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Macro Or Die v1.4 - Now Available in EU
Do you find yourself accumulating too many resources during the mid and late game? Do you find yourself behind in economy and/or army supply more often than not?
If you answered YES, or SOMETIMES, then this trainer may be of use to you. Even if you answered NO, this trainer may be helpful in refining your macro so that it complements your strategies better.
What do I have to do?
Just play a normal melee game on a Macro or Die map. You can play against the computer or a human; if the map has more than 2 starting areas you can also play co-op vs AI, or team games. The map will do the rest. It will also try to give you an adequate estimate of your ability as it pertains to ladder leagues and a final score which will eventually end up on a persistent leaderboard.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/HqK9v.jpg)
How does the map act as a Trainer?
Imagine that you have a coach observing your game who gently reminds you every time you let your macro slip. Well, this coach is a little more aggressive than that. If you let your macro slip the Adjutant will send ghosts out to nuke your mineral line. Don't worry, there is a 30 second timer before the nuke detonates. If you return your stockpiled resources to more appropriate levels the Adjutant will call off the ghosts.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Nw17k.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/avqrB.jpg)
So how do I find it?
That's easy. You just search for "+macro +die" at the custom game screen, or you go to the "Macro Or Die" chat channel to find other players.
There are 9 Macro Or Die maps available on Battle.Net (NA):
- Macro Or Die [Tal'Darim Altar LE] (Available Now)
- Macro Or Die [Xel'Naga Caverns] (Available Now)
- Macro Or Die [The Shattered Temple] (Back In Development)
- Macro Or Die [Metalopolis] (Available Now)
- Macro Or Die [Scrap Station] (Back In Development)
- Macro Or Die [Backwater Gulch] (Back In Development)
- Macro Or Die [GSL Crevasse] (Back In Development)
- Macro Or Die [Shakuras Plateau] (Back In Development)
- Macro Or Die [Typhon Peaks] (Back In Development)
- Please suggest any maps you would like to see this mod added to in the thread
This mod is cool, but I have some feedback that will make it awesome!
Fantastic. By all means post your feedback here. If your BO is getting unfairly penalized, please post it and the timings so I can try to include it in the fixes.
I also want to see REPLAYS. Please post links to great Macro Or Die games here too.
- Major
Notes:
- All players - Do not worry about your current Macro level. It looks to see if you should increase every minute; so if your macro is generally good you won't be affected by a couple of slip ups. Although it is admirable to be at the highest level you can be the entire time, certain BOs and opponents will force you to lose a level or stay the same - live with it. The most important thing is how consistent you were throughout the game.
- Protoss players - it is known that certain builds which require stockpiling (3 Gate / FE, and even 4 Gates) will trigger a countdown causing panic. Do not fear, if your BO is tight you'll be fine. You may want to queue up your units in one of the gateways as your warpgates finish to be on safe side. I'm looking into fixing this, but I need more feedback from the community first.
Replays:
Upcoming Changes:
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Tiny Reset button on Countdown - allows you to reset your Cushion back to Max (20x) in the event that your current Cushion is too restrictive.
Changelist:
Version 1.4
- Promotion Check Timer now starts when you gain control of your units instead of when you load into the map.
- Promotion Check Timer is based off of your level. The higher level you are the longer you will need to maintain all three objectives before it checks to see if it should promote you.
- Maps support Team Games and FFA games now. Game will end when all members of other team have 'gg'd. It should support teams of any size.
- Invisible Computer Allies/Opponents have been removed when you use 'Join Game' to start a map with more than 2 starting positions.
- NEW MAP: Araken Citadel [Macro Or Die] has been added for 3v3 practice.
- Ready button will show who you are waiting for if everyone hasn't pressed it yet.
- A lot of code cleanup in preparation for porting and localizing.
Known Bugs
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If players drop from lobby before game,there's a chance the Adjutant will fail to load and everyone will be stuck at instruction screen.
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When the loser GGs the winner is not automatically being given their points and brought to the score screen. The Winner has to type GG in order to stop the game and get their win. Will fix it back tonight.
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A warning pops up when users press 'GG'. This is harmless (I hope), but I'll get rid of it tomorrow.
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Players were getting penalized for supply blocking themselves with 9 pylon
- Sometimes the macro level does not show next to the avg cushion on score screen. (still trying to debug this)
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Other players score is not showing up at all when you start a 2v2 variant match with only 1 player on each team.
Version 1.3
+ Show Spoiler +- Show completed objectives and failed objectives each chance the user has for promotion, before presenting them with their current level.
- Calculate computers' scores and post them on the leaderboard; The computer will not get nuked when their timer goes to 0.
- [Bug Fix] Don't increase macro level if player is not mining.
- [Bug Fix] Game automatically goes to score screen when AI surrenders.
- [Bug Fix] No more stalemates. Victory/Defeat menus pop up 45 seconds after hitting 'gg' or after seeing the scoreboard.
Version 1.1
+ Show Spoiler +- Bug Fix - Score Screen will now show your average cushion factor, not the cushion you had before game ended.
- Green Tea AI 0.82 added - thank you ptanhkhoa
- Score Modifiers added to account for opponent skill level:
- Very Easy AI = 10% of score
- Easy AI = 30% of score
- Medium AI = 50% of score
- Hard AI = 60% of score
- Very Hard AI = 70% of score
- Insane AI = 80% of score
- Player = 100% of score
- Efficiency Score, currently determined by (army killed value - your army value)/cushion will only post positive rewards at the end game.
- Players will receive extra bonuses added to their Efficiency Score for the following:
- Spreading Creep Tumors
- Using Chronoboost
- Maintaining an army of veteran units
- Players will be prevented from leveling up if they fail to do any of the following:
- Keep stockpile within their current cushion
- Keep hatcheries injected
- Keep energy on Nexuses below 60, and energy on CCs below 110
- Prevent extended supply blockages
- Players will only be able to queue a maximum of 2 units at any building (4 if a reactor is attached).
- Backoff Timer will be included when player goes from Max Food to something below it. You will now have 30 seconds before being penalized to spend your stockpile or return to max (>= 190 food) army.
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what if you're maxed? do you auto lose when you max out and have to stockpile money?
also from what i see, it seems you get nuked whenever you have more than 750. what if you're stockpiling gas to pop out bunch of mutas when spire finishes?
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On April 26 2011 08:28 afk4lifez wrote:
also from what i see, it seems you get nuked whenever you have more than 750. what if you're stockpiling gas to pop out bunch of mutas when spire finishes?
basically this. there are some circumstances where you actually do either want to stockpile money, or you're forced too. I know that it fixes itself when maxed, but if i'm saving for mutas, or if i'm a gateway heavy toss waiting for another round of warpins, what do?
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On April 26 2011 08:28 afk4lifez wrote:
what if you're maxed? do you auto lose when you max out and have to stockpile money?
If you're maxed (actually >= 190 supply) then the macro trigger is disabled. You should still be spending your resources effectively while maxed though; stockpiling with no plan on what to do with those resources defeats the purpose of this map.
also from what i see, it seems you get nuked whenever you have more than 750. what if you're stockpiling gas to pop out bunch of mutas when spire finishes?
What determines when you will get nuked is based on your supply count and the cushion, which goes up and down based on how efficiently you are spending your resources. Going pure muta early is a bit tricky, but possible because you can always trick the trainer by faking a hatchery to decrease your minerals by 300. Also remember that you have 30 seconds to do what you need to do to spend the money.
I definitely know the mod will need to get tweaked for this just like the protoss builds I mentioned above. But, I need to see more games with it and other areas where there are trouble so that they all get fixed or balanced properly.
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Wow this is a really good idea for a training map. I look forward to see it being tuned and polished to perfection!
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This sounds awesome. Will definitely try this out when I'm at work tonight.
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Would love to try it. It's not on EU though, is it? 
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On April 26 2011 09:44 zooalt wrote:Would love to try it. It's not on EU though, is it?
Right now it's only NA. I'll put it up on EU once we work out most of the kinks. Since it's literally a map for each ladder map, it takes a lot of time to do the updates.
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I like this idea! Good initiative.
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What happens if a Zerg player is saving money for mutas when his spire pops? Or for any race that wants to save for a tech structure to finish?
EDIT: Nvm
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really liked playing the map, just did 2v1 vs AI and had 0 nukes go off throughout my 20 min game that i got maxed 3/3 done. keep up the good work!
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I'll try it when I can :D did you disable queuing units in structures (being able to queue 1 unit is OK imo but more than 1 is prolly forcing bad habits)
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cant wait to try this out :D looks really awesome
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This seems really cool! I will try this out when i get home.
Thanks dood!
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On April 26 2011 10:47 GenesisX wrote:
What happens if a Zerg player is saving money for mutas when his spire pops? Or for any race that wants to save for a tech structure to finish?
Can you post the BO in question, so I can figure out where this will need to be tweaked? What timings in particular are you worried about?
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Looks totally awesome, I'll definitely try it out! :D
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On April 26 2011 11:20 Teivospy wrote:
I'll try it when I can :D did you disable queuing units in structures (being able to queue 1 unit is OK imo but more than 1 is prolly forcing bad habits)
A couple of people have given me feedback about queuing being a cheap way to avoid the timer. As of right now, I want to keep it as close to what's allowed in a normal game as possible. Queuing can save you from the nuke, but it can't save you from another player who is actually producing with those resources instead of delaying them.
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Looks awesome, probably will get nuked my ass off. Can't wait till it will comes at EU server
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Really awesome idea! I can't wait to get in and try it out, think I'll log on and give it a shot now :3
but yes, this will deffinately help ALOT of people out, especially when you tweet a few things that you mentioned you will be doing.
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Dont want to be annoying, but doenst the [M] stand for Melee? Should be [UMS] for this map 
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On April 26 2011 22:51 ihasaKAROT wrote:Dont want to be annoying, but doenst the [M] stand for Melee? Should be [UMS] for this map
I'll leave it to the mods to categorize this as they see fit.
Every Macro Or Die map is a ladder or GSL map, which should be played with melee settings. Also, this was built primarily for human vs human games (including team and FFA). The AI is there for practice; it is normal melee AI and will not be affected by Nukes.
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IMO make it an exponentially growing curve of min/gas income you have to meet to keep players from sitting on 2 bases- seriously. You haven't learned to macro if you never expand past your natural.
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One minor suggestion: how about incorporating chronoboost energy / queen energy / orbital energy into the macro equation? Similar to how the multitask trainer functions, but the penalty can be something like a nuke incoming for energy above 25/50/75/100 (depending on the league cushion).
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On April 26 2011 20:30 Inori wrote:
FE gets punished.
Also what do you need to do to get masters level?
Master level requires at the minimum 10 minutes of good macro without triggering the countdown. If you trigger a countdown then you will stay at your level. If you trigger a nuke launch then you will go down a level.
FEs will generally cause you to delay your macro level increase a bit, but as I said at the top, this does not matter. You will easily be able to get to your appropriate level in a macro game because your chance at promotion comes once a minute.
On April 27 2011 00:48 novabossa wrote:
One minor suggestion: how about incorporating chronoboost energy / queen energy / orbital energy into the macro equation? Similar to how the multitask trainer functions, but the penalty can be something like a nuke incoming for energy above 25/50/75/100 (depending on the league cushion).
Were you finding that you could get away with not using chronoboost, Mules or Supply Calldown, or spawn larvae? The penalties are pretty built-in to the gameplay. You most likely will be unable to spend your income fast enough if you are not taking advantage of these boosts.
Also keep in mind that this mod is built for all skill levels. If you are bronze/silver just trying to spend and plan your spending may be more than enough for you to tackle, and your bronze or silver opponents won't force you to use extra abilities. As you player higher rated opponents you have to expect that they are using all of the tools available to them to out macro you; so you are in effect being penalized when you don't use them - you will almost always lose.
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http://replayfu.com/r/G5SFZn
i rarely melee but heres a game i played quickly to see what the map was like.
kept getting nukes but got out of it pretty quickly
i was also able to dump minerals into building stuff that wouldn't be in production straight away to keep my mins down which i think sort of took the point out of it
also i very rarely used chrono, it's been a few months since i've meleed properly
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On April 27 2011 00:48 novabossa wrote:
One minor suggestion: how about incorporating chronoboost energy / queen energy / orbital energy into the macro equation? Similar to how the multitask trainer functions, but the penalty can be something like a nuke incoming for energy above 25/50/75/100 (depending on the league cushion).
Also what if for a queen someone is saving for transfusions? Or if someone is saving chronos so they can non stop chrono warpgates? with the new warp gate time toss needs more chronos to get it done.
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On April 27 2011 01:38 Stickmatrix wrote:http://replayfu.com/r/G5SFZni rarely melee but heres a game i played quickly to see what the map was like. kept getting nukes but got out of it pretty quickly i was also able to dump minerals into building stuff that wouldn't be in production straight away to keep my mins down which i think sort of took the point out of it also i very rarely used chrono, it's been a few months since i've meleed properly
Thanks for the replay Dub. I thought it went very smoothly - you needed the reminder every once in awhile but you were able to recover almost immediately; you never actually had a nuke get launched.
Everyone please take into account that against the AI you are generally facing a Computer who stays on 1 base throughout the game. They aren't really going to force you to be honest - so yes against a lesser opponent you can spend resources on stuff that isn't exactly making you more efficient.
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On April 27 2011 01:32 _Major wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 20:30 Inori wrote:
FE gets punished.
Also what do you need to do to get masters level? Master level requires at the minimum 10 minutes of good macro without triggering the countdown. If you trigger a countdown then you will stay at your level. If you trigger a nuke launch then you will go down a level. FEs will generally cause you to delay your macro level increase a bit, but as I said at the top, this does not matter. You will easily be able to get to your appropriate level in a macro game because your chance at promotion comes once a minute. Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 00:48 novabossa wrote:
One minor suggestion: how about incorporating chronoboost energy / queen energy / orbital energy into the macro equation? Similar to how the multitask trainer functions, but the penalty can be something like a nuke incoming for energy above 25/50/75/100 (depending on the league cushion). Were you finding that you could get away with not using chronoboost, Mules or Supply Calldown, or spawn larvae? The penalties are pretty built-in to the gameplay. You most likely will be unable to spend your income fast enough if you are not taking advantage of these boosts. Also keep in mind that this mod is built for all skill levels. If you are bronze/silver just trying to spend and plan your spending may be more than enough for you to tackle, and your bronze or silver opponents won't force you to use extra abilities. As you player higher rated opponents you have to expect that they are using all of the tools available to them to out macro you; so you are in effect being penalized when you don't use them - you will almost always lose.
While that is a good point, I feel it is still beneficial for lower league players simply because it will help them to pinpoint why their macro is falling behind. It is also very good practice to have a constant mental timer on spending that energy. By adding a reminder, I think it'll help progress their macro abilities much faster simply by making them aware of the timings and how energy can help to dramatically help with macro.
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[B]On April 27 2011 04:20 novabossa wrote:
While that is a good point, I feel it is still beneficial for lower league players simply because it will help them to pinpoint why their macro is falling behind. It is also very good practice to have a constant mental timer on spending that energy. By adding a reminder, I think it'll help progress their macro abilities much faster simply by making them aware of the timings and how energy can help to dramatically help with macro.
Duly noted. I've gotten a couple of other people requesting something along these lines too. I think I'm going to include it into the bonus points players get for their efficiency - since it is along those lines.
I was just on and got to referee a cool Diamond TvZ match on Macro Or Die [Tal'Darim Altar]. I've posted the replay in the OP for all to see what this mod looks like head to head.
The Game: http://drop.sc/7788
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I played zerg recently against a player on this map. Zerg can spend all their resources as long as they keep up with their larva injects, have enough larvae to spend. However, there are times when zerg need to delay their spending. Some examples are tech switching (muta balls), incomplete information to decide whether to make drones or what type of units, the need to assess how much damage an aggressive attack has done to the enemy before you choose to drone up or reinforce with units. I feel it's actually not beneficial for zergs learning how to macro to be forced into making units early game without being able to assess the situation properly. Usually, zergs can keep their resources low easier after saturating their third, and all larvae are used on army production. Perhaps you could give more allowance to zerg in the early game or even better use larvae quantity/queen energy as an indicator for macro.
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Thanks for listening ^_^ This UMS has amazing potential as a training tool for budding players. Keep up the good work!
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On April 27 2011 05:04 babysimba wrote:
I played zerg recently against a player on this map. Zerg can spend all their resources as long as they keep up with their larva injects, have enough larvae to spend. However, there are times when zerg need to delay their spending. Some examples are tech switching (muta balls), incomplete information to decide whether to make drones or what type of units, the need to assess how much damage an aggressive attack has done to the enemy before you choose to drone up or reinforce with units. I feel it's actually not beneficial for zergs learning how to macro to be forced into making units early game without being able to assess the situation properly. Usually, zergs can keep their resources low easier after saturating their third, and all larvae are used on army production. Perhaps you could give more allowance to zerg in the early game or even better use larvae quantity/queen energy as an indicator for macro.
I've gotten a lot of feedback about this as well. I personally think some of it is unwarranted, as I play Zerg too; I really can't stress enough that I need replays to help me figure out exactly where the problem is. The TvZ replay I've posted is a good example (sorry Sovereign =p ). If you are stockpiling gas for mutas before your spire is started; you are doing something wrong IMO.
I watch a lot of pro games and even when they stockpile they are staying within the limits (when you account for the timer), because they keep their minerals low when they stockpile gas and they plan ahead with supply and building timings.
I realize I am not nearly as good as most of you, and that my experience isn't going to be suitable for everyone else. So, I will look into how to incorporate available larvae into the cushion for Zerg players for the benefit of the community.
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I want to try this map out, but cant find it on EU :/
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This is a really good idra for a map, I think this will really help me nail my macro-game abilities.
Do you think you can make this map on Jungle Basin? I know it was removed for being basically "Imba", but I still like it.
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What are all the commands? How do I restart? Do I have to remake after I gg?
