|
I'd like to comment on the Queen again. I've given it a lot of thought, and I've also realised that moving the Queen to tier two would just be a silly idea with that tries to dodge the problem, and not take it head on.
What does the Queen have differently than Terran or Protoss? The economic benefit severely outweighs the other options. This is not so true for the other races.
For Terran: Calling down a free scv is pretty good, but you cant do it that often and a scan can be worth its "weight" in gold. Even if you call down the scv, it's purpose does not have to be gathering minerals.
For Protoss: Chronoboosting the nexus is nice, but chronoboosting upgrades can be nicer! Ofcourse it can also be used to chronoboost production facilities.
For Zerg: Inject is both for economic purposes and army, and its equally strong. Transfuse is fun, but with the queen limit and needing the one queen with its hatchery, I don't think it is that usefull anymore, and it was niche to begin with. Boosting building time might be good on buildings like the spire, but usually zerg's problem won't be its building time. Creep tumor is good, but you won't need to cast it more than once or twice. Thus what happens: You inject all the time. To get a stronger econ, you inject the hatch, to get a better army, you inject the hatch.
Proposed change
Remove inject. Because of the way it works, it will always be too strong, or not good enough. Instead, replace it with two (2) spells.
Name: Mutate
Cost: 25 energy
Cooldown: None
Action: Mutate a unit into a drone.
Explanation: This will pretty much always be used on zerglings. Basicly, It can transform some of the larva you used on army back to drones (and even with profit in the case of zerglings). Can be used to provide a slight econ boost, to get some drones after overcommiting on zerglings or just get some army larva into drones.
Name: Hatch Twin
Cost: 75 energy
Cooldown: None
Egg Time: 7 seconds
Action: Consume a unit, after which the Queen will lay two eggs. These eggs have normal egg stats. After seven seconds, two of the previously consumed units will come out. Does not work on Massive units.
Explanation: Good spell to boost army strength slightly. Could be really good if used a lot (after a while, you could have 10 hydra's!). Because of the way it works, it does not boost your army strength significantly just after using it, but using it often could be preferred over getting drones.
These spells would mean that the queen would provide just a small boost in units, be it economically or for attacking units. The Hatch Twin spell could even mean cool block offs with the eggs, since normal eggs are quite strong defensively.
I am not entirely sure about the Mutate spell, it might be too weak. However, since it boosts economy, it will probably be used anyway. This way, it won't be the only spell you want to use anymore. However, should it prove to weak, it could work the same way as Hatch Twin, but only on drones (less awesome, since diversity in how spells work is always more interesting).
As previously stated, I think that transfuse no longer really has a role anymore. I'd suggest replacing Hatch Twin with transfuse, giving the queen a total of four spells, which all have value. (and in my opinion, equal value).
|
Some idea for a complete revamp of the Queen:
Combine Queen (not used) and Overseer (used but boring) to create a more interesting unit.
Let’s call it the Overseer too because I don’t have a better idea.
Overseer only requires pool and is morphed from an Overlord for 50/50 in 20 seconds
Same stat as current Overseer but slightly slower
Overseer start with 3 spells:
- Spam Creep Tumor - 25 energies (same as the current one with faster spread but slower replication)
- Spam Larva – 50 energy (increase spam larva rate of an hatch by 25% during 60 sec)
- Reveal – 50 energies (reveal cloaked unit around the Overseer for 20 seconds)
At Lair, Overseer gets a new passive ability:
- Creep Bleeding (same as creep generation for Overlord but work even when the Overseer is moving)
At Hive, Overseer gets a new ability:
- Nydus Spam – 125 energies (create a Nydus Worms under the Overseer, built time 5 sec)
Overseer also gain benefit from Overlord’s upgrad: Pneumatized Carapace and Ventral Sacs
Explanations:
At hatch tech, Overseer isn’t really needed but you can still make them to scout, to start spreading creep, to increase your production or even to bank some energy for more reveal usage when needed. Later, you need it because it’s your only mobile detection. At this point, you can’t spam creep tumor or larva without taking the risk of being low on energy to use Reveal (a bit like an Orbital with call-down SCV / scan). You have to take care of them constantly because otherwise, they might be sniped allowing cloaked unit like DT to do a lot of damage. It also became a nice addition to your army to provide detection and creep even when you are moving. At hive tech, it greatly increases Zerg army mobility and harassment possibility.
|
@hipo
nice idea for overseer but require 3 psi and provides 8 psi (how does a overlord). To avoid overseer mass.
Ps: 50min 50gas seems too little for a detector and support caster.
|
On October 26 2012 21:05 hipo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Some idea for a complete revamp of the Queen:
Combine Queen (not used) and Overseer (used but boring) to create a more interesting unit.
