Sounds. I was experimenting with sounds about a half of the year ago and I added BroodWar sounds in SC2. Here is the link to russian sc2 forum where you can find needed files. Also, there was a topic about it somewhere on tl.net but I can`t find it. God, it was so beautiful to hear real machine-gun sounds from marines, heavy metal sounds of sieging tanks, sounds of protoss forge and zerg hydras. I really felt much more into game while listening to those sounds. Have you thought of using that sounds in Starbow? I believe it will only make the game better.
On October 25 2012 14:52 purakushi wrote: Assuming worker build times stay equal across the 3 races, I think that before worker build times are tweaked, we should really look at minerals per trip first. ><
I was sort of reluctant to agree with this idea, simply because it feels like slowing down Z would also slow down P and T, ulitmately changing nothing in the overexpanding regard, but I'm starting to feel like this is also going to emphasize the decisions between developing an eco and building up an early army, as once you spot that your opponent is moving out, if you decided to power up, you won't be able to amass your own army in time, in return allowing for successful early pressure against Zerg. Kinda curious how it would turn out.
On October 25 2012 14:52 purakushi wrote: @SmileZerg
Well, I never said any of the queen changes would balance anything. I agree with you that the raw economy is where the problem is at. I have thought the same thing for a while. Balance and economy are two separate things, though. I mentioned the queen stuff just as a minor change for the queen itself, not for the economy, even though it plays a role in that. While 150 minerals for a 175 HP may not be too much, it is not just any 175 HP unit. The queen should be the backbone of the zerg's economy (in terms of how it can keep up with Terran and Protoss, at least before mass macro hatcheries later game). While the queen is not yet finalised with its spells and all that, we are trying to make it more interesting. With whatever those changes are, the queen becomes much more versatile. It is not meant to be a fighting unit. You're correct in that it was buffed in SC2 to deal with cheese, but it made it considerably easier for zerg just to drone. This made the queen way too versatile. While it does only a bit of DPS (4x2), 150 minerals for a 175 HP multi-spellcaster that can hit ground (tickle) and air (decent), I think that is really inexpensive. The queen needs to feel more important that you do not want it dying (or risk of), but you still have the choice to use it to defend. Anyway, it is hard to say without the overall economy being fixed "first". I'm really just saying about the feeling of the queen and its importance. In reality, it probably does very little.
Regarding worker build times, other than just it feeling weird, I do not think worker build times should differ for drones, because inject was replaced by breed. Instead of a burst of available larva, you have a constant rate (well, sometimes accelerated) of larvae coming out. This makes production a lot more like Terran and Protoss in that one or fewer amount of drones are built at once. While it may be different for lesser players for it to be at a different rate, players who stay on top of their macro and are constantly making units, they will have less of a chance for a ton of drones at the same time, unless it is from multiple hatcheries, in which I see no problem having the same build time as SCVs and probes. I think we should make the changes with what the theoretical "best" can do, right?
Assuming worker build times stay equal across the 3 races, I think that before worker build times are tweaked, we should really look at minerals per trip first. ><
Alright, these are all good points, particularly the worker build time one. In regards to Queens feeling important though, I think the fact that they are limited to one per Hatchery accomplishes that. Having them sniped is a big deal because you won't just have replacements lying around and you can't start producing extra Queens when you are running the risk of one dying until she actually bites it.
But like you said, it's hard to say much about Zerg until the economy situation is fixed.
Concerning Zerg economy and balance: A lot of Protoss (especially on NA) seem to struggle against Zerg and are complaining about their strong economy. Yesterday, as I was waiting for peoples to play Starbow, I did play a few BW’s games with a friend and asked him to go for the 4 hatch build showed by Decemberscalm. I also watched a few BW VOD in which Zerg are using a similar strategy and I tried to make a quick comparison with the replays provided by NA’s players. It might surprise you, but Zerg economy in Starbow isn’t stronger than in BW. It might be true that this build is easy to execute, but from my stand point, as long as you scout it (because others strat like 3hatch hydra or 3hatch muta doesn't requiere the same answer) it’s far from being unbeatable and you don’t have to go for 2gate pressure into Reaver to beat it. For example, Danko tried this build yesterday against me and I beat him after a FFE opening with a fast +1 speedlot timing with 6gate (it hit before the 9 minutes marks when Zerg don’t have a critical mass of hydra yet). Since he was on 4bases, he wasn’t able to defend all of them at the same time (hard to micro hydra at 3 places at once) and I did a good amount of damage as I was securing my 3rd and teching to Templars and Storm. Others opening might work too since I remember a few game of Bisu in which he used a Stargate or Templars opening against a 4hatch build.