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On April 27 2011 06:19 rkffhk wrote:
What are all the commands? How do I restart? Do I have to remake after I gg?
"gg" is the only command; make sure you are using melee settings. You do have to remake after each game.
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will you bring this maps to EU?
Would love it
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can it be released on the eu server ?
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I think there should be a button that for you to express your intent on throwing down x gates or a nexus, to placate the timer but not penalize you. I don't think that button should be binding (honor rule guys) , because you could be 3 gate FEing and then get roach rushed before your expo
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On April 27 2011 02:00 Inori wrote:good potential, but seems too easy tbh. http://drop.sc/7779I've made a lot of mistakes too. Needs to check for supply block and 3rd-4th expo timing I guess.
Very slick Inori! You have inspired me too add audio comments based on performance when the score screen comes up. Your replay would've ended with a "Flawless!".I'm posting this at the top for the rest of the Protoss players.
If I find you another opponent of your level would you play them on a Macro or Die level? I would love to see a replay of that too.
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THANK you. I've been using YABOT but once I memorize the builds, this will be awesome if it works well!
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You should add a feature that punishes you for queuing too many units and also something that makes sure that you're keeping up with drones, probes, or scvs (that last one will be difficult because some BOs have you cut production at a certain point, then again why would you be 4-gating in a MACRO trainer?)
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On April 27 2011 06:12 57 Corvette wrote:
This is a really good idra for a map, I think this will really help me nail my macro-game abilities.
.
I guess no one saw what I did there
Oh well, wasn't funny anyways. Back to business of training Macro.
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On April 27 2011 05:45 _Major wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 05:04 babysimba wrote:
I played zerg recently against a player on this map. Zerg can spend all their resources as long as they keep up with their larva injects, have enough larvae to spend. However, there are times when zerg need to delay their spending. Some examples are tech switching (muta balls), incomplete information to decide whether to make drones or what type of units, the need to assess how much damage an aggressive attack has done to the enemy before you choose to drone up or reinforce with units. I feel it's actually not beneficial for zergs learning how to macro to be forced into making units early game without being able to assess the situation properly. Usually, zergs can keep their resources low easier after saturating their third, and all larvae are used on army production. Perhaps you could give more allowance to zerg in the early game or even better use larvae quantity/queen energy as an indicator for macro. I've gotten a lot of feedback about this as well. I personally think some of it is unwarranted, as I play Zerg too; I really can't stress enough that I need replays to help me figure out exactly where the problem is. The TvZ replay I've posted is a good example (sorry Sovereign =p ). If you are stockpiling gas for mutas before your spire is started; you are doing something wrong IMO. I watch a lot of pro games and even when they stockpile they are staying within the limits (when you account for the timer), because they keep their minerals low when they stockpile gas and they plan ahead with supply and building timings. I realize I am not nearly as good as most of you, and that my experience isn't going to be suitable for everyone else. So, I will look into how to incorporate available larvae into the cushion for Zerg players for the benefit of the community.
I don't know if it's possible, but it would be great if you could implement something along the lines of (Current Minerals - No. of Larva X 50) for the early stages of the game. However, half of the time zergs need to use their larvae for drones asap to macro up properly as well, so this is really quite a complicated situation lol.
Maybe the best way is just to extend the timer for the nuke slightly longer. Since if one is unable to spend properly due to the lack of larvae, he won't be able to spend the resources before 1-2 waves of injects are completed anyway. The nuke act as a reminder for players to focus on macro, but in the current situation, it might be already too late for zergs to do anything else after hearing the nuke besides planting down extra macro hatches.
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Yeah, upload to EU please
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Waiting for EU v!!!  give us it... NAO!!
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Australia18228 Posts
Good map.
If you manage to kill off all your workers and you're still above the 'cushion', then you can use mules as ticking time bombs
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http://drop.sc/7837 vs AI
I like this map a lot, especially considering I can only play vs AI since I lag way too much online (boo finishing school and losing access to my brothers comp and now having to play on my parents old computer for the time being ._>). Would it be possible to add a restart command ala YABOT? In case you want to regame without reloading the map?
i'd imagine it would be much better actually vs a player and not just a hard computer.. but i gotta get a computer first tho ._.
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We need these maps on European servers!!
When u need any help, publishing the maps on eu-> pm me : )
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I have to criticise one huge issue about this very awesome map:
Why does the player get warned? Its a much better lesson if the player just gets nuked as soon as he has stockpiled to much money. That way ur forced to pay more attention to it. During a normal game noone will look at ur money but yourself.
getting ur money back down isnt hard, since u can build more structure than u need or just get more bases (probably unwise if not planed anyways) and invest in a bunch of upgrades at once; but thats not how its supposed to be in game... i personally have bad macro often times and i can get it down from several k to almost nothing quickly by taking a 4th base and stuff, but its badly played. u lose supply and u fall behind no matter what u do with it later on.
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On April 27 2011 17:47 Inflicted_ wrote:Good map. If you manage to kill off all your workers and you're still above the 'cushion', then you can use mules as ticking time bombs
Thanks I will test this out and fix. It's only supposed to target workers not Mules.
On April 27 2011 19:05 Teivospy wrote:http://drop.sc/7837 vs AI I like this map a lot, especially considering I can only play vs AI since I lag way too much online (boo finishing school and losing access to my brothers comp and now having to play on my parents old computer for the time being ._>). Would it be possible to add a restart command ala YABOT? In case you want to regame without reloading the map? i'd imagine it would be much better actually vs a player and not just a hard computer.. but i gotta get a computer first tho ._.
Thanks for the replay Teivospy. I'll check it out tonight when I get home from work. I'll also be including Green Tea AI 0.82 in the next update for everyone practicing against the AI.
I'll be looking into adding a rematch option to the score screen, but this will be low on the list for now.
On April 27 2011 23:34 medium.ai wrote:
I have to criticise one huge issue about this very awesome map:
Why does the player get warned? Its a much better lesson if the player just gets nuked as soon as he has stockpiled to much money. That way ur forced to pay more attention to it. During a normal game noone will look at ur money but yourself.
When I originally made this map for myself I made it very hardcore. This resulted in macro games that ended way too quickly because losing a bunch of workers abruptly was as good as typing 'GG'. Also, you can't imagine how pissed off people were when they were unexpectedly nuked. The warning works well IMO, because it allows you to recover and continue to macro better. Also, you do get penalized in score if you trigger the warning.
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I wonder what's the furthest macro level you can get? The highest i got to was 7x.
Great map btw! I enjoy playing on it
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Would like to see it on the EU server
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Thanks for this map! Also can't wait for the EU ones. :D
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would love to try this on EU <3 looks great in the replays
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hey this map is fun but it's having some negative effect with me and my mates, were around low to mid bronze and it says were good plays because we fill our buildings with que's :/ is there a way to prevent this happening?
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On April 28 2011 07:01 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
hey this map is fun but it's having some negative effect with me and my mates, were around low to mid bronze and it says were good plays because we fill our buildings with que's :/ is there a way to prevent this happening?
at the moment the only way is to stop trying to queue your units, which isn't a bad thing to try to do
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On April 28 2011 07:01 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
hey this map is fun but it's having some negative effect with me and my mates, were around low to mid bronze and it says were good plays because we fill our buildings with que's :/ is there a way to prevent this happening?
First and foremost, I would tell you to invest in another production center and pump out more units instead of wasting them on queued units. Your income is obviously outpacing your production capacity. Your friends will see the light when you keep beating them.
With that said, I really would like to do something about this. I do acknowledge that it does encourage bad habits for certain players who are concentrating on keeping a macro level they can't normally sustain.
I don't want to be too heavy handed about my approach. The game allows Protoss and Terran to queue units for a reason, maybe because it "expects" them to be more micro-intensive. I don't want to disrupt that.
My solution: Prevent players from going up in level if they queue units when they have available supply.
It'll go in on the next update, hopefully late tonight, with a bunch of other goodies.
@EU players I really appreciate the support and I promise that I'll get these maps up soon. Right now my focus is on getting the smaller, but necessary, updates in quickly. I don't want to risk having all kinds of different versions spread around right now.
After most of the needed changes are in, I'll roll out the maps everywhere and focus on larger more spread out updates.
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Besides the already suggestions I made regarding efficiency, in where you could have three separate measures such as: 1.) not production queued up, 1.) not getting supply blocked, 3.) always using larvae, constant barracks/fact/starport production, constant gateway/chrono usage.
Another suggestion would be to only have this mod for 2-3 maps on bnet at a time. As this would allow for an easier time for people to find games.
I suggest xel naga caverns, tal darim altar, and crevasse as these imo are the best macro maps out there right now, and pretty balanced for all races.
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I think your standards may be too low. It keeps saying I'm grandmaster level despite the fact that I'm in gold.
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This is a good map, especially for noticing those times when you forget a production cycle while microing
I think it is a little biased towards Terran though, being able to stay under 150/150 all the time, even at 5+ bases, due to building offensive Turrets/PFs/Sensor Towers?
+ Show Spoiler +
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On April 29 2011 12:59 Bxk wrote:This is a good map, especially for noticing those times when you forget a production cycle while microing I think it is a little biased towards Terran though, being able to stay under 150/150 all the time, even at 5+ bases, due to building offensive Turrets/PFs/Sensor Towers? + Show Spoiler +
But that completely defeats the purpose of the map. Would you ever mass PFs and turrets in a real game? (rhetorical question of course)
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Thanks for the feedback everyone. I've added what I plan to publish tonight to the OP. This may slip into the weekend; for some reason I'm still at work 
@Jambi, for the sake of providing people the ideal conditions to practice on, I'm trying to put this on as many maps as I can. What would be really helpful are suggestions of how I/we can advertise the channel better; so that there were more players there who were looking for a game.
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On April 29 2011 10:55 sebmathguy wrote:
I think your standards may be too low. It keeps saying I'm grandmaster level despite the fact that I'm in gold.
perhaps you have the macro of a grandmaster, but lack the decision making/micro of a high level player.
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On April 30 2011 14:03 kunstderfugue wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 10:55 sebmathguy wrote:
I think your standards may be too low. It keeps saying I'm grandmaster level despite the fact that I'm in gold. perhaps you have the macro of a grandmaster
At 120 APM, I would think not.
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On April 30 2011 15:38 sebmathguy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 14:03 kunstderfugue wrote:On April 29 2011 10:55 sebmathguy wrote:
I think your standards may be too low. It keeps saying I'm grandmaster level despite the fact that I'm in gold. perhaps you have the macro of a grandmaster At 120 APM, I would think not.
120 apm is pretty high and sufficient to get to high master with all races. Sjow playes with less then 100 apm and whitera +-120-140apm.
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On April 30 2011 15:38 sebmathguy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 14:03 kunstderfugue wrote:On April 29 2011 10:55 sebmathguy wrote:
I think your standards may be too low. It keeps saying I'm grandmaster level despite the fact that I'm in gold. perhaps you have the macro of a grandmaster At 120 APM, I would think not.
You're talking about sc2 right. 120 is fine this game is easy
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Great idea for a map! Realy like it as an idea. Havnt tried it though!
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uhhh i got a 37000 score, what does that mean, grandmaster x1 cushion?
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I have been a low-mid diamond player for the 9 months of SC2's retail life. My biggest limiting factor has been by far my macro and more specifically my ability to micro + macro.
After only a couple of games in the macro or die trainer I can already tell this can be an outstanding tool to help me remember to do both. Thank you so much for making this.
Edit: After playing through a few more games I would suggest a stricter grading scale because I had the rank of Grandmaster (no I did not mass PF's or turrets, some unit ques but nothing outrageous) and I know that I am no where close to even a masters level much less GM.
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I guess the idea is that there are many more factors than just macro to be a grandmaster player.
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Awesome map, enjoying it so far.
Some feedback and questions:
I was wondering if it would be possible to add on something like a restart function + a startup menu as seen on something like YABOT? The menu could function similarly to YABOT in which you could restart the map without actually leaving the game, changes races, alter behavior of the AI, and maybe even include records of past timings/scores.
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The red nuke circle can be seen, without vision.
Can't see the nuke animation, but you can tell when your opponent gets nuked.
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Could you also implement the same warning whenever you stop making workers for an extended period of time? Of course it would be tricky to implement properly for the various builds/situations, but it would still be quite handy.
Also, this needs to be on EU!
<333
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Version 1.1 is here.
Your feedback was processed into a much more polished version of the Macro Trainer. Thank you all and keep it coming. It is much more challenging. Enjoy.
Version 1.1 Changelist
- Bug Fix - Score Screen will now show your average cushion factor, not the cushion you had before game ended.
- Green Tea AI 0.82 added - thank you ptanhkhoa
- Bug Fix Corrected credit for GSL Crevasse Author so that JackyPrime was acknowledged in the map description.
- Score Modifiers added to account for opponent skill level:
- Very Easy AI = 10% of score
- Easy AI = 30% of score
- Medium AI = 50% of score
- Hard AI = 60% of score
- Very Hard AI = 70% of score
- Insane AI = 80% of score
- Player = 100% of score
- Efficiency Score, currently determined by (army killed value - your army value)/cushion will only post positive rewards at the end game.
- Players will receive extra bonuses added to their Efficiency Score for the following:
- Spreading Creep Tumors
- Using Chronoboost
- Maintaining an army of veteran units
- Players will be prevented from leveling up if they fail to do any of the following:
- Keep stockpile within their current cushion
- Keep hatcheries injected
- Keep energy on Nexuses below 60, and energy on CCs below 110
- Prevent extended supply blockages
- Players will only be able to queue a maximum of 2 units at any building (4 if a reactor is attached).
- Backoff Timer will be included when player goes from Max Food to something below it. You will now have 30 seconds before being penalized to spend your stockpile or return to max (>= 190 food) army.
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nice, but what if you and your opponent are both 200 supply?? do you really wanna spam hatcherys??
Also, can you change the adjutant to an executor for toss and queen for Zerg?
I would be soo happy
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On May 02 2011 09:32 Dragom wrote:
nice, but what if you and your opponent are both 200 supply?? do you really wanna spam hatcherys??
I would be soo happy
Why would you need to spam hatcheries? I don't understand.
On May 02 2011 09:32 Dragom wrote:
Also, can you change the adjutant to an executor for toss and queen for Zerg?
I would be soo happy
I wish I could, but I didn't create the audio; I'm just reusing it. There isn't any applicable audio for the Executor or the Queen.
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This is fantastic, and failing is way more fun then just going to a score screen. I get the highest level of macro each time, and my normal games usually have massive trust funds mid-late game. Its good practice. Also, the green tea AI is a massive improvement over the vanilla AI.
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On May 03 2011 04:25 fritz87 wrote:
This is fantastic, and failing is way more fun then just going to a score screen. I get the highest level of macro each time, and my normal games usually have massive trust funds mid-late game. Its good practice. Also, the green tea AI is a massive improvement over the vanilla AI.
You can get the leaderboard to come up at the end if the computer surrenders and you type 'gg' (without quotes); or if your human opponent types 'gg' first.
I still need to work on this for team games, but it is also useful for 2v2 right now.
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Will this come on the EU server ? D:
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Updated again, twice actually. First time introduced a few bugs, that I've corrected. If 'create game' was unavailable for you, it's probably because I was publishing at the time. I think Battle.Net 2.0 requires players to logout/login in order to update to new versions of custom games.
- Show completed objectives and failed objectives each chance the user has for promotion, before presenting them with their current level.
- Calculate computers' scores and post them on the leaderboard; The computer will not get nuked when their timer goes to 0.
- [Bug Fix] Don't increase macro level if player is not mining.
- [Bug Fix] Game automatically goes to score screen when AI surrenders.
- [Bug Fix] No more stalemates. Victory/Defeat menus pop up 45 seconds after hitting 'gg' or after seeing the scoreboard.
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Nice concept, will try it once it launches on EU!
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Awesome, because I'm terrible. A few things I noticed, it still yells at you for not injecting hatcheries at 200/200 with full larvae, and if you've been maxed for a while and lose your army, and can't instantly get back to maxed, you get nuked.
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On May 04 2011 07:30 Ruscour wrote:
Awesome, because I'm terrible. A few things I noticed, it still yells at you for not injecting hatcheries at 200/200 with full larvae, and if you've been maxed for a while and lose your army, and can't instantly get back to maxed, you get nuked.
Thank you. I'm a bit partial but I think it's awesome too. =p
I will add checks for Maxed larvae on all hatcheries and maxed research & maxed food for Protoss nexuses (Nexii?)
My opinion on losing a max army and not being able to to spend all your money or reach max again is that if you can't do it in 60 seconds then you're not macroing properly in the late game. The point of this mod is to encourage people to put their resources to work for them. If you are sitting on 200/200 and can't replenish it quick enough, should you cancel out against another 200/200, then you shouldn't be sacrificing your entire army.
- Run some recon missions with (a) small group(s) to punish your opponent and abuse the fact that you can suicide those units and replenish them instantly to stay at maxed.
- Build offensively and encroach upon your enemies turf in a calculated push.
- Make enough production centers to get you back to 190 quickly.
- STOP GATHERING RESOURCES! Have some/all of your workers give up their seats at the table for more capable military units. (You should not be triggering nuke countdowns if you are not gathering resources; once started countdowns will go to zero if you don't max out or spend the excess.
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Plz get it on EU servers...thrilled to try ;-)
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Played this map in its early stages with Mr. Major himself observing. Was a good time for all until my 200/200 suddenly lost a few units and my huge stockpile of resources ready to burn caused my 3rd base mineral line to get a nice helping of nuclear radiation. Sad face.
I don't know if he's fixed that (or if that even needed fixing) but nonetheless its still a fun map :D
(I has grandmaster cushion :3)
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Tried watching this map with some friends as a Ref, not a spectator. The map failed to start until I left the game. Haven't tried it as a spectator yet, but I thought I'd report the possible bug.
Edit: Spectator didn't work either. This was on the metalopolis map.
