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[Map] (4) Enigma by prodiG - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Ongweldt
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden54 Posts
September 10 2010 10:01 GMT
#41
Looks a bit like Fighting Spirit, very detailed and neat, probably not a single misplaced doodad. But I just got one minor problem, the middle area. I'm not a fan of the dual rich expansion. And... I can't help myself but 'the four cliffs' in the middle looks like something men got between their legs. There, now I've said it lol.
I aim to misbehave - www.dazonic.com
tofucake
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Hyrule19193 Posts
September 10 2010 10:11 GMT
#42
On September 10 2010 06:04 Acritter wrote:
I love the windmill pattern. It allows a player to expand away from the opponent no matter the positions, unlike Metalopolis.

Yeah, it's totally not a swastika.
Liquipediaasante sana squash banana
tofucake
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Hyrule19193 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 10:12:13
September 10 2010 10:11 GMT
#43
On September 10 2010 11:07 NiTrOuS wrote:
It looks a bit like zodiac, with the 3rd positioned there. Zodiac's center was open though....

Honestly...I don't see it. I still think it looks more like Gaia or FS than anything else.
Liquipediaasante sana squash banana
tofucake
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Hyrule19193 Posts
September 10 2010 10:17 GMT
#44
On September 10 2010 14:54 prodiG wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2010 13:44 kickinhead wrote:
wooow - I love this Map!

I want it in the ladder-mappool NOW!

maybe make the entrance to the main a little smaller?... For Z, It's really not as safe as the one on, let's say LT (if it wasn't for the cliff), cuz it's kinda hard to def with spine crawlers...

the ramp is the same size as the blizz maps o_o

it looks bigger because that cliff's ramp has a large bezel on the sides ^^

I think he meant "nat". Anyway, it does seem a little open, but with 1 tumor you can move your Spines far enough forward to protect the entire entrance.

Also, what's with those triangles? They weren't on beta 0.1/0.2 :|
Liquipediaasante sana squash banana
prodiG
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2016 Posts
September 10 2010 18:27 GMT
#45
On September 10 2010 19:17 tofucake wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2010 14:54 prodiG wrote:
On September 10 2010 13:44 kickinhead wrote:
wooow - I love this Map!

I want it in the ladder-mappool NOW!

maybe make the entrance to the main a little smaller?... For Z, It's really not as safe as the one on, let's say LT (if it wasn't for the cliff), cuz it's kinda hard to def with spine crawlers...

the ramp is the same size as the blizz maps o_o

it looks bigger because that cliff's ramp has a large bezel on the sides ^^

I think he meant "nat". Anyway, it does seem a little open, but with 1 tumor you can move your Spines far enough forward to protect the entire entrance.

Also, what's with those triangles? They weren't on beta 0.1/0.2 :|

I felt like the center was a little too open and lacking so I added it and decided I liked it :p
ESV Mapmaking Team || http://twitter.com/prodiGsc || Real talk, I don't have time to sugar-coat it for you sir
WarChimp
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Australia943 Posts
September 10 2010 18:44 GMT
#46
By the way prodiG did Blizzard get back to you about your job as level designer or something? I think it was you, you posted in a blog about you becoming the lead map designer or something.

Did they get back to you?
prodiG
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2016 Posts
September 10 2010 19:07 GMT
#47
On September 11 2010 03:44 WarChimp wrote:
By the way prodiG did Blizzard get back to you about your job as level designer or something? I think it was you, you posted in a blog about you becoming the lead map designer or something.

Did they get back to you?

i got turned down for lead level designer and level designer (understandably, both are jobs you need degrees or something for) but i'm waiting on associate level designer
ESV Mapmaking Team || http://twitter.com/prodiGsc || Real talk, I don't have time to sugar-coat it for you sir
tofucake
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Hyrule19193 Posts
September 10 2010 21:56 GMT
#48
I remember someone in an interview saying that the way to get hired by Blizzard was to spam applications (not all at once, but if you get rejected apply again and again and again etc).
Liquipediaasante sana squash banana
Antares777
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1971 Posts
September 10 2010 22:57 GMT
#49
@prodiG
If Blizzard hired you, do you think the map pool would be better (sorry that u didn't get the job )?
Niji87
Profile Joined September 2008
United States112 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-11 22:23:27
September 11 2010 11:47 GMT
#50
On September 09 2010 17:46 danson wrote:A) the middle expo is ridiculous. It is pretty much an instant win to whoever can take it, and thus if a player gains any sort of map or positional control, they have almost no chance to lose, and the defending player has no chance for a comeback (in high level play). This applies to every map with double expos, especially double GOLD expos.


