I used infestors in pvz. Plague is good sometimes.
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I am starting to doubt that Breed actually needs to be in the game. It feels messy and Zerg might aswell just build more hatcheries to macro better. The only nice things with Breed is that players can bring them to the front line and hatch some eggs near the enemy to get faster reinforcements. That can be fun, but people rarely uses it. People get confused by the ability and, with the hand on your heart, does it actually improve anything in the game?
But if I remove both Breed and Inject larva the Queens can only heal and use creep tumors. Won´t that feel a bit... naked?
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On June 27 2012 08:54 Kabel wrote:
I am starting to doubt that Breed actually needs to be in the game. It feels messy and Zerg might aswell just build more hatcheries to macro better. The only nice things with Breed is that players can bring them to the front line and hatch some eggs near the enemy to get faster reinforcements. That can be fun, but people rarely uses it. People get confused by the ability and, with the hand on your heart, does it actually improve anything in the game?
But if I remove both Breed and Inject larva the Queens can only heal and use creep tumors. Won´t that feel a bit... naked?
No, I don't think it will. Since Nexi have Chrono Boost and the Orbital Command has MULE and Scan. While the Queen has Heal and Creep Tumors.
If you are going to remove the Larvae-esque ability that the Zerg have. At least make up for it with Hatcheries being able to have 4 or 5 maximum larvae at a Hatchery.
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On June 27 2012 08:54 Kabel wrote:
I am starting to doubt that Breed actually needs to be in the game. It feels messy and Zerg might aswell just build more hatcheries to macro better. The only nice things with Breed is that players can bring them to the front line and hatch some eggs near the enemy to get faster reinforcements. That can be fun, but people rarely uses it. People get confused by the ability and, with the hand on your heart, does it actually improve anything in the game?
But if I remove both Breed and Inject larva the Queens can only heal and use creep tumors. Won´t that feel a bit... naked?
Breed is great because it makes queens able to remax your army without building tons of macro hatches.
It improves the game by giving zerg a macro mechanic. Otherwise they just have tons of hatcheries and are incredibly weak compared to T and P. If you do remove it, then Z cannot build attacking units without sacrificing their early economy and they just get behind all game.
I have no idea how people can get confused by the ability. It clearly states 1 egg per 25 energy, and it improves the game by letting people attack the Z know that killing a queen will cripple them. It also makes Z less about making tons of hatches, and, as you said, it is used to reinforce anywhere on the map.
I don't know what about it is "messy" to you. It's simple, zergy, and great in both early and lategame.
If you do change it, then I will have to switch from Z to P or T.
Edit: Dakota, 4 or 5 max larva will not help at all. You still cannot make units early game without just giving up.
If you remove this ability, you remove all chances of Z having any chance to win without an all in.
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On June 27 2012 09:36 Monochromatic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 08:54 Kabel wrote:
I am starting to doubt that Breed actually needs to be in the game. It feels messy and Zerg might aswell just build more hatcheries to macro better. The only nice things with Breed is that players can bring them to the front line and hatch some eggs near the enemy to get faster reinforcements. That can be fun, but people rarely uses it. People get confused by the ability and, with the hand on your heart, does it actually improve anything in the game?
But if I remove both Breed and Inject larva the Queens can only heal and use creep tumors. Won´t that feel a bit... naked?
If you remove this ability, you remove all chances of Z having any chance to win without an all in.
Are you serious? 
I've watched you play and you don't even use the ability effectively anyway. You sit around with like two-thousand minerals in the bank sometimes.
If you're going to commit to an attack. It's obviously not going to be super early. Zergs always get one of two spine crawlers and maybe more if they see a heavy attack coming. If you remember in Brood War, they mostly held off huge attacks with four or five Sunken Colonies along with some Zerglings so they could delay until they got Lurkers.
Let's see the ability removed and I'll play some Zerg. Zergs' can be aggressive but they just never are... -_-
Not only that but since we're using FRB, static defense is much more effective in the early game.
Also, for fun. Why not have Overlord creep spread be available when you get an Evolution Chamber just like in Heart of the Swarm for funzies. 