Let’s call it the Overseer too because I don’t have a better idea.
Overseer only requires pool and is morphed from an Overlord for 50/50 in 20 seconds
Same stat as current Overseer but slightly slower
Overseer start with 3 spells:
- Spam Creep Tumor - 25 energies (same as the current one with faster spread but slower replication)
- Spam Larva – 50 energy (increase spam larva rate of an hatch by 25% during 60 sec)
- Reveal – 50 energies (reveal cloaked unit around the Overseer for 20 seconds)
At Lair, Overseer gets a new passive ability:
- Creep Bleeding (same as creep generation for Overlord but work even when the Overseer is moving)
At Hive, Overseer gets a new ability:
- Nydus Spam – 125 energies (create a Nydus Worms under the Overseer, built time 5 sec)
Overseer also gain benefit from Overlord’s upgrad: Pneumatized Carapace and Ventral Sacs
Explanations:
At hatch tech, Overseer isn’t really needed but you can still make them to scout, to start spreading creep, to increase your production or even to bank some energy for more reveal usage when needed. Later, you need it because it’s your only mobile detection. At this point, you can’t spam creep tumor or larva without taking the risk of being low on energy to use Reveal (a bit like an Orbital with call-down SCV / scan). You have to take care of them constantly because otherwise, they might be sniped allowing cloaked unit like DT to do a lot of damage. It also became a nice addition to your army to provide detection and creep even when you are moving. At hive tech, it greatly increases Zerg army mobility and harassment possibility.
That made me just go 'Hmm.' And 'Cool.' shortly after that.
|
On October 26 2012 22:12 JohnnyZerg wrote:
@hipo
nice idea for overseer but require 3 psi and provides 8 psi (how does a overlord). To avoid overseer mass.
Ps: 50min 50gas seems too little for a detector and support caster.
It's actually 150/50 since it is morphed from Overlord but it's true that it tier3 spell might be too strong for it cost. It can be solved by allowing Overseer to be morphed into Overwarlord (which have the Nidus spell) at Hive tech for an additional cost.
|
I'm not really sure if the queen's ability to speed up building time adds any strategic depth to the game. It seems like you'll just have one or two queens in your main base constantly 'chronoboosting' whichever building you need at the moment (which will probably be the infestation pit, hive, and then greater spire) and the rest of the queens on the map will be injecting like normal.
Of the three races, Zerg builds the fewest buildings by far, so the queen abilities should probably be creep/unit related.
|
On October 26 2012 23:01 hipo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 22:12 JohnnyZerg wrote:
@hipo
nice idea for overseer but require 3 psi and provides 8 psi (how does a overlord). To avoid overseer mass.
Ps: 50min 50gas seems too little for a detector and support caster. It's actually 150/50 since it is morphed from Overlord but it's true that it tier3 spell might be too strong for it cost. It can be solved by allowing Overseer to be morphed into Overwarlord (which have the Nidus spell) at Hive tech for an additional cost.
I think we should take Nydus from BW - make it a structure used to reinforce armies at far away bases. Even if we restrain it with a tech requirement, it's still mainly going to be one of the ways to sneak units where your opponent doesn't expect them to appear - an overlap we want to avoid as far as I remember.
|
Actually making the overseer the "new queen" might solve the problems for both units.
I was thinking that we might be going about fixing inject the wrong way, and to be fair the queen itself might be a big part of the problem.
Combining creepspread, nydus and the economy spells into one unit might be what will give the nessesary decisionmaking.
Make nydus cost both minerals and energy (like calldown SCV), while also giving it a longish buildtime. Overseers start with breed and tumor. Detection is researched at lair (cheap).
|
On October 26 2012 23:29 JohnMadden wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 23:01 hipo wrote:On October 26 2012 22:12 JohnnyZerg wrote:
@hipo
nice idea for overseer but require 3 psi and provides 8 psi (how does a overlord). To avoid overseer mass.
Ps: 50min 50gas seems too little for a detector and support caster. It's actually 150/50 since it is morphed from Overlord but it's true that it tier3 spell might be too strong for it cost. It can be solved by allowing Overseer to be morphed into Overwarlord (which have the Nidus spell) at Hive tech for an additional cost. I think we should take Nydus from BW - make it a structure used to reinforce armies at far away bases. Even if we restrain it with a tech requirement, it's still mainly going to be one of the ways to sneak units where your opponent doesn't expect them to appear - an overlap we want to avoid as far as I remember.
