Because 2 ZvZ build-order losses mean so much? It's not even like Flash or Bisu are undefeated this month either. So who else is a contender for #1 then?

Musou

1375 Posts

February 22 2011 12:08 GMT

#425

JD overcame BO losses during his peak. The fact that Hydra couldn't says something, especially when his opponents were Killer and Action who have historically not had great ZvZ. Flash has only lost 1 game to Stork with a sniping build specifically prepared for one map. Bisu lost two straight up games against Hydra and Hiya. I'd say it's a tossup between Hydra and Flash, with Hydra getting extra credit for winning MSL, but losing credit for immediately losing when all he's practiced is ZvZ recently, and Flash getting credit for losing only because it's Stork and it was a snipe.

revy

United States1524 Posts

February 22 2011 12:21 GMT

#426

On February 21 2011 09:38 L0thar wrote:

Show nested quote +

Oov is the best finals player because he did what nobody else has done yet. If somebody goes and win 10 finals out of 10 in brutal, dominat fashion, Oov won't be the best finals player anymore. The same goes for Nada's accomplishment. People can hold titles in retrospective but only so far.

And how is JD the strongest series player? Have you forgotten how Flash has always had his number in BO3? Always! It's a series too. The "Jaedong is the strongest series player" is absurdly strong statement, if you rephrase it "Jaedong was for a long time the strongest BO5 player", I've no problem with that.

I think you can kind of sum up the strength of JD's series play in this single fact:

JD hadn't lost a game 5 of a BO5 until Flash beat him in BigFile.

Flash is certainly making a case for being the strongest series player ever but I don't think he's there yet.

Holgerius

Sweden16951 Posts

February 22 2011 12:38 GMT

#427

Hydra is certainly still a very very hot candidate to take the spot, I'm not saying anything else, but it's not a 100% guaranteed thing now, which it pretty much could've been with convincing play in the post-MSL WL games . It's also pretty interesting how few ZvTs Hydra has played recently. 23 games since that loss against Bogus. Considering how relatively new he is as a top player that makes it quite hard to actually make a decent judgement of how good he actually is at the MU.

Flash is still looking almost impossible to beat. The loss against Stork hurts him of course, but it was a nicely executed one-off super cheese by another top player.

Things would've been easier if we had gotten a Hydra vs Flash game today, but Action decided to ruin that for us.

The current #2 is also doing pretty well right now, 5-1 in February.

Goragoth

New Zealand1065 Posts

February 22 2011 13:06 GMT

#428

On February 22 2011 21:08 Musou wrote:
JD overcame BO losses during his peak. The fact that Hydra couldn't says something, especially when his opponents were Killer and Action who have historically not had great ZvZ. Flash has only lost 1 game to Stork with a sniping build specifically prepared for one map. Bisu lost two straight up games against Hydra and Hiya. I'd say it's a tossup between Hydra and Flash, with Hydra getting extra credit for winning MSL, but losing credit for immediately losing when all he's practiced is ZvZ recently, and Flash getting credit for losing only because it's Stork and it was a snipe.

Jaedong certainly did overcome BO losses at his peak, but even then only sometimes. It's not like he did it all the time. His strong ZvZ streak came mostly from winning all games where he had the BO advantage or mirror BO, as well as the occasional game where he had the worse BO. He also had a knack for picking the right BO (this is an important part of ZvZ, winning the mindgame before the match even starts). I might be wrong since I don't actually remember every single game and going back to check would be a lot of work, but I'm pretty sure that the JvZ OMG BO-loss reversed type of games were actually quite rare.

mnesthes

5433 Posts

February 22 2011 14:05 GMT

#429

I think Action should make the list next month. Or at least shoutout/ CBNC. >_>

Lightwip

United States5497 Posts

February 22 2011 14:08 GMT

#430

On February 22 2011 11:26 Lightwip wrote:
Fantasy is an interesting person to place. He has 1 win, which is an impressive team save in ace, but on the other hand he doesn't really get a chance to play because Bisu is too good.

Perhaps this AK is proof enough that he doesn't really need to drop.

Fishmalk

74 Posts

February 22 2011 15:44 GMT

#431

On February 22 2011 23:08 Lightwip wrote:

Show nested quote +

Perhaps this AK is proof enough that he doesn't really need to drop.

