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That's entirely possible and I'd personaly love to see Bisu PvZ in later stages of some tournament. One of the most beautiful match ups, it's a shame he was forced to double PvT with Flash.
However he did meat Flash and he was eliminated. Speculation about what would happen if he didn't are pointless. At the end of the day, there are people in MSL finals and people who has to settle for PL.
Bisu ranking should not be based on some imaginary wins in MSL which he doesn't have.
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On May 27 2011 01:01 Dakkas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 22:37 L0thar wrote: Sorry, but If you can't tell the difference between "being MSL finalist" and "won a game, still get eliminated form the MSL" by yourself, I probably won't be able to explain it either way. You can explain it by being in a group with the 2 best players in the world. Not getting further into the MSL is not a negative on Bisu's list because it's entirely possible Flash or Jaedong couldn't have got through
Wait, so you are saying that since Flash and Jaedong could have theoretically lost to Bisu they should be below him?
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In all fairness, Bisu isnt an MSL finalist or semifinalist. So Im hesitant to put him as #1 or above the others. But him getting knocked down isnt anything against his skill (we all know, or would assume, that Bisu could have gotten very far this MSL if it wasnt for the Group of Death).
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On May 26 2011 23:50 Mumei wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 22:51 Mortality wrote: Not sure I want to see Zero above the Dong even with this win. But Dong really has had a terrible month. 6-8 since last PR with elimination in his statistically best match-up by a player historically weak in it.
By ELO, Zero is now #6. Jaedong is still #3, but if Hydra can pull a win over Flash at all then he will surpass JD. If Hydra loses 2-3 to Flash it will be very, very close. I wouldn't call Jaedong's vZ his best these days, at least not in the last 6 - 7 months. It not being up-to-snuff has caused of him to lose two MSL semi-finals, and he also got knocked out of the last OSL partially due to an awful ZvZ against Hogil. And I don't think anyone would argue that his vT is essentially his only match-up where he still looks consistently like his old self. I don't know why he can't seem to translate his general ZvZ dominance to Bo5. According to Liquipedia, he's 3 - 1 in ZvZ Bo5 through 2010; this brings him to 3 - 3 through 2011. He doesn't seem to have a problem with Bo3 - he's 20 - 3 in ZvZ Bo3 through 2010 - but it just seems like his opponents rise to the occasion when facing him in Bo5, and he... doesn't.
I hear ya, which is why I said "statistically best," although if you monkey with the time periods I think maybe his recent ZvT is statistically higher, but you just can't argue with 75+% for years without fail. His loss to Calm I understood: it was Calm playing incredibly smart SC and winning the battle of preparation. His loss to Hydra I sort of understood: last season was really bad for JD and Hydra demonstrated first rate control and understanding of timings. I have not seen the series against Zero yet but... to say this was an unexpected result is an understatement.
On May 27 2011 01:47 vishrut wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 01:35 L0thar wrote: Bisu in last years proved that he has problems getting from group stages in general, not just when paired with Flash or JD. He didn't *play* (much less win) a BO5 in ages.
I seriously can't believe I have to argue for MSL finalists being ahead from someone who got eliminated from group stages (like times and times before).
Top spots of PR are reserved for players who have great PL *and* individual leagues performance (if there are some). Bisu position last month is defendable, because he was crucial player in Winners League finals and that's gotta count for something. But this month he has done nothing special.
Just go and check Flash and Zero performance in PL. Flash is undefeated since last PR and Zero actually head on beat Bisu in their last (less than month old) match. Why on Earth would anybody put Bisu ahead of these two is completely beyond me. Bisu was busy slumping hardcore so saying that he didnt do anything last year is pointless since the bisu of this year is completely different from the bisu of last year. i would think that bisu would be favored in a bo5 against zero but it would probably be close. Also the only reason bisu is not in this zerg msl is because of flash. This is the first starleague since he has recovered his form and i think he would have gone far if he didnt meet flash
Zero happens to be exceptionally strong against Bisu, 4-3 lifetime with solid wins. Zero plays very smart SC and he doesn't allow Bisu to spread him out the same way other Zergs do. This means that I would not be so quick to favor Bisu over Zero, but it also means that ranking Zero ahead of Bisu on the grounds of winning a bo1 is even more silly than usual.
