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Suggestion: Make the Mule a cooldown based ability

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merz
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
Sweden2760 Posts
December 15 2010 01:30 GMT
#1
Hi everyone! If this is the wrong forum I apologize, I've done some searching and from what I can tell, all the suggestions are posted here. If I somehow got it wrong anyways, feel free to remove this thread/move it.

I've had this suggestion in my mind for quite some time, but i've never really bothered to sit down and actually write about it. As a terran player since the beginning of the beta, I've always felt that way mule works could be changed. In my opinion, the mule should be based off a cooldown, rather than the energy. The energy should still be in the game, although it should be entirely devoted to calling down supply depots and scans.

To start things off, what I'm suggesting is this

- Make the mule dependent on a cooldown timer that unlocks at the same rate of which the accumilation of 50 energy would take now. Remove the energy cost, but limit the terran to only call down 1 mule per cooldown/CC. In other words, if the terran player has 2 OC:s, he'll only be able to call down 2 Mules every time the cooldown is finished. The energy on the OC remains, due to reasons stated above.

How does this effect the game, is it a nerf, is it a buff?

I've been thinking through this question a lot. And from what I can tell, this isn't actually a huge nerf per se. What it would do is that it would punish the player who mess up their CD timings (much like a zerg player who misses out on a larva inject), but it also kinda deals with the whole terran being able to call down 8 mules at once thing in mid to late game, making their mineral income shoot through the roof for an extended period of time. Also, the benefits from grabbing a gold would be somewhat equalized across the races as the terran would no longer be able to grab a gold expansion as third, save up 3-4 mules and then drop them all on the gold just to get a sick window where their macro is unreal. This does of course impact the game kind of negatively for our casual terran player, as I see this change as something that would help separating good terran players from the bad ones. Basically what it does is making missing a mule sooo much less forgiving than what it is now.

One could argue that even missing a mule now is terrible. This is true, but only to a certain extent. Again, by comparing it to the Larva inject ability; If you miss an inject, thats an inject you'll never get back. If you miss a mule, you're missing a window of oppertunity where you economy could've been stronger, but you can actually make up for some of that by just dropping two mules at once later on. Zerg can't inject twice, to do that they need an additional hatchery. Do you see my point?

What about the scan? Terran players will have even more maphacking abilities now!

I think that the scan should be something separated from the mule mainly due to how intel is gathered in Sc2.

First off

1. The information you get off your initial worker scout is very limited. For example, a scv/probe/drone is no longer as fast as a zergling, it's noticeably slower than a non-speed zergling on creep. This is troublesome, because if we take BW in comparison, spending time on actually microing your worker was worth something. It had the same speed as zerling/marine/zealot - If microed properly you could gain even more value of intel. Versus lets say zerg in Sc2, this is close to impossible, the zerglings catch up even when they're not on creep. Also, the trick was to micro your scout properly while doing everything else that was necessary in your base. It was one of the things that truley separated good players from bad players.

2. The intel to be gained midgame for a terran often relies on getting air units. Which basically means an early starport is almost always the best option if you're opting for intel, but can also come back biting you in the arse. There's no way around this if you're up against a good player. Xel Naga towers has limited the midgame worker scout tremendously, everything is so much faster than the worker so that even if you let it slip a little too far out on the map, it would still die before obtaining any information. Zerg & Protoss have ways around this, these are observers and overlords/overseers. Terran has the scan, but it's on a fixed duration of time, you can only check one or two places at once, and it's wasting a potential mule. Both the observer & overlord/overseer are permanent scouts that can be anywhere on the map for as long as you want, they're so much more valueable than a scan.

I feel like the terran is at disadvantage in the Economy vs Intel department. At least past the early game. By nerfing our economy abilites in the midgame (limiting it to 1 mule per CD) and giving us more energy for scan, I think it'd add an interesting element to the game. Terrans right now are often choosing to just drop that mule, because most of the time, the scan is not worth it. The point where you can actually scan and not feel anxious about it, is when you are fully saturated and on at least 2-3 OC's.

Also, I feel like this needs to be emphasized, giving us more scans doesn't mean that the element of surprise is taken away from either protoss nor zerg. Zergs have very capable ways of hiding their tech (Cancelling a building, build on the creep thats left from it, drop creep with an overlord on an awkard spot, lay down a spire) The protoss can basically hide any tech where they want as long as they make a pylon to provide for it.