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On June 27 2012 10:10 MNdakota wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 09:36 Monochromatic wrote:On June 27 2012 08:54 Kabel wrote:
I am starting to doubt that Breed actually needs to be in the game. It feels messy and Zerg might aswell just build more hatcheries to macro better. The only nice things with Breed is that players can bring them to the front line and hatch some eggs near the enemy to get faster reinforcements. That can be fun, but people rarely uses it. People get confused by the ability and, with the hand on your heart, does it actually improve anything in the game?
But if I remove both Breed and Inject larva the Queens can only heal and use creep tumors. Won´t that feel a bit... naked?
If you remove this ability, you remove all chances of Z having any chance to win without an all in. Are you serious? I've watched you play and you don't even use the ability effectively anyway. You sit around with like two-thousand minerals in the bank sometimes. If you're going to commit to an attack. It's obviously not going to be super early. Zergs always get one of two spine crawlers and maybe more if they see a heavy attack coming. If you remember in Brood War, they mostly held off huge attacks with four or five Sunken Colonies along with some Zerglings so they could delay until they got Lurkers. Let's see the ability removed and I'll play some Zerg. Zergs' can be aggressive but they just never are... -_- Not only that but since we're using FRB, static defense is much more effective in the early game. Also, for fun. Why not have Overlord creep spread be available when you get an Evolution Chamber just like in Heart of the Swarm for funzies.
It doesn't matter how I play. Nevertheless, I don't have enough production to spend the money on. But that is a completely different matter.
You need the ability to make both attacking units and drones. Otherwise you get behind, and you can't build fast enough early game. Hatcheries are too expensive to build early game, spine crawlers take a drone, you have no map control.
If you watch the replay of me vs you on Ohana, I build constant drones every time I get the larva in the early game. You should note that I kept up with you in worker production. It wasn't until I got queens that I managed to get ahead.
Getting rid of the ability makes it so that you just cannot defend without cutting workers. As is now, I spend all of my larva on workers just as they spawn.
If you want, I can get on NA now, and we can play a match where I just never make queens, you can do that tank push to kill the spines. I'll lose for sure. Heck, we can just play to the 10 minute mark, and we can see the number of workers and bases I had in that game compared to the last game.
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On June 27 2012 10:31 Monochromatic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 10:10 MNdakota wrote:On June 27 2012 09:36 Monochromatic wrote:On June 27 2012 08:54 Kabel wrote:
I am starting to doubt that Breed actually needs to be in the game. It feels messy and Zerg might aswell just build more hatcheries to macro better. The only nice things with Breed is that players can bring them to the front line and hatch some eggs near the enemy to get faster reinforcements. That can be fun, but people rarely uses it. People get confused by the ability and, with the hand on your heart, does it actually improve anything in the game?
But if I remove both Breed and Inject larva the Queens can only heal and use creep tumors. Won´t that feel a bit... naked?
If you remove this ability, you remove all chances of Z having any chance to win without an all in. Are you serious? I've watched you play and you don't even use the ability effectively anyway. You sit around with like two-thousand minerals in the bank sometimes. If you're going to commit to an attack. It's obviously not going to be super early. Zergs always get one of two spine crawlers and maybe more if they see a heavy attack coming. If you remember in Brood War, they mostly held off huge attacks with four or five Sunken Colonies along with some Zerglings so they could delay until they got Lurkers. Let's see the ability removed and I'll play some Zerg. Zergs' can be aggressive but they just never are... -_- Not only that but since we're using FRB, static defense is much more effective in the early game. Also, for fun. Why not have Overlord creep spread be available when you get an Evolution Chamber just like in Heart of the Swarm for funzies. If you want, I can get on NA now, and we can play a match where I just never make queens, you can do that tank push to kill the spines. I'll lose for sure. Heck, we can just play to the 10 minute mark, and we can see the number of workers and bases I had in that game compared to the last game.
That tank push is expensive and it costs a lot if it doesn't succeed. If a Zerg sees it coming, it's very easy to stop.
It's an aggressive build to hold someone into their base or even kill them if it catches them off guard.
Yes, let's play.
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On June 27 2012 06:59 Danko__ wrote:
Tashadan:
Well, arbiters are working as intended... Even tooltip says "ground units". It was changed long time ago so he can not remember.
Monochromatic:
Recal - teleport is so slow, so its not like you can harrass free. Its like 4 sec disable. Its hell long! But it will require a lot of testing i belive, as most things.