The same arguments that put Flash in #1 while he was out of SL last season argue that Bisu should be #2 right now behind only Flash who is posting comparable PL results at the moment and doing better in SL. That is my thought.
Zero... I love his smart play and I love that he's finally in a finals and I hope he wins. BUT... I'm hesitant to put him in the top 2 when his play is so erratic. On his best days, yeah, fucking hell, he's S-class no questions asked (at least in ZvT and ZvP). On his worst days... well...
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In times like these I feel confident in my choice of preferring the ELO as my primary skill measurement instead of a few select people`s subjective opinions.
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On May 27 2011 03:41 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 23:50 Mumei wrote:On May 26 2011 22:51 Mortality wrote: Not sure I want to see Zero above the Dong even with this win. But Dong really has had a terrible month. 6-8 since last PR with elimination in his statistically best match-up by a player historically weak in it.
By ELO, Zero is now #6. Jaedong is still #3, but if Hydra can pull a win over Flash at all then he will surpass JD. If Hydra loses 2-3 to Flash it will be very, very close. I wouldn't call Jaedong's vZ his best these days, at least not in the last 6 - 7 months. It not being up-to-snuff has caused of him to lose two MSL semi-finals, and he also got knocked out of the last OSL partially due to an awful ZvZ against Hogil. And I don't think anyone would argue that his vT is essentially his only match-up where he still looks consistently like his old self. I don't know why he can't seem to translate his general ZvZ dominance to Bo5. According to Liquipedia, he's 3 - 1 in ZvZ Bo5 through 2010; this brings him to 3 - 3 through 2011. He doesn't seem to have a problem with Bo3 - he's 20 - 3 in ZvZ Bo3 through 2010 - but it just seems like his opponents rise to the occasion when facing him in Bo5, and he... doesn't. I hear ya, which is why I said "statistically best," although if you monkey with the time periods I think maybe his recent ZvT is statistically higher, but you just can't argue with 75+% for years without fail. His loss to Calm I understood: it was Calm playing incredibly smart SC and winning the battle of preparation. His loss to Hydra I sort of understood: last season was really bad for JD and Hydra demonstrated first rate control and understanding of timings. I have not seen the series against Zero yet but... to say this was an unexpected result is an understatement. Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 01:47 vishrut wrote:On May 27 2011 01:35 L0thar wrote: Bisu in last years proved that he has problems getting from group stages in general, not just when paired with Flash or JD. He didn't *play* (much less win) a BO5 in ages.
I seriously can't believe I have to argue for MSL finalists being ahead from someone who got eliminated from group stages (like times and times before).
Top spots of PR are reserved for players who have great PL *and* individual leagues performance (if there are some). Bisu position last month is defendable, because he was crucial player in Winners League finals and that's gotta count for something. But this month he has done nothing special.
Just go and check Flash and Zero performance in PL. Flash is undefeated since last PR and Zero actually head on beat Bisu in their last (less than month old) match. Why on Earth would anybody put Bisu ahead of these two is completely beyond me. Bisu was busy slumping hardcore so saying that he didnt do anything last year is pointless since the bisu of this year is completely different from the bisu of last year. i would think that bisu would be favored in a bo5 against zero but it would probably be close. Also the only reason bisu is not in this zerg msl is because of flash. This is the first starleague since he has recovered his form and i think he would have gone far if he didnt meet flash Zero happens to be exceptionally strong against Bisu, 4-3 lifetime with solid wins. Zero plays very smart SC and he doesn't allow Bisu to spread him out the same way other Zergs do. This means that I would not be so quick to favor Bisu over Zero, but it also means that ranking Zero ahead of Bisu on the grounds of winning a bo1 is even more silly than usual. The same arguments that put Flash in #1 while he was out of SL last season argue that Bisu should be #2 right now behind only Flash who is posting comparable PL results at the moment and doing better in SL. That is my thought. Zero... I love his smart play and I love that he's finally in a finals and I hope he wins. BUT... I'm hesitant to put him in the top 2 when his play is so erratic. On his best days, yeah, fucking hell, he's S-class no questions asked (at least in ZvT and ZvP). On his worst days... well...
idk man, if Zero wins the MSL, I think he deserves #1 PR.