I admit it forces the zerg & protoss to be a little more creative when they want to rely on elements of surprise. If you don't want your DT-tech to be scouted, don't build it right next to your nexus or expo, same thing goes for the zerg.

This does not mean that the terran player all of a sudden is immune to cheese either. A scan can miss, buildings can be cancelled, scans can be thrown at the wrong time (Like when a DT is seconds away from your base) You will still need a raven or an ebay, or both, to be completly safe from the types of shenningans that can be thrown at you.

To summarize what I think this will do;

- Allow the Terran players to play a more reactionary style, rather than being blindly overly safe or just trust in their all-ins.

- It punishes players who can't keep up with their Mule CD's, missing a mule should hurt just as much as missing a larva inject.

- It fixes the sometimes ridiculous income advantages terrans can gain in the midgame if they take i.e a gold, and somewhat equalizes the worth of a gold expansion for the races.

Other things worth thinking about

If this was to be implented, would it require a change to let's say, how fast energy is accumlated on the OC? Maybe slowing down the process a little would help in the way that terrans wouldn't have 4 scans ready super early.


Feel free post thoughts/changes to the idea. Would be awesome if we could keep this flame free. It's merely a suggestion, nothing I feel is an absolute must, and for the record Im not saying the game is imbalanced in favor of the zergs or the protoss, just saying it might add another element to the way terran is being played

I have not discussed this seriously with anyone else before, so I might have a limited view becuase of a few things, such as me being a Terran player, which by default makes me biased even If I try not to be.

That's why I want to hear what you guys think about it, i'm sure it will lead to ideas/views I haven't even considerd. Zerg players & Protoss players; if you feel this is a huge buff for the terrans and that it will break the game, please say so, but it would be awesome if it was followed up by a motivation.

Please discuss!
Winners never quit, quitters never win.
ROOTheognis
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States4482 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-15 01:37:08
December 15 2010 01:36 GMT
#2
Aren't most terrans suffering vs toss nowadays ??(yea i know ... besides GSL for the most part. but most of them lose just because they play poorly/make more mistakes or lose to all ins). And this change would not help with any of these things..

... I don't really think the mule is wat is broken tbh and I don't think this change would help. Altering the mule to have a cooldown would only compounds itself as the game drags on and would make the terran endgame even more difficult.
If you avoid your weakness, it will remain your weakness. www.twitter.com/#!/rootheognis Follow me!
Firereaver
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
India1701 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-15 01:51:44
December 15 2010 01:38 GMT
#3
Actually a nice idea imo... Should write it on the Blizzard forums I think.^^
Like the detail in the OP. Very persuausive.
This will ensure less SCV-allining, pretty sure. Well done, sir. Atleast as an idea I think it certainly is an excellent one. Dunno the full implications it may have though.
"They drone drone drone , me win" - JangMinChul(Iron/oGsMC)
Stiver
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada285 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-15 01:40:41
December 15 2010 01:39 GMT
#4
I would say keep the MULE the way it is, just make it so there is a 90 seconds real time, so when one MULE finishes you can drop another one.

Would fix the ability to just drop as many as possible when your macro slips and simply not be behind anymore. While keeping the energy cost makes it so Scans aren't suddenly always available
"The most difficult thing in the world is to know how to do a thing and to watch someone else do it wrong without comment."
Uhh Negative
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1090 Posts
December 15 2010 01:39 GMT
#5
I believe this has been brought up before. I fully support the notion that MULEs should be put on cooldown as zerg cannot miss an inject (besides for a creep tumor near the beginning of the game when you can't support that much larvae) and protoss is punished to a lesser extent for not using chronoboost. Having MULEs without cooldown allows you to have a huge influx of minerals with pretty much no planning. Besides, having another thing for terrans to pay attention to while they prepare their all-in would be good. <----- totally kidding about last sentence
dthree
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia150 Posts
December 15 2010 01:41 GMT
#6
This has been mentioned about 20 times before. Can't do it unless you do same to chronoboost
Grend
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
1600 Posts
December 15 2010 01:41 GMT
#7
I think suggestion threads get auto closed, since they are basically useless since they so rarely get implemented, or acted upon. Would be great though.
♞ Against the Wind - Bob Seger ♞
Grildrak
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden44 Posts
December 15 2010 01:41 GMT
#8
That would save all OC energy for scans without sacrificing economy, sure it would be nice early game but it would weaken T even more late game And T late game is bad as it is
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge
gogogadgetflow
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2583 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-15 01:44:45
December 15 2010 01:41 GMT
#9
"Posting that you wish the rules were changed has no value. Because the rules are the rules. It doesn't matter how you want them to be, because you will not get them changed."

