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Both times that Flash was knocked down from the #1 spot since late '09 he totally deserved it. When JD reclaimed the spot Flash was in the middle of that ace game losing streak and had not really delivered to his full potential for a while (then he decided to become God again when the Starleagues reached the BoX stages and won dual leagues), and when Stork stole the position Flash got knocked out of both leagues while Stork was all of a sudden playing like a Protoss version of Flash when he started dominating at the end of '09.
Right now though, Flash is not showing any sign of weakness and I think most people would have him as a strong favourite to win both OSL and MSL in the upcoming season. He is looking just as good as ever. The only thing that Flash has speaking against him is that he didn't get any Starleague results last season, but that was due to 3 losses 2 months ago that I think we can all agree, based on how he has played before that (dual golds and all that good jazz) and afterwards (20-2 :O), were just a fluke (not saying Flash didn't deserve to lose those games, he did, just that they don't show any declining trend in his play and a similar situation is extremely unlikely to happen again).
Your way of arguing in that post, that Zerg and Protoss fans get sad by how dominating Flash is and want to have a bone thrown at ya or else you'll stop following the game, is horrible. I'd be quite ok with him at #1 (I would have Flash there, but I'm biased), but not for that reason. If you wanna argue for Hydra, do it properly.
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On February 24 2011 12:22 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 12:13 FakePlasticLove wrote:
Killer, Hiya, JD in the ranking?
Also Kal still stucks, all his wins come from playing ACE.
1. Flash
2. Hydra
3. Bisu
4. Fantasy
5. Stork
6. Jaedong
7. ZerO
8. Killer
9. Hiya
10. Great Pretty nice ranking, though I'd put Hydra above Flash because taking the grand slam does mean quite a bit. He may have lost in a not-so-great fashion afterwards, but keeping it together long enough to get a title means quite a bit.
Grand slam? What do you mean by that?
Isn't that the OSL/MSL/PL championships, all in one? Hydra hasn't come anywhere close to that.
To borrow a phrase from Flash haters, "all Hydra did for the OSL was micro mutas".
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On February 24 2011 13:55 Goragoth wrote:
Every time someone suggests that Flash might not be #1 a million fanboys come out screaming about how great Flash is. We get it. He's the best damn player in the world and has been for over a year now. It's still nice to celebrate other players and not just leave Flash in #1 for 12+ months straight or whatever. Go look at Elo/KeSPA if you want that. As a Zerg supporter I can say that seeing the same Terran in the #1 spot all the damn time is making me kind of hate the game. I barely watched any BW all of 2010 because it was all Flash all the time, and I found it hugely refreshing to see some variety this year. I know that if Flash takes dual golds again next season I'll probably stop caring about BW once again and just keep an eye on things for the time when Flash finally falls from his throne.
So what I'm saying is that if nothing else, at least use the little bit of subjectivity built into the PR to throw a bone to the Protoss and Zerg supporters out there once in a while to make them feel like this game isn't just about the one wunderkind Terran player. Please.
But if he is the #1 best player in the world why would he not be ranked #1 lol
if you care that much about the power rank that you can't enjoy watching starcraft then I don't know what to say. don't watch flash games then
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On February 24 2011 19:18 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 13:55 Goragoth wrote:
Every time someone suggests that Flash might not be #1 a million fanboys come out screaming about how great Flash is. We get it. He's the best damn player in the world and has been for over a year now. It's still nice to celebrate other players and not just leave Flash in #1 for 12+ months straight or whatever. Go look at Elo/KeSPA if you want that. As a Zerg supporter I can say that seeing the same Terran in the #1 spot all the damn time is making me kind of hate the game. I barely watched any BW all of 2010 because it was all Flash all the time, and I found it hugely refreshing to see some variety this year. I know that if Flash takes dual golds again next season I'll probably stop caring about BW once again and just keep an eye on things for the time when Flash finally falls from his throne.
