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On February 23 2011 01:57 lastmotion wrote:
I love how Flash fans try to discredit Hydra's performance so that they can try to make Flash #1. Hydra has been on fire and won MSL, and lost 2 ZvZ (which can happen to anyone looking at how unstable ZvZ matchup is)
Unless Hydra goes on a losing streak, I think it's pretty dumb to argue otherwise
Performance/statistics aren't the only thing that matters.
Who do you honestly believe is the best player right now? If you bet your life on a Bo5 who would you choose? You'd honestly pick Hydra over Flash?
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On February 23 2011 07:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 01:57 lastmotion wrote:
I love how Flash fans try to discredit Hydra's performance so that they can try to make Flash #1. Hydra has been on fire and won MSL, and lost 2 ZvZ (which can happen to anyone looking at how unstable ZvZ matchup is)
Unless Hydra goes on a losing streak, I think it's pretty dumb to argue otherwise Performance/statistics aren't the only thing that matters. Who do you honestly believe is the best player right now? If you bet your life on a Bo5 who would you choose? You'd honestly pick Hydra over Flash?
And we go back to how bias (on who you "think" is more favored) should weigh more than an entire tournament run? Results should matter more instead of these "what if" scenarios.
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On February 23 2011 07:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 01:57 lastmotion wrote:
I love how Flash fans try to discredit Hydra's performance so that they can try to make Flash #1. Hydra has been on fire and won MSL, and lost 2 ZvZ (which can happen to anyone looking at how unstable ZvZ matchup is)
Unless Hydra goes on a losing streak, I think it's pretty dumb to argue otherwise Performance/statistics aren't the only thing that matters. Who do you honestly believe is the best player right now? If you bet your life on a Bo5 who would you choose? You'd honestly pick Hydra over Flash?
If we went solely on that Flash would have been #1 even when he was dropping out of individual leagues. Who's the biggest name Flash beat this month? Baby and Mind.
Who did Hydra beat? Bisu and Jaedong.
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On February 23 2011 08:30 FakePlasticLove wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 07:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 23 2011 01:57 lastmotion wrote:
I love how Flash fans try to discredit Hydra's performance so that they can try to make Flash #1. Hydra has been on fire and won MSL, and lost 2 ZvZ (which can happen to anyone looking at how unstable ZvZ matchup is)
Unless Hydra goes on a losing streak, I think it's pretty dumb to argue otherwise Performance/statistics aren't the only thing that matters. Who do you honestly believe is the best player right now? If you bet your life on a Bo5 who would you choose? You'd honestly pick Hydra over Flash? If we went solely on that Flash would have been #1 even when he was dropping out of individual leagues. Who's the biggest name Flash beat this month? Baby and Mind. Who did Hydra beat? Bisu and Jaedong.
On the other hand, Flash has only lost to Stork this month, against an obscene all-in. Hydra lost to killer and action.
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Russian Federation327 Posts
Who's the biggest name Flash beat this month? Baby and Mind.
Who did Hydra beat? Bisu and Jaedong.
Such comparison is wrong. It is not like Flash has a chance to beat Bisu or JD. They played different games on different maps, you can compare stats in such direct way.
The idea of PR is to take monthly performance data and make best guess. The more games played, ( vs different races and players of different calibers) - the more certainty you can put into estimated value.
Currently Hydra is a dark horse, his performance unstable, and it is hard to figure out expectation value of his skill.
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
lol this is gonna suck again
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On February 23 2011 09:04 Yodo wrote:Show nested quote +Who's the biggest name Flash beat this month? Baby and Mind.
Who did Hydra beat? Bisu and Jaedong. Such comparison is wrong. It is not like Flash has a chance to beat Bisu or JD. They played different games on different maps, you can compare stats in such direct way. The idea of PR is to take monthly performance data and make best guess. The more games played, ( vs different races and players of different calibers) - the more certainty you can put into estimated value. Currently Hydra is a dark horse, his performance unstable, and it is hard to figure out expectation value of his skill.
Well yeah but you cant say hypothetically Flash would have won against Bisu and Jaedong and discredit the fact Hydra accomplished far more than Flash.
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On February 23 2011 09:20 FakePlasticLove wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 09:04 Yodo wrote:Who's the biggest name Flash beat this month? Baby and Mind.
Who did Hydra beat? Bisu and Jaedong. Such comparison is wrong. It is not like Flash has a chance to beat Bisu or JD. They played different games on different maps, you can compare stats in such direct way. The idea of PR is to take monthly performance data and make best guess. The more games played, ( vs different races and players of different calibers) - the more certainty you can put into estimated value. Currently Hydra is a dark horse, his performance unstable, and it is hard to figure out expectation value of his skill. Well yeah but you cant say hypothetically Flash would have won against Bisu and Jaedong and discredit the fact Hydra accomplished far more than Flash.
But the rank is meant to say who is the best. Accomplishments are helpful when trying to decide, but I don't think you could say that Fantasy and hydra are better that Flash right now.
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On February 23 2011 09:48 agarangu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 09:20 FakePlasticLove wrote:On February 23 2011 09:04 Yodo wrote:Who's the biggest name Flash beat this month? Baby and Mind.
