EPT[A] Starbow - Page 17
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nucLeaRTV
Romania822 Posts
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On June 23 2012 02:21 nucLeaRTV wrote: Workers are not freaking zerglings or marines or It's funny because I MAIN ZERG. It was an example... | ||
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nucLeaRTV
Romania822 Posts
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On June 23 2012 02:32 nucLeaRTV wrote: It doesn't matter, the point stands. At least you stopped arguing and realized it's the correct way. Ok then... you can think that. EDIT: They're workers, they're supposed to be equal. I didn't hear Blizzard say they had to be the same... LOL! | ||
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Syphon8
Canada298 Posts
On June 23 2012 02:21 nucLeaRTV wrote: Workers are not freaking zerglings or marines or Because units should have alternative roles that excellent players can take advantage of through control. Workers in BW had very different stats. | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On June 23 2012 03:24 Syphon8 wrote: Because units should have alternative roles that excellent players can take advantage of through control. Workers in BW had very different stats. Yeah I have no idea where he is getting these ideas from... | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
The problem with FRB: Each base requires 24+3 workers to be fully saturated. There is no reason to have more than 4 bases anyway because 4x27 workers are half your supply. The income in the start is really slow, meaning that its a very long early game with a slow income acceleration. (Since each worker generates so little income per minute) The problem with the "BW-model": Players get extremely rich once they grab the third base. Each base generates to much money. (Even though the amount is still lower than an SC2 base, its still to much.) Unspendable amounts if you reach 4 or 5 bases. The optimal would be: A faster income acceleration at the start. More money in the beginning = more options. Each fully saturated base generates less income compared to a SC2 base, Each base requires "fewer" workers, meaning that players are able to expand more. (And have supply for workers) I think games which involves many bases on both sides tends to be funniest to both play and watch. Thats why I try to implement aspects of area control. It shall be a risk to take an expansion, but you will have acess to the right tools so you can defend it properly. Something I feel SC2 lacks and BW has plenty of. I ain´t satisfied with either of the two models. But with some tweaking I think we will hit jackpot ^^ | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On June 23 2012 03:41 Kabel wrote: FRB and the "BW-model" has been uploaded for some days now. The problem with FRB: Each base requires 24+3 workers to be fully saturated. There is no reason to have more than 4 bases anyway because 4x27 workers are half your supply. The income in the start is really slow, meaning that its a very long early game with a slow income acceleration. (Since each worker generates so little income per minute) Remember that you do not have to have 27 workers at a base. 16 workers will do you the job. And besides, no one is going to have fully saturated bases up to four. The income in the start of the game is not slow at all. Do people not know how to make workers constantly? In fact, the reason why it's more fun with the lower income is because you don't get the "deathball" as quickly and fights happen in between. Not only that but expanding becomes more important and you want "expanding to be easier" which is already. I don't see the problem currently. Since you have such little income at the start of the game. Micro becomes much more important and not only that but static defense is more powerful. Currently, I think the way the mod is going with the resources is dumb and I don't think it should be that way. At least, keep FRB variants on the NA server. With what we have now, you have too many options to do anything. You gain army too quickly and that makes the game stupid and it's getting null. I can support like three barracks with not even 12 workers on one base and still manage to not skip making SCVs, marines and supply depots. Please, I guarantee you that you'll have a better experience with FRB and a long with many others that are following the mod. On June 23 2012 03:41 Kabel wrote: A faster income acceleration at the start. More money in the beginning = more options. Each fully saturated base generates less income compared to a SC2 base, Each base requires "fewer" workers, meaning that players are able to expand more. (And have supply for workers) I think games which involves many bases on both sides tends to be funniest to both play and watch. Thats why I try to implement aspects of area control. It shall be a risk to take an expansion, but you will have acess to the right tools so you can defend it properly. Something I feel SC2 lacks and BW has plenty of. I ain´t satisfied with either of the two models. But with some tweaking I think we will hit jackpot ^^ The income with FRB is motherfucking perfect! In fact, you get the same amount of income in Brood War but since workers mine faster in StarCraft 2, it adds up to being the same in Brood War but people don't realize it because workers actually mine faster in StarCraft 2. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uIuJ3.jpg) You don't gain income too fast, or too slow. It's in the right place!  