EPT[D] Base Vulnerabilities and You
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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NickMP
United States46 Posts
Thanks very much for writing this up! | ||
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TheAmazombie
United States3714 Posts
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LunaSaint
United Kingdom620 Posts
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Varpulis
United States2517 Posts
Great work, Barrin. It was an interesting read, and I'll definitely be referencing this the next time I try to make a map (Most of mine don't seem to reach completion, unfortunately). | ||
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dimfish
United States663 Posts
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FlopTurnReaver
Switzerland1980 Posts
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G_Wen
Canada525 Posts
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
good contribution ended up reading a bit more . helpful  | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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Tef
Sweden443 Posts
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adso
718 Posts
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
I will be back before long, but I can't promise I'll have anything relevant to add, ha. | ||
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G_Wen
Canada525 Posts
Shakuras Plateau vs Shakuras Plateau 2.0 Player feedback is incredibly important to us, so we decided to bring back Shakuras Plateau due in large part to popular demand by the community. There were two issues with this map, however, that we wanted to address before adding it back into the ladder pool (issues that we felt were severe enough to merit the removal of the map in the first place). The first issue was that the horizontal starting locations were extremely unfair in TvZ matchups (in favor of terran), and the second issue was that players only had one path to navigate around the map's center. To help correct these balance issues, we've made the following changes to its layout: The backdoor ramp and rocks leading into main base have been removed to address the horizontal start location issue. Two rocked-off ramps have been added leading from the 6 o'clock and 12 o'clock expansions towards the middle to create an alternate path in the mid/late game to navigate around the center of the map. The rocks by the center Xel'Naga Towers have been removed. We were noticing that if these rocks were there, it became very difficult to utilize the new rocked off-paths in the middle of the map (due to how difficult it was to clear out the Xel'Naga Tower area). We feel the changes we've made will allow this player favorite to return as a strong ladder map and are looking forward to seeing new strategies develop. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2267601507#1 If we actually take a look at two versions they did a pretty good job accomplishing what they wanted. 1.0: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IYiHf.jpg) 2.0: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PFY5p.png) We can indeed see that the the centre is more open. In addition by removing the rocks in the center and moving the ramps from the main to the centre expansions the map now features no attack paths that don't intersect with other attack paths. In other words every attack path can now be flanked. Due to the position of the new ramps and the removal of the centre expansions are now much more vulnerable while the main expansions are a lot safer. If we look at the old map and only take into account attack paths that are not obstructed by rocks you will notice that all attacks must come through the centre creating an extremely high density attack path layout. In the new addition every attack path in the centre is available from the beginning of the game allowing for a much lower attack density during the early and mid game. Additionally the map heavily discourages turtling due to how easy it is to drop in a main to harass the third and how open the central bases are. Thus games on Shakuras tend to be very aggressive and interesting. Also the reason no one covered this before is because it's a very basic topic that is difficult to discuss. Everyone understands what you're saying on a fundamental level but very few people can express it clearly. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On April 22 2011 08:45 Barrin wrote: Turtling. An infamous word. Why? Because it's boring. That is a highly subjective opinion and it is only boring if both contestants are doing the same passive style. If one is aggressive and tries to crack the shell of the turle and the other tries to defend it is most likely an enjoyable game because it isnt over after two balls of units meet in the middle of the map and have one decisive battle. On April 23 2011 18:01 G_Wen wrote: Additionally the map heavily discourages turtling due to how easy it is to drop in a main to harass the third and how open the central bases are. Thus games on Shakuras tend to be very aggressive and interesting. Another word for "turtling" is "defenders advantage" and I dont see that term used much except in PvP 4-gate vs. X-gate+Y-robo battles. There it has a positive ring to it, but for all other occasions (Terrans) it is supposed to be negative? That is a bad prejudice because Terran ground defensive structures arent that great in the first place (*1) but those Terrans need to turtle for some of their playstyles. Banelings are having a really easy time to kill buildings "instantly" already and it simply isnt possible to build 4-5 cannons like Protoss can Personally I think the old Shakuras allowed for more aggression because of the backdoor rock entrance which made it possible for all races to do a flanking attack without the need for drops / Nydus. Truly turtling is impossible on this map unless you want to leave roughly 3/4th of the resources to your opponent. (*1) because they are either HUGE and EXPENSIVE or require to be manned with part of your army supply ... | ||
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MapleFractal
Canada307 Posts
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On April 23 2011 19:53 Rabiator wrote:+ Show Spoiler + On April 22 2011 08:45 Barrin wrote: Turtling. An infamous word. Why? Because it's boring. That is a highly subjective opinion and it is only boring if both contestants are doing the same passive style. If one is aggressive and tries to crack the shell of the turle and the other tries to defend it is most likely an enjoyable game because it isnt over after two balls of units meet in the middle of the map and have one decisive battle. On April 23 2011 18:01 G_Wen wrote: Additionally the map heavily discourages turtling due to how easy it is to drop in a main to harass the third and how open the central bases are. Thus games on Shakuras tend to be very aggressive and interesting. Another word for "turtling" is "defenders advantage" and I dont see that term used much except in PvP 4-gate vs. X-gate+Y-robo battles. There it has a positive ring to it, but for all other occasions (Terrans) it is supposed to be negative? That is a bad prejudice because Terran ground defensive structures arent that great in the first place (*1) but those Terrans need to turtle for some of their playstyles. Banelings are having a really easy time to kill buildings "instantly" already and it simply isnt possible to build 4-5 cannons like Protoss can Personally I think the old Shakuras allowed for more aggression because of the backdoor rock entrance which made it possible for all races to do a flanking attack without the need for drops / Nydus. Truly turtling is impossible on this map unless you want to leave roughly 3/4th of the resources to your opponent. (*1) because they are either HUGE and EXPENSIVE or require to be manned with part of your army supply ... You seem to be conflating several distinct issues. I want to focus on turtling. The way it's being used here is to mean sitting on 2 or 3 bases while you make a dominating army. Subsequently you use your army to both threaten the opponent with complete destruction while asserting heavy map control, and you can expand behind that to keep from being so very all-in. I don't think anyone disagrees that's it's fun to watch harassment against a defensive player. The problem comes when turtling is too easy because of the map, at the expense of other styles. It should be a serious overall strategic choice to pursue a turtle-into-push strategy. It shouldn't be an automatic option because the map affords so much security and certainty to ensure an advantageous late game position. With regard to Shakuras Plateau, there were only narrow push paths directly to expansions of your opponent, so the push part of the turtle strategy was deemed too strong on the old version. The new version, as Gwen commented in his case study, does indeed improve the situation by allowing the defender to defray a push by using the available routes to flank or counterattack. That's not all! But later... | ||
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Shindo
United States22 Posts
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sebmathguy
United States26 Posts
Thanks for the advice! | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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adso
718 Posts
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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adso
718 Posts
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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bonsai__
Germany7 Posts
i was thinking about any "hard facts" for quite a while, as i was trying to make my own maps more balanced and more interesting, and this really helped me alot! | ||
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