Nah, it only has 750 per patch. This means it's the equivalent of a standard gold expo on regular Blizzard maps. You get the same overall income as you would from Lost Temple gold, in other words. The difference is that it takes more workers to set up quickly, 24 instead of 12, and you get a hightened income for a brief amount of time. The higher cost of setting it up, the Xel'Naga towers watching it, and the multiple attack angles on it make it just fine. The aggressor has the advantage at this expansion.

One of the parts I really like about it is that the minerals aren't pushed up against the cliff edges, which means you can kill workers/gas without worrying about a PF shooting you. Especially with all those angles you can get on them. You don't always have to kill the PF, yah? Sidestepping is a great tactic. As for the doubters, the center is actually pretty open. I fit an entire 200/200 T army in a single exit lane inside and behind the line of sight blockers for that center gold pretty easy. There were still 3 other exit lanes that were completely undefended. Haha. The map screenshot just makes it look small, probably because the map itself is pretty large.

The real benefit of the gold center expansion isn't the gold. It's the gas. I'd still rather expand to a safer blue for the long term minerals, especially considering that blue expansions all have 30% more overall minerals than standard golds, and this gold is efffectively a standard gold. Also, the standard blues are more defendable and linear. The gas, on the other hand, is godly. Four geysers is just so crazy! I suggest halving how much gas is in each of those geysers so it follows the same concept as the gold minerals. 10,000 gas at one expo is just silly, though. I would fight for that expo in every game I could to get that gas.

Just an FYI, the middle gold gives you an income tab rating of 1350 minerals with 2 workers on each gold patch and 475 gas rating with 3 workers in each gas. With 2 workers on each patch the gold dries up in approximately 8 in-game minutes of mining. The gas just wins. No MULE's were used, btw.

I think there may be too many minerals overall at the gold. Having such a high income, even for just five minutes is pretty beneficial for a timing push. Also, I wouldn't be surprised to see people who take the gold use it for setting up safer blue expansions rapidly once they learn that the gold dries up very fast. I would really like to see the total minerals in each patch go down to about 500. That means there's an overall mineral total of 6,000 there, compared to the regular 12,000 at a blue base.

-------------------------

There are, of course, a few potential issues. Terran MULE's are still godly and can heavily take advantage of that middle expo. Saving up MULE's just for that expo makes so much sense that I'd probably smack a Terran that didn't. There was only one map issue I was able to find. The left bottom wall guarding the gold has a spot where you can siege a tank and it can shoot into the mineral line. Every other side only allows the tank to reach halfway into the actual mineral patch, which means it can't target SCV's properly. Except for on the bottom left. If I find anything else wrong with it or questionable I'll post about it.

Anyway, PF's don't have the range to fight any form of harassment play in the center, thankfully. The distance from the main/natural to the center is big enough that players can really maneuver around. Defending the middle on this map feels like it'll be significantly more difficult than usual. This is definitely one of the most open maps I've played on. Devotion is the only other one that really feels as open to me. That screenshot really doesn't do justice to the size of the map. I suggest everyone at least test it vs Very Easy AI to feel the map out.

It's very easy to simply expand around the edges and just push into their natural that way. Guarding all those side expansions isn't easy if you have to protect the center, too. There are too many attack paths into the center. A 200/200 army can't cover the natural expo's, the side expo's blocked by rocks, and the center at the same time efficiently. Even if you defend the ground paths effectively and super turtle, every single bases mineral line is easily harassable by air. With the upcoming siege tank damage nerf, it's going to be one hell of a crazy map.

This is easily the best map I've seen and my new favorite SC2 map of all time.

Great map prodiG!



EDIT: I also feel I should mention that I highly approve of the destructable rock placement on this map. The gold needs it. There's no question about that. That kind of income in early game would be ludicrous. The rocks blocking the ramp by the natural are also very good. They keep the natural safe early, but allow for the aggressor to open another attack path later in the game. The lack of rocks blocking any expansions other than the gold is wonderful.
I am not very good at playing StarCraft.
kickinhead
Profile Joined December 2008
Switzerland2069 Posts
September 11 2010 12:42 GMT
#51
On September 11 2010 04:07 prodiG wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2010 03:44 WarChimp wrote:
By the way prodiG did Blizzard get back to you about your job as level designer or something? I think it was you, you posted in a blog about you becoming the lead map designer or something.