By the way, if you look at Decemberscalm cast, you will notice that Zerg isn’t really ahead of Protoss in harvesters count. Zerg have more income because he have more base but if Protoss can secure a third (with canon + Storm or Reavers), he will almost match Zerg in income (and Protoss don’t need to be ahead in income to beat Zergs). In this game, the Protoss wasn’t able to do it (because he played very badly) but I don’t think it is impossible to take a third around the 8 minutes mark if your canons are ready in time and if you have Reaver or Storm available to defend against the first hydra bust. At this point, you want to scout what is Zerg follow up (usually lurkers or muta) and react accordingly (robot tech vs lurker and canon + archon + storm vs muta).
On October 25 2012 17:22 Jetaap wrote: Ahah nice vid. i'd really love to play some starbow again, are there any scrubs like me (havn't played sc2 for a while, and got demoted to gold ^^)
Yeaahh same basically, haven't played SC2 melee in ages. Just might give a handful EU games a shot
On October 25 2012 18:31 hipo wrote: Concerning Zerg economy and balance: A lot of Protoss (especially on NA) seem to struggle against Zerg and are complaining about their strong economy. Yesterday, as I was waiting for peoples to play Starbow, I did play a few BW’s games with a friend and asked him to go for the 4 hatch build showed by Decemberscalm. I also watched a few BW VOD in which Zerg are using a similar strategy and I tried to make a quick comparison with the replays provided by NA’s players. It might surprise you, but Zerg economy in Starbow isn’t stronger than in BW. It might be true that this build is easy to execute, but from my stand point, as long as you scout it (because others strat like 3hatch hydra or 3hatch muta doesn't requiere the same answer) it’s far from being unbeatable and you don’t have to go for 2gate pressure into Reaver to beat it. For example, Danko tried this build yesterday against me and I beat him after a FFE opening with a fast +1 speedlot timing with 6gate (it hit before the 9 minutes marks when Zerg don’t have a critical mass of hydra yet). Since he was on 4bases, he wasn’t able to defend all of them at the same time (hard to micro hydra at 3 places at once) and I did a good amount of damage as I was securing my 3rd and teching to Templars and Storm. Others opening might work too since I remember a few game of Bisu in which he used a Stargate or Templars opening against a 4hatch build.
By the way, if you look at Decemberscalm cast, you will notice that Zerg isn’t really ahead of Protoss in harvesters count. Zerg have more income because he have more base but if Protoss can secure a third (with canon + Storm or Reavers), he will almost match Zerg in income (and Protoss don’t need to be ahead in income to beat Zergs). In this game, the Protoss wasn’t able to do it (because he played very badly) but I don’t think it is impossible to take a third around the 8 minutes mark if your canons are ready in time and if you have Reaver or Storm available to defend against the first hydra bust. At this point, you want to scout what is Zerg follow up (usually lurkers or muta) and react accordingly (robot tech vs lurker and canon + archon + storm vs muta).
You know, I was actually thinking about BW, and how Zerg often used early triple expand builds in that game... perhaps this IS actually a metagame issue and Zerg economy is not overpowered right now...?
It's just that, while December did say it was still totally possible to win as Protoss, the general idea was that it was easier to play as Zerg, which is the definition of imbalance. But maybe we are being too quick to jump the gun on nerfing things instead of letting players try to figure it out, as you are the first person I've seen to even offer such a perspective.
Now that you've mentioned BW, I've got this ridiculous idea: what the game would look like if we removed the macro mechanics altogether? Would that really make the game more boring and less decision-based?
--- Queen changes I consider --- I want to strenghen the decision in spending the Queens energy. Right now, there is no conflict in that. Inject is the best spell and is so cheap. Only a few Creep tumors are spawned by the Queen. Transfuse is used occasionally. Compare it to the Orbital Command which includes 3 strong spells and the decisions regarding how to spend the energy.
I want to strengthen the local effects of a Queen. Thats a thing that seperates her from Orbital Command and Chrono Boost. She must be at a location to give an effect there. In SC2 and Starbow, she is mostly tied to hatchery due to Inject being so strong.
I will keep her at the same cost, same tier, same HP etc. But I consider to nerf her attacks in some way, since that would force Zerg to get extra defences. She is a supporter of her minions, not a fighter.
- Creep tumors have a 2x or 3x longer cooldown when they replicate themselves. In return, creep spreads a little bit faster once a tumor pops. This means that a Queen who places a tumor gains a faster benefit on the creep spread, compared to the slow tumors. Hopefully this will encourage Zerg to actively use a Queens energy to spread creep to connect the bases.
