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On November 24 2008 07:20 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2008 06:58 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Lecaf vs Samsung spoiler. + Show Spoiler +I think Firebathero should get like rank 6-7 next PR, seriously his TvT is among the best out there, his TvZ is obviously top notch and his TvP has been improved vastly FBH has great TvZ and TvT (he always has) but idk if that's enough to move him to #6 or 7. Maybe near the bottom end, most likely either #9 or #10, because his 0-3 against Bisu has to be considered.
Yes, although Bisu is nr 1 or 2 next month probably, so losing to him in a semis isn't really that bad. Maybe he choked.
Only flash should be above him as a terran though. For example stork was quite high in the PR even when his PvZ was quite avarage..
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9071 Posts
On November 24 2008 07:33 OneOther wrote:
Discussion Topic: Where should Jaedong be next month?
My thoughts: Somewhere between #7-9.
He should definitely be dropped because he's still under-performing.
7 is justified I guess, having in mind the ppl above him should be Stork, Bisu, JangBi,free, Flash, kal
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On November 24 2008 07:50 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2008 07:33 OneOther wrote:
Discussion Topic: Where should Jaedong be next month?
My thoughts: Somewhere between #7-9.
He should definitely be dropped because he's still under-performing. 7 is justified I guess, having in mind the ppl above him should be Stork, Bisu, JangBi,free, Flash, kal
Kal is questionable, but justified in the long run, so yeah, 7th would be good.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
huh? jaedong is underperforming? since when?
the guy is 5-2 this month, dropping games to FBH and Kal and crushing a host of chumps
Even combined with his loss to free, jaedong is almost 70% over the last two months. If he didn't drop very far after losing to han, and we understand that the series vs free was fucking great but he got legitimately outplayed in game 3, why would he drop to 7-9? How can anyone justify putting players like jangbi or kal above him, when jaedong has been consistantly playing well this entire time?
Even Flash, who is riding a wave of inferior TvT players and playing very well, shouldn't be above jaedong right now. Look what happened last time those two played - Flash tried to 14cc AGAIN, and jaedong punished him with strong ling micro.
jaedong is still playing exceedingly well. making an earlier exit from MSL/OSL than jangbi/kal doesn't necessary mean he is playing worse overall than those players.
I'm going to have a hell of a time trying to find an accurate place for Jaedong, but he's definitely not playing bad enough to warrant 7th place. There just aren't that many people playing better than he is.
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On November 24 2008 08:41 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
huh? jaedong is underperforming? since when?
the guy is 5-2 this month, dropping games to FBH and Kal and crushing a host of chumps
Even combined with his loss to free, jaedong is almost 70% over the last two months. If he didn't drop very far after losing to han, and we understand that the series vs free was fucking great but he got legitimately outplayed in game 3, why would he drop to 7-9? How can anyone justify putting players like jangbi or kal above him, when jaedong has been consistantly playing well this entire time?
Even Flash, who is riding a wave of inferior TvT players and playing very well, shouldn't be above jaedong right now. Look what happened last time those two played - Flash tried to 14cc AGAIN, and jaedong punished him with strong ling micro.
jaedong is still playing exceedingly well. making an earlier exit from MSL/OSL than jangbi/kal doesn't necessary mean he is playing worse overall than those players.
I'm going to have a hell of a time trying to find an accurate place for Jaedong, but he's definitely not playing bad enough to warrant 7th place. There just aren't that many people playing better than he is.
Does this mean you're writing the next PR?
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United States10774 Posts
On November 24 2008 08:41 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
huh? jaedong is underperforming? since when?
the guy is 5-2 this month, dropping games to FBH and Kal and crushing a host of chumps
Even combined with his loss to free, jaedong is almost 70% over the last two months. If he didn't drop very far after losing to han, and we understand that the series vs free was fucking great but he got legitimately outplayed in game 3, why would he drop to 7-9? How can anyone justify putting players like jangbi or kal above him, when jaedong has been consistantly playing well this entire time?
Even Flash, who is riding a wave of inferior TvT players and playing very well, shouldn't be above jaedong right now. Look what happened last time those two played - Flash tried to 14cc AGAIN, and jaedong punished him with strong ling micro.
jaedong is still playing exceedingly well. making an earlier exit from MSL/OSL than jangbi/kal doesn't necessary mean he is playing worse overall than those players.