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On May 04 2011 18:15 Drascus wrote:
Tried watching this map with some friends as a Ref, not a spectator. The map failed to start until I left the game. Haven't tried it as a spectator yet, but I thought I'd report the possible bug.
Edit: Spectator didn't work either. This was on the metalopolis map.
I came across the same problem trying to demo the map for some friends.
In very rare instances, you can press ready while another player is initializing; this throws everyone out of sync and they are stuck waiting endlessly for the other player(s) to ready up. I'm going to fix this tonight.
Another problem, which I fixed around 2am EST, was that the map was counting refs and spectators as active players. This was very annoying and caused a lot oF unexpected behavior.
EDIT: The fix I made last night didn't do anything. Back to the drawing board.
For now, I've cut the maps down to 3 - Xel'naga, Metalopolis, and Tal'Darim. This will help me find and fix bugs faster. EU guys, the plan is to add better team support and persistent leaderboards first then work on publishing to EU. There are a few barriers I'm running into for the last part;
- No EU account
- Even with an EU account, I can't have NA and EU versions installed at the same time.
- Need someone to localize strings
@GGpope Thank you for the kind words. Things have changed to make it more challenging and to account for injects and energy usage.
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This looks great my macro around the end of midgame starts to slip so this should help I will try it when I get home and leave a comment. Thanks!
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So excited to get home and play this! I can't wait to try it out!
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Added new screenshots to op to highlight some of the newer features.
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After playing DotA for ages (thus gaining sweet micro), this has greatly helped my macro, which was my biggest weakness by far. Nothing like getting nuked for failing.
Major, you need someone to publish to SEA? I could do that.
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On May 04 2011 22:24 _Major wrote:
I came across the same problem trying to demo the map for some friends.
In very rare instances, you can press ready while another player is initializing; this throws everyone out of sync and they are stuck waiting endlessly for the other player(s) to ready up. I'm going to fix this tonight.
Another problem, which I fixed around 2am EST, was that the map was counting refs and spectators as active players. This was very annoying and caused a lot oF unexpected behavior.
EDIT: The fix I made last night didn't do anything. Back to the drawing board.
For now, I've cut the maps down to 3 - Xel'naga, Metalopolis, and Tal'Darim. This will help me find and fix bugs faster. EU guys, the plan is to add better team support and persistent leaderboards first then work on publishing to EU. There are a few barriers I'm running into for the last part;
- No EU account
- Even with an EU account, I can't have NA and EU versions installed at the same time.
- Need someone to localize strings
@GGpope Thank you for the kind words. Things have changed to make it more challenging and to account for injects and energy usage.
I would like to really thank you for making this map btw, and staffing it with a more challenging AI than the blizzard AI. It really is a terrific training tool overall. I've been messing around with the map editor and I know how much work something like this is. You're awesome for doing it for the community.
edit: I'm bilingual, English/Spanish, and would be happy to translate the strings into Spanish if you want. PM me a list of strings and I'll PM back the translations next to their English versions.
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I am a little concerned about the AI however. It seems to be extremely aggressive in that it pretty much Zealot rushes me every game. It makes testing out new builds very difficult when you always have to be prepared for a rush every game.
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Thank you Drascus. It was a lot of work, but has been well worth the time so far. I will take you up on the translations when I'm convinced the current strings are final.
On May 05 2011 16:14 scottycopter wrote:
I am a little concerned about the AI however. It seems to be extremely aggressive in that it pretty much Zealot rushes me every game. It makes testing out new builds very difficult when you always have to be prepared for a rush every game.
Hi scottycoptor,
In Green Tea AI, Very Easy = Blizzard's very hard AI. I will be changing this to be Blizzard's medium AI in the future. I suggest that you use the Easy setting, this is the only AI without vision hack/cheat. However, even then you have to be viligant about driving away or killing scouts before they can see anything. If Green Tea senses a weakness it will try to exploit it.
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What happens when I'm saving resources to pop out a bunch of infestors just as the energy upgrade passes 30 seconds? Or what happens if I get dropped and don't want to make units at my hatch which is about to go down? or similar for toss/terran if you lose a key production.tech structure?
I think there are too many situations where you can stockpile money legit but nonetheless this map is good to train up ur macro in the lower leagues.
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On May 05 2011 22:45 DarthXX wrote:
What happens when I'm saving resources to pop out a bunch of infestors just as the energy upgrade passes 30 seconds? Or what happens if I get dropped and don't want to make units at my hatch which is about to go down? or similar for toss/terran if you lose a key production.tech structure?
I think there are too many situations where you can stockpile money legit but nonetheless this map is good to train up ur macro in the lower leagues.
I'm not going to pretend that there won't be downsides to the limitations created by the cushion, but for the most part I think they are very minor.
For your infestor bit, post a BO and timings, or better yet a replay. It's really hard to answer questions like this without seeing how you got to the point of deciding how many infestors you're going to save for and when.
If you get dropped and don't want to make units at your hatch, I'm assuming you are sacrificing this hatch because you don't think you'll be able to stop the drop within 30 seconds. IMO, this is a clear indication that you should do 1 of the 2, if you don't have enough larvae at your other hatches:
- spend that excess money on a new hatch/production/tech strutcture somewhere else, you obviously need the extra production capacity to keep up with your income.
- or putting up static defenses to help against a drop in your other bases, you obviously can afford to spend some of your surplus on defense to ensure that your income doesn't get hurt any more.
*BTW, I FIXED THE SPECTATOR BUG!!! I got fancy and tried to use talking animations in MP. Evidently this will not work in a game with spectators.
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This is the best map ever!!! As a bronze player trying to climb the ladder, I feel like this map was created with the noob player in mind. After just 1 round, I was able to locate my weaknesses (I have a lot!) and improve them in my ladder games. I love the warnings that it provides and how it doesn't allow for excessive queuing. This map rules! 10/10
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I always like these concepts but I think this needs to be more challenging. Currently, APM trainer on blistering sands map has this one beat in terms of benefit to the player.
If you can execute any build on APM trainer without losing a single probe, you can play at a masters level. That's how I train my new builds to make sure I'm ready to use them without having my overall game fall to shit. How does this custom map help a player on the same level?
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On May 06 2011 04:07 Jayrod wrote:
Currently, APM trainer on blistering sands map has this one beat in terms of benefit to the player.
Which Custom Map do yo mean exactly? Is it called "APM trainer"?
Greetz D!kane
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On May 06 2011 04:07 Jayrod wrote:
I always like these concepts but I think this needs to be more challenging. Currently, APM trainer on blistering sands map has this one beat in terms of benefit to the player.
If you can execute any build on APM trainer without losing a single probe, you can play at a masters level. That's how I train my new builds to make sure I'm ready to use them without having my overall game fall to shit. How does this custom map help a player on the same level?
How does an APM trainer compare to a Macro trainer? The titles of each UMS say it all. If you want help adding extra probe micro cycles into your Build Order then Macro or Die is definitely not the place to go.
Macro or Die is about making smart decisions with your resources in time-sensitive situations, maximizing your efficiency, and being hyper aware of your economies' status at all times.
If you think it is too easy, then up the AI level or play against another Master player. You'd be amazed at how humbling it can be when another player exposes areas where your macro ability falls to that of a silver player.
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Hi scottycoptor,
In Green Tea AI, Very Easy = Blizzard's very hard AI. I will be changing this to be Blizzard's medium AI in the future. I suggest that you use the Easy setting, this is the only AI without vision hack/cheat. However, even then you have to be viligant about driving away or killing scouts before they can see anything. If Green Tea senses a weakness it will try to exploit it.
Gotcha. Thanks for the response and I'll make the necessary changes next time I play with the AI.
Two other things that did come up though:
1) I noticed that there are no announcements on the left side of the screen of in-game events (units/buildings completed, chrono boost expired, workers under attack, etc)
2) If I engage in a battle and it ends unfavorably for me, my supply drops pretty steeply. This causes my resources to greatly exceed my cushion and triggers a nuke. While I can normally start rebuilding quick enough, it can sometimes be problematic. If there were a 20-30s delay in cushion dropping after a food loss, I think this could be prevented. No idea how feasible (or necessary) that change would be though.
As a final note, I did want to say that these maps were a fantastic idea!
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This looks pretty awesome actually! I'll make sure to give this a try tonight with a few friends
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just played a game now, got so many warnings for the nuke. I dont care what kind of defects or bugs it still has, it helps me a lot! THANKS.
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On May 06 2011 09:12 scottycopter wrote:
Gotcha. Thanks for the response and I'll make the necessary changes next time I play with the AI.
Two other things that did come up though:
1) I noticed that there are no announcements on the left side of the screen of in-game events (units/buildings completed, chrono boost expired, workers under attack, etc)
I removed these because there was a lot of things coming up on the screen at once, and I felt that these were becoming more of a distraction than anything.
On May 06 2011 09:12 scottycopter wrote:
2) If I engage in a battle and it ends unfavorably for me, my supply drops pretty steeply. This causes my resources to greatly exceed my cushion and triggers a nuke. While I can normally start rebuilding quick enough, it can sometimes be problematic. If there were a 20-30s delay in cushion dropping after a food loss, I think this could be prevented. No idea how feasible (or necessary) that change would be though.
As a final note, I did want to say that these maps were a fantastic idea!
Why is your supply dropping? Your cushion is based on your supplies available not supplies used. Do you play Zerg? If you are bringing overlords with your army, you should anticipate building some as you move out.
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On May 06 2011 11:52 _Major wrote:
Why is your supply dropping? Your cushion is based on your supplies available not supplies used. Do you play Zerg? If you are bringing overlords with your army, you should anticipate building some as you move out.
I thought it was based off supply being used. Seems I just have a really bad habit of not macroing during battles then D:
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Would really like to have this map on EU server! _Major if there anything I could do to hurry the process to get it to EU, please tell.
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so if my protoss opponent goes dt's and im saving my cc energy for scans im going to get nuked?
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Playing a standard PvT this was really great practice for working on mechanics. I'll report back when I find any significant problems that haven't already been pointed out. Not bad.
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On May 06 2011 15:59 Dubz wrote:
so if my protoss opponent goes dt's and im saving my cc energy for scans im going to get nuked?
You've got a 110 energy cushion, if you need more you're better off building turrets.
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On May 06 2011 19:12 Rean wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 15:59 Dubz wrote:
so if my protoss opponent goes dt's and im saving my cc energy for scans im going to get nuked? You've got a 110 energy cushion, if you need more you're better off building turrets.
^^^This.
Also, you will only get nuked for failing to spend your harvested resources efficiently. If you fail to maximize the potential of your macro by getting supply blocked, or sitting on energy, then you will only be prevented from going up in level on the next opportunity.
This happens for two reasons:
- Your avg macro level is a multiplier for your score; high levels will have much higher scores. The community has expressed that no one should be rewarded for failing to use the macro unit abilities correctly.
- Higher levels make your cushion smaller. If you are not making the most of your economy's potential at the cushion you are at, then it would be cruel and irresponsible to force you to do better with a smaller cushion.
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can anybody tell me what does Silver (x17 cushion) mean? it shows on the right hand bottom of my screen when i was playing. and sometimes i will have something like Gold (x15) and stuff?
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GreenTea ai seems to be harder than the ai that comes with the game itself. Would you guys please add the following three very commonly played maps? i need some practice on different maps. it really helps!! thanks.
Delta Quadrant
Shattered Temple
Lost Temple
Enjoy!
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... ... wish the above three maps can be added as 1v1 maps. ...
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On May 06 2011 23:35 mnmnmmnnmnmn wrote:
can anybody tell me what does Silver (x17 cushion) mean? it shows on the right hand bottom of my screen when i was playing. and sometimes i will have something like Gold (x15) and stuff?
Your cushion is the amount of resources you are allowed to stockpile before the Ghosts will be sent out to Nuke you. This is determined by the factor shown and your supplies available. It's a rough estimate, but silver players tend to keep their resources at about 17 or 18 times their supplies available (i.e. @ 100 food, they are floating 1700-1800 resources, etc...)
The game periodically checks to see if you are satisfying all objectives, and after these checks it will show you your current level in the bottom right of the screen. If you are completing all of your objectives for that round, then it will raise your level, lowering your cushion. If you aren't then it will do nothing. If you are letting nukes go off then it will lower your level, raising your cushion.
Everyone starts out at the Max cushion level - Bronze (20x). Over time their applied macro abilities will determine what level they are able to reach. This means that the early game stages are essentially the same for all players, and that there is still flexibility for stockpiling if you want to. But, as players get to 6 minutes into the game (the fastest you can reach Diamond level) the true differences in ability will be obvious. Good players will be able to keep producing both supply, workers, and army - leaving them with very little leftover resources.
Being able to reach a high level is only part of this. What's more important is staying at a high level. The score screen will show your average macro level in contrast to your current level, which you will see throughout the game. This is determined by the amount of resources gathered at each level, and is the best indicator of how well you played.
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This UMS map is amazing, I find it so helpful when training my macro, and just learning the mechanics of SC2. This map really made me look at my weaknesses and helped me adjust, even if it is just planting more production buildings instead of being lazy and queuing up masses of units.
Also, I'm midish Bronze, and like ~17 minutes into the game, it thinks I'm "Grandmaster Level" macro, with a cushion of x6?
EDIT: I was playing with a friend (Silver level) 2v2 today, and whenever he "donated" me resources (most likely because he was floating too many resources) I would be repeatedly nuked, so I was wondering, would there be any way to penalize (less) a player who receives many resources from an ally? I mean I know a solution is just not to be "gifted" resources in the first place, but that was just an issue that I encountered while playing this map.
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On May 07 2011 12:49 Argonx16 wrote:
This UMS map is amazing, I find it so helpful when training my macro, and just learning the mechanics of SC2. This map really made me look at my weaknesses and helped me adjust, even if it is just planting more production buildings instead of being lazy and queuing up masses of units.
Also, I'm midish Bronze, and like ~17 minutes into the game, it thinks I'm "Grandmaster Level" macro, with a cushion of x6?
EDIT: I was playing with a friend (Silver level) 2v2 today, and whenever he "donated" me resources (most likely because he was floating too many resources) I would be repeatedly nuked, so I was wondering, would there be any way to penalize (less) a player who receives many resources from an ally? I mean I know a solution is just not to be "gifted" resources in the first place, but that was just an issue that I encountered while playing this map.
I'm glad that you like it, and that you are finding it to be helpful. I applaud you for reaching a level of x6. Were you able to keep it to the end? Or was the game essentially over at 17 minutes? I'd love to see the replay.
As for the gifted resources, i think it's kind of cool that this can happen. The best advice I can offer is to use what you can and give the rest back =p
I'm very interested in hearing about your 2v2 experience too. Were you playing against AI or human opponents? I've had mixed results with the AI. Sometimes when they reach 3 bases, the sheer number of units and calculations brings my computer to its knees.
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The game was essentially over at ~17 minutes because my ally was attacked by both of the AIs (one on Medium, one on Very Hard), then my ally "gifted" me ~1000 minerals, or something insane, got nuked once, then raped by the AI's.
As evident, we played 2v2 against the AI, and enjoyed it, because the first game we played, my friend got 7 pooled *AND* drone rushed. But, if you want a 2v2 replay, I could find that replay, or just play another game tomorrow.
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Perfectly executed fast expands are still punished, because the cushion thinks allowing 400 minerals for a Nexus is bad when you have 34 food. This includes the 3 gate sentry expand ... =/
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This looks really cool, if i have anytime to play this ill give it a try my macro is a bit off but not alot we'll see
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http://drop.sc/9963
My 50~min game vs hard AI (its way harder than blizzard's AI :D) where i spammed CCs
Looking foward to future changes to these maps
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On May 07 2011 22:02 ScythedBlade wrote:
Perfectly executed fast expands are still punished, because the cushion thinks allowing 400 minerals for a Nexus is bad when you have 34 food. This includes the 3 gate sentry expand ... =/
As in you trigger the timer? Or that you can't avoid being nuked? Triggering the timer isn't a big deal early in the game. You might be prevented from moving up a round once. Also, I posted a replay of Inori doing 3 gate sentry expand with no problems on Xel' Naga in the OP. Let me know what the difference is.
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your Country52797 Posts
Cool map.
Like others have noticed, FE's are punished. But, I played zerg and despite having horrible macro problems with it, I didn't get nuked once. I got warned 3 times, once when I FE'd.
I didn't notice a different AI...
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On May 08 2011 00:48 NiTroSc2 wrote:http://drop.sc/9963My 50~min game vs hard AI (its way harder than blizzard's AI :D) where i spammed CCs Looking foward to future changes to these maps
GODDAMN DUDE! That game truly deserves the EPIC moniker.
+ Show Spoiler +
That's the Starcraft I remember! Bravo! I'm adding to the OP.
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On May 08 2011 03:30 TheAwesomeTemplar wrote:
Cool map.
Like others have noticed, FE's are punished. But, I played zerg and despite having horrible macro problems with it, I didn't get nuked once. I got warned 3 times, once when I FE'd.
I didn't notice a different AI...
As in you don't notice a difference between Green Tea and Blizzard AI? I urge you to try again; maybe the opponent you faced off against chose something you hard counter?
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Is a countdown triggered if I attempt to go 15 CC?
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On May 08 2011 04:00 Selkie wrote:
Is a countdown triggered if I attempt to go 15 CC?
Yes. You will trigger the countdown as soon as you hit 361 minerals. You'll be able to get to 400 and put down a Command Center well before the Nuke launches. The only "penalty" is that you'll be on the 19x cushion one round longer than someone who didn't 15 CC. It's not going to affect the overall game.
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very cool, ill deff be trying this. thx
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This looks like exactly what i've been looking for for a while.
Any chance of seeing it in EU ? I can help if needed.
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I tried this on NA server and it's a really good trainer! It's just that I tend to have ~1sec delay when playing on NA. Anytime we'd see this on SEA?
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I would love to play this on EU server. Any chance to get the maps here?