What about making the nydus a 3x3 square and require it to be built on creep. Also make the nydus produce no creep of it's own. This way you could still offensively plant it using a pooping overlord but the overlord would have to stand still for a while to get that 3x3 zone. Also any zone with creep would be viable, making creep much more important in the re-enforcement process as well as making clearing creep important.
|
Gossen, on Sacred Sands - Map/Game Variants/Add/OK to allow spectators.
|
@hipo
Idea for overlord generate creep ability:
Overlord when use generate creep ability, after 60 sec which remains stationary, generates a creep tumor (not able to generate other creep tumor). Io you have a good motivation to use the overlord to expand creep.
|
NA is patched. Have fun finding out what is different on each map guys! 
|
|
|
Sans Destination control groups and every map has a different variation on which bases have the 1500 min counts for half the patches.
|
|
|
@kabel
Hahaha, in new patch update #7 of hots, the new oracle ability:
This unit has a new ability called Time Warp.
The Oracle creates a temporal field that slows all ground units’ movement speed within a 3.5 radius by 50%.
This ability costs 75 energy to cast.
This ability can be cast from 9 range.
This ability has a duration of 30 seconds.
What do you remember this?
ahahah :D
|
Can somebody please tame Zerg?
|
>>> My view on Zerg <<<
First of all, I feel ashamed when I watch Zerg games because its so broken T_T
(Yes I got home and tuned in to the stream. The first thing I saw was the broken Z games on NA with unlimited Zerg bases at 15 min..... This will be a long post but it contains beautiful pictures so don´t worry )
I, and many other players, earlier felt that Zerg was not challenging or fun to play in Starbow. (It still is not) There is not so much to do, compared to P and T. There are two areas I want to fix with the Zerg race. I will start with the minor problem:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/O5eyj.jpg)
The core units of Terran and Protoss are highly rewarded by control. They have an" A-move mode" that makes them decent. But if you micro them - stutter step, blink, focus fire, stim pack, place spider mines etc, they get even better.
Zerg core units reaches their maximum state of efficency by simply existing. (And its very easy to make them exist... But I will come to that later)
So thats why I have been working on increasing the need of Zerg micro - Z must flank, Z must manually surround with Zerglings, the creep regeneration bonus encourages Zerg to micro units out of combat to regain health... There are lot of stuff to do in this area and I have some more improvements coming. (More about that in later posts)
In BW the unit selection limit of 12 units added the need of army control for Z. A huge Z army could not A-move in a blink of an eye... It required work to just order the huge army to attack!
But this is a minor issue compared to the real problem:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qP1kN.jpg)
The core aspect of the Zerg race is to make decisions on what to do with the larvas - army or workers. Imagine if Zerg had unlimited acess to larvas. There would be no decision. If Z had only 1 larva every minute it would be a very important decision. A high spawn rate on the larvas nullifies the importance of making good larva decisions since you can choose both!
A possible simple solution to a complex problem: Reduce the spawn time of larva. It will make the decisions more important between economy and army. Sure, Zerg can still get 5 early bases if they want. But it will require lots of larvas to saturate the bases and actually gain any value from them... And if they do, they have no units to defend... At this state of balance, Zerg can expand like crazy, saturate the bases AND build armies. This is because they have enough larvas to do everything. .. . . .. .. The downside might be that it will make Zerg a bit more "boring" since you have less to do... (But I think there are ways to overcome that problem)
Why am I bothering so much with the macro mechanics of Queens?!
I can panic balance the state of the game. (And maybe I must do it!) But I want to balance the game on good macro mechanics. Otherwise I fear that the fundamentals of Zerg will never be fixed.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZzPUz.jpg)
First of all, it has some unique features.
- Its the only ability in the game that "permanetly" makes a building better - it can add more maximum larvas to a hatchery.
- It "speeds" up the rate at which units can be produced. Hence it speeds up the number of decisions Z can make. But if that rate is too high the importance of deciding how to use each larva gets weaker...
No matter what kind of artificial respiration I give to Inject it will never add anything more versatile to Zerg macro by itself.
Why?
Because it only has 1 target ------> the hatchery.
The only decision Inject offers is the option to get more decisions from the hatchery... O_o
>>>>>>> Remember those pretty pictures? <<<<<<<<
+ Show Spoiler +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I can only change WHEN its most optimal to use Inject - if you have a low or high amount of larvas at the hatchery, if the hatchery is already doing something else etc. It will always be a spell whos only purpose is to click on the hatchery, just to give a skill limit in Zerg macro. (Since there is unlimited selection of buildings. Hence, everyone can macro like a pro in terms of mechanics without Inject)
A thought experiment: Imagine if all Protoss units (even workers) was built from the gateway. You would only have to chrono boost the gateway. But since Chrono boost effects researches too, it would still be a versatile ability with some decision in it. What if the Chrono boost would not even affect upgrades and only the gateway? There you have Inject in a nutshell...
Imagine if each unit-type-building for Zerg had its own stack of larvas. Hydra Den could store larvas. Spawning pool could spawn larvas etc.. Each building could only build its own kind of units. The Queen can choose what building to inject. It would be so versatile and useful!