That's just my opinion though. Taking out Jaedong in Zero's weakest matchup.... and then taking down Flash/Hydra... that's really impressive.
Note that the last PR was made 5/9/11, so the Zero-Bisu game was LAST month, not this one. This month Zero is 8-4, but 3 of those losses are in MSL series that he won anyway. And he's played almost exclusively ZvZ which is classically his weakest matchup
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Zero deserves no.1 at this rate. He just beat the no.2/no.1 ZvZ in the world (which is his worst MU) and he could very easily take the MSL at this point.
(Lets not forget, Zero is like the 1st zerg to beat Bisu in a macro game in months)
Dude is phenomenal. Unless, he gets demolished in the MSL finals I don't see how you could justify him not being up there
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how far will jaedong drop?
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
Silence of the lambs.
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
And I'm going to wait for Flash vs Hydra.
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United States10328 Posts
On May 27 2011 07:31 flamewheel wrote:Silence of the lambs.
i don't even...
other pertinent questions: will mind, soulkey, movie, horang2, leta??? fill the lower reaches of PR? or fbh / iris? or even best (omg best... and jangbi... and hoejja... are winning games o_O)?
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I just ask that ZerO not be #1 because that would guarantee he loses the MSL.
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On May 27 2011 01:57 L0thar wrote: That's entirely possible and I'd personaly love to see Bisu PvZ in later stages of some tournament. One of the most beautiful match ups, it's a shame he was forced to double PvT with Flash.
However he did meat Flash and he was eliminated. Speculation about what would happen if he didn't are pointless. At the end of the day, there are people in MSL finals and people who has to settle for PL.
Bisu ranking should not be based on some imaginary wins in MSL which he doesn't have. His Ranking would be based on him being an absolute beast in PL, virtually unstoppable in PvZ and PvT if your not named Flash, having the second highest ELO with a 70 point drop to 3rd place JD. Closing in on 60 PL wins, and in general playing some of the best StarCraft of anyone these days. Imaginary MSL games got nothing to do with it.
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On May 27 2011 03:41 Mortality wrote:I hear ya, which is why I said "statistically best," although if you monkey with the time periods I think maybe his recent ZvT is statistically higher, but you just can't argue with 75+% for years without fail.
Well, for just this year, which we're now approaching the halfway mark of, he's at 63.64% (42 - 24) overall. But when you separate that out by match-up, you'll see the disparity: In vT he's at 79.17% (19 - 5), in vZ he's at 56.52% (13 - 10), and in vP he's at 52.63% (10 - 9).
His vT is all that's keeping his overall record looking respectable, though still well below his usual standards, instead of looking like a slump. As a fan, it's been frustrating seeing him reach what could be new heights in his ZvT only for him to seemingly lose his dominance in the other match-ups. He was at just over 80% in vP last year, and 76% in vZ, and now he's barely staying over 50%.
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On May 27 2011 08:52 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 01:57 L0thar wrote: That's entirely possible and I'd personaly love to see Bisu PvZ in later stages of some tournament. One of the most beautiful match ups, it's a shame he was forced to double PvT with Flash.
However he did meat Flash and he was eliminated. Speculation about what would happen if he didn't are pointless. At the end of the day, there are people in MSL finals and people who has to settle for PL.
Bisu ranking should not be based on some imaginary wins in MSL which he doesn't have. His Ranking would be based on him being an absolute beast in PL, virtually unstoppable in PvZ and PvT if your not named Flash, having the second highest ELO with a 70 point drop to 3rd place JD. Closing in on 60 PL wins, and in general playing some of the best StarCraft of anyone these days. Imaginary MSL games got nothing to do with it.