-Chill

Just for general racial balancing purposes I think putting MULE on CD would have been the obvious choice for blizz. My guess is they wanted each macro mechanic to be a little bit unique, and the ability to stockpile Mules/scans/supply in the same energy sink was one way to satisfy that. As long as it's not game-breaking, and you'd have trouble making that case, it's here to stay as is.
bkrow
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia8532 Posts
December 15 2010 01:42 GMT
#10
I enjoy the effort put into this write up; i fear the thread may turn into a MULE OP whine thread - hopefully it doesn't.

OT: the cooldown idea for the MULE is not a new suggestion, but i don't think it has been flashed out as much as above; so well done for that. I think having MULE's on a cooldown ability would be a pretty good idea - i like the comparison you draw between larva inject and MULE and their fundamentals should be based on the same idea.

The MULE is basically Terrans response to chronoboosted probves and larva injected drones; i would assume blizzard has put a lot of work into the mechanics between allowing economic equilibrium (for the most part) between these dynamics - so i would imagine a lot of work would have to go into calculating the exact implication of any change.
In The Rear With The Gear .. *giggle* /////////// cobra-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA!!!!
LittLeD
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden7973 Posts
December 15 2010 01:42 GMT
#11
Has been suggested alot before and yes its a very legitamate suggestion.
I agree to your post and I really think Blizzard should impliment this
☆Grubby ☆| Tod|DeMusliM|ThorZaiN|SaSe|Moon|Mana| ☆HerO ☆
Stiver
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada285 Posts
December 15 2010 01:43 GMT
#12
I don't think it works the same as Chronoboost at all/needs to put that on a cooldown. Mostly because you can only chronoboost one thing at a time. If you want to make something build faster you have to wait for one chronoboost to end before using the next. IT doesn't stack on each other. Where throwing down a MULE or 4 the benefits all stack on eachother at once.

"The most difficult thing in the world is to know how to do a thing and to watch someone else do it wrong without comment."
QuothTheRaven
Profile Joined December 2008
United States5524 Posts
December 15 2010 01:47 GMT
#13
I'd really like to see this implemented. It'd make Terran macro a little less forgiving and easy, while also giving more scouting options. Anything that helps stop cheesy 1-base allins is a plus in my book.
. . . nevermore
iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-15 01:47:58
December 15 2010 01:47 GMT
#14
Here's what happens when you use the search box! 'Mule Cooldown' =

Starcraft 2:
Suggestion: Make the Mule a cooldown based ability meRz 11 384 Dec 15, 2010
Stiver
Closed:
[Suggestion] Make Mules Have a Cooldown
Belligerent 2 142 Nov 18, 2010
Plexa
Blogs:
Do mules need a cooldown? sleepingdog 12 698 Aug 20, 2010
Lysis
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
Sockpuppet
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
119 Posts
December 15 2010 01:47 GMT
#15
This would mean trans could call in supply drops every 50 energy PLUS get mules so it would be basically like getting 400 minerals for free every 50 energy.
Noam
Profile Joined September 2010
Israel2209 Posts
December 15 2010 01:48 GMT
#16
While the idea is not new it is obvious you put a lot of thought into it, I especially liked the part about slowing down the energy accumulation which many other "change the MULE" posters tend to ignore.
I feel that perhaps instead of slowing it down you could cap it at 100 so no more than 2 scans can be saved to make sure the usage of cloak does not disappear from the game.

Also, this could change the usability of supply-drop in a good way IMO.
Liquipedia
Subversion
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
South Africa3627 Posts
December 15 2010 01:49 GMT
#17
Nice detailed post, but this has actually been suggest a million times before.

Chronoboosting and MULEs should have a cooldown, because you can't multiple larva inject if you miss it is basically the argument.
mrmin123 *
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
Korea (South)2971 Posts
December 15 2010 01:51 GMT
#18
It's been suggested before, but we can't do anything about it. Try the Blizzard forums.
Translator태양은 묘지위에 붉게 떠오르고 / 한낮에 찌는 더위는 나의 시련 일찌라!
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