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please upload this map on EU - can anyone send me this via mail?
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Yeah would be awesome to get it over to EU.
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On May 07 2011 00:59 _Major wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 23:35 mnmnmmnnmnmn wrote:
can anybody tell me what does Silver (x17 cushion) mean? it shows on the right hand bottom of my screen when i was playing. and sometimes i will have something like Gold (x15) and stuff? Your cushion is the amount of resources you are allowed to stockpile before the Ghosts will be sent out to Nuke you. This is determined by the factor shown and your supplies available. It's a rough estimate, but silver players tend to keep their resources at about 17 or 18 times their supplies available (i.e. @ 100 food, they are floating 1700-1800 resources, etc...) The game periodically checks to see if you are satisfying all objectives, and after these checks it will show you your current level in the bottom right of the screen. If you are completing all of your objectives for that round, then it will raise your level, lowering your cushion. If you aren't then it will do nothing. If you are letting nukes go off then it will lower your level, raising your cushion. Everyone starts out at the Max cushion level - Bronze (20x). Over time their applied macro abilities will determine what level they are able to reach. This means that the early game stages are essentially the same for all players, and that there is still flexibility for stockpiling if you want to. But, as players get to 6 minutes into the game (the fastest you can reach Diamond level) the true differences in ability will be obvious. Good players will be able to keep producing both supply, workers, and army - leaving them with very little leftover resources. Being able to reach a high level is only part of this. What's more important is staying at a high level. The score screen will show your average macro level in contrast to your current level, which you will see throughout the game. This is determined by the amount of resources gathered at each level, and is the best indicator of how well you played.
Thanks so much for your detailed explaination Major.
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FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU I want this map on EU, But k, Take your time and fix all bugs you can find, ;D
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Is there any way to get the map to not level me down if I'm going to do a 10 overlord extractor trick?
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On May 09 2011 13:22 dydtaylor wrote:
Is there any way to get the map to not level me down if I'm going to do a 10 overlord extractor trick?
It doesn't level you down, it just won't level you up because you will stay supply blocked for too long. Please don't sweat the early point differences, I promise you that the effect it will have on your overall score is negligible that early in the game. The score is based on your average level.
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I'm having a fantastic time playing this. I usually warm up with a few custom vs computer matches just to remember to build supply depots.
This is so much better
But I am worried it will detract from my game intelligence in the short term. Right now I'm feeling the burn from bad macro.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
Cant wait for this on the EU servers it looks really good
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On May 10 2011 06:08 Probe1 wrote:I'm having a fantastic time playing this. I usually warm up with a few custom vs computer matches just to remember to build supply depots. This is so much better But I am worried it will detract from my game intelligence in the short term. Right now I'm feeling the burn from bad macro.
Your first couple of Macro Or Die replays will show that you made stupid mistakes that you wouldn't have normally made, provided you are playing against an opponent somewhat close to you in skill. Scouting is probably the first thing to go. This is because you are completely focused on not getting nuked. It is a good thing! You are learning something new, so you will have to make room for it in your game sense.
After this break-in period, you don't even worry about nukes anymore. You're now concentrating more on keeping your level high. 1 or 2 more games of chasing the Grandmaster label and you remember that it's still all about winning! It is at this point that you're able to combine the old and new while playing. At the very least, you are more aware of your economy and supply when you play. There are some other side effects I have noticed:
- My scouting is much more informative. I'm more aware of my opponent's economy and supply now, and what that means in the current situation.
- My play is not 100% reactive. I'm now able to produce based on the best way to hurt my opponent instead of the best way to deflect their attack and counter.
- I can engage in battle, expand, and reinforce without falling behind; and a lot of times pulling ahead because the other guy isn't playing like he'll get nuked if he slips up.
The downside, and this just requires playing more games to get over, is that the constant feedback becomes a very good tool to help your pacing. The best way I can describe this is that it's similar to running/biking while listening to music versus doing it with no music. It's much easier to pace yourself with music than it is without; and most people prefer it (just watch the streams). They still are just as fast and capable without the music though, they just have to stay focused on the race at hand.
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Can't find them on EU, would love to play them. :/
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Would love to see this on EU
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Is there a way to restart the game yet ? I Would love to be able to type "-r" or "-reset" in chat and have the map start from fresh. They have this option in YABOT, makes it easy to start fresh after you make a big error and dont want to continue
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as someone who has been in bronze league since i got the game on release day, i would love to be able to try this map
any chance of seeing it on EU servers?
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I'm working on it. Got sidetracked trying to figure out how to localize strings for EU. Is there anyone that could offer assistance with how to do this in a NA editor?
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lol wow just read that blizz very hard=greentea medium? i was just playing greentea very hard, that was ludicrous, the thing was playing with over 600 apm o.O
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On May 13 2011 05:38 nitesoul wrote:
lol wOw just read that blizz very hard=greentea medium? i was just playing greentea very hard, that was ludicrous, the thing was playing with over 600 apm o.O
Blizz Very Hard = GT Very Easy 
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Hey Just tried this map its awesome tho i am an low diamond player I got grandmaster type macro according to this map O_O lol here is the replay
http://replayfu.com/r/NL0n5t
edit oh yeah i didn't know wtf was going on at the end he said something like he lost and if i wanted to play another so my natural reaction was to say gg lol so it ended the game i was like FUUUUU
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On May 13 2011 07:44 Ghosthawk wrote:Hey Just tried this map its awesome tho i am an low diamond player I got grandmaster type macro according to this map O_O lol here is the replay http://replayfu.com/r/NL0n5tedit oh yeah i didn't know wtf was going on at the end he said something like he lost and if i wanted to play another so my natural reaction was to say gg lol so it ended the game i was like FUUUUU
Good Game Ghosthawk, and thank you for the replay. I saw that you preemptively typed 'gg'. One or two more secs and it would have given you the win automatically.
Have you tried Hard difficulty yet? Medium is a great practice difficulty for Bronze and Silver players because it allows for a lot more mistakes, but still is challenging enough.
Hard seems like it would be more challenging for you. There were instances where you weren't mining gas on your natural, you were distance mining, and you were at 130-140/200 supply for a very long time. The more difficult AIs will help you be more efficient in these areas.
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These are amazing maps!
Is there a set timer when it checks for the constraints? Because it seems like I have my builds timed to pop out my first queens pretty much right before then causing me to get a red X for that check, or my larvae will have just popped on my natural's hatch and as I'm going to inject the round scores.
Not a big deal, but a bit annoying when you've pressed 'V' and the round scores before you click your hatch.
Also my friend and I 2v'd against 2 easy random AIs on Tal'Darim Altar LE, the Zerg 6-pooled and the Protoss just did a 2-gate expand. It's like they planned it 
Edit for replay:
Fyresoul, sohcahtoa vs Computer, Computer
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any chance we can get this on the SEA server? Thanks in advance!
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Sooner you will put it on EU we stop spam you to do this ;-)
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Do you still need help localizing strings? Would love to have this on EU!
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*rages at the Chronoboost nuke*
Let's say I have all tech structures and everything researched. It still punishes me for having nothing to chronoboost ._. And if I chrono a non-working building, it just nukes it. Dilemma much?
Help ._.
*on the flipside*
Never had I spent my resources this efficiently. Curse you nukes ._. (reached cushion 9x)
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Please port it to eu server. I really want to play it!
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On May 13 2011 23:53 TheDeli wrote:
*rages at the Chronoboost nuke*
Let's say I have all tech structures and everything researched. It still punishes me for having nothing to chronoboost ._. And if I chrono a non-working building, it just nukes it. Dilemma much?
Help ._.
*on the flipside*
Never had I spent my resources this efficiently. Curse you nukes ._. (reached cushion 9x)
EDIT: You don't get nuked for chronoboost failures. You only get nuked for stockpiling too many resources. Failing any of the three objectjust means you won't be promoted to next Macro level.
It's not as easy for Zergs and Protoss to spend their energy as it is for Terrans (M.U.L.E is too good). With that said, I'm reluctant to change it because I'm trying to encourage people to pound that max army into something and keep macroing. If you've got nothing left to research or produce, then what exactly are you waiting for? Attack!
If you choose not to do this then you are focusing purely on micro, which means there's no reason to promote your macro ability.
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Hi! I would love to see this maps on LA servers. Is there any way i can help you to make it possible?
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First off I'd like to say that these maps are great. And I think they will really help me macro better the more I practice with them.
But I was curious how they currently relate to blizzard AI or other leagues (if its possible to compare that). I noticed it was said that very easy = very hard blizz AI, but then also that that was going to be changed in an earlier version.
I am currently playing on easy, and winning but having my macro slip a bit. I was getting diamond-masters on very easy, and down to gold on easy. With some practice I can hopefully get it back up before moving on to medium etc.
I had a few ideas for improvements I thought might be worth considering:
1. If there was a way to restart mid game
2. if there was a way to add in build orders, so you could practice macro and practice nailing a build order at same time
Keep up the good work!
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On May 13 2011 16:40 Fyresoul wrote:These are amazing maps! Is there a set timer when it checks for the constraints? Because it seems like I have my builds timed to pop out my first queens pretty much right before then causing me to get a red X for that check, or my larvae will have just popped on my natural's hatch and as I'm going to inject the round scores. Not a big deal, but a bit annoying when you've pressed 'V' and the round scores before you click your hatch. Also my friend and I 2v'd against 2 easy random AIs on Tal'Darim Altar LE, the Zerg 6-pooled and the Protoss just did a 2-gate expand. It's like they planned it Edit for replay: Fyresoul, sohcahtoa vs Computer, Computer
The timer issue is a bug. Promotion checks are triggered by the game timer, which is off because there is no way to pause the game time and allow you to interact with the game at the same time. So the longer readying up takes, the more off the checks will feel; with a maximum error of 59 seconds.
This will be fixed when I make a bigger change to it.
Promotion check times will no longer be fixed. They will be based off of current macro level. To get into Diamond, players will need to maintain Platinum longer than they would have to maintain Silver to get into Gold.
The fix will address a lot of erroneous quotes of Master and Grandmaster when people are against a passive opponent. It may also provide some relief for those complaining about when they try to do a somewhat early expand*.
*No one has explained, shown a BO, or given a replay that has swayed me to believe that popping out 10 mutas as a Spire finishes is good Macro. So this will not do much for that; it may help in making earlier mutas more feasible though.
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On May 14 2011 04:47 SiLeNtDeViL wrote:
First off I'd like to say that these maps are great. And I think they will really help me macro better the more I practice with them.
But I was curious how they currently relate to blizzard AI or other leagues (if its possible to compare that). I noticed it was said that very easy = very hard blizz AI, but then also that that was going to be changed in an earlier version.
I am currently playing on easy, and winning but having my macro slip a bit. I was getting diamond-masters on very easy, and down to gold on easy. With some practice I can hopefully get it back up before moving on to medium etc.
I had a few ideas for improvements I thought might be worth considering:
1. If there was a way to restart mid game
2. if there was a way to add in build orders, so you could practice macro and practice nailing a build order at same time
Keep up the good work!
Thank you for the kind words.
If I had to estimate the AI's performance based on playing the ladder I'd say it's like this:
Unranked - Bronze = Very Easy
Bronze - Silver = Easy
Silver - Gold = Medium
Gold - Platinum = Hard
My advice is that you play the AI to pratice your speed and builds, and you use play against humans on a Macro Or Die map to get the experience you can only get from a scrimmage.
Rematch will be an option that resets the game from the score screen on the next update.
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wtf! this is epic!
Great job men, not much people invest their time creating nice training maps.
Go on! never let the project fall
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What an epic design for a custom map. Currently using them to train my friend up to a higher skill level. Many thanks to the creator.
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Should these work for more than 2 people? We've tried on GSL Crevasse, Tal'Darim Altar LE, and Metalopolis. But it seems to freeze for the 3rd and 4th player in FFA or 2v2 mode.
Thanks!
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On May 14 2011 14:34 Fyresoul wrote:
Should these work for more than 2 people? We've tried on GSL Crevasse, Tal'Darim Altar LE, and Metalopolis. But it seems to freeze for the 3rd and 4th player in FFA or 2v2 mode.
Thanks!
They should. I'll look into it.
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On May 14 2011 08:53 _Major wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 04:47 SiLeNtDeViL wrote:
First off I'd like to say that these maps are great. And I think they will really help me macro better the more I practice with them.
But I was curious how they currently relate to blizzard AI or other leagues (if its possible to compare that). I noticed it was said that very easy = very hard blizz AI, but then also that that was going to be changed in an earlier version.
I am currently playing on easy, and winning but having my macro slip a bit. I was getting diamond-masters on very easy, and down to gold on easy. With some practice I can hopefully get it back up before moving on to medium etc.
I had a few ideas for improvements I thought might be worth considering:
1. If there was a way to restart mid game
2. if there was a way to add in build orders, so you could practice macro and practice nailing a build order at same time
Keep up the good work! Thank you for the kind words. If I had to estimate the AI's performance based on playing the ladder I'd say it's like this: Unranked - Bronze = Very Easy Bronze - Silver = Easy Silver - Gold = Medium Gold - Platinum = Hard My advice is that you play the AI to pratice your speed and builds, and you use play against humans on a Macro Or Die map to get the experience you can only get from a scrimmage. Rematch will be an option that resets the game from the score screen on the next update.
I'm at the top of gold and I can assure you that medium is much harder than any opponent I face.
I was fiddling around with zerg and tbh I can't beat that vicious AI on easy. Either it has the map hax or it builds a perfect counter on what it scouts. Without fail. I just tried a 15 hatch- pounded in by voidrays. 14 pool/gas 21 hatch? pounded in by marine hellion.
Maybe I just suck, maybe i'm tired but that green tea is insanely good.
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Can't wait to try this, it looks great!
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On May 14 2011 20:09 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 08:53 _Major wrote:On May 14 2011 04:47 SiLeNtDeViL wrote:
First off I'd like to say that these maps are great. And I think they will really help me macro better the more I practice with them.
But I was curious how they currently relate to blizzard AI or other leagues (if its possible to compare that). I noticed it was said that very easy = very hard blizz AI, but then also that that was going to be changed in an earlier version.
I am currently playing on easy, and winning but having my macro slip a bit. I was getting diamond-masters on very easy, and down to gold on easy. With some practice I can hopefully get it back up before moving on to medium etc.
I had a few ideas for improvements I thought might be worth considering:
1. If there was a way to restart mid game
2. if there was a way to add in build orders, so you could practice macro and practice nailing a build order at same time
Keep up the good work! Thank you for the kind words. If I had to estimate the AI's performance based on playing the ladder I'd say it's like this: Unranked - Bronze = Very Easy Bronze - Silver = Easy Silver - Gold = Medium Gold - Platinum = Hard My advice is that you play the AI to pratice your speed and builds, and you use play against humans on a Macro Or Die map to get the experience you can only get from a scrimmage. Rematch will be an option that resets the game from the score screen on the next update. I'm at the top of gold and I can assure you that medium is much harder than any opponent I face. I was fiddling around with zerg and tbh I can't beat that vicious AI on easy. Either it has the map hax or it builds a perfect counter on what it scouts. Without fail. I just tried a 15 hatch- pounded in by voidrays. 14 pool/gas 21 hatch? pounded in by marine hellion. Maybe I just suck, maybe i'm tired but that green tea is insanely good.
You don't suck. You're playing Zerg. It's going to be much tougher for you then other races. You must scout and get a good sense of whether your larvae are going towards units or drones. You don't have the luxury of walling in and exploiting the AI "gung-ho" nature.
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Wow, very nice, thank you! My macro is just horrible... for me, macro is a micro in itself xD
I had to search for +macro +or +die instead of +macro +die though, +macro +die got me a bunch of irrelevant maps.
Also, I suggest Lost Temple to be implemented system. I think it's a classic map, and its just great, so...
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These maps have REALLY been helping me get better at macro.
I always seem to macro better in these maps then on the ladder.
(It keeps ranking me at GM league(X2-X5 cushion with protoss and terran,i'm high gold. :| )
But regardless,very good map!
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Right now I am getting terrible latency, and so I was wondering if it was possible to play these in the single player mode (going to versus AI) instead of multiplayer mode (joining/creating a custom game)? I really want to try these out but just can't with the lag I am experiencing on Bnet with the exception of the single player mode.
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Damn I really need these, can someone put them up on EU?
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Yeah, please. I keep checking this topic hoping they would be up on EU every day or two. =P
Pretty please!
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They are talking about it on Weapon of Choice atm and I'm glad they are. I haven't seen this before and it looks really cool. I'm a huge fan of trainer type maps. I've spend an insane amount of time with yabot. I really enjoying playing that but there is not enough pressure on as the game progresses. For that this should be amazing and I can't wait to give it a spin.
With the macro thing the economy speeds up faster and faster making it much harder but when you get supply blocked (edit I actually mean when you max out 200/200 and cannot build more unless you lose army) everything falls apart.
I would like to pre-suggest making it possible to remove the food maximum cap all together and or possibly "ditch" units. So that you can continue in very late stages where you will have lost 100's of food in army already. I think the speed from that, might not be completely realistic but that kind of pressure challenge does make for good learning challenge.
Thanks a lot man, this is gonna rock
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Sign me up for when this is on EU server. Looks like lots of fun.
This is the #1 thing I hate about the new battle.net. Just let us get the map from NA.
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I can provide an EU account if it will help.
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Port it to EU pleaaase
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On May 16 2011 01:39 Mr.Bean wrote:
I can provide an EU account if it will help.
Same here ^_^ Can't wait to play this on EU with my practice partner.
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On May 16 2011 01:33 Lizarb wrote:
This is the #1 thing I hate about the new battle.net. Just let us get the map from NA.
This. Aren't the servers connected to the Internet? Why can't they communicate with each other? These artificial barriers piss me off. MMO model = fail. Hope this isn't the same in HOTS.
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Why is this not in EU yet, i've been dying to play this, looks like a great training tool.