Sounds nice...in a vacuum, without comparing him to other players. Let's take a look at them:
Flash - cruising PL, MSL semifinalist, the player directly responsible for delegating Bisu to PL duties only. Zero - stellar in PL, MSL finalist, the player who actually beat Bisu head on the last time they met in PL, in Bisu strongest matchups, no less.
Why nobody reads what I'm writing over and over? Zero and Flash achieved much more than Bisu last month AND they beat him last time they played together. No way you can justify putting him over them. Every single post directed at me failed to address both of these point. I don't care how well does Bisu perform in PL when there are people who are performing almost just as well, beat the hell out of him when they played together and show significant individual leagues results.
Seriously guys, you are all acting like I wanna drop Bisu from the ranking altogether lol. I merely stated that Flash, Zero and maybe Hydra (if he win against Flash) should be ahead of him, which would put Bisu on nice 3rd or 4th place. Exactly a place where player who has only one league to train for should belong.
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On May 27 2011 08:29 VGhost wrote: I just ask that ZerO not be #1 because that would guarantee he loses the MSL.
Yeah, seriously. It's like Konadora curse 2.0
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On May 27 2011 07:41 flamewheel wrote: And I'm going to wait for Flash vs Hydra.
Good choice.
If ZerO wins MSL next month I look forward to him being #1. And he should be fairly high this month, though not #1 (whoever wins FvH should take it imo).
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At this point, the ranking would be 1/2. ZerO/Flash 3/4 Bisu/Flash and then 5 being Hydra and then other players who have a good reccord this month.
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On May 27 2011 09:44 Mumei wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 03:41 Mortality wrote:I hear ya, which is why I said "statistically best," although if you monkey with the time periods I think maybe his recent ZvT is statistically higher, but you just can't argue with 75+% for years without fail. Well, for just this year, which we're now approaching the halfway mark of, he's at 63.64% (42 - 24) overall. But when you separate that out by match-up, you'll see the disparity: In vT he's at 79.17% (19 - 5), in vZ he's at 56.52% (13 - 10), and in vP he's at 52.63% (10 - 9). His vT is all that's keeping his overall record looking respectable, though still well below his usual standards, instead of looking like a slump. As a fan, it's been frustrating seeing him reach what could be new heights in his ZvT only for him to seemingly lose his dominance in the other match-ups. He was at just over 80% in vP last year, and 76% in vZ, and now he's barely staying over 50%.
His ZvT record is actually way above his usual, but as I've said before, I really want to see those high stakes matches before I say this is the best Dong's ZvT has ever been (in relative terms).
Regarding ZvZ, 13-10 takes into account last night, no? Going into last night would anyone have suspected JD at 63% wins until then in ZvZ in 2011, averaging 75+% over a many year period, to fall to Zero? If you asked me I would have said his ZvZ stats were lower than usual because he had been struggling a bit last season, but that struggle wasn't limited -- in my viewpoint -- to ZvZ.
On May 27 2011 06:04 xxpack09 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 03:41 Mortality wrote:On May 26 2011 23:50 Mumei wrote:On May 26 2011 22:51 Mortality wrote: Not sure I want to see Zero above the Dong even with this win. But Dong really has had a terrible month. 6-8 since last PR with elimination in his statistically best match-up by a player historically weak in it.