Less income = expansions are more important, therefore logically. Someone is going to take more bases. Then since they're less units on the field. Area control units become much more effective a long with static defense. No one in FRB is ever going to go above 40 workers. It just really never happened. Unless of course, both players are turtling and being boring overall to watch. Then of course, you're going to have more expansions because the income is less. Expanding becomes much more natural and obvious to new players. FRB is exactly what you're looking for but you have no idea at the moment. I still don't know why you can't see it but this is it. I am serious, I want this mod to succeed because it is FUN. Now with FRB, it is even more fun. Micro is actually viable. To do. If you remember in Brood War. Rarely did either player get to 200/200 supply. Not only did it take forever with the income rate, but it was god awfully hard to control and execute perfectly. Disclaimer: Those who read this have to understand that this is my opinion and I am very open minded when it comes to these kinds of things so don't get insulted. I am not afraid to give my dead honest opinion. Instead, read it and understand it and take it for granted. TL;DR: FRB was way better for Starbow. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
In FRB a worker generates ca 30-38 minerals per minute. In BW, each worker generated ca 55-60 minerals per minute. This means that just sending a few workers to mine on a new expansion has a (decent) effect on your economy. An expansion would simply start paying of more quicker. To expand in FRB is a really long and expensive process. Its true that it has to be done. But the amount of time it takes before the expansion starts to pay of is very long and very costly, due to the slow income by each worker. Expanding requires that you spend a large percentage of your total economy in doing it. (If you go from 1 base to 2 bases.) Since players have so limited income with 1 base, there aint that much money over for teching or building army. Just building base defence to protect the expansion. The three pillars of the game: Spend money on army, spend money on technology, spend economy on more economy. You can´t maximize all three at the same time. But you shall always be able to spend atleast some money on each of them. Right now, spending money on more money is expensive. That limits your other options. That limits your offensive capability. From the games we played on EU atleast, players seemed to stay very defensive. Each player has so few units in the first 8 minutes of the game. Why risk loosing them when they are so expensive to replace? After players expanded, they started investing in technology and army. Mutalisks came into play like 13-14 minutes into the game. And to observe such a game felt very lame. Imagine if this ever gets casted in a hobby tournament, I fear that the entertainment value will be low. : / With this being said, I think the games generally were very entertaining 16 minutes and later. When players got more bases, expanded everywhere etc. Maybe you had other experiences on the NA server with the games people played there. I think the FRB has potential, but it needs to be tweaked in some way. Some suggestions: The build time of a base is reduced from 100 seconds to.. lets say 80. The build time of workers are decreased from 17 to 15. Or that each base only has 6 mineral patches and each worker harvests 5 minerals. This would make each worker slightly more efficent. And each base requires less workers. And it still keeps the income per base lower compared to SC2. If people here have any ideas, please share them On June 23 2012 05:38 Laertes wrote: Okay, so I am going to put FRB on every Starbow map, cause I think dakota has a point, let's just try it to see how it goes on NA, I'm still undecided, but I'd like to integrate the FRB system into the mod. I thought you had both uploaded on NA? One named Starbow and one named Starbow FRB? If not, feel free to do it | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
Of course taking an expansion is going to be a risk. Someone who realizes that and takes advantage of killing you is strategy. They are being rewarded for being a smarter player than the other. Some players may want to play more defensive which is fine. It's just a different play style and how people enjoy the game. I am assuming that people play much differently on the EU side of things because everything you're saying isn't a problem on the NA side. It isn't very expensive and hard to expand in FRB in the first place. All you do is stop making units for about 10 seconds and then put down the base and defend it. Unless of course, you're being more offensive and keeping him from expanding while expanding yourself. It's strategy. It's a development process when setting up a new base. Either you can make bases last a little bit longer by putting more minerals on the nodes themselves (which is an easy fix by the way). Because I don't feel like the problem is FRB right now. I feel like it's the players fault for not having a strong economy. They just don't know how to play? (LOL!) They're obviously having a hard timing making workers for some reason. Just don't queue up more than two workers and you can do so much more. It's just the basics of macro mechanics. I for one, enjoy watching the FRB style and a long with playing it. As for now, FRB is where it's at and I'm going to continue playing it because I enjoy it. You can obviously have a different version of EU while us NA people can play on FRB. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On June 23 2012 06:09 Laertes wrote: Alright, so I have an interesting idea. Here is what I did dakota; I gave Daybreak, Ohana, and Taldarim FRB. I left Devolution and Kaerpasir alone. We are going to make 20 something odd rotational vods, record Ohana, then, Tald, then Kaer, then Devo, then Daybreak. We see how FRB plays out with all of them with FRB, and how it plays out on bw mock, then we analyze where each system falters, and make our OWN system, so as to accomodate starbow in and of itself. I still think FRB is more solid than something we could ever make. Which is why it was so successful even with vanilla StarCraft 2. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
