EPTbug: lockdown targets all units. This should not happen.
Improve the animations and sounds (lockdown) would not hurt.
[A] Starbow - Page 128
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
bug: lockdown targets all units. This should not happen. Improve the animations and sounds (lockdown) would not hurt. | ||
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makmeatt
2024 Posts
Queen doesn't attack, instead it's a T1 unit as it is, being able to Breed, AoE Transfuse (or enable/improve regen) and Creep Spread. It moves quicker and the tumors cannot replicate themselves - with that, you can have a second queen per hatchery after Lair to have some queens spreading creep and helping your army out in battle. Numbers notwithstanding, would that improve its versatility? | ||
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hipo
France482 Posts
The question for Zerg shall not be "where do I use inject?" but "how do I use queen's energy?" On hatch (inject) ? On creep ? On defense (transfuse) ? In SC2, the answer is "everywhere" because you can make as many Queens as you want. In Starbow, it's a bit better because you only have one Queen per hatch and one Queen can't inject (or breed) all the time and still have enought energy to spread creep and transfuse. But currently, most players don't have any choice because Zergs don't need inject to have a strong economy. In top of that, most players don't macro very well and always have energies on their Queens (so they can use energy for everything). In SC2, if Zergs don't use inject correctly and if they don't spread creep, they will die. In Starbow, if they doesn't use any of those, nothing happen because their are strong enought without Queens. EDIT: Another way to look at the problem: Currently, Breed increase larva production of hatchery by 50%. If you have 2 hatch, it mean that to increase your production rate, you can choose between adding one additional hatch or 2 Queens (3 hatch and 2 hatch + 2 queen almost give you the same mount of larva). The first option make macroing as Zerg easier because you don't have to use Breed. The 2nd one make macroing harder but give you access to the others abilities of the Queen. At the moment, the first option is better because most people will miss some inject but for better players, Queens might become the best option. This mean players have to make a choice between making Queens and making additional hatch... | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I compare the Queen to Chrono boost and Orbital command. They provide so much versatility and fun for both Terran and Protoss all game long. I would like to capture that feeling and apply it on the Queen too. (So it´s not only Inject that must become "broader". ) She must not be a larva spawning house wife only, like she is in SC2 and again in Starbow. The best spell by far is Inject/Breed and her role is to just stand near the hatchery. Transfuse is used sometimes and 1-3 creep tumors is enough to spawn.. then the creep grows by itself. The optimal scenario would be if she has 3 spells that are all somewhat similar in importance. Right now Inject/ Breed is by far the superior ability. But moving her to tier 2 does not really solve anything fundamental with the unit, if the spells remain as they are. She will still be used in a similar way. If creep tumors would not replicate themselves it indeed would make it more important for Queens to spread the creep. So that is a possible solution. Unfortunatly that would be an another huge nerf to the Zerg race and its mechanics, unless creep spreads at a faster pace or something else as an advantage. Removing her attack would strengthen the need of extra defences, but it would probably annoy Zerg players quite a lot. Anyway, I will continue and think about this. All suggestions are welcome. ... New maps uploaded on EU! Destination ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gQxOL.jpg) Lunar industries by lefix ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Pv5JY.jpg) Its specially designed for Starbow and I am eager to try it out! NA will get them too  | ||
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purakushi
United States3303 Posts
Yeah, moving the queen to tier 2 will not do anything. @Kabel, please consider: I do think that the queen's ground range does not need to be the same as the queen's in SC2, though. The only real reason it was buffed from 3 to 5 in SC2 was because of hellions. Even then, many people agree that it was not really needed and, in fact, made the queen way too versatile/strong (hence the term "patch zergs" came about). Vultures are not quite as good at killing workers (no splash), and I think a reduction in range for the queen may force (or at least pressure) more larva use toward army units or spines to defend (early game as well as the many expos as the game progresses). Although hardly a fix for the exploding economy of zerg, it is a small way to have zerg worry more about defense, thus taking away larvae from drones a bit. Another minor change would be for creep tumour radius. Although creep spread is hardly necessary for a zerg to outexpand, outproduce, and just win games in