So what I'm saying is that if nothing else, at least use the little bit of subjectivity built into the PR to throw a bone to the Protoss and Zerg supporters out there once in a while to make them feel like this game isn't just about the one wunderkind Terran player. Please. What? The point of the power rank is who's the performing the best out there, not "Let's give this guy a high rank just for fun." Incidentally, kinda funny how you complain about Flash fans saying that he's the best (when you admit that he is) and then go on to rant about how much you hate it when he wins. Yeah, nobody does that.
hey remember when Sea got #1 "just for fun"
he deserved it tho
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On February 24 2011 13:55 Goragoth wrote:
Every time someone suggests that Flash might not be #1 a million fanboys come out screaming about how great Flash is. We get it. He's the best damn player in the world and has been for over a year now. It's still nice to celebrate other players and not just leave Flash in #1 for 12+ months straight or whatever. Go look at Elo/KeSPA if you want that. As a Zerg supporter I can say that seeing the same Terran in the #1 spot all the damn time is making me kind of hate the game. I barely watched any BW all of 2010 because it was all Flash all the time, and I found it hugely refreshing to see some variety this year. I know that if Flash takes dual golds again next season I'll probably stop caring about BW once again and just keep an eye on things for the time when Flash finally falls from his throne.
So what I'm saying is that if nothing else, at least use the little bit of subjectivity built into the PR to throw a bone to the Protoss and Zerg supporters out there once in a while to make them feel like this game isn't just about the one wunderkind Terran player. Please.
The great thing about Brood War is that it feels honest and feels fair. If we put sports in a continuum having fair results vs pleasing fans, with Chinese Soccer, the NFL, and Pro Wrestling at one end and the Olympics or Goodwill Games at the other end, then BW should go nearer to the latter.
It would be stupid to take that away from BW just for the short term retention of some fans. In the long run the way you keep them is by making them feel that the results are worthwhile and mean something.
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On February 24 2011 13:55 Goragoth wrote:
Every time someone suggests that Flash might not be #1 a million fanboys come out screaming about how great Flash is.
Did you forget last month's ranking? Where Flash got knocked down to 5 and the first 10 pages of the comments were "Nice, agreeable ranking," ? The fanbase only comes out frothing at the mouth when they've got something to froth over.
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On February 25 2011 03:11 l0st_romantic wrote:Grand slam? What do you mean by that?
No, it's just one SL in my opinion. But Winning a starleague is quite an accomplishment and I think deserves #1. Flash is 6-1 this month, with an AK and a 2 kill, which isn't anywhere near as good as a SL win. It really depends on how much you value his past accomplishments, and IMO getting it together long enough to win a SL convincingly is worth more.
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The Gold Grand Slam isn't something that exists anymore. It's a title that existed back when there were 3 legitimate Starleagues. GhemTV happened to go out of business bringing us down to 2 Starleauges.
These days you cannot do better than 2 Starleague golds at the same time. That is the best. The thing about trying to include teamleague to make a "new" Gold Grand Slam award is that no teamleague has ever been won by only one dominant player carrying the team. Even when OZ and KT do well, take a good hard look: the players supporting Flash/JD are pulling their weight at these times. Even with WL this season that has been true and WL is the only time a single player actually can carry a team. Actually, until Fantasy scored his AK, the closest case to a single player carrying a team was actually Bisu, since SKT has been abysmal in WL this season other than Bisu (only 2 players in the positive and Fantasy was only +1 prior to his AK).
And regarding Flash fans, TBH, I think they are worse than Bisu fans and don't realize it. Whenever I talk to people who don't actively follow progaming I have nothing but positive things to say about Flash and in my own mind I often compare him to a young NaDa (who is not only the greatest player ever for more reasons than just a title count but also my favorite gamer ever), but on the whole I find his fans obnoxious and I can't relate to them. It's like Starcraft did not exist until Bacchus 08.
Flash fans pat themselves on the back for not bitching real hard the moment the Jan 1 ranking came out, but that lasted how long before people were saying "why is Flash only at #5?" Two weeks? And when appreciation threads for retired great players come out, do Flash fans really have to party crash?
Some are worse than others, obviously, but it's pretty bad. TBLS fans in general can get a bit obnoxious. There are other players doing some very interesting things that don't get recognized at all. Power Rank threads always turn into a discussion purely of TBLS placement without consideration of anyone else even when the TBLS placement should be considered fine based on results and accomplishments.
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The fanbase that is the worst is the one that's following the most dominant player. It was just as bad if not moreso when Bisu won Gom and MSL in the same season, when Jaedong started winning title after title every season etc. It's probably why Stork has the fewest fans because he hasn't had a real dominant period since the massive influx of fans from GOM, which is why everyone for the longest time was saying that Stork fans were the nicest ones.
Then Stork started kicking ass in both tourneys and proleague last month and they became rowdy as hell out of nowhere. Success breeds outrageous fans I guess.