- The Queens current ability that speeds up a buildings build time is decreased to 25 energy but lasts shorter. It can be used to produce faster hatcheries, tech structures, spine crawlers etc.. It can also help morphing hatchery into lair, Hydra den into Lurker den, etc, and it can also be used on units that morph. (Hydra into Lurker, Mutalisk into Broodlord) I consider to even make it useful on hatchery eggs.
- Inject.. I think the current version of Inject (Breed) is too messy and too cheap. (25 energy) This important ability creates no conflict in the Queen energy pool. I will just adjust it a bit.
It costs 50 energy, lasts 80 seconds and spawns a larva every 18 second. (4 in total) A hatchery can only store up to 5 larvas. You can morph, research etc as normal with a hatchery. Whats the difference?
- Inject will be at its best when you are about to produce, since all larvas spawned from it will not be stored. Hence, casting it when you do not need it only gives you 2 extra larvas instead of 4.
- The more expensive energy cost will justify the stronger effect. You will not always be able to Inject, and if you do it a lot, there is no energy for the other abilities. (Compare it to Chrono boost. You do not always have energy to Chrono boost as soon as the old chrono boost ends)
- I know some of you like that Inject shuts down the other functions of the hatchery, like research, morph etc. Its cool in theory, but in reality its too annoying. Its a rule that must be explained at the start of every game. Even I, who created this limitation, tries to Inject hatcheries that are busy doing other stuff. Starcraft is an arcade game and the "rules" shall be crystal clear. Everything that often creates an error message disturbs the pace and flow of the game for players. (I know that people will eventually get used to it. But I don´t think this decision adds so much to the depth of Inject)
- How is this "deeper" than normal Inject? It requires a larger part of the energy pool, which is shared with other (hopefully) useful abilities. Zerg will not blindly use it since all larvas are not stored. Its rewarded by being used at the right occasions.
Obviously the values might need to be tweaked. The purpose is to make it last longer but more expensive, so it really has an effect on the energy pool.
I hope this will create more decisions in how to use the Queens energy and where to keep her.
- She must be more involved in the process of spreading creep. (If you want a good creap spread) - She can walk around in the base and "speed up" buildings being built and units being morphed. - She can Inject but it is more expensive and can not be done as often. (Since it lasts longer) - Every Transfuse you use when attacked means one less Inject. (Further a way to punish Zerg with early aggression)
In reality, her primary task will be to Inject. I assume that the ability to speed up buildings/units will see some play and will be the only spell that can "compete" with Inject. Some Zerg players might prefer to speed up the tech structures rather than getting extra larva for low-tier units, at the start of the game. Maybe 1 Queen will be devoted entirely to Creep spread. She will still be a unit that is kept inside the base, but she atleast has some interactions with other objects now than just the hatchery.
Furthermore, if her starting energy remains at 25 she can not Inject immediately. She can spread creep, speed up a building or wait for Inject. This would help reducing the explosive macro of early Zerg. It would also make Queens more crucial to protect. If one dies, you can´t spawn a new one and inject as soon as it pops.
I also consider to limit her energy pool to 100. Just as I have done with Orbital Command. (Nexus already has 100) This makes it harder to save up a lot of spells, since there is no cooldown on them. It would punish players who are "sloppy" with their Queens and do not use them regulary.
@Nerfing Queen Attack I stand by my suggestion to drop the AA range down to the same as the ground range. It's not necessary anymore with T1 Hydras, Scourge, and no Medivacs. The damage is so low I don't think we should bother playing with that value.
@ Creep Tumor Replication Slowed Yep, I like this. We should probably start with 2x slower and see if that has an effect before upping it more.
@ Transfuse This ability is fine. I used to think it would be nice as an AoE, but the new fast regen on Creep does that job.
@ Morphogenesis (Is that still the name you're going with?) Gotta say I still don't like this one as a single target ability. It's even more similar to Chrono Boost now with the lower energy cost... I know you had trouble with a corner of the cloud touching buildings and still increasing build speed but I think we can find a way around that. Also, it should have the ranged damage reduction. Part of the reason Chrono is deeper in Starbow is that you can use it as a combat enhancing spell by casting it on Photon Cannons.
@ New Inject The numbers all feel wrong to me for some reason. I like the higher energy cost but that's about it. I'll give it some thought.
@ Limiting Queen Energy to 100 I don't like this idea. I thought it was brilliant that the OC and Nexus both have only 100 now because they're both buildings, and it sets up a sort of unofficial "rule" that buildings with energy have 100, while units have 200. Also, OC abilities can all be used instantly in SC2 (somewhat fixed with the SCV Drop cooldown, although I'm actually not sure if I like that..?), whereas Queen abilities are local as you said, and Inject does not stack.
