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On June 28 2012 03:56 Danko__ wrote:
Well, i like idea, just not sure if queen is best caster for that. I think that may be good idea for (late game) caster of any race. Working kinda like this widow mine (which on its own, as unit is not so impressive...).
I hate banelings. They are one of worse things sc2 introduced. "Trade" lurker/baneling is almost as bad as reaver/collosus.
Why i dont like breed? I will start with: why i dont like larvae inject.
Sc2 zerg is SHALLOW, 1 dimensional race. Why everyone call it macro race? Cause it is macro race! Only GOOD way of playing it is DRONING, DRONING, DRONING. In BW zerg really could tech super quickly, which provided really scary, effective options (lair => lurker/muta/drops), could focus hard on macro with 3hatch before pool, 5hatch before gas etc. Could be agressive, cause larvae expensive units were very strong, especially early on. Lings raped so hard in small numbers.
1.
Larvae inject made 2 ways of playing so much less efective (to balance that out ofcourse). Zerg can drone up so easly, so cheap with that, so he cant have so larvae efficent units early on nor ability to quickly tech (and this is even delayed by NEED of building queen to keep up with opponent).
Thats one of reasons i dont like, and wont like any "macro mechanics" lowering/removing zerg hunger for larvae (and expand). That was aspect which made this race so unique. In BW there were no 3base zerg vs 2base toss, there were 5hatch zerg vs 2base toss or so.
2.
Breed requires almost no skill to use compared to inject. Inject at least had to be timed well, now you can cast it now or then, w/e. You dont have larvae? 3 queens with full energy = instant 12 eggs. Would be cool to have "macro mechanic" with bit higher skill celling.
Oh, and btw, Kabel, you said nobody uses that to support atacks with "proxy eggs". I did, from very beginning. Dont you remember my first hydra pushes with 2 queens and proxy eggs? Honestly that works like proxy pylons, im not big fan of it either. + loosing these pylons = loose of half production.
mule requires not much skill aswell
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On June 28 2012 06:11 TaShadan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 03:56 Danko__ wrote:
Well, i like idea, just not sure if queen is best caster for that. I think that may be good idea for (late game) caster of any race. Working kinda like this widow mine (which on its own, as unit is not so impressive...).
I hate banelings. They are one of worse things sc2 introduced. "Trade" lurker/baneling is almost as bad as reaver/collosus.
Why i dont like breed? I will start with: why i dont like larvae inject.
Sc2 zerg is SHALLOW, 1 dimensional race. Why everyone call it macro race? Cause it is macro race! Only GOOD way of playing it is DRONING, DRONING, DRONING. In BW zerg really could tech super quickly, which provided really scary, effective options (lair => lurker/muta/drops), could focus hard on macro with 3hatch before pool, 5hatch before gas etc. Could be agressive, cause larvae expensive units were very strong, especially early on. Lings raped so hard in small numbers.
1.
Larvae inject made 2 ways of playing so much less efective (to balance that out ofcourse). Zerg can drone up so easly, so cheap with that, so he cant have so larvae efficent units early on nor ability to quickly tech (and this is even delayed by NEED of building queen to keep up with opponent).
Thats one of reasons i dont like, and wont like any "macro mechanics" lowering/removing zerg hunger for larvae (and expand). That was aspect which made this race so unique. In BW there were no 3base zerg vs 2base toss, there were 5hatch zerg vs 2base toss or so.
2.
Breed requires almost no skill to use compared to inject. Inject at least had to be timed well, now you can cast it now or then, w/e. You dont have larvae? 3 queens with full energy = instant 12 eggs. Would be cool to have "macro mechanic" with bit higher skill celling.
Oh, and btw, Kabel, you said nobody uses that to support atacks with "proxy eggs". I did, from very beginning. Dont you remember my first hydra pushes with 2 queens and proxy eggs? Honestly that works like proxy pylons, im not big fan of it either. + loosing these pylons = loose of half production. mule requires not much skill aswell
Someone who uses both skills more often is going to get more out of it compared to those who forget about it.
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Tashadan:
Yeah, sure. All 3 races in sc2 are 1 dimensional. Zerg is macro race, macroing its way to victory with "very hard", nonforgiving mechanic (which honestly is just brainless time consumer requiring just getting habbit). Terran is "Agressive race". With many early/mid game options and worst lategame, worst "macro" potential, but very forgiving macro. And toss is "tech race" or relies on timing atacks with quite a flexible, versalite chrono.
You cant be good zerg witchout good injects, you cant be good terran witchout agression, and you cant be good toss witchout good timings. As zerg you dont need goodly micro (except zvz), as terran you dont need perfect mule drops (lol), as toss you just need to have good composition in good time + decent forcefields.
I tried to experiment with CD on mule when i was working on my mod, and that didnt work. I was only thinking that increasing value of scans could force terrans to make harder decisions.
Imho there is no need to force players to learn macro unnecesary macro mechanics. Let them spend APM on more important things. Multipronged atacks, agression, expanding. Not clicking around in own base, droning, injecting...