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On February 25 2011 12:53 TwoToneTerran wrote:
The fanbase that is the worst is the one that's following the most dominant player. It was just as bad if not moreso when Bisu won Gom and MSL in the same season, when Jaedong started winning title after title every season etc. It's probably why Stork has the fewest fans because he hasn't had a real dominant period since the massive influx of fans from GOM.
The period just a few weeks ago was pretty damn bad with Stork fans...
On February 25 2011 12:17 Mortality wrote:
Power Rank threads always turn into a discussion purely of TBLS placement without consideration of anyone else even when the TBLS placement should be considered fine based on results and accomplishments.
To be fair, I think that lower ranks are more or less straightforward. Usually there's one player who is clearly above the other.
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On February 25 2011 12:54 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 12:53 TwoToneTerran wrote:
The fanbase that is the worst is the one that's following the most dominant player. It was just as bad if not moreso when Bisu won Gom and MSL in the same season, when Jaedong started winning title after title every season etc. It's probably why Stork has the fewest fans because he hasn't had a real dominant period since the massive influx of fans from GOM. The period just a few weeks ago was pretty damn bad with Stork fans...
You know exactly the timeframe that I'm talking about. I'm not sure why you bring up the exact followup to it that got them to quiet down.
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On February 25 2011 12:54 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 12:17 Mortality wrote:
Power Rank threads always turn into a discussion purely of TBLS placement without consideration of anyone else even when the TBLS placement should be considered fine based on results and accomplishments. To be fair, I think that lower ranks are more or less straightforward. Usually there's one player who is clearly above the other.
Not true at all. This past season was a fluke of strange outcomes. It's unusual that the two most dominant players in PL would both be unable to advance past the Ro16, and it's also unusual that a player will just out of nowhere deliver a mammoth win streak only to crash right after (Fantasy and Shine in Dec.), and we also had a player emerge out of nowhere to win a SL title, and another player advance to the final despite not being maybe a bit underrated but nothing special in the past (hell, even now Great isn't a player I'd pick as even Ro4 material for next season). Usual the first 4-5 rankings fill out fairly nicely. But people bitch and moan and whine like little whores because "omg, even though JD and Flash feel so close right now, I can't bear the thought that my fan favorite would be ranked #2."
And so you get 1000 post discussions over trivialities. And I'll admit that I've contributed to those post counts by quite a bit, but there's a reason I typically defend the PR author: that kind of discussion is the drivel that makes PR threads into a cesspool.
This season... looking at it in retrospect I feel somewhat vindicated. There's a whole field of players that people need to be looking out for, not just three or four.
This is the kind of discussion I'd prefer to see more of:
-Do Fantasy's results show that he is overly dependent on Coach Oov? To be honest, I feel Fantasy has a lot of natural talent and plays an incredibly solid game of standard SC, but I feel that unlike Flash, he hasn't really fleshed out his style.
-Do Great's results revise our opinion of him? He's not a player that's especially stood out. At times looked good, at times looked bad, ELO peak under 2200, which in this day and age is uninspiring. But he's been an ace on his team before, he's over 50% in every matchup (lifetime), and he's advanced into bo5 stages before, and honestly, no matter how much you wanna say that "he's a ZvZ sniper in a Zerg heavy field," the reality is that he escaped the second hardest Ro32 group (Leta+Soulkey+Fantasy, breaking Leta's 10 game win streak) and then defeated Kal with solid play.
-Now that Snow has finally seems to be finding his footing in PvZ, is he going to make good on growing from a lamb to a lion?
-On a related note, is it a coincidence that all three of the "lambs into lions" fell into a slump recently, or a sign that all three of them had made it into the big leagues before they were really ready?
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On February 25 2011 12:17 Mortality wrote:
And regarding Flash fans, TBH, I think they are worse than Bisu fans and don't realize it. Whenever I talk to people who don't actively follow progaming I have nothing but positive things to say about Flash and in my own mind I often compare him to a young NaDa (who is not only the greatest player ever for more reasons than just a title count but also my favorite gamer ever), but on the whole I find his fans obnoxious and I can't relate to them. It's like Starcraft did not exist until Bacchus 08.
Fans will always overstate their player's achievements. When someone is doing as well as Flash has been recently (see what I did there?) AND you look at those results with some positive bias you'll get what you see now.
FWIW, in relative terms Bisu fans are probably even more biased. What's up with trying to vote him player of the year in his worst year, when his main competitor had the best season in the history of stracraft?