I'm going to have a hell of a time trying to find an accurate place for Jaedong, but he's definitely not playing bad enough to warrant 7th place. There just aren't that many people playing better than he is.
Have you been watching his games?
Why would Jaedong be above Kal? That 5-2 (4-2 in Proleague during November, don't know where you are getting the 5-2 from) record doesn't mean shit when it's against players like Sunny, Soo, and Shark. They all suck, and they suck whole a lot vs Zerg. Kal should be above Jaedong because he beat JD and Stork in crucial ace matches. That sure sounds better than Jaedong losing ace matches and stomping no names like Sunny and Soo?
Jangbi needs to above Jaedong, too. He played very well against Kal and although he lost to Bisu in the finals, he is certainly playing better than Jaedong. Jangbi didn't know how to lose prior to the the Bisu match. I don't think a loss to one of the best players right now should be penalized more than Jaedong dropping games left and right.
Jaedong above Flash? What?! Flash leads Proleague with the best record and on a six win streak, while Jaedong is at 9-5.I don't see how Jaedong beating him with early pool lings verses 14 CC in early October should put him at a higher spot. Jaedong is anything but playing exceedingly well. Everyone can see it when they watch him play. It's obvious.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
You think Jangbi (especially Jangbi) and Kal are better players than they actually are, and you put too much emphasis on name value.
Flash only played 3 games this month, all of them against the same player. none of the games were anything special, just fantasy choosing poor builds (goliath drop vs siege expand on andromeda? come on) and getting fucked up by the same stuff Flash has done in TvT for the last six months. This shouldn't be a major credit to Flash, it should be a negative tally for Fantasy and the rest of the slobs Flash has beaten in TvT lately.
The games Jaedong has won lately (though less apparent this month because his opponents sucked) are the same games he's been winning for a long time - highly skilled, aggressive zerg play, with a lot of variety.
I don't see how you can think that Jangbi or Kal deserve a spot above Jaedong. Jangbi's PvT is really good, okay. His PvP is terrible (I know you disagree with that, but come on, we're talking about a guy who lost to BACKHO bo3 in EVER 2008). Kal's PvP is terrible too, either player stood basically no chance against Bisu. The game Kal and Jaedong played was great - both players played very well and it was entertaining. However, more or less all of Jaedong's games are at that level, win or lose, whereas Kal playing that well is much more rare. This is, after all, a player who couldn't overcome his own PvP problems to take out Jangbi, and a player who lost to firebathero's abysmal TvP on Destination (and god, what an ugly game that was).
So yeah. You think Jangbi and Kal are better than they are, you give Flash too much credit for his recent performance, and you don't understand that Jaedong's games are consistantly at the highest level of pro StarCraft.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 24 2008 09:28 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
You think Jangbi (especially Jangbi) and Kal are better players than they actually are, and you put too much emphasis on name value.
Flash only played 3 games this month, all of them against the same player. none of the games were anything special, just fantasy choosing poor builds (goliath drop vs siege expand on andromeda? come on) and getting fucked up by the same stuff Flash has done in TvT for the last six months. This shouldn't be a major credit to Flash, it should be a negative tally for Fantasy and the rest of the slobs Flash has beaten in TvT lately.
The games Jaedong has won lately (though less apparent this month because his opponents sucked) are the same games he's been winning for a long time - highly skilled, aggressive zerg play, with a lot of variety.
I don't see how you can think that Jangbi or Kal deserve a spot above Jaedong. Jangbi's PvT is really good, okay. His PvP is terrible (I know you disagree with that, but come on, we're talking about a guy who lost to BACKHO bo3 in EVER 2008). Kal's PvP is terrible too, either player stood basically no chance against Bisu. The game Kal and Jaedong played was great - both players played very well and it was entertaining. However, more or less all of Jaedong's games are at that level, win or lose, whereas Kal playing that well is much more rare. This is, after all, a player who couldn't overcome his own PvP problems to take out Jangbi, and a player who lost to firebathero's abysmal TvP on Destination (and god, what an ugly game that was).