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On May 14 2011 08:36 _Major wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 16:40 Fyresoul wrote:These are amazing maps! Is there a set timer when it checks for the constraints? Because it seems like I have my builds timed to pop out my first queens pretty much right before then causing me to get a red X for that check, or my larvae will have just popped on my natural's hatch and as I'm going to inject the round scores. Not a big deal, but a bit annoying when you've pressed 'V' and the round scores before you click your hatch. Also my friend and I 2v'd against 2 easy random AIs on Tal'Darim Altar LE, the Zerg 6-pooled and the Protoss just did a 2-gate expand. It's like they planned it Edit for replay: Fyresoul, sohcahtoa vs Computer, Computer The timer issue is a bug. Promotion checks are triggered by the game timer, which is off because there is no way to pause the game time and allow you to interact with the game at the same time. So the longer readying up takes, the more off the checks will feel; with a maximum error of 59 seconds. This will be fixed when I make a bigger change to it. Promotion check times will no longer be fixed. They will be based off of current macro level. To get into Diamond, players will need to maintain Platinum longer than they would have to maintain Silver to get into Gold.The fix will address a lot of erroneous quotes of Master and Grandmaster when people are against a passive opponent. It may also provide some relief for those complaining about when they try to do a somewhat early expand*. *No one has explained, shown a BO, or given a replay that has swayed me to believe that popping out 10 mutas as a Spire finishes is good Macro. So this will not do much for that; it may help in making earlier mutas more feasible though.
would you rather poop out 2-3 at a time? if you start spire and delay any gas spending, make some additional supply and magic out 10 mutas they have alot more potential right off the bat. every time idra goes muta ling he saves gas, does a +1 attack and poops out 6-7 mutas depending on how early game goes.
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On May 07 2011 22:02 ScythedBlade wrote:
Perfectly executed fast expands are still punished, because the cushion thinks allowing 400 minerals for a Nexus is bad when you have 34 food. This includes the 3 gate sentry expand ... =/
I dunno... I did a forge first FE and didnt get punished...
I really like the map, after a few times playing it I am a lot more aware of my chronoboosts, which is one of the major things I dont use in the mid-late game.
Anyway, my game vs very hard AI (reached grandmaster with x1 cushion!):
http://drop.sc/10789
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tOW2j.jpg)
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Id really want to play this, but Im on EU :'(
Any ETA on when its released to our server?
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Here we go:o
Poll: Would you like to see this map get to eu asap?Hell yeah damnit, my macro sucks and I need this NAOW! (64) 100% Nah I can wait, or I wont even play this map. (0) 0% 64 total votes Your vote: Would you like to see this map get to eu asap? (Vote): Hell yeah damnit, my macro sucks and I need this NAOW!
(Vote): Nah I can wait, or I wont even play this map.
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This looks great! It would be great to have it on EU.
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I tried to find it on mapster. I figured if there is an US version, can't we just download it and drag it onto our European Starcraft shortcuts? To my surprise there is no map to be downloaded. I don't know why that is, but I really like it from yabot where you can play offline if you have at least authenticated your sc2 install once, and you won't have to login to your account even if you have internet access. Isn't something like that possible for this?
To further that, for someone who has access to the US version, can't they take out the map from the folder it gets downloaded to when you play it on Bnet and share it? Maybe it still needs to be localized or something but I'm sure there would be plenty of people able to do that.
Yes this might come off a bit impatient but I just don't understand why any version of a map seems to be withhold. I thought it was common practice to publish a map to a map hosting site in addition to publishing it on Bnet.
If the 2nd paragraph is accurate could someone do take the time to do it? Much appreciated by many people.
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Great map i w8 2 see it on EU soon .....XD
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Seems like a good idea but I don't see how this is different from a normal ladder game?? I mean, you will probably die in a ladder game as well if your macro is horrible..
Cool anyway
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On May 17 2011 00:32 DySeNTeN wrote:
I mean, you will probably die in a ladder game as well if your macro is horrible..
If your macro is horrible, then yea you will die in most ladder games where your opponent knows what he's doing. But you can actually get away with weak or mediocre macro on ladder all the way up to high Diamond if you know what you're doing in terms of builds etc.
I haven't played this (because it's not on EU yet... seriously -_-), so I don't know how strict it is exactly, but it should probably force you to macro a lot better than an average ladder opponent will.
It's the same as YABOT really - sure you can practice builds on ladder and say that if your build execution is bad you'll probably die in a ladder game - but ladder isn't really an effective tool to practice something systematically. You can't choose a map or match-up, there's a really long break between games, you can't restart the game whenever you want, and you often times have to play against some weird shit that you don't want to cope with while you're trying to learn something else.
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Come on guys, I want it on EU too but for the love of god STOP spamming the thread with "EU NOAW PLX".
I'm pretty sure _Major is doing the best he can to give us this map.
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Sry for being repetitive, but what are we w8ing for to get this map published in EU? Cant the maker authorize some1 with a EU account to upload? Then again I dont know hwo map publishing works with new bnet...
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Yeah, as a lot of the previous EU posters, I'd love to see it on EU, specially after reading all the hype in the comments.
If you need anyone for uploading on EU, I'm available
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I seriously wonder why it was decided that the map pool can't be shared across all servers. someone should fill us in with a log of the board meeting that made this decision ;p
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I've seen it time and time again. The original mapmaker doesn't upload his map to other regions (or takes his time like in this case) and someone else will upload it without the mapmaker's permission. You really don't want some boxer666 guy to upload your map before you and get popular using your map.
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how do i play this offline (not in multiplayer mode)?
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I played it recently, and I have to say, it's pretty awesome!! Really great job dude!! :D
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Looks awesome, would love to see this on EU. If I can help you with that just PM me.
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As I have mentioned many times in this thread, I have plans to port this over to EU. Unfortunately, Blizzard hasn't made this easy for someone who wants to continue updating their work. If I could, I would publish every update to every region at the same time.
The reason why I have not uploaded it to SCMapster is because there are still bugs in it that i'm actively fixing, and features that are getting added based off of feedback. If I were to open it up to everyone now, we'd have 20 different incompatible versions on the servers and I'd still have no way to help you get the latest in a reliable place; or the broken ones taken down.
For instance: it has come to my attention that 2v2 and FFA modes are broken. I can easily fix this for NA, but for EU and SEA it's not that simple since the pipeline is more complicated.
Rest assured that there are people who have contacted me about putting this up on EU. And it will happen! All I can ask for is your patience.
*I will be releasing text strings for people to translate into their chosen language in a couple of days. The faster I can get that out of the way the faster I can pass this off.
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On May 16 2011 14:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:I really like the map, after a few times playing it I am a lot more aware of my chronoboosts, which is one of the major things I dont use in the mid-late game. Anyway, my game vs very hard AI (reached grandmaster with x1 cushion!): http://drop.sc/10789
WOW! Great game TheRabidDeer! Constant chrono + forcefields has me shaking in my boots now. That was domination without any Colossi. I'm putting in the OP now.
NiTro if you are still following this, it would be nice to see you two play a TvP.
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Lol.. that adjutant is badass.
I look forward to checking this out
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Just spent 2 hours playing against very hard AI and only got nuked one time, definitely the best custom map I have played yet.
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Is this bug? I been trying the teldriem map and add a computer other wise it will say victory when i start, but it adds a computer when i join the game, like i tried playing vs a zerg opponate and saw the zerg was rushing lings, went back to my base defended then realized a terran was attacking me too i know its suppose to nuke you but had marines maruder and a helion so is it just adding a computer or something is this a bug? or am i just retarded some how lol
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On May 17 2011 12:00 HeeroMaki wrote:
Is this bug? I been trying the teldriem map and add a computer other wise it will say victory when i start, but it adds a computer when i join the game, like i tried playing vs a zerg opponate and saw the zerg was rushing lings, went back to my base defended then realized a terran was attacking me too i know its suppose to nuke you but had marines maruder and a helion so is it just adding a computer or something is this a bug? or am i just retarded some how lol
HeeroMaki are you switching the settings to custom? If you are on Custom it automatically adds a computer as player 2, but restricts the game mode to 2v2 on maps with more than 2 starting positions. Use Melee Settings when you setup your game.
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it doesn't let me change any of the settings on the teldariem map i can't change it from custom i had been just adding the comp then starting not changing anything
edit: I also checked online it is under melee settings not custom. I am suppose to add a computer to team two right?
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On May 17 2011 13:22 HeeroMaki wrote:
it doesn't let me change any of the settings on the teldariem map i can't change it from custom i had been just adding the comp then starting not changing anything
edit: I also checked online it is under melee settings not custom. I am suppose to add a computer to team two right?
I see what's wrong. If you use "Join Game" then it will lock the settings to the default game variant. I didn't know this. I tried to fix this, but it's really late. I don't have time to do correctly, and make sure I don't break anything else. The mod isn't handling teams correctly period. For now, I would suggest using Create Game when playing so that you can change the settings from 2v2 to 1v1.
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_Major - I Understand that having a good version for EU is hard, as you have many ladder maps to update your map too..
Now with this said, isn't it possible for you to just release one map?
Like, maybe release the oldest and most functional you got.. I don't know which, but let's say metalopolis.. Atleast this would satisfy us EU users for a month or two, which should give you plenty of time to work on the other maps, for both NA and EU servers..
I'm just saying, your map just got mentioned in Weapons of Choice, so you would be doing good by striking while the iron is hot, so to speak
I totally understand you arguement for ending up with a lot of invalid versions, and nobody want's that. So maybe if you pick the 1 map you started with, and feel comfortable around, and get 1 person to publish it on EU? This way, you should be able to maintain some level of control of the map
Again, If you need a wingman on the EU, i'm more than happy to help
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Yeah, we really don't mind a couple of bugs and the maps not getting updated on weekly basis or however often they do get updated. It's obvious from this thread that the maps are very much playable as it is. =P
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Give the man some rest, he gave a perfect reasonable answer why he won't be able to release it on eu too quick. Kudos for putting up the hard work and trying to give everyone a high quality product.
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@Doc - Aye, i totally feel ya, it's rude to push for more.. I would just wish that Wheat wouldn't have hyped it yet, as Major is missing out on a lot of attention from outside the NA server..
That's why I suggested maybe just doing 1 map, so people can get a taste of what's to come..
Anyways, keep up the good work Major, we have faith in you
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_Major: Thanks for the information. Don't take all this "please for EU servers already" as us saying you are slow at finishing this. I know that this issue is because of how Blizzard designed it (I still think this is the worst thing about bnet 2.0). Looking forward to try one of these maps out, and for it to show me what I properly already know... I belong in bronze/silver )
Is there some list I can be on to get a heads up when its on the EU server? Also, if you need any help just say so.
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On May 17 2011 03:40 jelle wrote:Yeah, as a lot of the previous EU posters, I'd love to see it on EU, specially after reading all the hype in the comments. If you need anyone for uploading on EU, I'm available
Please do it
Would love to play it, since i don't have a NA client !
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I also would love to see this map on europe,it would be perfect trainingspartner for my gf ; )
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This is a very cool idea, I need to check this out!
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Common upload this to the EU servers please
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definitely fun i played my first 2 games today.. the map started a nuke when i had perfectly timed builds like a 1raxx expand with 1 supply depot or i remember i had my 27supply supply depot (to raise me to 35) where i got to 27/27 supply before the depot finished (well timed) and it yelled at me =(
edit: also walled with my supply depots in TvP it's a completely valid strat and when they got destroyed i couldnt spend my money fast enough -___-
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I updated the Tal'Darim Altar map tonight to support 2v2 and 4 player FFA. Well at least I think I did. If you guys could let me know if it's working now that would be awesome.
Thank You.
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On May 17 2011 15:46 _Major wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 13:22 HeeroMaki wrote:
it doesn't let me change any of the settings on the teldariem map i can't change it from custom i had been just adding the comp then starting not changing anything
edit: I also checked online it is under melee settings not custom. I am suppose to add a computer to team two right? I see what's wrong. If you use "Join Game" then it will lock the settings to the default game variant. I didn't know this. I tried to fix this, but it's really late. I don't have time to do correctly, and make sure I don't break anything else. The mod isn't handling teams correctly period. For now, I would suggest using Create Game when playing so that you can change the settings from 2v2 to 1v1.
Ah, Thank you for the feed back I will do that from now on.
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Great work, looks really good. Hope you get the chance to release atleast one map on EU soon.
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Looks really good and exactly the tool I need to improve my play
The OP only mention it being available on NA, any plan for EU (and/or other servers) release ?
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On May 18 2011 19:17 adso wrote:Featured in WoCCongrats
This is awesome I was away over the weekend and didn't get to see. Thanks for letting me know. And if you're reading thank you to DJ Wheat and Chill for putting the map on the show.
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First of all this thing is awesome.
About the muta thing, tons of people save up for 6-10 muta. I feel like 6-9 is most common. It happens all the time on streams against t and p. Idra loves muta zvt. I can't recall a game where he's trickled them out 3 at a time. ostojiy (lesser known gm) goes muta against p sometimes. It's very normal to want to try to get 8-9 muta out at once.
<edit> On second thought it's good for my multitasking to make myself trick the ai by making a hatch or whatever until the spire pops because any good human player is going to be harassing and trying to do damage before the spire is done a lot of the time.
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On May 17 2011 09:25 _Major wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 14:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:I really like the map, after a few times playing it I am a lot more aware of my chronoboosts, which is one of the major things I dont use in the mid-late game. Anyway, my game vs very hard AI (reached grandmaster with x1 cushion!): http://drop.sc/10789 WOW! Great game TheRabidDeer! Constant chrono + forcefields has me shaking in my boots now. That was domination without any Colossi. I'm putting in the OP now. NiTro if you are still following this, it would be nice to see you two play a TvP.
sure we can work something out. PM with info and we can play the gamez :D
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Do you have any idea when this is going to be playable on EU?
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Yay! 2v2 is working. There's a bug at the end I have to work out to prevent that warning from popping up, but here's proof.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rJUGb.jpg)
2 Zergs vs 2 Protoss
Please don't judge me. I was testing =p, but it was a lot of fun. Tal'Darim Altar is such a versatile map.
@legek, I'm shooting to get one map up on EU at the end of the week. Right now, we're having an issue where we can publish one of the dependencies but can't test it on EU editor. If anyone has experience with this, please PM.
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On May 17 2011 21:08 jelle wrote:
@Doc - Aye, i totally feel ya, it's rude to push for more.. I would just wish that Wheat wouldn't have hyped it yet, as Major is missing out on a lot of attention from outside the NA server..
Dude I had no idea EU didn't have it when I was hyping it... but I can't help talking about things that I think are really f'in badass!
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On May 18 2011 23:43 _Major wrote:
This is awesome I was away over the weekend and didn't get to see. Thanks for letting me know. And if you're reading thank you to DJ Wheat and Chill for putting the map on the show.
Thanks for making it I'm playing the hell out of it!!!
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On May 19 2011 05:55 djWHEAT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 23:43 _Major wrote:
This is awesome I was away over the weekend and didn't get to see. Thanks for letting me know. And if you're reading thank you to DJ Wheat and Chill for putting the map on the show. Thanks for making it I'm playing the hell out of it!!!
i always knew that you are a masochist
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star2 eu/un etc addicts should realize that crossrealm publishing is way more complex than just simple copy pasting.
blizz needs to be lobbied about this on their forums, every map with locales/triggers and even data changes are concerned.
+ Show Spoiler +Well, mapmakers not admitting these editor shortcomings/complexity doesn't help either
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I have 2 suggestions - 1 a toggleable apm display, especially if this is a map to help us overall, it would be nice to be able to see my apm in the corner or under the objectives or something.
2 - a way to quickly restart the map over again without having to start a new round.
Also, how do I enable the green tea ai? I thought this came with green tea?
Also huge thanks to djWheat for announcing this on his show (even though he and his 4s team wrecked my team the other day, haha).
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I updated the Maps again.
Version 1.4
- Promotion Check Timer now starts when you gain control of your units instead of when you load into the map.
- Promotion Check Timer is based off of your level. The higher level you are the longer you will need to maintain all three objectives before it checks to see if it should promote you.
- Maps support Team Games and FFA games now. Game will end when all members of other team have 'gg'd. It should support teams of any size.
- Invisible Computer Allies/Opponents have been removed when you use 'Join Game' to start a map with more than 2 starting positions.
- NEW MAP: Araken Citadel [Macro Or Die] has been added for 3v3 practice.
- Ready button will show who you are waiting for if everyone hasn't pressed it yet.
- A lot of code cleanup in preparation for porting and localizing.
Known Bugs
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If players drop from lobby before game,there's a chance the Adjutant will fail to load and everyone will be stuck at instruction screen.
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When the loser GGs the winner is not automatically being given their points and brought to the score screen. The Winner has to type GG in order to stop the game and get their win. Will fix it back tonight.
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A warning pops up when users press 'GG'. This is harmless (I hope), but I'll get rid of it tomorrow.
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Players were getting penalized for supply blocking themselves with 9 pylon
- Sometimes the macro level does not show next to the avg cushion on score screen. (still trying to debug this)
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Other players score is not showing up at all when you start a 2v2 variant match with only 1 player on each team.
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isn't there a way that we can help uploading these to the EU servers?? I would love to try these out as well.
It really looks awesome!
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Suggestion:
Direct link somewhere so people outside US can play the map with the editor.
I'm one of those people who would love to see the map uploaded to EU, but this could be a workaround 'till you can upload it.
cheers
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I think there might have been a bug introduced in the latest build. When I start a game as Protoss, the check says I get supply blocked for >12 seconds, even though I'm building the standard 9 pylon. I've seen this on Xel'Naga Caverns and Tal'Darim Altar if the specific maps make a difference.
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On May 20 2011 04:44 snifit wrote:
I think there might have been a bug introduced in the latest build. When I start a game as Protoss, the check says I get supply blocked for >12 seconds, even though I'm building the standard 9 pylon. I've seen this on Xel'Naga Caverns and Tal'Darim Altar if the specific maps make a difference.