The main reason is that the current Dragoon have been "stalkeraized." They are weaker, are fast, have blink and can be warped in. They are fat and clumpsy and try to fit in the role of a mobile harassing unit. The stalker themselves does that job perfectly. The "real" dragoon is a powerhouse. A mean machine that takes shit from no one. Earlier in this mod dragoons have been much stronger, but due to the power of warp in and blink I have nerfed them. The defenders of the Dragoon want it to remove blink, maybe make it able to not warp in, and make them stronger in all areas. Plus that it is such an iconic unit that looks really good. An old fan-favourite doing comeback in this game.. And the nice blue goo when it dies.. aaahhh.. Personally I think the Dragoon is right now caught between two roles. It needs to choose one of them. Plus that I can´t stand the look of the stalker. But I found this skin, which makes them feel more old-school protoss: http://www.sc2mapster.com/assets/dark-protoss/files/47-templar-stalker/ People has even suggested to let both units be in the game, but having completely different roles. Let me hear your arguments and thoughts. | ||
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Monochromatic
United States997 Posts
On June 23 2012 06:29 Kabel wrote: I can lift another hot topic to this thread. Some players on EU want the Stalker back. The main reason is that the current Dragoon have been "stalkeraized." They are weaker, are fast, have blink and can be warped in. They are fat and clumpsy and try to fit in the role of a mobile harassing unit. The stalker themselves does that job perfectly. The "real" dragoon is a powerhouse. A mean machine that takes shit from no one. Earlier in this mod dragoons have been much stronger, but due to the power of warp in and blink I have nerfed them. The defenders of the Dragoon want it to remove blink, maybe make it able to not warp in, and make them stronger in all areas. Plus that it is such an iconic unit that looks really good. An old fan-favourite doing comeback in this game.. And the nice blue goo when it dies.. aaahhh.. Personally I think the Dragoon is right now caught between two roles. It needs to choose one of them. Plus that I can´t stand the look of the stalker. But I found this skin, which makes them feel more old-school protoss: http://www.sc2mapster.com/assets/dark-protoss/files/47-templar-stalker/ People has even suggested to let both units be in the game, but having completely different roles. Let me hear your arguments and thoughts. Next players will want the wraith replaced with a banshee, no. Dragoons are an iconic protoss unit, they do their job well. Protoss doesn't need to be able to harass with stalkers when they have such amazing units such as the reaver. The Dragoon isn't caught between 2 roles, unless the stalker is the same thing. Both stalkers and dragoons can defend and attack. The Dragoon is just weaker. Not having a super powerful gateway unit is good, it stops players from warping in things that are too powerful. This also encorages the Protoss to tech up for blink, so he can use his dragoons more effectivly. It sounds to me like SC2 players complaining that the game isn't like SC2, it's more BW. And I'd say that more BW is better. | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
On June 23 2012 06:35 Monochromatic wrote: It sounds to me like SC2 players complaining that the game isn't like SC2, it's more BW. And I'd say that more BW is better. It sounds like to me that players are complaining that they can't adapt to certain situations. Just because the Dragoon has a delay, doesn't mean it sucks. They should just learn how to use that effectively even though it has the attack delay. Same goes for wanting to switch from FRB. | ||
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nucLeaRTV
Romania822 Posts
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TaShadan
Germany1969 Posts
On June 23 2012 02:21 nucLeaRTV wrote: Workers are not freaking zerglings or marines or actually in bw they are not equal scvs have more health and even the mining times of probes/scvs/drones are slightly different and probes can "shoot" through allied zealots so they have a small range while the other workers are melee | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1969 Posts
On June 23 2012 06:29 Kabel wrote: I can lift another hot topic to this thread. Some players on EU want the Stalker back. The main reason is that the current Dragoon have been "stalkeraized." They are weaker, are fast, have blink and can be warped in. They are fat and clumpsy and try to fit in the role of a mobile harassing unit. The stalker themselves does that job perfectly. The "real" dragoon is a powerhouse. A mean machine that takes shit from no one. Earlier in this mod dragoons have been much stronger, but due to the power of warp in and blink I have nerfed them. The defenders of the Dragoon want it to remove blink, maybe make it able to not warp in, and make them stronger in all areas. Plus that it is such an iconic unit that looks really good. An old fan-favourite doing comeback in this game.. And the nice blue goo when it dies.. aaahhh.. Personally I think the Dragoon is right now caught between two roles. It needs to choose one of them. Plus that I can´t stand the look of the stalker. But I found this skin, which makes them feel more old-school protoss: http://www.sc2mapster.com/assets/dark-protoss/files/47-templar-stalker/ People has even suggested to let both units be in the game, but having completely different roles. Let me hear your arguments and thoughts. i think you should get the real dragoon, although i like the aiur stalker skin, back without blink and warpin but more health and firepower and range upgrade also in general i think you should reduce the dps of all units especially ranged ones by reducing the rate of fire | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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