So yeah. You think Jangbi and Kal are better than they are, you give Flash too much credit for his recent performance, and you don't understand that Jaedong's games are consistantly at the highest level of pro StarCraft.
No, I am not putting any emphasis on the name value. I am just observing the games and making logical conclusions.
First of all, no matter how much you want to disagree with this, Jaedong is not playing at the same level. Getting spanked by FBH like that (it wasn't cheese win or anything) is not something a normal Jaedong would do. If you haven't watched this game, I highly recommend you do. His muta micro was subar - in fact pretty awful if you want me to be honest - losing all but one after minimal harassment. Then he loses three lurkers by burrowing them in worst possible location and getting surrounded by marines. Even his defiler management wasn't the same, constantly losing expos when he could have saved them with dark swarm. Don't get me wrong, FBH is awesome at TvZ, but Jaedong's play dropped. It's a fact. Now, let's move on to the ace match vs Kal. If anything, Jaedong needs to be penalized for this pathetic game. There is no way in hell he would have lost this game if he hasn't been under-performing. Kal cuts probes, and does a shuttle/2 reaver + speed zealots attack. Jaedong snipes the shuttle and both reavers, and Kal suicides his zealots. Note that this game is on Andromeda, a Zerg favored map in ZvP. Then what does he do? Jaedong decides to spend all the resources on 24 lurkers and suicides them all into dragoons and high templars. His crappy play in these two crucial games alone justify, in my opinion, a lowered placement for him. You call this "consistent highest level of pro StarCraft?" If he can only show that verses terrible players like Shark, Soo, and Sunny, your argument fails. He needs to be able to show it verses all players, win or lose.
Secondly, I disagree with mostly everything you said about Jangbi and Kal. Jangbi's PvP may not be as good as his PvT and PvZ, (which are both outstanding) but he has vastly improved in this matchup. Jangbi did lose to Backho 1-2 in the EVER OSL, but he has since beaten very good Protoss players like Stork, Free, Much, and Kal. His PvP is NOT terrible. You are not giving this guy enough credit for what he has been doing. Prior to his loss against Bisu, he was pretty much undefeated in MSL and doing excellent in Proleague, while Jaedong was busy losing to players like Sangho and Roro. And while I do agree Kal is inconsistent in general, his win verses Jaedong was closer to Jaedong playing horribly than Kal playing better than he usually does. Kal stepped up and beat Stork + Jaedong in _crucial_ ace matches. He deserves a lot of props for that.
Jangbi and Kal are both very good, and let's not label their PvP terrible. They are not. Sure, their PvP may not be as good compared to the other top Protoss players of this golden age of Toss such as BeSt, Stork, and Bisu, but they're still very solid. Both of these guys have been playing great, certainly better than Jaedong.
I haven't watched Flash's games so I won't comment on them.
In conclusion, I think Jangbi and Kal should be placed higher than Jaedong not because they are the best players around (I don't think they are better than they actually are) but because Jaedong has not been playing at the same level. Jangbi and Kal, on the other hand, have won crucial matches and been playing solidly for a while now.
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somehow i find that jaedong plays godly earlygame recently but lacks the lategame dominance he is known for. Hmm..
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Speaking of Jangbi, does anyone else think his road to the finals was a joke? I mean, Bisu had a pretty easy path, but Jangbi got to face Yarnc in two rounds. I guess Yarnc did beat Bisu back around when he had hurt has hand, but ehh.... that's about the best thing I can say about his ZvP.
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On November 24 2008 13:16 zer0das wrote:
Speaking of Jangbi, does anyone else think his road to the finals was a joke? I mean, Bisu had a pretty easy path, but Jangbi got to face Yarnc in two rounds. I guess Yarnc did beat Bisu back around when he had hurt has hand, but ehh.... that's about the best thing I can say about his ZvP.
yea but in what manner did he beat yarnc, like were they both playing horribly that time or were both playing amazingly
i have no clue seeing as i havent watched those games
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On November 24 2008 13:16 zer0das wrote:
Speaking of Jangbi, does anyone else think his road to the finals was a joke? I mean, Bisu had a pretty easy path, but Jangbi got to face Yarnc in two rounds. I guess Yarnc did beat Bisu back around when he had hurt has hand, but ehh.... that's about the best thing I can say about his ZvP.