But that is not the reality. Starcraft do not work in that way.
So... There are two ways to go with the Queen.
1) Redesign it completely. Make Queens unable to manipulate larvas at all. But this would require a lot of work and good ideas.
2) Make the best out of the worst. Inject can be one part of the Queen arsenal. If so, it should compete with other important spells in the Queen energy pool.
Look at this picture of the SC2 Queen and all its possible interactions:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FfYNt.jpg)
Ps. There are obviously lots of targets to Transfuse. But its expensive and can "overheal" the early units, especially in Starbow. Zerg defence is so strong anways without Transfuse. If Transfuse was crucial for survival, Zerg would have to be careful to keep energy on the Queens...
Compare it to the current version of the Starbow queen:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pXw67.jpg)
Its not perfect yet. (Obviously) I see flaws in it. (80 second Inject...)
The Queen shall be a unit that is VERY IMPORTANT for base management.
- Inject must be important. (But not as important as in SC2 for lots of reasons... )
- Transfuse must play a crucial role in base defence. (Just as chrono boost on cannons)
- Speed up buildings (or something else) must compete with Inject about the energy.
- Creep spread must require more participation from Queen.
All of this creates a Queen which has a conflict in how to use the energy. And I consider to do some adjustments to further enchance those aspects..
What needs to be decided?
- Exactly how Inject should work and what impact it should have on macro.
- Some form of seperate ability that competes with Inject and lets the Queen manipulate something else in the Zerg macro/base management.
What makes Zerg able to explode like they do? What values can be manipulated to balance it?
Larva Spawn time?
Drone Build time?
More need for Inject?
Cost for hatcheries?
The first thing I consider to do is to increase the spawn time of larvas by a couple of seconds. (I will look at numbers)
I will also increase all bases to 4 mineral patches with 1500 and 4 minerals patches with 1000. This will help P and T get longer value from their bases why at the same time benefit from more bases.
Thanks for reading ^^
|
|
|
@Inject Larva
There needs to be some sort of mechanical skill involved in macro. For Terran and Protoss, sim city, supply, production structures and macro mechanics translate macro skill well into the actual game.
In sc2, good zergs are seperated from bad zergs simply by virtue of being able to macro, while handling everything else. Much like a toss who uses his chrono will be much further ahead than a toss that doesn't. Zerg is the macro race, but as you said there is not difficulty in it.
Whatever solution we end up with, it has to have a degree of difficulty! The current inject is used less because it lasts longer and is therefore much easier. Its also not necessary to build queens at all but that's a balance issue at the moment.
The current inject for sc2, while bland, works because it stimulates macro mechanics to come into play, much like how in BW good players are able to mechanize their bases to their whim.
Whatever ends up happening, we need a macro mechanic for the most macro oriented race, and it should be at least as hard as SC2 inject. As a baseline, Z shouldn't be able to compete pound for pound without using its macro mechanic against races that are actually using it.
That said, unless someone comes up with a brilliant idea that fulfills the blunt apm sink that it is, inject should stay. Its thematic, and absolutely required to give Z any degree of difficulty.
@IDEAS TIME.
1. Whatever happened to Z laying eggs and buildings units out of those? Just curious, it was cool.
2. I like the whole non reproducing creep tumors thing. But that conflicts with the queens role of unit maker, and as we all know, more units>more creep. To solve this, we could make creep tumors have a much bigger radius, and give something better than HP regen for units on creep. HP regen makes no sense on disposable units sent to die anyways. I've seen it save a hydra or two, a few lurkers, but really. Its ZERG. This will let creep be less of a one shot deal, and queens will be used for more than just inject.
3. IDEA THREE. BEAR WITH ME HERE. RRRRRRRAW, BW FLASHBACK TIME.
WHat if.
Still here?
What if. Creep tumors were ACTUALLY creep colonies?! And they morphed into spine crawlers and spore crawlers.
So we have them cost energy off the queen as well, so you decide....
Do I want spines for defense that will really deter the enemy attack? Or more fragile lings?
Queens scale with hatch count, so when you need mass defenses, you should have the hatch count for the required queens. This goes well in hand with idea 2 as well, since each creep tumor spreads a lot of creep, and they cost money, it makes sense. It would operate more like bw, and gives queen an actual defensive role for her energy that will be used.
5. Make it operate more like the mothership core but with macro mechanics tacked on. Maybe the queen activates a new weapon temporarily, or goes into rage mode, or gives nearby friendly units an attack buff. Situation, gives options during defense, much more entertaining than transfuse, and more useful I feel.
IDEA MODE FINISHED.
Thank you for reading the wall of text <3
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zKizt.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/01KP5.jpg)