By ELO, Zero is now #6. Jaedong is still #3, but if Hydra can pull a win over Flash at all then he will surpass JD. If Hydra loses 2-3 to Flash it will be very, very close. I wouldn't call Jaedong's vZ his best these days, at least not in the last 6 - 7 months. It not being up-to-snuff has caused of him to lose two MSL semi-finals, and he also got knocked out of the last OSL partially due to an awful ZvZ against Hogil. And I don't think anyone would argue that his vT is essentially his only match-up where he still looks consistently like his old self. I don't know why he can't seem to translate his general ZvZ dominance to Bo5. According to Liquipedia, he's 3 - 1 in ZvZ Bo5 through 2010; this brings him to 3 - 3 through 2011. He doesn't seem to have a problem with Bo3 - he's 20 - 3 in ZvZ Bo3 through 2010 - but it just seems like his opponents rise to the occasion when facing him in Bo5, and he... doesn't. I hear ya, which is why I said "statistically best," although if you monkey with the time periods I think maybe his recent ZvT is statistically higher, but you just can't argue with 75+% for years without fail. His loss to Calm I understood: it was Calm playing incredibly smart SC and winning the battle of preparation. His loss to Hydra I sort of understood: last season was really bad for JD and Hydra demonstrated first rate control and understanding of timings. I have not seen the series against Zero yet but... to say this was an unexpected result is an understatement. On May 27 2011 01:47 vishrut wrote:On May 27 2011 01:35 L0thar wrote: Bisu in last years proved that he has problems getting from group stages in general, not just when paired with Flash or JD. He didn't *play* (much less win) a BO5 in ages.
I seriously can't believe I have to argue for MSL finalists being ahead from someone who got eliminated from group stages (like times and times before).
Top spots of PR are reserved for players who have great PL *and* individual leagues performance (if there are some). Bisu position last month is defendable, because he was crucial player in Winners League finals and that's gotta count for something. But this month he has done nothing special.
Just go and check Flash and Zero performance in PL. Flash is undefeated since last PR and Zero actually head on beat Bisu in their last (less than month old) match. Why on Earth would anybody put Bisu ahead of these two is completely beyond me. Bisu was busy slumping hardcore so saying that he didnt do anything last year is pointless since the bisu of this year is completely different from the bisu of last year. i would think that bisu would be favored in a bo5 against zero but it would probably be close. Also the only reason bisu is not in this zerg msl is because of flash. This is the first starleague since he has recovered his form and i think he would have gone far if he didnt meet flash Zero happens to be exceptionally strong against Bisu, 4-3 lifetime with solid wins. Zero plays very smart SC and he doesn't allow Bisu to spread him out the same way other Zergs do. This means that I would not be so quick to favor Bisu over Zero, but it also means that ranking Zero ahead of Bisu on the grounds of winning a bo1 is even more silly than usual. The same arguments that put Flash in #1 while he was out of SL last season argue that Bisu should be #2 right now behind only Flash who is posting comparable PL results at the moment and doing better in SL. That is my thought. Zero... I love his smart play and I love that he's finally in a finals and I hope he wins. BUT... I'm hesitant to put him in the top 2 when his play is so erratic. On his best days, yeah, fucking hell, he's S-class no questions asked (at least in ZvT and ZvP). On his worst days... well... idk man, if Zero wins the MSL, I think he deserves #1 PR. That's just my opinion though. Taking out Jaedong in Zero's weakest matchup.... and then taking down Flash/Hydra... that's really impressive. Note that the last PR was made 5/9/11, so the Zero-Bisu game was LAST month, not this one. This month Zero is 8-4, but 3 of those losses are in MSL series that he won anyway. And he's played almost exclusively ZvZ which is classically his weakest matchup
MSL finals will be after the end of this PR period. And the Zero-Bisu game was recent enough to be discussion relevant.
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On May 27 2011 02:19 HopLight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 01:01 Dakkas wrote:On May 26 2011 22:37 L0thar wrote: Sorry, but If you can't tell the difference between "being MSL finalist" and "won a game, still get eliminated form the MSL" by yourself, I probably won't be able to explain it either way. You can explain it by being in a group with the 2 best players in the world. Not getting further into the MSL is not a negative on Bisu's list because it's entirely possible Flash or Jaedong couldn't have got through Wait, so you are saying that since Flash and Jaedong could have theoretically lost to Bisu they should be below him?
No, I never said that. My point is that Bisu not making past the group stages is not something to hold against him
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