Thanks for point this out. I just fixed it for all of the maps. It's a little lax in the beginning but not too lax.
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SUCKS there's still no EU version...
if you don't have someone to upload on EU just PM me...i uploaded the Brood War map und EU too..
or what is the problem? :o
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push
we need a EU version ogo ogo
thx
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pleeeeeeaaase eu version:>
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Really wish people would stop spamming about EU.
From the last page:
I'm shooting to get one map up on EU at the end of the week. Right now, we're having an issue where we can publish one of the dependencies but can't test it on EU editor. If anyone has experience with this, please PM.
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Does very hard on this AI get extra income or something? I don't consider myself a great player by any means, but man does very hard on this destroy me. I was watching the replay after one of my 20 losses in a row pvt and noticed they consistently had over 1000 more resources per minute than I did off of 2-4 more svcs. So is there something going on there or are mules that damn good?
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Nevermind...just read this:
+ Very Easy : It is vanilla very hard Ai
+ Easy : GT( normal vision like player)
+ Medium : GT ( full vision )
+ Hard : Same harvest rate at the player at the beginning, then slowly increase from 1 to 1.5 times in 10 minutes.
+ Very Hard : Same harvest rate at the player at the beginning, then rapidly increase from 1 to 2.0 times in 10 minutes.
+ Insane : The get double resources at the begining. Only use 1 strategy for each races but using all the units in the game.
Now I feel a little better
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any update about the EU version yet?
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I know everyone is spamming about EU but if it doesn't take too long could you just upload the current version ( on battle.net or as a map to play from editor ) just so we europeans can test it until you find the solution for updating eu version. This is just suggestion . Btw , good job.
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The thing is.. you can't just upload a US version on EU servers.
The localization a bit more compicated.
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Yeah. Blame Blizzard for this really.
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and whats about the suggestion to upload the map so we can play it from the editor?
or is than the same problem with us/eu.
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Hey guys,
I rushed it out, so there are a few bugs; I am in the process of moving so the timing sucks. However, I'm happy to say that EU now has 2 versions of the Macro Or Die Maps up.
- Xel'Naga Caverns [Macro Or Die]
- Tal'Darim Altar [Macro Or Die]
Have fun, and thank you Vusi and Inviciouz for helping me get this sorted.
Known bugs
- Sometimes the Adjutant fails to load at the beginning; this almost always means you need to remake.
- Typing 'gg' as the winner after the score screen appears will make the options at the bottom disappear.
- Disabled options aren't available - hopefully next week I'll have them done.
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There are now atleast 2 Macro or Die maps live on the EU. Curtosy of the original Creator and Vusi who went through the trouble of getting the mod over to the other side of the big pond. Might have been more people involved but Vusi was the one who brought this exelent mod to the attention of the people in the Bronze Practice (channel) community so I'll be praising these 2 gentlemen
Edit: Thanks again, _Major and also thanks Inviciouz for bringing this to the EU.
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Oh cool, was just looking for this a couple days ago and couldn't find them. Really hope it can help my macro.
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thanx so much will try asap
thanx again, 1st game was amazing. i set a medium AI, but to my suprise, this bot was too good for me to handle... is there something wrong with AI or is it set at a certain macro-play difficulty( eg very hard but wont attack for 10 minutes or something)
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
Thanks for the EU maps
Will be playing these asap
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Please fix the pop up noise notifications that happen every 5 seconds at the start of the game. I was playing this map for a few hours and they get so annoying after awhile. would be awesome if you added a countdown after both players pressed ready!
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On May 24 2011 08:02 policymaker wrote:
thanx so much will try asap
thanx again, 1st game was amazing. i set a medium AI, but to my suprise, this bot was too good for me to handle... is there something wrong with AI or is it set at a certain macro-play difficulty( eg very hard but wont attack for 10 minutes or something)
It can cheese or be aggressive as well, but most of the strategies are aimed for long macro games. Also the medium AI maphacks, so if it thinks you have enough army to defend, it won't attack you.
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On May 24 2011 09:05 Klaas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 08:02 policymaker wrote:
thanx so much will try asap
thanx again, 1st game was amazing. i set a medium AI, but to my suprise, this bot was too good for me to handle... is there something wrong with AI or is it set at a certain macro-play difficulty( eg very hard but wont attack for 10 minutes or something) It can cheese or be aggressive as well, but most of the strategies are aimed for long macro games. Also the medium AI maphacks, so if it thinks you have enough army to defend, it won't attack you.
In a custom melee vs AI, game is always linear, eg zerg will build roach hdyra vs T I think despite of difficulty, but it doesnt get any serious till very hard. So, is the AI in this mod tweaked by Major? I mean I set opponent to medium, yet at the end of the game, he had a 3rd faster than me, his macro points were much better than me, he was at masters level 8 cushion I think but I was only diamond x12, which is fair cause thats my skill lvl atm, but I m pretty sure I could easily beat medium AI opponents in customs before! Here he had the perfect composition and good engagements(seemed like he mapahcked like u said )
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On May 24 2011 10:07 policymaker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:05 Klaas wrote:On May 24 2011 08:02 policymaker wrote:
thanx so much will try asap
thanx again, 1st game was amazing. i set a medium AI, but to my suprise, this bot was too good for me to handle... is there something wrong with AI or is it set at a certain macro-play difficulty( eg very hard but wont attack for 10 minutes or something) It can cheese or be aggressive as well, but most of the strategies are aimed for long macro games. Also the medium AI maphacks, so if it thinks you have enough army to defend, it won't attack you. In a custom melee vs AI, game is always linear, eg zerg will build roach hdyra vs T I think despite of difficulty, but it doesnt get any serious till very hard. So, is the AI in this mod tweaked by Major? I mean I set opponent to medium, yet at the end of the game, he had a 3rd faster than me, his macro points were much better than me, he was at masters level 8 cushion I think but I was only diamond x12, which is fair cause thats my skill lvl atm, but I m pretty sure I could easily beat medium AI opponents in customs before! Here he had the perfect composition and good engagements(seemed like he mapahcked like u said )
The maps are using Grean Tea AI which why you see the difference from normal games.
I saw this earlier in the thread so assume that is how it maps to difficulty
Nevermind...just read this:
+ Very Easy : It is vanilla very hard Ai
+ Easy : GT( normal vision like player)
+ Medium : GT ( full vision )
+ Hard : Same harvest rate at the player at the beginning, then slowly increase from 1 to 1.5 times in 10 minutes.
+ Very Hard : Same harvest rate at the player at the beginning, then rapidly increase from 1 to 2.0 times in 10 minutes.
+ Insane : The get double resources at the begining. Only use 1 strategy for each races but using all the units in the game.
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Russian Federation823 Posts
Thanks for releasing this on EU, i can't wait to try it out. Usually my macro is slipping after the first 2base push, so i hope this will be helpful.
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Awesome Major!
I tried it out yesterday, and did it a few times to day aswell, and I gotta say, I'm really impressed.
Specially when the map rates my macro as higher than im currently ranked, hehe
Anyways, thanks alot for this, will report if I find any issues, but haven't seen anything other than the one that requires reboot of map. Tal Darim has worked every time for me though.
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Thanks alot _Major for getting it on EU!
I can't wait to get home and try it.
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On May 24 2011 17:12 Vusi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 10:07 policymaker wrote:On May 24 2011 09:05 Klaas wrote:On May 24 2011 08:02 policymaker wrote:
thanx so much will try asap
thanx again, 1st game was amazing. i set a medium AI, but to my suprise, this bot was too good for me to handle... is there something wrong with AI or is it set at a certain macro-play difficulty( eg very hard but wont attack for 10 minutes or something) It can cheese or be aggressive as well, but most of the strategies are aimed for long macro games. Also the medium AI maphacks, so if it thinks you have enough army to defend, it won't attack you. In a custom melee vs AI, game is always linear, eg zerg will build roach hdyra vs T I think despite of difficulty, but it doesnt get any serious till very hard. So, is the AI in this mod tweaked by Major? I mean I set opponent to medium, yet at the end of the game, he had a 3rd faster than me, his macro points were much better than me, he was at masters level 8 cushion I think but I was only diamond x12, which is fair cause thats my skill lvl atm, but I m pretty sure I could easily beat medium AI opponents in customs before! Here he had the perfect composition and good engagements(seemed like he mapahcked like u said ) The maps are using Grean Tea AI which why you see the difference from normal games. I saw this earlier in the thread so assume that is how it maps to difficulty Show nested quote +
Nevermind...just read this:
+ Very Easy : It is vanilla very hard Ai
+ Easy : GT( normal vision like player)
+ Medium : GT ( full vision )
+ Hard : Same harvest rate at the player at the beginning, then slowly increase from 1 to 1.5 times in 10 minutes.
+ Very Hard : Same harvest rate at the player at the beginning, then rapidly increase from 1 to 2.0 times in 10 minutes.
+ Insane : The get double resources at the begining. Only use 1 strategy for each races but using all the units in the game.
oh that explains it, i was playing with a maphacking very hard AI, ty!
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How hard would it be to set up building checks/unit benchmarks to practice build execution totally. Like, "It's 9:30, where's your spire?" kind of things? It'd be kind of screwy against a human opponent, but against the Very Easy computer, to practice the build execution until you had it down, it'd be pretty cool.
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This is by far the best "training map" I've seen. I'm actually having games far more entertaining than most matches on the ladder ( I'm in plat. )
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Thanks for the europe version !
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Really looking forward to trying this out. However.. i have a problem downloading the two maps uploaded to EU servers. For some reason the download freezes for those two particular maps at around 90-ish. Any help?
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I've played this map over and over again and showed it to some bronze friends of mine and they have greatly improved because of this map. It gave them a new outlook on the game. They are discovering the power of macro management!!!!!!!!!
Thank you so much for this map!
Please continue making more improvements and releasing new macro or die maps to play on.
I very much appreciate these maps as I enjoy practicing my macro. I like how this map forces you to macro good with only 2 spots for the production limit. That's one of my favorite features of the map. It prevents you from fake-macroing by having 3 marauders on que for example.
Keep it up!
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
Been playing this map all day, You did a great job with the map and it's a great practice tool
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Holy shit, I might have been a bit complacent, but I got _rolled_ by Medium AI in the first game. :D
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Hi TL, I finally made the jump to the registration page to report a small problem i got on these maps
As soon as I've seen they had been uploaded on EU I've tried to play one of them but it looks like the localization still has some problem, or at least with my language (French).
![[image loading]](http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3011/macroordie.jpg)
I got the same problem with the other map ofc.
I don't know if there is an easy workaround for me, it's not "that" annoying except I just can't read anything like the rank, the objective or whatever... :D I just hear the alarm sound and have to guess what's wrong... (not that hard anyway, look those stacking minerals...)
Also on another point, the very easy AI just lost the game without gg'ing and then I've been directly thrown at the "Victory" screen without any custom stats (that i couldn't have read but that's not my point here)
Still, keep up with the good work and thanks for a mod who looks awesome
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This is a very useful practice tool, though also quite humbling. I often lose to the medium ai, that only seems to get more difficult as the game progresses. When I give up the 'gg' I'm either silver or gold while the AI is master or grand master. Pretty severe for a 'medium' ai.
Guess I should try easy ai and see how that goes.
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On May 25 2011 06:35 Razhil wrote:Hi TL, I finally made the jump to the registration page to report a small problem i got on these maps As soon as I've seen they had been uploaded on EU I've tried to play one of them but it looks like the localization still has some problem, or at least with my language (French). I got the same problem with the other map ofc. I don't know if there is an easy workaround for me, it's not "that" annoying except I just can't read anything like the rank, the objective or whatever... :D I just hear the alarm sound and have to guess what's wrong... (not that hard anyway, look those stacking minerals...) Also on another point, the very easy AI just lost the game without gg'ing and then I've been directly thrown at the "Victory" screen without any custom stats (that i couldn't have read but that's not my point here) Still, keep up with the good work and thanks for a mod who looks awesome
Thanks for reporting this Razhil. I don't have an EU client so I can't test this myself. Do any EU map makers know what I can do to fix this?
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On May 25 2011 10:54 bruteMax wrote:This is a very useful practice tool, though also quite humbling. I often lose to the medium ai, that only seems to get more difficult as the game progresses. When I give up the 'gg' I'm either silver or gold while the AI is master or grand master. Pretty severe for a 'medium' ai. Guess I should try easy ai and see how that goes.
You can't sit back and let the other guy macro in a bubble, especially if they are a computer. You have to be aggressive with them. Don't let them expand when they want to. Harass them to supply block them, slow worker production, or just keep their army from getting too large.
Your objective is to maximize your production and economic capabilities, AND to keep your opponent from doing the same.
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Terminus RE map please? That'd be the ultimate test of macro imo.
Sick map, gj.
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I played 10+ games yesterday, lots of fun and lots of thinking "wow I need to improve". Haven't dared trying the medium AI yet.
Only bug I saw was on [Xel'Naga Caverns] where the Zerg AI bugged out at some point.
On EU btw.
I will play more today.
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thanks for uploading it to EU.
great map
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Another happy EU customer here.
Absolutely fantastic map for training.
Now I just need to get to the point where I can bring the fight to the AI instead of mainly fighting the nuke clock.
And if you have the time to expand this to more maps, it would be fantastic.
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Tried this out today and i must say it was really fun, going to help me so much!
Big thanks for making it available in EU aswell
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First time I tried this I was constantly focusing on my macro, not even thinking about battles or anything, just constantly making sure i kept my resources low and the supply block away. Later on when I started looking more at my army the nuke countdown kept popping up, forcing me to spend more time on my macro. Really like the way you're forced to not forget your macro lategame, something I definitely need help with.
Thanks a lot for uploading this to EU servers, I've been looking out for this mod quite a bit.
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This is exactly the kind of map I am looking for. Unfortunately, it does not work quite as well as I expected it to.
I happen to have the same problem as Razhil does, and I happen to share his game language.
If no one else experiences this, it's probably a french-only issue.
I'd love to look into it, but I have no knowledge of the map editor...
Is there anyone using french as game language or having a french-based OS who can play on this map without any trouble ?
Edit : this problem has been met on other maps :
US client saves all the dependencies and triggers in different folder inside the map, when EU uploader opens the map with his editor everything gets messed up because EU galaxy editor can't find the necessary data, the only way to fix it was to manually edit all the text triggers.
->http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1849928665
The overview of the mod makes it look like there is 99 text things, but when I open the text manager, there's nothing :s
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On May 25 2011 06:35 Razhil wrote:Hi TL, I finally made the jump to the registration page to report a small problem i got on these maps As soon as I've seen they had been uploaded on EU I've tried to play one of them but it looks like the localization still has some problem, or at least with my language (French). I got the same problem with the other map ofc. I don't know if there is an easy workaround for me, it's not "that" annoying except I just can't read anything like the rank, the objective or whatever... :D I just hear the alarm sound and have to guess what's wrong... (not that hard anyway, look those stacking minerals...) Also on another point, the very easy AI just lost the game without gg'ing and then I've been directly thrown at the "Victory" screen without any custom stats (that i couldn't have read but that's not my point here) Still, keep up with the good work and thanks for a mod who looks awesome
Same problem here, I believe the problem may be linked to the fact that the program is trying to find the text entry corresponding to the French langage...
I'm a sad, sad panda .
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On May 26 2011 02:46 Ahelvin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 06:35 Razhil wrote:Hi TL, I finally made the jump to the registration page to report a small problem i got on these maps As soon as I've seen they had been uploaded on EU I've tried to play one of them but it looks like the localization still has some problem, or at least with my language (French). I got the same problem with the other map ofc. I don't know if there is an easy workaround for me, it's not "that" annoying except I just can't read anything like the rank, the objective or whatever... :D I just hear the alarm sound and have to guess what's wrong... (not that hard anyway, look those stacking minerals...) Also on another point, the very easy AI just lost the game without gg'ing and then I've been directly thrown at the "Victory" screen without any custom stats (that i couldn't have read but that's not my point here) Still, keep up with the good work and thanks for a mod who looks awesome Same problem here, I believe the problem may be linked to the fact that the program is trying to find the text entry corresponding to the French langage... I'm a sad, sad panda .
Just wanted to add that the same Problem happen in the german version too. I guess it's on every non-english client.
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They have to copy english texts to other locals or ask someone to translate. And btw, you should play in english it's so much fun :p (don't know for german, but french client is scary).
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Feedback: I would really enjoy a feature that allows the game to be restarted so that whether you lost, won, or simply made a mistake you could restart the match and jump right into another one without having to open the "create a game" sequence as well as load the map all over again.
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Same problem here. I hear the voice in french explaining the goals, but the text doesn't work (quite strange...). If there is a text file to be translated somewhere, I'm ok to do it and share it.
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I macro like a silver player maybe I need to stop going for a cc :/
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Hey guys,
I think I have found a way to fix the localization issues with non English-GB copies of the game. We'll try to get a version uploaded tomorrow.
On May 26 2011 06:41 d(O.o)a wrote:I macro like a silver player maybe I need to stop going for a cc :/
Watch your replay. You may actually play decent with a CC, but the may hold you back from gold status because you don't use the energy on both CCs efficiently, or because you supply block yourself more often since you're producing twice as many workers (hopefully).
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On May 26 2011 07:07 _Major wrote:Hey guys, I think I have found a way to fix the localization issues with non English-GB copies of the game. We'll try to get a version uploaded tomorrow. Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 06:41 d(O.o)a wrote:I macro like a silver player maybe I need to stop going for a cc :/ Watch your replay. You may actually play decent with a CC, but the may hold you back from gold status because you don't use the energy on both CCs efficiently, or because you supply block yourself more often since you're producing twice as many workers (hopefully).