Did they get back to you?

i got turned down for lead level designer and level designer (understandably, both are jobs you need degrees or something for) but i'm waiting on associate level designer



Wow, I wish you best of luck, I really hope they involve sm1 from the community into the map-making process!
https://soundcloud.com/thesamplethief
Darpa
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada4413 Posts
September 11 2010 13:49 GMT
#52
Middle expo is pretty ridiculous. Not only would a player with map control dominate the crap out of the game, but if two players with even map control were playing, it would be damn near impossible to defend it. (think tanks/stalkers) on those ridges. Other than that, looks stellar to me.
"losers always whine about their best, Winners go home and fuck the prom queen"
R4ptur3d
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Canada206 Posts
September 11 2010 15:35 GMT
#53
Awesome map Mr. josh, I enjoyed smashing that kid I was playing on it while we were all OBSing it the other night lol built stargates around the middle and spammed carriers. Cracks me up everytime.
MinoMino
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway1103 Posts
September 11 2010 16:55 GMT
#54
Looks like one of the better maps out there. Well done. Good to see some macro oriented maps, those make for the best matches.
Blah.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
September 11 2010 20:34 GMT
#55
--- Nuked ---
thOr6136
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Slovenia1775 Posts
September 11 2010 21:36 GMT
#56
Can s1 upload it on EU, or i am just too blind to find it there?
GenesisX
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada4267 Posts
September 11 2010 22:09 GMT
#57
Wow this map is so good... I like it better than lost temple... which is saying a lot! Good job! :D
133 221 333 123 111
Antares777
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1971 Posts
September 11 2010 22:18 GMT
#58
On September 11 2010 22:49 Darpa wrote:
Middle expo is pretty ridiculous. Not only would a player with map control dominate the crap out of the game, but if two players with even map control were playing, it would be damn near impossible to defend it. (think tanks/stalkers) on those ridges. Other than that, looks stellar to me.


It would be easy to defend vs. Zerg. Think about it. What would Zerg drop on those ledges that you would be afraid of?
Niji87
Profile Joined September 2008
United States112 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-11 22:26:04
September 11 2010 22:18 GMT
#59
Tested it a bit more and it's possible to safely proxy Gateway behind the 3rd's minerals on the left and right sides of the map but not at the top and bottom sides.

What I mean by safely is that you can place the Pylon behind the center of the mineral line and then a Gateway at each end to seal it off. That's one of the few spots I could find where you could hide a Gateway and a scouting probe might miss it, most of the other spots that are closer are much easier to check. The Gateways are tucked far enough back from the scouting probes normal line of sight that it won't see them unless it purposefully checks.

Anyway, I suggest either shrinking the space behind the minerals on the left and right side to prevent hidden proxy gates/barracks (3x3 buildings) or increasing the space behind the minerals on the top and bottom so that it's even for all spawns.

It's your move Batman!
I am not very good at playing StarCraft.
prodiG
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2016 Posts
September 11 2010 22:56 GMT
#60
+ Show Spoiler [Niji87's Post] +

On September 11 2010 20:47 Niji87 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2010 17:46 danson wrote:A) the middle expo is ridiculous. It is pretty much an instant win to whoever can take it, and thus if a player gains any sort of map or positional control, they have almost no chance to lose, and the defending player has no chance for a comeback (in high level play). This applies to every map with double expos, especially double GOLD expos.


Nah, it only has 750 per patch. This means it's the equivalent of a standard gold expo on regular Blizzard maps. You get the same overall income as you would from Lost Temple gold, in other words. The difference is that it takes more workers to set up quickly, 24 instead of 12, and you get a hightened income for a brief amount of time. The higher cost of setting it up, the Xel'Naga towers watching it, and the multiple attack angles on it make it just fine. The aggressor has the advantage at this expansion.

One of the parts I really like about it is that the minerals aren't pushed up against the cliff edges, which means you can kill workers/gas without worrying about a PF shooting you. Especially with all those angles you can get on them. You don't always have to kill the PF, yah? Sidestepping is a great tactic. As for the doubters, the center is actually pretty open. I fit an entire 200/200 T army in a single exit lane inside and behind the line of sight blockers for that center gold pretty easy. There were still 3 other exit lanes that were completely undefended. Haha. The map screenshot just makes it look small, probably because the map itself is pretty large.

