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On June 17 2008 23:27 Chill wrote:
I feel like we're stuck in theory mode. Yes, if a map came out that rivaled Korean maps we would test it. No, one hasn't.
Though I disagree with that you'd test a map which rivaled korean maps, I also found we were stuck in theory mode, hence this. The idea of these tournaments if I can keep them running is to show the community maps we at bwm feel are good. I think it's a better first step to try and show off our maps than to tell everyone to make "pro quality maps".
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I respect the opinions of all of the higher powers who are by now probably frustrated with everyone arguing for this. I am going to make an argument for it as well, but I will understand if its overlooked.
First of all, the only way we the viewers could sway the minds of the tournament administrators is with extremist ideas that if anyone tries, I'll kill 'em myself. You have to realize that is not about us here. Yes, we are brought coverage, but TL.net could just as easily thrive just releasing replays and having a closed door tournament. It is about the gamers. So without anything from them, we have nothing.
Second, we need to be logistical in terms of creators. You can say all day "Let's have a map making contest" or "Let's put together a TSL mapping team". The contest is just a bad idea. Too much time would be wasted sorting through pieces of junk that some idiot thought was a masterpiece. The team, while is great on paper, would most likely end up in a flop, because it would have to be people over the internet who don't truly know each other, conflicts of interest would come into play and a whole slew of other things. What needs to happen for this is the TSL admins have to pick ONE map maker whom they believe would best carry out their intentions. While difficult, this would be doable, and the only way that a true map could be created. The OGN/MBC mapping teams are different, they hire people and move them to their central HQ's in Korea. I'm not saying other mappers couldn't be used to bounce ideas off of, but they would have to work primarily independently.
Third, no offense to Chill, Pachi and Plexa (the admins I notice checking this particular thread), but you have to accept that we probably won't rival a Korean map if we do this, and that if put into effect you would need to chose the next best thing, so long as they don't all have blatant issues. My reasoning as to why we won't have a map that rivals that of a Korean is not competency, not because foreignors "don't have a deep enough understanding", because I think foreign mappers have a pretty good grasp on the game and that they are competent otherwise we wouldn't have players ranking high in iCCup and it would be saturated with Koreans. No knock to the foreign mapping community, but it's motivation. The mappers for OGN and MBC are being paid to create these maps. We are not. However, if there was such motivation that a mapper could dedicate, then we might have an amazing map.
Fourth, as exciting as TSL was, and it was so exciting, I got a complete non-SC player glued to the screen for the finals, for someone who watches a TON of progaming and such, I was slightly bored. I was bored with the same builds. The games themselves were exciting because of JF's possible and eventual comeback, but the build orders were stale and the gameplay wasn't innovative, and for a $5K prize, which is half of the Aerican equivalent of Flash's paycheck for the GSI, I want to see innovation and new builds. They won't happen on Korean maps, because they are played so much. A new map could create this, but it would have to be the right map.
Fifth, with such strong ties to iCCup, who's to say we can't get a map or two incredibly tested. Sure, iCCup would have to put out some pretty lucrative rewards but it could happen. The problem would be getting replays, but again, iCCup can help that. They have level tournaments all season long. Put out an A tournament or 2 and have our map be one of the maps used. Put it in a position where each match must play it at least once. The top players will come out for the tournament and have to play it. Put it in MOTW with several other rarely used maps. iCCup needs to get Longinus, Tau Cross, Python etc out of the MOTW cycles for at least a season. And you ould distribute the maps to a team like ToT or 50CaL for use. the major teams have off time, and most of them as someone said have Korean connections. Use them for something interesting. Hell, the Korean may be more than willing to accept.
I know it sounds like a stretch, but there is a way it can be done.
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On June 18 2008 07:16 WorldCommunist8 wrote:
Fourth, as exciting as TSL was, and it was so exciting, I got a complete non-SC player glued to the screen for the finals, for someone who watches a TON of progaming and such, I was slightly bored. I was bored with the same builds. The games themselves were exciting because of JF's possible and eventual comeback, but the build orders were stale and the gameplay wasn't innovative, and for a $5K prize, which is half of the Aerican equivalent of Flash's paycheck for the GSI, I want to see innovation and new builds. They won't happen on Korean maps, because they are played so much. A new map could create this, but it would have to be the right map.
The thing about this is that there is a huge mass of thousands of people that tune into gomtv averatec classic every weekend, and they've seen all these strategies on all these maps.
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I really honestly believe you guys are overestimating map making a bit. It's not that hard to make maps and it's also not astronomically impossible to ever dream of getting close to match Kespa quality maps in terms of balance. Really, we can do it. We just need to try to. Most foreign maps aren't too balanced because they just didn't try to! They were made in whatever other circumstance that wasn't "I must make a Kespa balanced map for a serious competetive league". Usually ppl just make maps for fun. If we are to make balanced maps, we can. It just never happened before.
You might say "if it's so easy how come even Kespa makes some mistakes?" and the answer is because they take too much chances trying to innovate, and even when they make mistakes they aren't that bad. If we want to play safe, we can just go slow on innovation and make standard maps. We could simply copy/paste every pixel from Python and call it a map. That would be balanced, though wouldn't be exciting. So then we just go sloooowly moving into the direction of "exciting" without leaving "balanced" too far behind, until we're satisfied with a point between.