the current state of the game, it is one of the ways that really differentiates zerg from the other races. I think the creep regeneration is a good way to go about creep (on top of the +0.5 movement speed), but it is pretty easy to spread creep at the moment (even if not necessary or just 1 queen is doing it). I know other people have suggested this before in some form, but how about reducing the radius of creep tumours but decreasing the amount of time for cooldown until it can spread again? I am thinking something drastic like double (or more) the amount of tumours for the same amount of creep, as you want to stress the tumour spreading, rather than trying to put the next tumour on the edge of the radius (necessarily). Larger radius tumours complete their "task" of filling up their radius slower, which can sort of be likened as an automated process (put tumour down, wait some X time, done, repeat --> most of the time is on "wait"). Smaller radius tumours complete their "task" quicker (assuming same creep spread rate), but since that is so, if you do not do anything about it in a shorter amount of time, it punishes you more. With smaller radius / shorter cooldown, it is more based on the players performance, which I believe we should be striving for. Creep spread has become so mainstream in SC2 that even some diamond players can keep up with professional players in that aspect of the game. It is no longer impressive to see half the map covered in creep by 8-9 minutes, because it is such a common thing. This change brings another aspect for more differentiation between players. While the importance of creep spread as well as the actual numbers for radius/cooldown will have to be balanced, what I am getting at here is for zerg to have to spend more time/APM spreading creep. They will have to do it more often because cooldown is lower. In addition, it actually provides a miniscule benefit to them, because the more creep tumours there are in the battlefield, the more things T and P are obligated to kill, thus slowing them down, unless they just want to charge right in on zerg territory (regen, vision, extra speed, etc). Smaller radius / shorter cooldown benefits the more consistent player but punishes those who neglect creep spread. You may have to consider tweaking (i.e. reducing) the amount of time creep takes to disappear, also. | ||
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WarpTV
205 Posts
The Lurker, Swarm Guard, and Arider are not in the Hotkey menu The Reaver is in the starbow hotkey menu yet is not normally there, So some how you added it @Terran and Protoss vs Zerg I think the only reason why they are having issues is the mineral/gas design, Terran and Toss suck at expanding and the new base minerals/gas mine them out too fast. For example, Protoss is not really in the late by only reaching T3. No their late game comes when they can afford to produce that T3 unit in the numbers they need, this happens when Protoss has 3 gas. However the time between when Protoss takes a 3rd and when their main is mined out is way to small for Protoss to stay in their late game. Protoss can't seem to take a 4th in time to keep up their T3 production. Terran is in a similar place with mech. Fixes? well, you can increase each mineral patch to 1300 and each gas to 4000. This way base mine out 20% faster then in SC2 rather than 30% faster. This will birge the gap Terran and Protoss feel between their 3rd and taking their 4th. wile still forcing them to take that 4th. Or, you could redo terran and protoss to make taking a 4th base easer. | ||
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hipo
France482 Posts
- Reduce mineral cost from 150 to 50 - Reduce hit point from 175 to 75 and armor from 1 to 0 - Reduce damage from 2x4 to 4 (vs groudn and air) - Breed now increase hatchery's larva spam rate by 15% for 1 minute and cost 50 energies - Creep doesn't spread by himself anymore (you need to use Queens for spreading creep) - Transfuse heal for 75 hp instead of 125 This way, Breed only give a slight bonus to economy (like Chronoboost) and became less crucial. If you don't use it, it isn't a big deal (as a lot of people said, Zerg don't need it at the moment) but using it still give you a nice bonus. This way, there is less reasons to use it, and more reasons to use the others abilities. Since Queens cost only 50 minerals, there is no reasons to not make them and I nerfed it stat a bit because it would have been way to strong otherwise for a 50 minerals units. | ||
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serojja
Ukraine90 Posts
