EPTBut I dont disagree with you, I actually lost a lot of respect for Bisu as a programer. But as a starcraft player he is pretty entertaining to watch =).
Power Rank 02/02/2009 - Page 16
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p4fn2w
401 Posts
But I dont disagree with you, I actually lost a lot of respect for Bisu as a programer. But as a starcraft player he is pretty entertaining to watch =). | ||
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
On February 18 2009 10:57 p4fn2w wrote: I'm all up for that line of thinking, and I actually used a similar argument in favor of Bisu during that Bisu vs Stork debate months ago. What gets me is that half of the people shot down that argument by saying the PR should take into account the months prior, where Stork beat Bisu in a BO3 in OSL, thus favoring Stork over Bisu. And now that the tables have turned, I'm using the exact same reasoning, but everyone somehow switched their line of thinking and favor Flash over Bisu. It seems the majority never wants Bisu to win unless he is clearly a few leagues above everyone else. I don't think the situation now is the same. Let me explain why I think so: 1. The time Stork won the OSL he was playing phenomenally. He had incredibly hard road to his title and yet he won it. Let me remind you that he beat Bisu and than BeSt in semifinal who was at that time on the incredible 16 PvP winning streak and seemed to be untouchable. At the same time, even though with very busy schedule Stork managed to get to 1/4 of MSL winning set against ForGG who at that time was really really strong and losing close set to Kal simply because he was practicing for OSL final. At the time PR appeared I remember that Bisu just won MSL, Ture, he showed really dominating play but at that time almost everyone was still under impression of dominant play by Stork. For me Bisu started to rise only just before the PR and then he proved that he is no1. 2. Now we have the following situation. Flash in February ad incredibly busy schedule playing all top opponents. I don't think I need to mention the names but what is worth mentioning is that he went 9:0 against them showing incredibly impressive play. He is in both leagues and he is leading in a 1/16 set against Leta. Now Bisu won GOMTV. That surely counts. But don't forget that Bisu is not in MSL and is not showing nearly as much dominance as he did before. Also, since GOM runs over such a long time it is hard to say if it is outcome of the current players form. That's why for me only recent games of GOM matter but not the results as a whole (ie. winning the title) carries lower weight. So for now I would say Flash is a bit above Bisu simply because he shows incredible dominance that Bisu showed a couple of months ago. Again, Bisu is sill a monster but in my opinion he is less fearful as he was before his disaster with OSL and MSL. Now, this can all change in the next week or two or even just before next PR. If Bisu beats Jaedong in the incoming set he will be definitely showing signs that he deserves no1. Also Flash has a lot on the stake. As a Flash fan I would like to see him winning all his games ahead but I am not so blind to say he won't lose. To sum up, it is pointless to argue right now about the players  | ||
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Lockon Stratos
United States126 Posts
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p4fn2w
401 Posts
On February 18 2009 13:39 Lebesgue wrote: I don't think the situation now is the same. Let me explain why I think so: 1. The time Stork won the OSL he was playing phenomenally. He had incredibly hard road to his title and yet he won it. Let me remind you that he beat Bisu and than BeSt in semifinal who was at that time on the incredible 16 PvP winning streak and seemed to be untouchable. At the same time, even though with very busy schedule Stork managed to get to 1/4 of MSL winning set against ForGG who at that time was really really strong and losing close set to Kal simply because he was practicing for OSL final. At the time PR appeared I remember that Bisu just won MSL, Ture, he showed really dominating play but at that time almost everyone was still under impression of dominant play by Stork. For me Bisu started to rise only just before the PR and then he proved that he is no1. 2. Now we have the following situation. Flash in February ad incredibly busy schedule playing all top opponents. I don't think I need to mention the names but what is worth mentioning is that he went 9:0 against them showing incredibly impressive play. He is in both leagues and he is leading in a 1/16 set against Leta. Now Bisu won GOMTV. That surely counts. But don't forget that Bisu is not in MSL and is not showing nearly as much dominance as he did before. Also, since GOM runs over such a long time it is hard to say if it is outcome of the current players form. That's why for me only recent games of GOM matter but not the results as a whole (ie. winning the title) carries lower weight. So for now I would say Flash is a bit above Bisu simply because he shows incredible dominance that Bisu showed a couple of months ago. Again, Bisu is sill a monster but in my opinion he is less fearful as he was before his disaster with OSL and MSL. Now, this can all change in the next week or two or even just before next PR. If Bisu beats Jaedong in