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To be honest, making those abilities (CB/Breed and MULE) on cool down would actually make some sense.
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Oh, well its quite smartly thought in this tread. Mule on cd and separate energy on scans. Its possibly something worth discussion.
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yeah cool down for every macro skill might be nice cause it punishes people not using it more
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Check this custom game out if you have time, it's really well thought out and blizzard could learn a lot from this guy.
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They make the game too volatile as is. They either need modification or removal. TLBS all have talked about the volatility and how it discourages comebacks.
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Things I consider:
- MULES Many reason why I don´t like the Mules has already been stated by other writers in this thread. I will probably replace it with Calldown SCV again. The SCV costs 50 minerals, 50 energy and has a cooldown. The ability just increases the ability for Terran to produce workers, even at remote bases. Protoss has chrono boost, Zerg has larvas and Terran can have calldown SCV. None of them gives you free money. They do however let you make workers more efficently.
The calldown SCV can be used to drop reinforcements at the front (to repair your siege tanks, bulid turrets etc), it can be used to take proxy bases in other parts of the map and you can "boost" scv production at bases far away by dropping them there. Earlier in the MOD the calldowned SCV had a buff that lasted 30 seconds that gave them no vision. So you could not scan an enemy base and drop an SCV to scout even more.
Orbital can use Scan, calldown SCV and perhaps Supply drop.
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- Add the Firebat to replace Marauder. The Firebat can get a little twist. It serves a purpose for the Terran army. A melee unit that can deal with enemy melee units. The problem with the Firebat in BW was that it was only viable in one matchup: TvZ. It was completely useless vs Protoss and Terran. I would like to make them useful in other matchups aswell.
The main problem with them in BW vs protoss was that firebats died so quickly due to the low HP. And vs Terran they died cause they could never reach the enemy army.
One thing I consider is to give them more HP (either from start or from upgrade), perhaps 100 (!?), If the unit is good in itself, perhaps a Terran player can add some Firebats in their mech army, to keep them in front to engage enemy zealots.
But this would still make them useless in TvT, since they would die from 2 spider mines or 2 siege tank shots.
One way to approach that problem would be to add some kind of simple "special armor ability." Firebats only takes 25 damage from splash effects: - spider mines, siege tanks, reavers, banelings? The firebat can be used to storm the enemy tank line and clear minefields. They soak up tankfire and damage, while your own siege tanks moves closer to the enemy and sieges in range.
Of course this needs to be balanced. But to make the Firebat a unit that can tank damage (in some regard) would probably increase its viability in different matchups.
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Breed - As you said Danko, you used to use Queens to make early pushes. Move the Queens out of position and hatch eggs outside the enemy base. But besides these early attacks, players dont use Breed so often. At least not to go to different positions to lay the eggs. The thought was to give Zerg the ability to hatch units anywhere they move the Queen. (Something I thought would be useful)
But the truth is that most people still have them in their bases, near the hatcheries,. They lay the eggs on the ground inside their base and get angry casue they can´t select the eggs via hatcheries. Many newcomers, who read this thread and writes to me ingame and wants to try it gets frustrated over Breed. So right now I am not sure what to do with it. Maybe tweak it in some way, or remove it to make only Queens focus on spreading creep. (Perhaps make creep spread require more APM and attention, if each tumor only spawns a small amount of creep.)
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If you have any suggestions on these things, as usual write your ideas here in the thread.
I read all posts, but I try to aim for the most simple, clean and elegant solutions.
Btw, have you got the new patch uploaded on NA? I havent heard anything from Laertes since I sent him the update for ca 4 days ago T_T
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He said he updated NA. I think the inject mechanic was fine as is and I heard people complainning about the queen thing too, really annoying to have to keep selecting all the eggs with ctrl or whatever. I don't like your firebat TvT idea, you're making the unit too complicated, not every unit needs to be viable in every matchup vs every composition in my opinion.
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i dont think that every unit needs its purpose in all matchups... its fine to have certain units only viable at 1 or 2 matchups
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The issue I have with breed is that in SC2,
25 energy+time=4 larva
In Starbow,
25 energy=1 larva instantly
So while spawning queens with enough energy to make a full larva round is cool and all, it ends up becoming not worth the supply to have such low production increase. Building another Hatchery is about the same as making 2 queens, costs no supply, and will continue to make a new larva every ~15 seconds (as opposed to one every 25 from a queen), with the only requirement being that you use it before 3 are birthed at the hatchery. Unless I've missed something entirely, there's just no mathematical reason to use 4 supply on a (barely) mobile production building that makes less larva than a building that "auto-casts", and still rewards good economy management.
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3 players in the channel noone wants to play  iam a sad panda
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I still don't understand the reasoning behind some of these changes.
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might it be usefull to use irc? cause bnet chat sucks and people hardly use it OO
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Yeah, that would be good. I have my IRC client up all the time. Try going onto #Starbow on quakenet.org.
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iam in
hope more europeans will join
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EPT