On October 25 2012 20:16 JohnMadden wrote: Now that you've mentioned BW, I've got this ridiculous idea: what the game would look like if we removed the macro mechanics altogether? Would that really make the game more boring and less decision-based?
For Terran and Protoss yes, absolutely. Zerg wouldn't lose much but that's because they don't have much to begin with other than Creep. Larvae mechanics have been a total crapshoot since WoL Beta. That's why we're trying to fix that right now of course.
Also for future reference, all games are decision-based. In fact the very definition of a game is "a series of interesting decisions". That's the first thing you learn in the field of game design! So if our goal is to increase depth, then anywhere we can add more decisions without causing alternative decisions to become inferior, we should be doing that.
I would like to swap that name. I used it when I uploaded the "testpatch" a few days ago.
I agree that there are some similiarites with Chrono boost, since it manipulates time. Just on different targets. I hesitate to make it an AoE-effect. It would not be such a cheap spell that can be used often. Play with the thought that chrono boost was an AoE-spell. It would be strong and fun, but the casting cost would be much higher. It would not lead to a precise form of interaction. I think the same might happen with a Zerg cloud. You want to clump up buildings and units to gain full benefit from it. And the energy cost gotta be higher and it might lead to lesser interaction between the Queen and other stuff. (Since you must not do it as often )
I am not saying no to the idea of giving it some kind of combat effect. But reducing ranged damage overlaps with Dark Swarm too much. (Unless Dark Swarm is changed, which I have actually started to consider...But thats an other subject) I rather think that creep should be the "area spell" that gives effects in combat. That would further strengthen the need of spreading creep and deploying overlords on the battlefield.
@Increasing larva spawn rate via Inject
I have also played with the though of NOT letting the Queen mess with the larva spawn rate at all. Macro hatcheries and larva management is the way to go. Instead the Queen could be the "spider in the web." She manipulates the spawn time of buildings and units and has an other role in the macro.
But I have not created any satisfieng solutions to make a Queen like that. And the concept of Inject is a thing SC2 players are familiar with. So thats why I have choosen to continue on that path.
On October 25 2012 21:10 Kabel wrote: @ Morphogenesis
I would like to swap that name. I used it when I uploaded the "testpatch" a few days ago.
I agree that there are some similiarites with Chrono boost, since it manipulates time. Just on different targets. I don´t mind making it an AoE-effect. But if I do, it would not be such a cheap spell that can be used often. Play with the thought that chrono boost was an AoE-spell. It would be strong and fun, but the casting cost would be much higher. It would not lead to a precise form of interaction. I think the same might happen with a Zerg cloud. You want to clump up buildings and units to gain full benefit from it. And the energy cost gotta be higher and it might lead to less stuff to do with the Queen. (At least not as often)
I am not saying no to the idea of giving it some kind of combat effect. But reducing ranged damage overlaps with Dark Swarm too much. (Unless Dark Swarm is changed, which I have actually started to consider...But thats an other subject) I rather think that creep should be the "area spell" that gives effects in combat. That would further strengthen the need of spreading creep and deploying overlords on the battlefield.
Yes well you know my stance on Dark Swarm on the Viper, even though I have a rule not to bring it up until HotS
But considering how Zerg works, I really think the morphspeed cloud makes more sense as an AoE. With Chrono, you're casting it on a structure, but with the Queencloud, you often want to cast it over multiple small units (eggs, cocoons, units, etc.) In fact! Sudden flash of inspiration!
What if you cast it on units BEFORE they morphed? That fixes the problem with buildings. Just cast over a few drones and then send them on their merry way!
Cast on larvae before morphing eggs, cast on lings/hydras before morphing banes/lurkers!
If we did it this way, instead of making it a cloud, we could just make it an instant "sticky" effect like fungal growth.
Edit: The only concern is morphing structures from other structures, ie, Hatch>Lair>Hive, Hydra>Lurker Den, Spire>Greater. But perhaps if we make the AoE small enough OR make the spell single-target but with "splash" like Feedback/Irradiate on units only, it could still work.
@ Creep tumor Seem like a good way to force Zerg to use. Testing it will show us if it actually work.
@ Inject Increasing the cost seem like a good idea but overall, is it a buff or a nerf to inject?
@ Morphogenesis In my opinion, Queens doesn't need a 4th abilities (casters shall have only 3 spells) and I don't like this one anyway. It's too much like Chronoboost and this kind of abilities belong to Protoss, Zerg aren't supposed to be able to manipulate time.
On October 25 2012 21:41 hipo wrote: @ Inject Increasing the cost seem like a good idea but overall, is it a buff or a nerf to inject?