the incoming set he will be definitely showing signs that he deserves no1. Also Flash has a lot on the stake. As a Flash fan I would like to see him winning all his games ahead but I am not so blind to say he won't lose. To sum up, it is pointless to argue right now about the players Although I respect your post, I disagree with number 1. The debate of Stork vs Bisu was for the December rankings, but Stork beat Bisu and Best during October, not November. Using these victories as an argument for Stork only reinforces Bisu's argument in this case, since it considers achievements from results prior to the PR's month. And at that time, Stork was NOT showing phenomenal play right before December's ranking took place. His performance in November + the first few days of December before the PR came out consists of a 3-2 victory over Fantasy and a 25% winning rate in PL. As of the GOM finals, Bisu was able to maintain around an 80% win rate stretching for over a month (starting from his MSL win, not his entire career), and he was able to defeat Flash in both a BO3 and a PL BO1 match. You said that "almost everyone was still under impression of dominant play by Stork" at that time, and now I feel the same for Bisu. I understand your feeling on the weight of GOM, but I dont wholeheartedly agree with it since the longer GOM stretches, the longer you have to keep a dominant form in order to advance and eventually win it, which is what I believe Bisu have done. I feel winning GOM proves your dominance just as much, if not more, than the MSL or OSL. And I agree with your last statement. I guess I got too carried away about a subtle double standard that some people are holding right now, and I guess I'll drop the argument unless I felt something really needs to be addressed. =) | ||
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
On February 18 2009 13:57 p4fn2w wrote: Although I respect your post, I disagree with number 1. The debate of Stork vs Bisu was for the December rankings, but Stork beat Bisu and Best during October, not November. Using these victories as an argument for Stork only reinforces Bisu's argument in this case, since it considers achievements from results prior to the PR's month. And at that time, Stork was NOT showing phenomenal play right before December's ranking took place. His performance in November + the first few days of December before the PR came out consists of a 3-2 victory over Fantasy and a 25% winning rate in PL. As of the GOM finals, Bisu was able to maintain around an 80% win rate stretching for over a month (starting from his MSL win, not his entire career), and he was able to defeat Flash in both a BO3 and a PL BO1 match. You said that "almost everyone was still under impression of dominant play by Stork" at that time, and now I feel the same for Bisu. I understand your feeling on the weight of GOM, but I dont wholeheartedly agree with it since the longer GOM stretches, the longer you have to keep a dominant form in order to advance and eventually win it, which is what I believe Bisu have done. I feel winning GOM proves your dominance just as much, if not more, than the MSL or OSL. And I agree with your last statement. I guess I got too carried away about a subtle double standard that some people are holding right now, and I guess I'll drop the argument unless I felt something really needs to be addressed. =) I haven't been checking exact timing but so I wrote what I remembered when there was that debate. So I guess 'we agree to disagree' which is perfectly fine  And given the current game schedules by the next PR everything should be clearer since as of now there are not many contenders for #1. | ||
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
Kal and Free have amazing PvZ lately Jaedong, Bisu, and Flash all deserve the top 3 spots. Jaedong vs Bisu BO7 should decide the PR placement | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On February 18 2009 16:48 AzureEye wrote: Stork looked very solid during his last OSL journey. Even his PvZ was top notch during then imo. Nowadays...I don't know what to say. Kal and Free have amazing PvZ lately Jaedong, Bisu, and Flash all deserve the top 3 spots. Jaedong vs Bisu BO7 should decide the PR placement + Show Spoiler + Yeah , sucks for Flash thought , he just got eliminated from OSL , i think the power rank should value more WL and people who are doing all - kills or semi - all kills (players who are bringing the wins for their teams ) and are doing good in the leagues (example Flash/Jaedong) even if they get eliminated from 1 of them . I'm not saing that Bisu doesn't deserve the top 1 - 2 spot , but he isn't overworked or at least it doesn't seem that way in Proleague . I haven't seen him win a WL series when his team had to depend on him since the game vs ACE he failed versus Woondjin and Light ) . Look at how well prepared Bisu was versus July and how Flash sucked against Best today , after he had to play 4 games in WL and failed to bring home either the win for his team and the OSL game , but i would still give him a lot of points for the effort he shows every game that he plays . He obviously can't win them all its sad , but true . And today he got the worst of it - losing the last game against Estro and game against Best . | ||
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theonemephisto
United States409 Posts