Allkilling Fox isn't much of an accomplishment.

lastmotion

368 Posts

February 22 2011 16:57 GMT

#432

I love how Flash fans try to discredit Hydra's performance so that they can try to make Flash #1. Hydra has been on fire and won MSL, and lost 2 ZvZ (which can happen to anyone looking at how unstable ZvZ matchup is)

Unless Hydra goes on a losing streak, I think it's pretty dumb to argue otherwise

TwoToneTerran

United States8841 Posts

February 22 2011 18:00 GMT

#433

If you try to say losing a couple of ZvZs isn't that big a deal, then winning them isn't either, which is what he did to win his MSL. You can't have it both ways. That said, I don't think it matters that much. He played just fine in the games he lost and that's what matters.

nodule

Canada931 Posts

February 22 2011 18:04 GMT

#434

although he did need to win those ZvZ's against Jaedong

TwoToneTerran

United States8841 Posts

February 22 2011 18:27 GMT

#435

On February 23 2011 03:04 nodule wrote:
although he did need to win those ZvZ's against Jaedong

And Great, what's your point? If you're saying the matchup is the issue then the players obviously don't matter. That's why it's a dumb argument when clearly that isn't the case. It took something special to beat Jaedong in that matchup, it's something much much less special to lose the ones he did in WL. A double standard and false dichotomy in one.

lastmotion

368 Posts

February 22 2011 20:31 GMT

#436

On February 23 2011 03:00 TwoToneTerran wrote:
If you try to say losing a couple of ZvZs isn't that big a deal, then winning them isn't either, which is what he did to win his MSL. You can't have it both ways. That said, I don't think it matters that much. He played just fine in the games he lost and that's what matters.

Losing a matchup due to its unstable nature does not equate into a lesser valued matchup. I see your point about winning it might be due to the condition of the matchup as well and I can agree with that. However, the ZvZs that Hydra won were BO5, while the ones he lost were single games. Because BO5 means more games played, it reduces the likelihood that a player beat another player simply due to micro-luck factors (because that luck factor needs to happen in all games of that set). Basically winning a BO5 ZvZ shows more skill than you would if you won 1 game of ZvZ. I can imagine a C-Noob pssibly taking a single game from JD with a lucky BO, but I can't imagine that same player taking a BO5 from JD.

TwoToneTerran

United States8841 Posts

February 22 2011 20:56 GMT

#437

You made the exact same point I did. I was railing on people for picking and choosing what was important and using ZvZ's nature as their springboard for nonsense. ZvZ is a crapshoot of luck and skill, not one or the other, and you can't exclude one when it favors your point. Hydra was both lucky and good when he beat Jaedong -- he was both unlucky and, at the very least, mediocre when he lost his ZvZs. People want to say he either blew it or is a hero and it doesn't matter, when in reality it's more in the middle.

I don't think he played particularly bad enough in the games he lost to think he's either bad or in a slump, but he's not impressing anyone at the very least.

agarangu

Chile274 Posts

February 22 2011 21:51 GMT

#438

Well, who is the best player nowadays?
Progamers and coaches dream about him before a game.
He induces risky strategies, discourages playing standard .
He can disturb the mind of a player by just sitting in the chair.
When his first workers start mining, he's already winning.
When he's losing, he makes his opponent hesitate.
He faces the best players like they are average.
He ends winning streaks and doesn't care about momentum.
He helps his teammates while sitting on the bench.
He's name is Lee Young Ho, AKA Flash.

Lightwip

United States5497 Posts

February 22 2011 22:43 GMT

#439

On February 23 2011 00:44 Fishmalk wrote:

Show nested quote +

Allkilling Fox isn't much of an accomplishment.

Even AKing ACE is a decent accomplishment.
But considering the unimpressive performances of Stork and Jaedong right now, I think Fantasy deserves #4. Bisu/Flash/Hydra for #1/2/3 in some order. Not sure who should be higher between Stork and Jaedong.

Vasoline73

United States7747 Posts

February 22 2011 22:46 GMT

#440

Jaedong beat ZvZ BO advantages when other zergs sucked at ZvZ. The matchup has evolved a lot since then and so has muta/ling control by progamers. While I don't particularly think Hydra should be number one nor that his loses in ZvZ shouldn't count against him (they should), to say "JD was way better in his prime" like it should mean anything is stupid.