Maps. Personally I think that Starbow lacks maps with really wide open areas. Just imagine how huge army of zerglings and lurkers invade terran`s tanks and marines controlling vast territory in the open field, how these wide flanks collide and produce super entertaining fight. It seems to me that maps like Match Point consist of choke points and corridors, which is not perfect. I was trying to find the appropriate map to show you an example and these two seem to fit the criteria: ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/9/93/ICCup_Testbug.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/d/da/Xel%27Naga_Fortress.jpg) What do you think? Sounds. I was experimenting with sounds about a half of the year ago and I added BroodWar sounds in SC2. Here is the link to russian sc2 forum where you can find needed files. Also, there was a topic about it somewhere on tl.net but I can`t find it. God, it was so beautiful to hear real machine-gun sounds from marines, heavy metal sounds of sieging tanks, sounds of protoss forge and zerg hydras. I really felt much more into game while listening to those sounds. Have you thought of using that sounds in Starbow? I believe it will only make the game better. Thanks! | ||
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Caas
Sweden51 Posts
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On October 25 2012 04:29 Caas wrote: why not make hydras armored or give something to give bonus dmg to biological to terran.. Stim marine chops up hydras. 3 Firebats can literally kill 45 zerglings during actual matches. Tank fry lurkers as they always have. Why do we need anything else? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I will consider. @Hotkeys The Lurker, Swarm Guard, and Arider are not in the Hotkey menu The Reaver is in the starbow hotkey menu yet is not normally there, So some how you added it I will look at it. I have no idea how I did that :s @Adding BW- sounds to Starbow Some Starbow players are old BW players. For us its nostalgic to have the old sounds, old models/skins or old maps. But a suprisingly high number of players have no idea what a Lurker, Reaver or Vulture is. I don´t think anything is wrong with the current sounds and if Starbow only becomes a project about nostalgia, it won´t be appealing to new players. Besides, I focus mostly on the gameplay right now. I will fix the esthetic parts of the game later, if needed. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
Breed on its own was never going to be the solution, although I wouldn't despair entirely because it IS an improvement over the previous Inject. We're on the right path! However this lack of depth in where you cast it is why I suggested the other spell, Incubation Cloud, as well. Giving the Queen multiple powerful spells so that she must decide when to cast this one or save energy for that one is very important. I agree that Breed is still lacking the versatility of Chrono or SCV Calldown. However, not all OC spells have an incredible amount of depth. Supply Calldown is pretty much a one-dimensional deal but that doesn't make it bad - the shared energy pool with something versatile like SCV Calldown, and something strategically important like Scanner Sweep, gives the OC plenty of depth. IC was supposed to be our versatile Queen spell. The idea was that you could cast it over Eggs, you could cast it over Banes/Lurks morphing in the field, you could cast it over morphing buildings, and you could cast it over your army as a psuedo Dark Swarm to protect from ranged damage. A skillful player could combine these and get a lot out of a well placed Inc Cloud at the right moment. Making it powerful and multi-faceted in this regard was integral to the overall Queen design I suggested, because it would have actually made players think twice about spending all their energy on Breed (which I originally called 'Nourish' for those who remember the post) instead of getting up more Macro Hatches. I agree that we should also be looking at Creep Tumors to see what can be done about making Creep Spread more important. Increasing the number of Tumors necessary is a bad idea because spreading Creep is not really what most players consider fun, so you don't want them engaged in that activity for more time than is necessary. But we can start by increasing the cooldown length on Tumor replication so that to spread it faster you need to involve Queens more. Taking away the replication ability would completely destroy the flavor of Creep as an invasive living carpet that constantly encroaches on the T/P position. Queens should not be required to spread it, only to initiate and accelerate the spread, but we should work to make that acceleration more important. Additional Queen thoughts: Removing the attack or nerfing the range again is probably pointless. Queens do *pathetic* DPS for their cost except against air units (I guess we could probably reduce the air attack range to the same as ground since Hydra's are now Tier One again). The problem in SC2 was that you didn't have a cap as to the number of Queens you could make, but in Starbow we are restricted to one per hatch, so I can't imagine it's an issue. Also scaling the Queen down, ie lowering cost as well as damage, HP, etc. will muddy her identity as a unit and give Zerg too many small, weak, cheap units at the beginning of the game. Her stats are fine. The only change I think might be okay is if we increased the cost of Hatcheries to 350 minerals as Arkuss had suggested awhile back, and lowered the Queens to 100 apiece. But there are two issues with that: First, Hatcheries have always cost 300 minerals in both BW and SC2, so it would be a jarring change. Second, I think Zerg's economy can be fixed by messing around with the minerals per base/minerals per trip/worker build times as Barrin has suggested, in which case messing with Hatch cost would break the race once the root of the real problem is fixed. | ||