No I mean it always tries to nuke me if I expand before like 30 supply so I have to do 2-3rax builds oh and my cc almost never goes above 55 energy I just end up losing to the computer shortly after placing cc because it does 1-base builds 90% of the time, so after the nuke my macro goes down, games where I go 2-3rax end before I can get above diamond
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My only problem with this map is that "very hard" is just insanely much harder then just "hard", so I either get "freewins" or get completely rolled. I guess I just need more practice or something, but the increased resource gathering just gets more and more noticeable. I guess a pure turtle style or ai abuse could do it fairly well, but playing straight up expansion game is just insanely hard.
Then again a proper challenge from AI is very rare, so I should consider myself happy
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On May 26 2011 07:51 d(O.o)a wrote:No I mean it always tries to nuke me if I expand before like 30 supply so I have to do 2-3rax builds oh and my cc almost never goes above 55 energy I just end up losing to the computer shortly after placing cc because it does 1-base builds 90% of the time, so after the nuke my macro goes down, games where I go 2-3rax end before I can get above diamond
You should be able to expand safely before 30 supply. The first couple of seconds are just a warning that if you don't spend your resources soon then a nuke will go off. If you take too long you may get bumped from silver to bronze, but this means very little that early in the game.
Also, if the AI isn't helping you practice, feel free to try and find a human partner here.
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On May 26 2011 09:55 _Major wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 07:51 d(O.o)a wrote:No I mean it always tries to nuke me if I expand before like 30 supply so I have to do 2-3rax builds oh and my cc almost never goes above 55 energy I just end up losing to the computer shortly after placing cc because it does 1-base builds 90% of the time, so after the nuke my macro goes down, games where I go 2-3rax end before I can get above diamond You should be able to expand safely before 30 supply. The first couple of seconds are just a warning that if you don't spend your resources soon then a nuke will go off. If you take too long you may get bumped from silver to bronze, but this means very little that early in the game. Also, if the AI isn't helping you practice, feel free to try and find a human partner here.
I'm not trying to say anything bad about the map, I am LOVING it, just saying it's a little annoying to have that nuke threaten when I am putting down an early CC, although I am pretty used to it after a few (dozen) more games. Very very very enjoyable map and I feel I'm improving my macro already, hoping to recover some of my lost skill ^.^
Oh also I wish I could add the max of 2 units queued to actual games, I have a bad habit of habitually pressing my infrastructure hotkeys and making units only to realize I already have some making.
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is there anyway for this map to appear in the "versus AI" list so i don't have to deal with delay?? would REALLY appreciate it.
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On May 27 2011 06:27 Malstriks wrote:
is there anyway for this map to appear in the "versus AI" list so i don't have to deal with delay?? would REALLY appreciate it.
This map is for training, isn't it? if you're going to be playing with delay in a real game, you should train with delay, imo.
I'm not sure, but isn't the "vs ai" list only for blizz maps?
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I got it to appear in Single Player / vs AI map list by creating one custom game and quitting immediately after it started.
I still can't get it to appear in Play Offline list though (while some other custom maps like yabot do appear).
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On May 27 2011 06:35 Varpulis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 06:27 Malstriks wrote:
is there anyway for this map to appear in the "versus AI" list so i don't have to deal with delay?? would REALLY appreciate it. This map is for training, isn't it? if you're going to be playing with delay in a real game, you should train with delay, imo. I'm not sure, but isn't the "vs ai" list only for blizz maps?
i would normally agree with you except im in a hotel with terrible ping (half second-1 second delay)
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I love this map so much. Got my Zerg macro to Grandmaster level for a little bit, averaging out at the Master level. Unfortunately, my Terran and Protoss macro seems to be around Silver/Gold level.
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I think the only "bug" I've seen is that on Xel'naga a Terran AI will take out the rocks at my gold expand.
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About AI : would it be possible to choose an easier AI to be able to focus on macro with standard BO ?
For example, with "very easy" (Green Tea ?) zerg AI, on Xel'naga, it always goes on 7 roach rush, which is a really early attack, and which forces an early forge (at least at my silver level) :
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-211204.jpg)
I would prefer to train to do a "3-gate sentry expand" rather than to defend this early push. More over, it looks like the demo replays have not been done with this AI (I'm talking about (PvAI - Master League) Inori teaches you how to Dougie (I mean 3 Gate/FE)).
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Tried to play it today on EU with a non-english client.. still the same problem (text replaced by path to text).
was http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1849928665 helpful ? :s
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On May 28 2011 01:14 Tristan107 wrote:About AI : would it be possible to choose an easier AI to be able to focus on macro with standard BO ? For example, with "very easy" (Green Tea ?) zerg AI, on Xel'naga, it always goes on 7 roach rush, which is a really early attack, and which forces an early forge (at least at my silver level) : I would prefer to train to do a "3-gate sentry expand" rather than to defend this early push. More over, it looks like the demo replays have not been done with this AI (I'm talking about (PvAI - Master League) Inori teaches you how to Dougie (I mean 3 Gate/FE)).
I'm pretty sure Inori was playing against the Medium AI. I suggest that you play against Easy or Medium over Very Easy. If you find that you are getting overpowered by them switch the speed to fast or something slower. This is not a dig; this is a viable way to train. It allows you to have more reaction time and will get you up to speed a lot better than you think. Also, watch your replays to see where the AI put there money and what you did/didn't do to counter that.
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On May 28 2011 01:24 _Major wrote:
I'm pretty sure Inori was playing against the Medium AI.
Sure, but I think it was the normal Medium AI, not the Green Tea medium AI.
On May 28 2011 01:24 _Major wrote:
I suggest that you play against Easy or Medium over Very Easy. If you find that you are getting overpowered by them switch the speed to fast or something slower. This is not a dig; this is a viable way to train. It allows you to have more reaction time and will get you up to speed a lot better than you think. Also, watch your replays to see where the AI put there money and what you did/didn't do to counter that.
Ok, why not, thanks for advice.
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On May 28 2011 01:35 Tristan107 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 01:24 _Major wrote:
I'm pretty sure Inori was playing against the Medium AI. Sure, but I think it was the normal Medium AI, not the Green Tea medium AI. Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 01:24 _Major wrote:
I suggest that you play against Easy or Medium over Very Easy. If you find that you are getting overpowered by them switch the speed to fast or something slower. This is not a dig; this is a viable way to train. It allows you to have more reaction time and will get you up to speed a lot better than you think. Also, watch your replays to see where the AI put there money and what you did/didn't do to counter that.
Ok, why not, thanks for advice.
BTW, thank you for posting the replay. That is very helpful. The Very Easy Zerg AI is broken right now. It doesn't expand; it just masses units. I'm not sure when this will get fixed, as it's not my code.
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wow this looks interesting. Sorry if i missed it, but is this on eu yet
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On May 28 2011 05:44 ThatGuy89 wrote:
wow this looks interesting. Sorry if i missed it, but is this on eu yet
Yes it is.
@ EU players with Non-English clients, please try out Xel'Naga now.
I think I fixed it. We confirmed with DE locales, but need everyone else to let us know if it works for them. If the fix is solid, I'll send more maps up for the weekend.
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On May 28 2011 04:40 _Major wrote:
BTW, thank you for posting the replay. That is very helpful. The Very Easy Zerg AI is broken right now. It doesn't expand; it just masses units.
Well, maybe that's why this AI is called "very easy", don't u think so ? 
And the "easy" one expand only one time, and then create a third inbase hatchery. I don't find it broken... The standard AI also limit expands in the easy levels...
On May 28 2011 06:16 _Major wrote:
@ EU players with Non-English clients, please try out Xel'Naga now.
I think I fixed it. We confirmed with DE locales, but need everyone else to let us know if it works for them. If the fix is solid, I'll send more maps up for the weekend.
France here, the new Xel'Naga map works great !
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A few stats about the so called "easy" zerg AI :
* At 9 minutes, it has 50 drones,
* a few minutes later, it has 4 bases, including gold (which looks a better situation than the demo game, where the "very hard" AI had only a 4th distant hatch).
* It does muta harass on main, and simultaneously attacks the natural with speedlings/banelings/roaches
* It has "diamond" level in the final panel.
* It goes up to more than 200 APM (in the end of the game).
Conclusion : for a silver player, it's quite too much, even in "normal" mode... Even with a fine macro with no nuke, it requires a very high micro, it's too bad for a macro training map.
Replay : http://drop.sc/11495
By the way, I've found a real bug : I've tried to play against it in "normal" and even "slow" game speed, but on this map, the game speed never changes, it's always "fastest" what ever you choose.
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On May 28 2011 17:27 Tristan107 wrote:
France here, the new Xel'Naga map works great !
I concur.
Thank you very much for this map.
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I have 2 questions, I won't call them problems, but. In the last game ( and a couple other times before ) I've played, the easy AI was stalling, rebuilding things like refineries where there was no cc and things like, gg'ing only after I almost killed every thing. It sometimes ggs when it should but kinda drags on the game in other situations... I'm guessing it's a problem with the AI script and not the map?
And second, how accurate is the rating if I play on easy? In the replay I've posted it said I was in GM right until the end, dropping the rating to master in the score window ( for some reason i didn't really get ? ). Only problem is that I'm in Gold...
Replay: http://drop.sc/11525
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On May 28 2011 18:39 Tristan107 wrote:A few stats about the so called "easy" zerg AI : * At 9 minutes, it has 50 drones, * a few minutes later, it has 4 bases, including gold (which looks a better situation than the demo game, where the "very hard" AI had only a 4th distant hatch). * It does muta harass on main, and simultaneously attacks the natural with speedlings/banelings/roaches * It has "diamond" level in the final panel. * It goes up to more than 200 APM (in the end of the game). Conclusion : for a silver player, it's quite too much, even in "normal" mode... Even with a fine macro with no nuke, it requires a very high micro, it's too bad for a macro training map. Replay : http://drop.sc/11495By the way, I've found a real bug : I've tried to play against it in "normal" and even "slow" game speed, but on this map, the game speed never changes, it's always "fastest" what ever you choose.
That's strange, i played against medium right now... and it's kinda stupid
PvZ
i fast expanded at 16 or so, he took his expo at 25ish
pretty standart game, zerg takes 3rd before me and goes roach hydra
but! the AI never took the 4th, we had a lot of army trade offs and once i had the gold as my 4th it got easier and easier and easier, because he stoped expanding and run dry
btw i went pure zealot archon just to test and it was really easy for me... maybe it's the ai's fault?
On May 29 2011 04:15 VaultDweller wrote:And second, how accurate is the rating if I play on easy? In the replay I've posted it said I was in GM right until the end, dropping the rating to master in the score window ( for some reason i didn't really get ? ). Only problem is that I'm in Gold... Replay: http://drop.sc/11525
it just evaluates your macro
supplyblocks and mineral spending
it however doesn't rate your buildorders, micro or! the amount of macro, that means how much you expand, build workers or your mineral income
so even if it would say grandmaster, then your macro could be at bronze level, cause it's not hard to spend your money with only 6 scv's
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On May 29 2011 07:58 Dreyven wrote:
That's strange, i played against medium right now... and it's kinda stupid
PvZ
i fast expanded at 16 or so, he took his expo at 25ish
pretty standart game, zerg takes 3rd before me and goes roach hydra
but! the AI never took the 4th, we had a lot of army trade offs and once i had the gold as my 4th it got easier and easier and easier, because he stoped expanding and run dry
btw i went pure zealot archon just to test and it was really easy for me... maybe it's the ai's fault?
It would be really helpful for me if you could upload a replay (http://drop.sc/, http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php, http://www.sc2replayed.com/ or http://replays.wgpower.net/)
And also a replay versus the "easy" AI (which is maybe harder than the "medium" one...).
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Any chance of this going up on SEA?
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On May 28 2011 18:39 Tristan107 wrote:
A few stats about the so called "easy" zerg AI :
* At 9 minutes, it has 50 drones,
* a few minutes later, it has 4 bases, including gold (which looks a better situation than the demo game, where the "very hard" AI had only a 4th distant hatch).
* It does muta harass on main, and simultaneously attacks the natural with speedlings/banelings/roaches
* It has "diamond" level in the final panel.
* It goes up to more than 200 APM (in the end of the game).
Conclusion : for a silver player, it's quite too much, even in "normal" mode... Even with a fine macro with no nuke, it requires a very high micro, it's too bad for a macro training map.
Agree with this post. I find my 1v1 games worse off build order wise even though I've learned to spend money easier. The AI has insane micro that a gold toss like me struggles to work against, let alone care about my macro =/
Nice training map though.
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On May 29 2011 15:28 Tristan107 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2011 07:58 Dreyven wrote:
That's strange, i played against medium right now... and it's kinda stupid
PvZ
i fast expanded at 16 or so, he took his expo at 25ish
pretty standart game, zerg takes 3rd before me and goes roach hydra
but! the AI never took the 4th, we had a lot of army trade offs and once i had the gold as my 4th it got easier and easier and easier, because he stoped expanding and run dry
btw i went pure zealot archon just to test and it was really easy for me... maybe it's the ai's fault?
It would be really helpful for me if you could upload a replay (http://drop.sc/, http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php, http://www.sc2replayed.com/ or http://replays.wgpower.net/)And also a replay versus the "easy" AI (which is maybe harder than the "medium" one...).
here you go, messing around, playing bad and crushing the medium AI still with ease
i am gold league btw
http://drop.sc/11576
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Please upload on SEA Mate?
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On May 29 2011 20:57 Dreyven wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2011 15:28 Tristan107 wrote:On May 29 2011 07:58 Dreyven wrote:
That's strange, i played against medium right now... and it's kinda stupid
PvZ
i fast expanded at 16 or so, he took his expo at 25ish
pretty standart game, zerg takes 3rd before me and goes roach hydra
but! the AI never took the 4th, we had a lot of army trade offs and once i had the gold as my 4th it got easier and easier and easier, because he stoped expanding and run dry
btw i went pure zealot archon just to test and it was really easy for me... maybe it's the ai's fault?
It would be really helpful for me if you could upload a replay (http://drop.sc/, http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php, http://www.sc2replayed.com/ or http://replays.wgpower.net/)And also a replay versus the "easy" AI (which is maybe harder than the "medium" one...). here you go, messing around, playing bad and crushing the medium AI still with ease i am gold league btw http://drop.sc/11576
Ok, thanks for trying this. Zealot/Archon is a nice fun mix
Now you can see the "medium" AI has only 24 drones at 9:00. Could you try to do the same FFE against an "easy" AI (which has 50 drones at 9:00) ? Or better, a 3-gate sentry expand ? (which is the standard BO I would like to train to)
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Hello, I've been playing MoD on EU, since it was added by Vusi. I have noticed a couple of things that just don't seem to feel right. So, my first attempt on the map, was on medium (My mistake) I usualy play on medium/hard. I am not a great player. So I got slaughtered..
So, I changed to Very Easy, I've won a couple of games. My macro has improved, But for the most part, if I go against Zerg or Terran I usualy get 7 roached or 3 rax'd. I haven't played much. And my friend is teaching me the basics.
To be honest, the difficulty / Artificial player level is.. Temperamental, I mean my last game - Look below...
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UvRGH.jpg) - Hard to see but that says Grandmaster x6.
Now I don't know how the system works, and won't pretend to understand. But at the lowest level of difficulty, suffering mass Archon / HT armies, with carrier back up, definitely isn't the easiest I could imagine.
I know it's getting better the hard way. And my Macro has improved. But at any point in the game I can be annihilated. It might just be me, but slightly fairer odds, at a low level of play, for people like me who like the macro nuke to keep us in check but want to expand into mid-late game play, as in bronze league it's just cheese..
I guess my wall of text is just asking, if you could have one level, that doesn't have a learning curve that'd give you vertigo. So people like me who know the basics, and that's about it.. Can use this tool more efficiently.
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the thing is, his macro is grandmaster
BUT like i said before, it just tracks if you spend the ressources and if you get supplyblocked
it however doesn't track if you're constantly making workers and expanding at the right times
that means i, myself, would be able to get grandmaster x1 macro by just staying on 6 probes
imagine how easy it would be for me to follow the rules
the better your income gets, the harder it will be to get a good rank in this map
post the replay, it would be interesting to see how good the macro of the ai really is so i can compare it to medium, easy, and the other ones
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The only problem is that you can't survive the AI until x1 with 6 probes, so I'm thinking that if you're winning with 4 bases, ~75 probes and it still rates you in GM you must be doing smth right...
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It's the way it works. If you have below x amount of resources times y amount of supply. You go up it's simple, in that respect.
http://replayfu.com/r/S6fKJq - As I said I'm not very good. And someone who knows how to play better could probably counter. I'm still learning the game, so I just die. - But then someone who knows the game, probably won't be playing on Very Easy. It's just a question to Major, that can it be less aggressive, smart and well.. Hard on Very Easy.
Bronze 19 x is resource below 19 * supply count (made) - Or something, for those who didn't use the tool tips.
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Thank you so much for publishing it on EU.
After 3-4 times playing it vs AI my macro noticeably improved already (I'm Bronze so there's lotsa space for growth, but it's nice feeling it tapped)
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i dont know if somebody mentioned this but the (Macro or die) Xel naga
is on Fast not on faster and you can not change it
or is it just a display feature and the game is on faster
Thank you for publishing this on the EU Server.
Just some wishes or thoughts from me.
I would wish that i can tell the ai to
4gate,dt rush,void rush,1/2base colossus,6pool,1/2base roach rush,1/2base baneling bust,cloak banshee,hellion drop,2rax,3rax,6rax,thor rush me ^^
macro without pressure is easy
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Hi guys,
Thanks for the feedback.
First things first...I'm so close to having a rematch option in I can taste it. I had to reach out to some other mapmakers for help. My solution currently works for everyone but Zerg - the stupid creep keeps messing up the mineral resets (if you know how to solve this pm me).
Thanks for finding the game speed bug. I had set the game to be on slowest before everyone pressed the ready button and then hardcoded it to go back to fastest instead of the chosen game speed. I will fix this.