On February 18 2009 21:28 raga4ka wrote: + Show Spoiler + Yeah , sucks for Flash thought , he just got eliminated from OSL , i think the power rank should value more WL and people who are doing all - kills or semi - all kills (players who are bringing the wins for their teams ) and are doing good in the leagues (example Flash/Jaedong) even if they get eliminated from 1 of them . I'm not saing that Bisu doesn't deserve the top 1 - 2 spot , but he isn't overworked or at least it doesn't seem that way in Proleague . I haven't seen him win a WL series when his team had to depend on him since the game vs ACE he failed versus Woondjin and Light ) . Look at how well prepared Bisu was versus July and how Flash sucked against Best today , after he had to play 4 games in WL and failed to bring home either the win for his team and the OSL game , but i would still give him a lot of points for the effort he shows every game that he plays . He obviously can't win them all its sad , but true . And today he got the worst of it - losing the last game against Estro and game against Best . + Show Spoiler + Yea, Flash had a rough day. Of course, he still had some great games (who was the last person to win with MnM TvP?), and IMO it's easier to forgive Flash giving up a couple of games to top-line players due to his schedule and the pressure on him. Man, I just can't even imagine what goes through his head when he gets into that booth, knowing that he HAS to win 4 games in a row because his team fails and then he has to go play one of the best PvTs in the game right after. And that a bunch of those games are going to be players who have practiced for a week to snipe him and only him. Now we just have to see if Flash can bounce back or if he's going into an overwork slump again. | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
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Fx_
503 Posts
he need more time to rest... | ||
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Nick_54
United States2230 Posts
On February 18 2009 05:32 raga4ka wrote: People start criticizing him thats what , but BEST has to knock him out first  Well... | ||
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
"You can't win them all." -A Flash Fan Why can't that apply to Bisu as well? | ||
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Lockon Stratos
United States126 Posts
On February 19 2009 05:55 Sentenal wrote: lol, people acting all forgiving to Flash dropping the OSL, and being overly critical on Bisu for dropping a few PL games. "You can't win them all." -A Flash Fan Why can't that apply to Bisu as well? Because Flash's schedule does not apply to Bisu. | ||
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Darth Peter
Romania438 Posts
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Lockon Stratos
United States126 Posts
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
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disciple
9071 Posts
On February 19 2009 06:02 Lockon Stratos wrote: Because Flash's schedule does not apply to Bisu. oh really ? well flash played 7 games more this month but in January he had in total 8 games compared to Bisu's 23. Those 23 include the games vs hero, zero and savior, but no one ever mentioned busy schedule as an excuse. The fact is KTY had more games to play in the past two months than any other progamer and he still managed to keep his dominate form and to hold his elo above 2300 | ||
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Fx_
503 Posts
BUT now i wanna see how long Bisu(or JD or somebody else, not important) can play well If he been plays every single match and.... no less than 3 games  | ||
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traced
1739 Posts
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Kong John
Denmark1020 Posts
On February 18 2009 21:28 raga4ka wrote: + Show Spoiler + Yeah , sucks for Flash thought , he just got eliminated from OSL , i think the power rank should value more WL and people who are doing all - kills or semi - all kills (players who are bringing the wins for their teams ) and are doing good in the leagues (example Flash/Jaedong) even if they get eliminated from 1 of them . I'm not saing that Bisu doesn't deserve the top 1 - 2 spot , but he isn't overworked or at least it doesn't seem that way in Proleague . I haven't seen him win a WL series when his team had to depend on him since the game vs ACE he failed versus Woondjin and Light ) . Look at how well prepared Bisu was versus July and how Flash sucked against Best today , after he had to play 4 games in WL and failed to bring home either the win for his team and the OSL game , but i would still give him a lot of points for the effort he shows every game that he plays . He obviously can't win them all its sad , but true . And today he got the worst of it - losing the last game against Estro and game against Best . I somewhat disagre here, sure Flash does a great job in WL but he just isent the star he used to be. I think starleagues should be valued higher than WL since they are IMO the most important tournaments for a single player, and that is what we are measuring in the PL, individual skill. Just becourse Flash is in a bad position dosent mean he should be put higher, this is about POWER not pity. | ||
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