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makmeatt
2024 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On October 25 2012 03:20 serojananda wrote: Sounds. I was experimenting with sounds about a half of the year ago and I added BroodWar sounds in SC2. Here is the link to russian sc2 forum where you can find needed files. Also, there was a topic about it somewhere on tl.net but I can`t find it. God, it was so beautiful to hear real machine-gun sounds from marines, heavy metal sounds of sieging tanks, sounds of protoss forge and zerg hydras. I really felt much more into game while listening to those sounds. Have you thought of using that sounds in Starbow? I believe it will only make the game better. Thanks! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=247116 | ||
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asphyxia88
94 Posts
I think this can be fixed at the units UI options, under the Hotkey Category. As an example:For the Lurker, go to "Units > Lurker > UI > Hotkey Category" and set it to "Unit/Category/ZergUnits". You could also remove any units Hotkey Category that you don't want to show up in the hotkey configuration screen (Campaign heroes/units/structures/etc), this should make it easier for people when they want to customize their hotkeys. | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
And as a last note, units are less clumped up and do not move in perfect formations anymore... Keeping an eye on your army is ever so important. Death to the deathball!!! What is changed exactly? What properties did you change in the editor? How do you feel it has affected gameplay and spectating? My interest is basically this thread talking about alternative unit movements for HOTS. | ||
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purakushi
United States3303 Posts
On October 25 2012 05:55 SmileZerg wrote: Additional Queen thoughts: Removing the attack or nerfing the range again is probably pointless. Queens do *pathetic* DPS for their cost except against air units (I guess we could probably reduce the air attack range to the same as ground since Hydra's are now Tier One again). The problem in SC2 was that you didn't have a cap as to the number of Queens you could make, but in Starbow we are restricted to one per hatch, so I can't imagine it's an issue. When were Starbow queen's range nerfed? The thing is, queens allow zergs to defend so well early game for a unit that players should already get. In SC2, the buff to their range made it so that zergs did not need to make as many additional units to defend any sort of early harassment in a lot of cases. It is a small change, but it gives T and P more options and hope for earlier attacks so zerg can not just drone/expand with such ease. I think either nerfing the ground range (something <=4) and 150 HP or just making it 125 HP would be good (175 HP is definitely way too much). It makes the queen that much more important as well as each larva you use, whether it is for defense or just to continue droning. @Kabel: Nexii/CC's/Hatcheries costing anything different from 400/400/300 is just wrong. Please keep them as is. >_< I also think that zerg's economy can be fixed by minerals per base/minerals per trip/worker build times. Though, I think that worker build times is probably the least important of the three. Regardless, the 3 workers should all build at the same rate. | ||
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WarpTV
205 Posts
I have not seen it add to zerg's early defense in the ways others describe/theorycraft. With only 1 queen per hatch, this magic defend all queen build dose not exist. I have used sair/wrath harass to grate effect. The root issue with zerg is that Protoss and Terran are forced to expand to a 4th when their main base is running dry. At the time this happens their armies can't reasonable defend it. At about the same time P&T are forced to take a 4th zerg is hitting it's peak in terms of supply/tech. Zerg would be stating it's end game kill sequence of flooding units. If zerg can do any damage at this time, it snowballs out of control in favorer of zerg. Adding a few minerals and gas to each base will allow P&T to delay that 4th ever so slightly and absorb some of the damage zerg is throwing out at that specific point in the game. Note: marines, medic, SCV all-in seem abit too good with 60hp SCV's and rage 6 marines. Why is stalkers at 4 range, hydras at 4 range, yet marines get 6 and medics? | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On October 25 2012 07:53 purakushi wrote: When were Starbow queen's range nerfed? The thing is, queens allow zergs to defend so well early game for a unit that players should already get. In SC2, the buff to their range made it so that zergs did not need to make as many additional units to defend any sort of early harassment in a lot of cases. It is a small change, but it gives T and P more options and hope for earlier attacks so zerg can not just drone/expand with such ease. I think