Goons - Feels much better! Just try it. Toss can harras terra now, apply some pressure. And even do some damage to not careful terrans, but its not like autowin or something. You can repair bunker and put marauders inside. Little investment + some attention is enough early game, and in midgame they NEED that range anyway. It changes PvP too, but you still can just invest in earlier reavers insteed (with range 11).
Zealots: I had no occasion to test them, but i admit it. On paper it looks way too strong, and zealots are already strong. Anyway, most of ups are experiments, so i have nothing against testing upgrades like this.
Marauder - bullshit. If you had only seen them in action then you would change your mind. 3 marauders were ripping apart 3 (2 times as costly) goons easly.They are much better fitting now, but temporary solution until we will find something better (or they will really work well).
Vikings - they require testing. I dont completly agree on ALL of their stats, but cant say how well they actually do.
Overcharge was skill i never liked. Matter of preference.
-I dont like breed overall, so i wont comment on that.
-Hydras were owning toss, and they were way too fast off creep. But i belive partially its fault of zerg macro beeing too strong.
-Banelings are not needed, i dont like them, but they are there, so you can use them.
-Never seen infestors in game, but zerg after early game could do to opponent anything he wanted.
Thats what i think or feel after some games. We still need a lot of testing.
ah i didnt know that arbiters dont cloak air units
i agree with the rest you said except the mule
i hate the mule its a skilless shit mechanic
i would prefer a scv drop (no mineral cost but supply and energy)
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Zerg dont need breed, and ofcourse after removing it we would balance it somehow, so argument "he will be too weak" is invaild. 3rd skill would be nice for queen but we need idea for that.
Zerg difficuly in play was always choices how to spend larvae. Once we will give him enough larvae to fully support anything he want, then we can as well just remove it. You let zerg drone, macro up, you will die to swarm. You pressure him, then he have to react! Argument "he cant produce atacking unit and drones" is also quite dumb. Dont shallow this race.
MNdakota:
Well, yeah, ZvT was race to dark swarm, with getting lurkers by the way. But zerg could be agressive due to very larvae efficent units early on, in smaller numbers. 7-8 lings could beat 5 rines. Anyway, agression was costly but very brutal, for zerg. Everything melted when bio/mech clashed with ling/lurker. I have even seen few busts with hydras vs bunker. Charm of zerg. You could play it many ways: tech, drone or be agressive. In SC2 droning is "much better" then in scbw.
Tashadan:
I what do you think about making mule cheaper, last shorter, and same with scan + moving DTs back to templar archives. I would love to see "allin path" removed.That would require other changes as well, but with higher value of scans, it would be harder choice to make, and you would have to drop mules more often.
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An idea to replace Breed:
Queen has "infest" ability. Queen targets an ennemy unit and infests it. A timer is started and after, say, 7 sec, the unit turns into an infested terran (or infested protoss/zerg if we can find a model) and is under your control. Infested terran works as in BW, basically a strong baneling.
So it could be good against bio balls, forcing the opponent to micro to pull out or kill the infested unit. It could also be used against an isolated unit (a marine at a xel naga or denying a base), then you can save the infested terran for latter use.
Tell me what you think...
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Some time ago i was thinking about making larvae inject to be castable on unit (only), and killing unit after duration and dropping few larvaes around, but i gave up on that. Your idea may have much better potential ^^, however it imho should have to meet few conditions:
1. Time will have to be long enough (before turning to z side) to react, but not too long.
2. Energy cost: very high.
3. Damage: very high, to make it worth casting, and be usable vs each race, not just vs bioballs.
4. Cast range: Long enough to make possible to cast it, but short enough to allow some "interactions" from both sides. Overall, imho that would fit much better into flying caster.
5. Unit should be "armed" after some time. If you react qickly enough, you can snipe it (kill it with own units), otherwise you have to separate that unit from army. "Arming" would prevent players from just sniping them any time they want before "turning", and delay on "arming" would stop zerg from sniping this unit himself, witchout giving time for reaction (infest + snipe with hydras or mutas).
Also i would add:
6. Timed life, so you cant just turn some, and keep gathering them, after which they explode.
7. FRIENDLY FIRE
8. Remove baneling by the way.
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On June 27 2012 20:06 lithyeld wrote:
An idea to replace Breed:
Queen has "infest" ability. Queen targets an ennemy unit and infests it. A timer is started and after, say, 7 sec, the unit turns into an infested terran (or infested protoss/zerg if we can find a model) and is under your control. Infested terran works as in BW, basically a strong baneling.