The real benefit of the gold center expansion isn't the gold. It's the gas. I'd still rather expand to a safer blue for the long term minerals, especially considering that blue expansions all have 30% more overall minerals than standard golds, and this gold is efffectively a standard gold. Also, the standard blues are more defendable and linear. The gas, on the other hand, is godly. Four geysers is just so crazy! I suggest halving how much gas is in each of those geysers so it follows the same concept as the gold minerals. 10,000 gas at one expo is just silly, though. I would fight for that expo in every game I could to get that gas.

Just an FYI, the middle gold gives you an income tab rating of 1350 minerals with 2 workers on each gold patch and 475 gas rating with 3 workers in each gas. With 2 workers on each patch the gold dries up in approximately 8 in-game minutes of mining. The gas just wins. No MULE's were used, btw.

I think there may be too many minerals overall at the gold. Having such a high income, even for just five minutes is pretty beneficial for a timing push. Also, I wouldn't be surprised to see people who take the gold use it for setting up safer blue expansions rapidly once they learn that the gold dries up very fast. I would really like to see the total minerals in each patch go down to about 500. That means there's an overall mineral total of 6,000 there, compared to the regular 12,000 at a blue base.

-------------------------

There are, of course, a few potential issues. Terran MULE's are still godly and can heavily take advantage of that middle expo. Saving up MULE's just for that expo makes so much sense that I'd probably smack a Terran that didn't. There was only one map issue I was able to find. The left bottom wall guarding the gold has a spot where you can siege a tank and it can shoot into the mineral line. Every other side only allows the tank to reach halfway into the actual mineral patch, which means it can't target SCV's properly. Except for on the bottom left. If I find anything else wrong with it or questionable I'll post about it.

Anyway, PF's don't have the range to fight any form of harassment play in the center, thankfully. The distance from the main/natural to the center is big enough that players can really maneuver around. Defending the middle on this map feels like it'll be significantly more difficult than usual. This is definitely one of the most open maps I've played on. Devotion is the only other one that really feels as open to me. That screenshot really doesn't do justice to the size of the map. I suggest everyone at least test it vs Very Easy AI to feel the map out.

It's very easy to simply expand around the edges and just push into their natural that way. Guarding all those side expansions isn't easy if you have to protect the center, too. There are too many attack paths into the center. A 200/200 army can't cover the natural expo's, the side expo's blocked by rocks, and the center at the same time efficiently. Even if you defend the ground paths effectively and super turtle, every single bases mineral line is easily harassable by air. With the upcoming siege tank damage nerf, it's going to be one hell of a crazy map.

This is easily the best map I've seen and my new favorite SC2 map of all time.

Great map prodiG!



EDIT: I also feel I should mention that I highly approve of the destructable rock placement on this map. The gold needs it. There's no question about that. That kind of income in early game would be ludicrous. The rocks blocking the ramp by the natural are also very good. They keep the natural safe early, but allow for the aggressor to open another attack path later in the game. The lack of rocks blocking any expansions other than the gold is wonderful.


Finally someone who understands the center 8)
I have been considering dropping it to 500 minerals/patch and 1250 gas/geyser but I'm waiting for some more feedback and testing to make a concrete decision as opposed to a purely theoretical one.

On September 11 2010 07:57 Antares777 wrote:
@prodiG
If Blizzard hired you, do you think the map pool would be better (sorry that u didn't get the job )?

If I was hired I would be pushing very hard to have the mapmaking team work closely with the Blizzard eSports team to try and create the best and most interesting map pool possible.


+ Show Spoiler [Niji87's awesome progamer testin…] +

On September 12 2010 07:18 Niji87 wrote:
Tested it a bit more and it's possible to safely proxy Gateway behind the 3rd's minerals on the left and right sides of the map but not at the top and bottom sides.

What I mean by safely is that you can place the Pylon behind the center of the mineral line and then a Gateway at each end to seal it off. That's one of the few spots I could find where you could hide a Gateway and a scouting probe might miss it, most of the other spots that are closer are much easier to check. The Gateways are tucked far enough back from the scouting probes normal line of sight that it won't see them unless it purposefully checks.

Anyway, I suggest either shrinking the space behind the minerals on the left and right side to prevent hidden proxy gates/barracks (3x3 buildings) or increasing the space behind the minerals on the top and bottom so that it's even for all spawns.

It's your move Batman!


This is an interesting imbalance... I think I'll open it up on both sides
ESV Mapmaking Team || http://twitter.com/prodiGsc || Real talk, I don't have time to sugar-coat it for you sir
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