either nerfing the ground range (something <=4) and 150 HP or just making it 125 HP would be good (175 HP is definitely way too much). It makes the queen that much more important as well as each larva you use, whether it is for defense or just to continue droning. Sorry, when I said nerfed again I meant back to what it originally was in standard SC2. My bad. I really don't think it's going to make any tangible difference though. Queens do not defend well against ground units regardless of range because the damage is just too low (which is where it should be, don't get me wrong I'm not arguing to buff them). The only time they really come into play is against super early cheese, like bunker rushes etc. which was what the added Queen range was intended to accomplish in the SC2 patch. 175 HP is not nearly too much for a unit that costs 150 minerals. All units in SC2 (bar two exceptions) have either equal-to-or-greater health than their mineral cost (usually greater than) OR a way to protect themselves (Banshee/Ghost Cloak, Infestor Burrow-Move, Banelings still exploding upon death etc). The only units that don't follow this rule are Hydralisks and Vikings, which have always been considered too weak (Vikings only in ground mode). Kabel actually fixed this in Starbow as far as I'm aware, whether intentionally or otherwise. So I say again - Queens are not a balance problem. The raw economy is. The only problem with Queens is that their spells aren't interesting or deep enough yet. I don't even know how this whole harping on Queens thing got started, I think you guys were just taking Kabel's discussion about Queen spells needing work completely out of context. @Kabel: Nexii/CC's/Hatcheries costing anything different from 400/400/300 is just wrong. Please keep them as is. >_< I also think that zerg's economy can be fixed by minerals per base/minerals per trip/worker build times. Though, I think that worker build times is probably the least important of the three. Regardless, the 3 workers should all build at the same rate. I think I agree with you on the main base structure costs, I was just throwing someone else's idea out there again. Also, Barrin seems to disagree about the worker build times, and I've read his post about FRB economy, he definitely has a head for math. I think we should take his advice under consideration. Lastly I'm not sure why the workers all need to build at the same rate if Zerg's larvae mechanics allow them to spawn multiple Drones at once. I'd prefer to experiment with the numbers as freely as possible until we find something that feels right. | ||
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purakushi
United States3303 Posts
Well, I never said any of the queen changes would balance anything. I agree with you that the raw economy is where the problem is at. I have thought the same thing for a while. Balance and economy are two separate things, though. I mentioned the queen stuff just as a minor change for the queen itself, not for the economy, even though it plays a role in that. While 150 minerals for a 175 HP may not be too much, it is not just any 175 HP unit. The queen should be the backbone of the zerg's economy (in terms of how it can keep up with Terran and Protoss, at least before mass macro hatcheries later game). While the queen is not yet finalised with its spells and all that, we are trying to make it more interesting. With whatever those changes are, the queen becomes much more versatile. It is not meant to be a fighting unit. You're correct in that it was buffed in SC2 to deal with cheese, but it made it considerably easier for zerg just to drone. This made the queen way too versatile. While it does only a bit of DPS (4x2), 150 minerals for a 175 HP multi-spellcaster that can hit ground (tickle) and air (decent), I think that is really inexpensive. The queen needs to feel more important that you do not want it dying (or risk of), but you still have the choice to use it to defend. Anyway, it is hard to say without the overall economy being fixed "first". I'm really just saying about the feeling of the queen and its importance. In reality, it probably does very little. Regarding worker build times, other than just it feeling weird, I do not think worker build times should differ for drones, because inject was replaced by breed. Instead of a burst of available larva, you have a constant rate (well, sometimes accelerated) of larvae coming out. This makes production a lot more like Terran and Protoss in that one or fewer amount of drones are built at once. While it may be different for lesser players for it to be at a different rate, players who stay on top of their macro and are constantly making units, they will have less of a chance for a ton of drones at the same time, unless it is from multiple hatcheries, in which I see no problem having the same build time as SCVs and probes. I think we should make the changes with what the theoretical "best" can do, right? Assuming worker build times stay equal across the 3 races, I think that before worker build times are tweaked, we should really look at minerals per trip first. >< | ||
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