Who did Hydra beat? Bisu and Jaedong. Such comparison is wrong. It is not like Flash has a chance to beat Bisu or JD. They played different games on different maps, you can compare stats in such direct way. The idea of PR is to take monthly performance data and make best guess. The more games played, ( vs different races and players of different calibers) - the more certainty you can put into estimated value. Currently Hydra is a dark horse, his performance unstable, and it is hard to figure out expectation value of his skill. Well yeah but you cant say hypothetically Flash would have won against Bisu and Jaedong and discredit the fact Hydra accomplished far more than Flash. But the rank is meant to say who is the best. Accomplishments are helpful when trying to decide, but I don't think you could say that Fantasy and hydra are better that Flash right now.
Yes I can! Fantasy > Flash right now and Hydra is just riding the golden curse, he'll bounce back right up!
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On February 23 2011 09:51 Xiphos wrote:
Fantasy > Flash right now
I think you'll find that a vast majority of all people of this site would disagree with that.
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On February 23 2011 09:51 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 09:48 agarangu wrote:On February 23 2011 09:20 FakePlasticLove wrote:On February 23 2011 09:04 Yodo wrote:Who's the biggest name Flash beat this month? Baby and Mind.
Who did Hydra beat? Bisu and Jaedong. Such comparison is wrong. It is not like Flash has a chance to beat Bisu or JD. They played different games on different maps, you can compare stats in such direct way. The idea of PR is to take monthly performance data and make best guess. The more games played, ( vs different races and players of different calibers) - the more certainty you can put into estimated value. Currently Hydra is a dark horse, his performance unstable, and it is hard to figure out expectation value of his skill. Well yeah but you cant say hypothetically Flash would have won against Bisu and Jaedong and discredit the fact Hydra accomplished far more than Flash. But the rank is meant to say who is the best. Accomplishments are helpful when trying to decide, but I don't think you could say that Fantasy and hydra are better that Flash right now. Yes I can! Fantasy > Flash right now and Hydra is just riding the golden curse, he'll bounce back right up!
i see...
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On February 23 2011 10:50 Holgerius wrote:I think you'll find that a vast majority of all people of this site would disagree with that.
You have to admit it, Fantasy is doing SOO much better than Flash. He just won a freaken GOLD at OSL a FREAKEN gold! AND that AK, oh boy don't get me started!
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On February 23 2011 09:16 flamewheel wrote:
lol this is gonna suck again
Thanks for taking this hit for us so that we can get more out of BW than just Flash>JD 3 times in a row.
Hmm, this PR looks harder to make than I originally thought...
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On February 23 2011 08:28 Evs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 07:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 23 2011 01:57 lastmotion wrote:
I love how Flash fans try to discredit Hydra's performance so that they can try to make Flash #1. Hydra has been on fire and won MSL, and lost 2 ZvZ (which can happen to anyone looking at how unstable ZvZ matchup is)
Unless Hydra goes on a losing streak, I think it's pretty dumb to argue otherwise Performance/statistics aren't the only thing that matters. Who do you honestly believe is the best player right now? If you bet your life on a Bo5 who would you choose? You'd honestly pick Hydra over Flash? And we go back to how bias (on who you "think" is more favored) should weigh more than an entire tournament run? Results should matter more instead of these "what if" scenarios.
No but if the power rank was based on statistics then it could be generated by a computer/algorithim. It isn't, it's based on quality of gameplay and a subjective feeling of "power" that a player carries.
On February 23 2011 08:30 FakePlasticLove wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 07:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 23 2011 01:57 lastmotion wrote:
I love how Flash fans try to discredit Hydra's performance so that they can try to make Flash #1. Hydra has been on fire and won MSL, and lost 2 ZvZ (which can happen to anyone looking at how unstable ZvZ matchup is)
Unless Hydra goes on a losing streak, I think it's pretty dumb to argue otherwise Performance/statistics aren't the only thing that matters. Who do you honestly believe is the best player right now? If you bet your life on a Bo5 who would you choose? You'd honestly pick Hydra over Flash? If we went solely on that Flash would have been #1 even when he was dropping out of individual leagues. Who's the biggest name Flash beat this month? Baby and Mind. Who did Hydra beat? Bisu and Jaedong.
Of course statistics should be considered. Flash had a beastly month statistically. It has to go both ways, you can't consider only subjective game quality and you can't consider only statistical accomplishment.
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On February 23 2011 09:16 flamewheel wrote:
lol this is gonna suck again
Well look on the bright side. You can probably eliminate Stork and Jaedong from consideration for #1.
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Flash: 6-1 overall, 0-1 vs top 10
Fantasy: 5-1 overall, 0-0 vs top 10
Stork: 3-3 overall, 1-1 vs top 10
Bisu: 7-2 overall, 1-1 vs top 10
Jaedong: 5-6 overall, 3-4 vs top 10
Hydra: 9-5 overall, 4-2 vs top 10
ZerO: 5-5 overall, 1-0 vs top 10
Snow: 2-2 overall, 0-1 vs top 10
Bogus: 1-2 overall, 0-0 vs top 10
Violet: get well soon!