To be fair he pretty much raped everyone on his road to the finals. Other than Kal, I don't think any of his games were even close. You could argue that he might not have been the 2nd best player, but he's definitely on par with Free, with Stork being the only unknown due to the OSL/WCG schedule conflicts.
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On November 24 2008 13:48 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2008 13:16 zer0das wrote:
Speaking of Jangbi, does anyone else think his road to the finals was a joke? I mean, Bisu had a pretty easy path, but Jangbi got to face Yarnc in two rounds. I guess Yarnc did beat Bisu back around when he had hurt has hand, but ehh.... that's about the best thing I can say about his ZvP. To be fair he pretty much raped everyone on his road to the finals. Other than Kal, I don't think any of his games were even close. You could argue that he might not have been the 2nd best player, but he's definitely on par with Free, with Stork being the only unknown due to the OSL/WCG schedule conflicts.
Im pretty sure that was luxury who beat Bisu. Yeah, he shouldve had to have played Flash in his group ro8, but he ended up crashing out to Yarnc.
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Ok I don't want to involve myself into this Jaedong discussion again between FS and oneother but let me just let you know that the FBH win over Jaedong DID involve cheese. Although it was not critical, it was cheese that disturbed his build timing and forced him to make early den and disturbed his mentality.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 24 2008 16:14 F13 wrote:
Ok I don't want to involve myself into this Jaedong discussion again between FS and oneother but let me just let you know that the FBH win over Jaedong DID involve cheese. Although it was not critical, it was cheese that disturbed his build timing and forced him to make early den and disturbed his mentality.
Okay then it was a failed cheese more than anything. It would not matter either way because FBH did not gain any advantage from it, so my argument stands. FBH planned to float and land it in JD's base, but got caught before it even finished building. It put Jaedong ahead. Sure, he had to make a hydra den, but who cares? He teched lair right away, while pumping a lot of drones. FBH, on the other hand, had slow expo, slow academy, slow rax, slow everything. Jaedong also gained a huge advantage by wiping out FBH's initial marine/medic force with lings, which leaves a nice timing for muta harassment. At this point, it was obvious Jaedong had a comfortable lead. Then JD did things he would have not done two months ago, just like he did in the game vs Kal. Under-performing.
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I still cant believe how FBH's army raped the second lingwave like that... it was seriously wierd. If that wave would have killed rines like the first one it would have been over right there.
I really thought JD would win that game, he simply played not so good that lategame.
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hehe
AnOth3rDAy = OneOther
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United States10774 Posts
*waits for ambit!ous1 to throw more childish, personal insults*
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United States10774 Posts
On November 24 2008 17:42 ambit!ous1 wrote:hehe AnOth3rDAy = OneOther
Wow, most coherent statement you have made so far in this thread!
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I just have to involve myself in this conversation again. I can accept putting Jangbi above Jaedong,because well,he was an MSL fianlist,lost due to bad luck,bla bla(bullshit,Bisu was just better than him),good in PL,still in Gom,stuff like that. Somehow I can even understand putting Flash above JD,because,well,he is more "consistent",but there is just no way Kal should be higher than JD. If you argue like this,that he should be above JD,because he beat him,than you should put Firebathero and even Backho above Kal,because they beat him. It is bullshit. Yes,Kal eat Jaedong once. He did that once in their MSL finals too,and after that,JD beat him three times. One game says nothing. I come again with the old clishe,if they would meet,Jaedong would own him. And who gives a shit if he wins more ace than JD. If you win before that,you don't have to play ace match. Beating Luxury is not impressive. Beating Jaedong was really impressive,but it's not enough to put him above Jaedong. Kal is not even close to hot. He can beat the best player in the world,but he is not dominating,not a champion. And I say my opinion about Bisu too. I'm even more biased towards Bisu than I am towards JD,and I fucking hate Stork. But Bisu didn't dominate this month as Stork did in the last month,and it is not Stork's fault,that did OSL ended sooner,than the MSL. How can you know,that if the OSL would still be going,Stork wouldn't be dominating it? And Stork does well in gom and pl,so I see no reason just yet to put Bisu above Stork. I really hope,that the next month will be something else tho.
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EPT