Eh, who cares? We gotta get something well designed first, then we can worry about the balance of it.
@ Morphogenesis In my opinion, Queens doesn't need a 4th abilities (casters shall have only 3 spells) and I don't like this one anyway. It's too much like Chronoboost and this kind of abilities belong to Protoss, Zerg aren't supposed to be able to manipulate time.
Ghosts have 5 (well, four energy ones plus Nuke). Queens are a macro unit, they are totally justified having four or even more abilities.
Also Morphogenesis doesn't affect the concept of Time directly like Protoss is doing with Chrono Boost. It's more like some biological method involving growth steroids or nourishing chemicals that make things mutate faster. That's why, unlike Chrono Boost, it doesn't affect research or attack speed on defensive structures. But it does allow structures to complete faster, which is something Chrono can't do (makes sense as Protoss building is actually a space manipulation mechanic so there is presumably some conflict with using space and time warping abilities on the same target if you want a lore explanation).
By the way, I suggest we use Mutagen Spray as the new name.
Smile, 3 hatch before pool was metagame to 12 nexus/cc. If terran or protoss opened fast 1 base aggression during a zerg 3 hatch it left the zerg in a horrible defensive position. YouTube the game where boxer 3-0's a zerg with bunker rush. Such play isn't viable anymore
Looks to me like I should just skip queens and go for macro hatches, then add 1 queen to spread creep. creep is not really needed. most of your queen changes is just making the game easer to play with out queens.
As for Morphogenesis, Queens can't speed up a lair, Hive or grater spire. The only real use for it is to speed up a expansion building, However the issue that crushes the Morphogenesis is the abilities' range, a orbital command and a nexus can use its abilities any where instantly, the queen must move there adding a 15 to 30 sec delay. This was not a issue in SC2 b/c you would have 4 to 6 queens, but in starbow, Queens are so weak there is not point in building them in numbers. Why micro breed when a hatch will do the same thing with out micro?
On October 25 2012 23:39 WarpTV wrote: As for Morphogenesis, Queens can't speed up a lair, Hive or grater spire. The only real use for it is to speed up a expansion building, However the issue that crushes the Morphogenesis is the abilities' range, a orbital command and a nexus can use its abilities any where instantly, the queen must move there adding a 15 to 30 sec delay.
The ability is still being designed. It was intended to speed up Lair/Hive/GS and it should.
Also the Queen's abilities being local shouldn't be much of a problem if they are always in or near your base, although I did also suggest the Creep Tunnel ability in my original post to deal with that issue as well.
On October 25 2012 23:39 WarpTV wrote: As for Morphogenesis, Queens can't speed up a lair, Hive or grater spire. The only real use for it is to speed up a expansion building, However the issue that crushes the Morphogenesis is the abilities' range, a orbital command and a nexus can use its abilities any where instantly, the queen must move there adding a 15 to 30 sec delay.
The ability is still being designed. It was intended to speed up Lair/Hive/GS and it should.
Also the Queen's abilities being local shouldn't be much of a problem if they are always in or near your base, although I did also suggest the Creep Tunnel ability in my original post to deal with that issue as well.
Meorphogenisis being local is a problem, BW zergs never had one base with their all their tech in it. In a build like in 3 hatch spier 5 hatch hydra. then Hydraden is all ways build at the 3rd as part of a wall.
Meorphogenisis biggest use is speeding up an expansion building and speeding up sunkens in reaction to an mounting attack.
theorycraft time Zerg is holding the center of the map with lurk/hydra vs toss who is trying to push. Zerg has one queen is in the main, the other is at the 3rd, and zerg's 4th base is just finishing with drones rallied over, but toss has a sair clearing out overseers over zerg's 4th base. Zerg knows DTs will be there soon. Zerg's queen at his main has 75 energy that he was saving for a burst of larva. Yet he makes the decision to use Meorphogenisis on a spore and 2 sunkens at the 4th. So he plants the spores/sunkens and uses Meorphogenisis. 45 seconds later the queen gets their to cast it when the building are all most done any way.
I know not the best pitcher to pain, but it gets the point across, imagine if you had to flout a orbital command with in range of a mineral patch to use call down scv. the spell is simply not useful in practical ways
however this is the lest of the queens issues, currently there is not intensive to build them other than creep.
Queens aren't Orbital Commands, they're mobile units that move at a decent speed on Creep. Besides, you're supposed to have one at every base, if you don't that's either your fault for playing badly, or your opponent's gain for playing well by killing them.
Also the latest iteration of the spell as I just suggested it would be cast on Drones and then they would go and morph the buildings afterwards.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gQxOL.jpg)