We can do it. It's not as hard as some of you think. We just need to set on stone some very explicit rules of "balance" is, what "standardization" is, what key features a map must have and exactly what limits can creativity go to. If we have some safe specifics such as "main minerals must be X1 to X2. nat choke must be Y1 to Y2. distance between mains must be Z1 to Z2". Then it can't go wrong. Just set up some very conservative rules that mimic previous balanced maps and I'm 100% sure we can make good enough maps to compete at pro level.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On June 18 2008 04:09 anotak wrote:
Need help to get them played.
/f m
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lol you guys act like we don't already do these things when we make maps. We borrow and alter all sorts of aspects from the already made maps, similar mineral formations, distances, sizes, etc. We consider, when we deviate from these norms, what effect it will have on gameplay, etc. Our best mappers are really good at making well made maps. But TSL doesn't want or need just a well-made map, but a well-made map with an interesting concept with reasonably good balance. A map which doesn't force one strategy every game, or create dominant strategies.
Many of you I think are underestimating the best bwm mappers -.-
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Calgary26004 Posts
Given the maps I've seen from them, I don't.
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I'm sure many are going to totally disagree with me, but I for one don't think there is a need to run 5000 games or what not on a map to make sure its balanced. Even with that, it doesn't necessary mean that you are able to remove the inbalance without modifying the fundamentals of the map.
As it is, the maps used in the korean leagues aren't totally balanced, there's always talk of this map being terran favored, or protoss favored etc. So there's always going to be implications of playing on a map verses another whither it is korean made or not. With that said, that doesn't mean I don't agree with doing what you can to make the map balanced and using common sense when creating the map, but in a way i believe running a lot of tests on it would REVEAL the flaws of the maps more so than letting the players figure out themselves with limited practice.
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On June 18 2008 10:58 Chill wrote:
Given the maps I've seen from them, I don't.
lol you got to be fuckin kidding me. Please do look up LostTampon, StarParty, Crackling, Testbug and so many more.
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On June 18 2008 15:06 NastyMarine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2008 10:58 Chill wrote:
Given the maps I've seen from them, I don't. lol you got to be fuckin kidding me. Please do look up LostTampon, StarParty, Crackling, Testbug and so many more.
easy there hotshot
i believe chill is saying he doesnt underestimate them
which means he thinks they can make goodly maps
i personally love playing with friends on some of the foreign made maps, and think this is a good idea for bringing a new dimension to the tsl
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 18 2008 07:16 WorldCommunist8 wrote:
Third, no offense to Chill, Pachi and Plexa (the admins I notice checking this particular thread), but you have to accept that we probably won't rival a Korean map if we do this, and that if put into effect you would need to chose the next best thing, so long as they don't all have blatant issues. My reasoning as to why we won't have a map that rivals that of a Korean is not competency, not because foreignors "don't have a deep enough understanding", because I think foreign mappers have a pretty good grasp on the game and that they are competent otherwise we wouldn't have players ranking high in iCCup and it would be saturated with Koreans. No knock to the foreign mapping community, but it's motivation. The mappers for OGN and MBC are being paid to create these maps. We are not. However, if there was such motivation that a mapper could dedicate, then we might have an amazing map. >.< im one of the biggest proponents of a foreign map being included ;;
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
I don't see why this issue should be forced. TSL is about quality - if a foreign map is made that is of top quality then it would be a release candidate for TSL. Putting in a foreign map just so that we have one is ludicrous. Imagine someone made monty hall and we included it and then fucked the tournament over because of balance issues.....yes it would be great to have a foreign map included, but under no circumstances would we put one in JUST to have it there.
Despite the teasing nightmarjoo we actually did have a heated discussing about Faoi and ultimately it came down to the feedback from top players and those in "the know". If you can sway that vote, it would be a different story
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
sorry, i dont want it to sound like it was on the edge. It was determined very early that faoi wouldn't be used, but we still discussed it.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Kennigit said it 100% correct
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On June 18 2008 23:14 Kennigit wrote:
I don't see why this issue should be forced. TSL is about quality - if a foreign map is made that is of top quality then it would be a release candidate for TSL. Putting in a foreign map just so that we have one is ludicrous. Imagine someone made monty hall and we included it and then fucked the tournament over because of balance issues.....yes it would be great to have a foreign map included, but under no circumstances would we put one in JUST to have it there.
Despite the teasing nightmarjoo we actually did have a heated discussing about Faoi and ultimately it came down to the feedback from top players and those in "the know". If you can sway that vote, it would be a different story
no one is suggesting monty hall. that is as experimental as it gets. As far as crazy maps, the most experimental map you'd would be spinel valley or something along those lines.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
oh god, im not saying monty hall either - i just used it as an example - it could be any map.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On June 18 2008 23:14 Kennigit wrote:
Despite the teasing nightmarjoo we actually did have a heated discussing about Faoi and ultimately it came down to the feedback from top players and those in "the know". If you can sway that vote, it would be a different story
I called it. Get the support of the players behind your map. If it's TSL-worthy then it will get there on its own momentum: you won't even need to ask.
Believe me, everyone already thinks it would be cool to see a successful non-korean map -- just not to the point where they'd push one onto players who don't want it.
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Well, what kind of map do the players want? So far the ones in this thread have just said "no foreign maps" because they're foreign / not-korean played/made/tested.
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Calgary26004 Posts
God, do something for yourself. You want us to come up with a map concept, that you then make and we just sweep you off your feet, promote it and test it with top foreigners?
Do you really think there's an answer to "What kind of map do the players want?" I'll answer - there isn't.
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It was a figure of speech Chill. All we ask from you AND the community would be cooperation not pithy comebacks to stuff we enjoy doing.
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EPT