As far as difficulty goes...the Easy AI is aggressive; it's not really hard. Once it starts cheating (@ medium) it becomes hard. The Very Easy is Blizzard's Very Hard AI. It cheats, it doesn't change up it's strategy, and it's broken. I don't recommend using this; jump straight to easy.
I think some of the hurdles that are causing trouble with the easy AI can't be covered in this trainer. I'll try to address the most important:
1) Macro means attending to all of the mechanics that allow you to produce and increase your army's size and value (on paper). Do not mistake this for Economy above all else, which is just a means to an end when suitable.
2) If you don't scout or pressure your opponent they will make you pay for those blunders as they should. This is how the ladder works; it's also the reason I chose to use Green Tea. The objective of the trainer is not to learn how to sit back and become a macro god and hope the other guy isn't; it's to help you become aware of when your macro is slipping, why it's slipping, and to understand when you have the economic advantage or don't have it.
2a) Frank Lopez once said, "Never underestimate the other guy's greed"; take his advice. Zerg can be the greediest race in the game. [We] can stop all army production and just devote all larvae to harvesters, if you let us -- that's 12 drones and 2 overlords every 45 seconds (2hatch/2queen).
3) The AI is just a substitute; play against a real player whenever you can. I put a lot of work into making this a multiplayer map for that reason. The AI will always be handicapped by what Blizzard exposes to scripters and our ability to program it.
Finally, I humbly post my Toss vs Easy AI 3 gate expand as proof that you don't need to be amazing or cheese to beat the AI.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ACWfF.png)
Yes, I know it's pitiful. I'm still learning to play Protoss. The AI falls because I make the proper strategic decisions based off of seeing their opening, seeing what they sent to kill me, and applying some pressure so that they have to work really hard if they want to try and get that 3rd base up. Make them fight and you'll see that their Macro level doesn't stay that high either.
http://drop.sc/11623
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Damn i typed "gg" when he said that he have me on black list and it counted as loss for me lol
diamond x12 after first game vs medium
nice map i gonna play some more
@edit
oh and it didnt check the dont get supply blocked for more than 12s when I was 10/10 and pylon was ending(it was like 1-2s supply block) what kind of bug is this!
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I use this map to warm up and try things, i just love it, the green tea AI and low queu for terran production is awesome. plz do publish more maps in EU, this is getting great.
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Thank's for that Major. This is a great tool! I shall try easy, as I said I'm only just learning, and having the minerals and supply is basically the building blocks to move up in the SC2 world, as far as I see.
I've been taking what I've learned, on how to stop being nuked into normal AI and 1v1 Bronze. I can now beat hard AI every time, and won 4 out of 5 games online last night, got a little achievement for 3 in a row.
I didn't say thank you in my other posts, this made me feel a little ungrateful, I asked a lot with out saying how great this is. I really do love it. I'll try on easy
Thank's again!
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Once it starts cheating (@ medium) it becomes hard.
And here I was wondering why Easy felt too easy and Medium felt bloody impossible.
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Hi,is there an option to have alerts (Larva inject/ChronoBoost expired/Mule) on this map?As zerg its pretty hard for me to have perfect timing on injects without this .
Anyway,this map is pretty nice against a player,but i think the AI is not that great (Attacking almost everytime,with small pack of units).playing Zerg on this map is pretty much harder than the other races (Vs AI) because of that.
But great job anyway .
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On May 31 2011 02:08 Maeh wrote:Hi,is there an option to have alerts (Larva inject/ChronoBoost expired/Mule) on this map?As zerg its pretty hard for me to have perfect timing on injects without this . Anyway,this map is pretty nice against a player,but i think the AI is not that great (Attacking almost everytime,with small pack of units).playing Zerg on this map is pretty much harder than the other races (Vs AI) because of that. But great job anyway .
if u select medium AI, thats very hard blizzard AI maphacking. which means if it thinks it can kill u, it will attack. in any case its supposed to play like a real quickmatch
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Great map! Can you please update the Green Tea AI version on them, since 0.84 is already out?
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This is a great tool. I keep losing to the Easy AI, but at least I can see progress in my ability to macro while doing other things.
My main issue is that the GT Terran AI likes to blow up the rocks at my gold expo. Not a big deal, more of a GT issue.
Again great job _Major!
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great map and very challenging to me
some issues I faced so far:
- AI attacks my gold rocks on Xel-Naga (very funny if zerg crushes my rocks with banes :D)
- AI scouting probe is stuck if I have a unit on hold on top of my ramp (it moves forward and back)
but again, very well done
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One workaround I can think of for the reset button (vs AI) is to enable the map to be loaded up in single player. Then you can just save it once, and once that it done the "Restart" button appears.
Other than that, haven't noticed any problems with it yet, and thanks very much for the excellent work ^^ Very much appreciater _Major
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On June 03 2011 01:52 MoonfireSpam wrote:
One workaround I can think of for the reset button (vs AI) is to enable the map to be loaded up in single player. Then you can just save it once, and once that it done the "Restart" button appears.
Other than that, haven't noticed any problems with it yet, and thanks very much for the excellent work ^^ Very much appreciater _Major
Thank you for the suggestion.
When I find time I'm going to search through Green Tea and write some clear/init functions for them. If they aren't able to fix themselves. The restart option would only work for single player, which rules out Team practice, observors, and FFAs. I'd rather not hack a solution in for one and not support the others.
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Thanks for getting this on EU! It's the only custom map I play these days.
Had a hilarious moment earlier, figured I'd do some serious macro training, load this up, prepare to macro HARD against the zerg AI.
He 12 drone rushes me.
Almost killed me to since I was laughing so much. =P
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i dislike when i expand at less than 40 supply and it counts as my bad macro
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On June 05 2011 02:16 SMMN wrote:
i dislike when i expand at less than 40 supply and it counts as my bad macro
Is the expansion going down right when you hit 400 (or 300 if youre zerg) minerals or are you sending it out then waiting a bit? The game I played I expanded at 22 supply with no "bad macro" issues.
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Thanks for releasing it on Europe. It's really fun and helps me a lot.
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On June 05 2011 15:04 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2011 02:16 SMMN wrote:
i dislike when i expand at less than 40 supply and it counts as my bad macro Is the expansion going down right when you hit 400 (or 300 if youre zerg) minerals or are you sending it out then waiting a bit? The game I played I expanded at 22 supply with no "bad macro" issues.
im protoss and i put it right at 400 minerals, i guess my timing always hit "macro checker"
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It'd be funny if you were getting dropped by Terran and purposefully let a nuke drop to take care of it instead of sending troops back. :D
That being said, holy wow, this is a cool idea. DLing it and playing it as soon as I get home.
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thank you OP. this custom map is awesome
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I have a suggestion though:
Get rid of the mouse buttons to produce buildings and units etc so that the player MUST use the hotkeys
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I have a question about the multiplier. My opponent was a x10 Master CPU, it says I am a x14 Platinum level Zerg.
What does the x14 mean?
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I like this mod. I have an idea though: When the game is starting, instead of having the AI randomly choose a build order, enable the ability for the player to choose which BO the AI uses. I play protoss, and when I pvp against it, i just destroy it with 4 gate every time because it is doing some FE build thats meant for terran or whatever. Let me select a BO like 3 gate robo with sentries ff the ramp, or defensive 4 gate, or cannon rush. Also have the option for random BO.
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I like the concept of this map,it will really help lower league players to train their macro which i think that they will not be so good at.
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Also if I am playing as zerg, make the AI wall off vs me like a normal player would
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i just lost to drone rush from medium ai :D
i really didnt except something like that
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would love the option to rematch
Button is already there
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Hey guys,
I have been working on an updated version of the maps which will at the very least include Player vs Player rematching and game history tracking tournament style. I also will be trying to release 8-9 maps on NA, EU, LAT, and SEA with that update.
The biggest problem right now has been that the NBA Finals are on and E3 got me playing FIFA again. So, I've been a bit distracted. After Tuesday, I should be back on the horse.
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This really helped my macro, thanks!
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This really helped my macro, and also me extremely paranoid of getting my mineral line nuked. LOL.
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_Major:
You are allowed to have fun. Looking forward to the update and more maps on EU.
Thanks for the maps once again.
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Great map!
I always play one game of Macro or Die, before starting all the laddering for the day.
It helps warming up.
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So, where is the update?
Can't wait anymore
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this is really really cool! plus i got a huge ego boost when it labeled me as Master, when im actually gold league so much more cool trying of BOs with this. somehow keeps everything... tight.
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Thanks for these great maps. I'm playing them alot.
But is it just me or is the computer stronger than the usual computer opponent?
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On June 19 2011 17:52 Bahamamama wrote:
Thanks for these great maps. I'm playing them alot.
But is it just me or is the computer stronger than the usual computer opponent?
Macro or die maps use the green tea ai which is much better than the blizzard one ;-)
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Noticed that the "rematch" button is greyed out.when me or a friend GG out of it. atleast on the EU servers
Other then that a great Mod that im using daily. im just a shitty Silver but this is going to help my macro gaming alot.
Keep up the good work mate
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is metalopolis coming on EU soon?
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Nice to see people finding out that the GT AI on 'medium' plays at platinum level in many respects in terms of two and three base games.
Of course it can fall to cheese, and it does not drop, and responds badly to repeated harass with drop ships. But if you don't "take advantage" it will probably have the same or bigger army than you at almost any point in time. Meaning you have to have better positioning to survive.
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Any updates in the pipe for this? More maps and/or a rematch feature would rock!
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The macro I can keep up with but this AI is brutal. I'm in silver and have diamond level macro apparently...but I can't beat this AI on medium.
Fantastic map, it really motivates me to get better.
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You might want to think about upgrading to the newest Green Tea AI. P has made some big big improvements in the last couple of months. Other than that…the map concept sounds ridiculously awesome. I’m dying to try it out.
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So i tried this out wanting to see what it rated my macro and the ai 12 drone rushed me and the game said I was platinum level Q.Q
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some flaws in the map for real sc2 training but if you're smart it's easy to hit grand master level. fun map, thanks!
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Macro or die maps lag a lot for me
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Played a few games against the AI and I must say, it plays WAY better than the Blizzard computers. I don´t know how you did it, but its amazing that you could actually practise a real macro match with such a good virtual opponent (atleast for me, i´m just a measily plat terran that kinda likes to play against computers).
I´ve recommended the map to a few friends of mine as well and recieved only positive feedback. Keep it up! Pls release more of those!
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Does the .82 Green Tea AI get extra minerals on modes other than insane?
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Nice map. Glad its now in EU.
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gonna try this out first thing in the morning when mlg is over dunno anything really, yet, but it would be really cool if the max resources lvl would be adjusted according to your current income/ currnet time in game if it isn't already.
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Wow that was really fun. I got gold rank, albeit as protoss. I guess I need to work on my macro. :D
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I can't seem to find the 1.4 maps on EU, am I alone here or no?
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Sadly I think there hasn't been any updates to the EU maps for a long time. I only see 2 of them there.
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I got placed in gold but I am masters on NA :S
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really enjoying these maps. but still no update for EU ;( and YAY for a way better AI
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Great maps! This has definitely helped me practice in a fun way! I can't wait to see the 3v3 map come to US!
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Please make it so that you will not get nuked at 199/200 supply as protoss. Most of our units cost certain things. I think you should put the cap not at 200/200, but possibly 190-195.
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Does anyone know a way to play with these trainer map's using the Starter Edition of SC2? I tried looking through the SC2 directory for a map's folder to put in the custom trainer map's i have downloaded, but i didn't find one. These look really fun to play, If anyone know's a way or just know's it's not possible in any way, give me a shout.
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Can you add a restart button / command for this custom map? In the YABOT custom maps you can type "-r" in chat and it kills all units and buildings and restarts the game with just the main + the initial workers. Not sure if the green tea AI will allow this, but it will be really nice because I often screw up and want to restart but having to quit and reload the map again is quite cumbersome to do each time. Thanks!
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hi Major,
is it possible that here will be an update?
And is it possible to combine ur Map with the KOTH map?
greetz Bird
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As cool as this mod sounds, it does not serve my purposes... I am looking for a challenging AI map that allows for customized unit dependencies.... so far, all of these maps appear to be locked (which makes sense, it prevents leaderboard tampering) but i was wondering if you could release either
A) requested maps as unlocked (with leaderboard disabled) and or
B) release some form of package that would allow other uses to modify your maps without impacting the leaderboard.
That would be cool, since i don't only care about what ladder i might be in or other silly shit...
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Is it just me or isn't there an update on EU server? I just can find v0.2 and it's quite buggy, only the creator of the game sees his macro level properly, the other one only sees some random symbols :/
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This map keeps kicking my butt
Macro is gold-platinum level (that's my ladder rank too now, though on my old account from summer I was low plat) usually, but I haven't won once, lol. Doing some kind of crappy fast expand each game.
(going to play some games, will upload replays soon)
EDIT: Yay, at least I can beat it on easy! (I've been trying very hard and hard mostly lmao)
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Macro is master on average with some chunks in Grand master.
I am just a silver player so I wish this was representative but it isnt
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Huh...I tried this map for the first time and reached Gold (x14) (lol), before being rolled over by a battlecruiser push of the AI. What the hell, this thing has double my income, how am I supposed to go in the late game if he's battlecruiser rushing me, while taking his third and while a bigger bio force than what you would have when you actually go bio after command center (which he did....but he also battlercruiser rushed) comes at my ramp with +1 ready?
No macro warning whatsoever though, doesn't seem to be the challenge for me, I just can't match the amount of shit he's producing, and I was fucking trying hard :D
And actually at the end of the game, he had litterally triple my income with the same amount of workers.
Macro is master on average with some chunks in Grand master.
Good thing you survived long enough to achieve that
I added a Very Hard AI to the game. What is the standard way to play this map against the AI? Is it like against the Insane AI and you must use gimmicks to keep the AI's workers busy while you're building carriers or something?
Edit: Nvm, the GT AI is just cheating like crazy at this level.
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I'm a plat player and had no problem getting to Master *9
This thing doesn't seem too difficult
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This mod is actually going to be pretty helpful, but sometimes though, it would downright piss players off, for example if a toss messes up and gets supply blocked, and then their opponent attacks, the toss can't reinforce his/her army since they're supply blocked, but they can defend with their workers. But then the nuke timer hits 0, all of the toss's workers gets nuked and he loses the game. It would be hilarious though.
Is this mod out on SEA, by any chance?
Edit: One more thing: No offense but from what I've been seeing, it seems that players from different servers have different skill levels as well when compared with each other (example: Korean players are superior to players from other servers). Since your macro level's league is based on the NA server (I think), if you would somehow publish this map on the Korean server, would you match the macro level's league's skill level to that of the Korean server's skill level? (Same goes to other servers)
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On January 02 2012 04:14 neozxa wrote:
This mod is actually going to be pretty helpful, but sometimes though, it would downright piss players off, for example if a toss messes up and gets supply blocked, and then their opponent attacks, the toss can't reinforce his/her army since they're supply blocked, but they can defend with their workers. But then the nuke timer hits 0, all of the toss's workers gets nuked and he loses the game. It would be hilarious though.
Is this mod out on SEA, by any chance?
Edit: One more thing: No offense but from what I've been seeing, it seems that players from different servers have different skill levels as well when compared with each other (example: Korean players are superior to players from other servers). Since your macro level's league is based on the NA server (I think), if you would somehow publish this map on the Korean server, would you match the macro level's league's skill level to that of the Korean server's skill level? (Same goes to other servers)
I don't think it's accurate period. I"m silver and my macro is getting placed in platinum/diamond and it seems that I'm not the only one getting placed much higher than I actually am.
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On April 09 2012 03:43 coppuh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 04:14 neozxa wrote:
This mod is actually going to be pretty helpful, but sometimes though, it would downright piss players off, for example if a toss messes up and gets supply blocked, and then their opponent attacks, the toss can't reinforce his/her army since they're supply blocked, but they can defend with their workers. But then the nuke timer hits 0, all of the toss's workers gets nuked and he loses the game. It would be hilarious though.
Is this mod out on SEA, by any chance?
Edit: One more thing: No offense but from what I've been seeing, it seems that players from different servers have different skill levels as well when compared with each other (example: Korean players are superior to players from other servers). Since your macro level's league is based on the NA server (I think), if you would somehow publish this map on the Korean server, would you match the macro level's league's skill level to that of the Korean server's skill level? (Same goes to other servers) I don't think it's accurate period. I"m silver and my macro is getting placed in platinum/diamond and it seems that I'm not the only one getting placed much higher than I actually am.
Boss necropost
That aside, im going to guess you are doing it against the AI? It is much easier to play against AI than a person. Try playing against a gold-plat player and see if you can keep that macro up. (Thats an actual suggestion not a jab )
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What happened to all the Macro or Die maps? They seemed to have disappeared after Patch 1.5...
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maybe he have to upload them again...
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I've found them on Arcade, but it looks like they're broken. Would love for these maps to be fixed and reuploaded.
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yes would be nice. Also add the new maps pls.
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please fix this EXCELLENT map and bring it finally back!
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On June 11 2013 19:54 pieroog wrote:
please fix this EXCELLENT map and bring it finally back!
+1
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I've just recently heard of this map and it sounds really cool to play on and potentially a really great trainer for lower league players.
Would definitely be cool to see this be revived so I can try it out and maybe even in HotS.
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I would like to bump this as i would like to have a HotS map Do you still make these ? Or is another people do this ?
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On August 23 2013 04:42 FFW_Rude wrote:I would like to bump this as i would like to have a HotS map Do you still make these ? Or is another people do this ?
Not sure if he/she does.
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I never messed with the editor but would it be hard to convert those maps/triggers myself ?
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On August 28 2013 17:15 FFW_Rude wrote:
I never messed with the editor but would it be hard to convert those maps/triggers myself ?
I don't have any experience myself either. xD I have no idea.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/x9yg3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/e4Ftz.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/R438O.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XZnJDl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nR0l4.jpg)