Others:
All-Kills or 3-Kills:
none not on top 10
Individual Leagues:
great: 5-6, 4-4 vs top 10
High Elo:
Light: 3-2, 1-0 vs top 10
Sea: 4-2, 1-1 vs top 10
Baby: 2-2, 1-2 vs top 10
Stats: 2-1, 1-0 vs top 10
Kal: 3-2, 0-0 vs top 10
My thoughts:
1. Flash
2. fantasy
3. Bisu
4. Hydra
5. Stork
6. Jaedong
7. ZerO
8. Kal (currently 3-killing ACE)
9. Sea
10. Light
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United States10328 Posts
On February 23 2011 13:49 red4ce wrote:Well look on the bright side. You can probably eliminate Stork and Jaedong from consideration for #1.
flash and hydra are really the only possible #1s.
flash hydra bisu fantasy (stork??) are pretty much locks for 5th place at least.
the lower spots... lol I don't even know.
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On February 23 2011 11:38 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 10:50 Holgerius wrote:On February 23 2011 09:51 Xiphos wrote:
Fantasy > Flash right now I think you'll find that a vast majority of all people of this site would disagree with that. You have to admit it, Fantasy is doing SOO much better than Flash. He just won a freaken GOLD at OSL a FREAKEN gold! AND that AK, oh boy don't get me started!
I really don't think an AK vs Fox makes up for pretty subpar performance in the rest of WL. Based on the quality of the games I really don't see how you can hold Fantasy over Flash. Now Hydra I can see since he both won a gold and has been playing well but then he has got to stop frigging losing to fairly mediocre opponents.
Every PR writer chooses their top 10 differently but I hold Manifesto's to be the best http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=87101
If your life depended on it and Lord Vader sent Flash, you would shudder.
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On February 23 2011 11:59 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 08:28 Evs wrote:On February 23 2011 07:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 23 2011 01:57 lastmotion wrote:
I love how Flash fans try to discredit Hydra's performance so that they can try to make Flash #1. Hydra has been on fire and won MSL, and lost 2 ZvZ (which can happen to anyone looking at how unstable ZvZ matchup is)
Unless Hydra goes on a losing streak, I think it's pretty dumb to argue otherwise Performance/statistics aren't the only thing that matters. Who do you honestly believe is the best player right now? If you bet your life on a Bo5 who would you choose? You'd honestly pick Hydra over Flash? And we go back to how bias (on who you "think" is more favored) should weigh more than an entire tournament run? Results should matter more instead of these "what if" scenarios. No but if the power rank was based on statistics then it could be generated by a computer/algorithim. It isn't, it's based on quality of gameplay and a subjective feeling of "power" that a player carries.
My problem is on how the subjectivity weighs more. Not that I want the rank to reflect on pure statistics).
Your original statement clearly points on that: stating that being a favorite in a "what-if" Bo5 match between Hydra and Flash right now would equate to a Flash victory. Such a leap of faith here. Specially since Flash has not played a BoX in months and it is in these intervening months that Hydra has shown an increase in BoX play.
I will argue here again, just as I had argued for Fantasy when he got his OSL gold: why is the dominant playstyle that the champion displayed in the individual league less valued than in proleague?
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On February 23 2011 15:39 Evs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 11:59 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 23 2011 08:28 Evs wrote:On February 23 2011 07:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 23 2011 01:57 lastmotion wrote:
I love how Flash fans try to discredit Hydra's performance so that they can try to make Flash #1. Hydra has been on fire and won MSL, and lost 2 ZvZ (which can happen to anyone looking at how unstable ZvZ matchup is)
Unless Hydra goes on a losing streak, I think it's pretty dumb to argue otherwise Performance/statistics aren't the only thing that matters. Who do you honestly believe is the best player right now? If you bet your life on a Bo5 who would you choose? You'd honestly pick Hydra over Flash? And we go back to how bias (on who you "think" is more favored) should weigh more than an entire tournament run? Results should matter more instead of these "what if" scenarios. No but if the power rank was based on statistics then it could be generated by a computer/algorithim. It isn't, it's based on quality of gameplay and a subjective feeling of "power" that a player carries. My problem is on how the subjectivity weighs more. Not that I want the rank to reflect on pure statistics). Your original statement clearly points on that: stating that being a favorite in a "what-if" Bo5 match between Hydra and Flash right now would equate to a Flash victory. Such a leap of faith here. Specially since Flash has not played a BoX in months and it is in these intervening months that Hydra has shown an increase in BoX play. I will argue here again, just as I had argued for Fantasy when he got his OSL gold: why is the dominant playstyle that the champion displayed in the individual league less valued than in proleague? Hydra hasn't played a BoX in his life (that really mattered) until the last few weeks, Flash has played BoX for all his life. When Flash was plowing through individual leagues Hydra was still struggling with the prelim/group stages.
And Fantasy, that is because his losses clearly shows his weaknesses when he doesn't get to prepare hard. If he is really dominant then he wouldn't have lost to the likes of Horang2 and Jaehoon. And they did play straight up.
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EPT