So it could be good against bio balls, forcing the opponent to micro to pull out or kill the infested unit. It could also be used against an isolated unit (a marine at a xel naga or denying a base), then you can save the infested terran for latter use.
Tell me what you think...
No.
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On June 28 2012 03:06 MNdakota wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 20:06 lithyeld wrote:
An idea to replace Breed:
Queen has "infest" ability. Queen targets an ennemy unit and infests it. A timer is started and after, say, 7 sec, the unit turns into an infested terran (or infested protoss/zerg if we can find a model) and is under your control. Infested terran works as in BW, basically a strong baneling.
So it could be good against bio balls, forcing the opponent to micro to pull out or kill the infested unit. It could also be used against an isolated unit (a marine at a xel naga or denying a base), then you can save the infested terran for latter use.
Tell me what you think... No.
You have convinced me.
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On June 28 2012 03:26 Danko__ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 03:06 MNdakota wrote:On June 27 2012 20:06 lithyeld wrote:
An idea to replace Breed:
Queen has "infest" ability. Queen targets an ennemy unit and infests it. A timer is started and after, say, 7 sec, the unit turns into an infested terran (or infested protoss/zerg if we can find a model) and is under your control. Infested terran works as in BW, basically a strong baneling.
So it could be good against bio balls, forcing the opponent to micro to pull out or kill the infested unit. It could also be used against an isolated unit (a marine at a xel naga or denying a base), then you can save the infested terran for latter use.
Tell me what you think... No. You have convinced me.
He told me to "tell me what you think" and I did. 
Just no, please.
Don't remove the Baneling either. The idea with the Infested Terran is too awkward and would be too complicated to use.
I don't see anything wrong with Breed at the moment. Why are we trying to change it in the first place?
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Well, i like idea, just not sure if queen is best caster for that. I think that may be good idea for (late game) caster of any race. Working kinda like this widow mine (which on its own, as unit is not so impressive...).
I hate banelings. They are one of worse things sc2 introduced. "Trade" lurker/baneling is almost as bad as reaver/collosus.
Why i dont like breed? I will start with: why i dont like larvae inject.
Sc2 zerg is SHALLOW, 1 dimensional race. Why everyone call it macro race? Cause it is macro race! Only GOOD way of playing it is DRONING, DRONING, DRONING. In BW zerg really could tech super quickly, which provided really scary, effective options (lair => lurker/muta/drops), could focus hard on macro with 3hatch before pool, 5hatch before gas etc. Could be agressive, cause larvae expensive units were very strong, especially early on. Lings raped so hard in small numbers.
1.
Larvae inject made 2 ways of playing so much less efective (to balance that out ofcourse). Zerg can drone up so easly, so cheap with that, so he cant have so larvae efficent units early on nor ability to quickly tech (and this is even delayed by NEED of building queen to keep up with opponent).
Thats one of reasons i dont like, and wont like any "macro mechanics" lowering/removing zerg hunger for larvae (and expand). That was aspect which made this race so unique. In BW there were no 3base zerg vs 2base toss, there were 5hatch zerg vs 2base toss or so.
2.
Breed requires almost no skill to use compared to inject. Inject at least had to be timed well, now you can cast it now or then, w/e. You dont have larvae? 3 queens with full energy = instant 12 eggs. Would be cool to have "macro mechanic" with bit higher skill celling.
Oh, and btw, Kabel, you said nobody uses that to support atacks with "proxy eggs". I did, from very beginning. Dont you remember my first hydra pushes with 2 queens and proxy eggs? Honestly that works like proxy pylons, im not big fan of it either. + loosing these pylons = loose of half production.
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On June 28 2012 03:56 Danko__ wrote:
Well, i like idea, just not sure if queen is best caster for that. I think that may be good idea for (late game) caster of any race. Working kinda like this widow mine (which on its own, as unit is not so impressive...).
I hate banelings. They are one of worse things sc2 introduced. "Trade" lurker/baneling is almost as bad as reaver/collosus.
Why do you hate Banelings?
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They require micro from opponents and stuff.
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No comment... 
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EPT