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On February 26 2011 02:23 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 12:17 Mortality wrote:
And regarding Flash fans, TBH, I think they are worse than Bisu fans and don't realize it. Whenever I talk to people who don't actively follow progaming I have nothing but positive things to say about Flash and in my own mind I often compare him to a young NaDa (who is not only the greatest player ever for more reasons than just a title count but also my favorite gamer ever), but on the whole I find his fans obnoxious and I can't relate to them. It's like Starcraft did not exist until Bacchus 08.
Fans will always overstate their player's achievements. When someone is doing as well as Flash has been recently (see what I did there?) AND you look at those results with some positive bias you'll get what you see now. FWIW, in relative terms Bisu fans are probably even more biased. What's up with trying to vote him player of the year in his worst year, when his main competitor had the best season in the history of stracraft?
QFT. Bisu fans keep talking as if their player is the best player around and can win versus anyone, when there are no facts to back that up. On the other hand, Flash is favorite versus anyone. Bisu vs Stork? Nope. Bisu vs. Flash? Nope. Bisu vs. Jaedong? Maybe. Bisu vs. Shine? hahaha
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Ok, I think we've had enough of the ''Who has the worst fanboys?''-discussion now. Let's at least try to stick to something relevant to the topic. 
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Clearly that topic should be how great Flash is and how every other progamer is made of poop.
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On February 26 2011 04:30 l0st_romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 02:23 hypercube wrote:On February 25 2011 12:17 Mortality wrote:
And regarding Flash fans, TBH, I think they are worse than Bisu fans and don't realize it. Whenever I talk to people who don't actively follow progaming I have nothing but positive things to say about Flash and in my own mind I often compare him to a young NaDa (who is not only the greatest player ever for more reasons than just a title count but also my favorite gamer ever), but on the whole I find his fans obnoxious and I can't relate to them. It's like Starcraft did not exist until Bacchus 08.
Fans will always overstate their player's achievements. When someone is doing as well as Flash has been recently (see what I did there?) AND you look at those results with some positive bias you'll get what you see now. FWIW, in relative terms Bisu fans are probably even more biased. What's up with trying to vote him player of the year in his worst year, when his main competitor had the best season in the history of stracraft? QFT. Bisu fans keep talking as if their player is the best player around and can win versus anyone, when there are no facts to back that up. On the other hand, Flash is favorite versus anyone. Bisu vs Stork? Nope. Bisu vs. Flash? Nope. Bisu vs. Jaedong? Maybe. Bisu vs. Shine? hahaha
You realize that you just demonstrated that you're an awful fanboy in your attempt to explain how bad Bisu fanboys are, right?
I agree with Holgerius though, I don't think this is a discussion that CAN get anywhere. No one will admit that their player's fanbase is the worst because usually you can't see it.
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On February 26 2011 09:37 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 04:30 l0st_romantic wrote:On February 26 2011 02:23 hypercube wrote:On February 25 2011 12:17 Mortality wrote:
And regarding Flash fans, TBH, I think they are worse than Bisu fans and don't realize it. Whenever I talk to people who don't actively follow progaming I have nothing but positive things to say about Flash and in my own mind I often compare him to a young NaDa (who is not only the greatest player ever for more reasons than just a title count but also my favorite gamer ever), but on the whole I find his fans obnoxious and I can't relate to them. It's like Starcraft did not exist until Bacchus 08.
Fans will always overstate their player's achievements. When someone is doing as well as Flash has been recently (see what I did there?) AND you look at those results with some positive bias you'll get what you see now. FWIW, in relative terms Bisu fans are probably even more biased. What's up with trying to vote him player of the year in his worst year, when his main competitor had the best season in the history of stracraft? QFT. Bisu fans keep talking as if their player is the best player around and can win versus anyone, when there are no facts to back that up. On the other hand, Flash is favorite versus anyone. Bisu vs Stork? Nope. Bisu vs. Flash? Nope. Bisu vs. Jaedong? Maybe. Bisu vs. Shine? hahaha You realize that you just demonstrated that you're an awful fanboy in your attempt to explain how bad Bisu fanboys are, right? I agree with Holgerius though, I don't think this is a discussion that CAN get anywhere. No one will admit that their player's fanbase is the worst because usually you can't see it.
Well come on Lightwip, Bisu is a massive underdog against Flash in a head to head game. But that's more in that that's Bisu's worst matchup and Flash's, uh, being Flash at TvP.
Yes, technically he can beat him but so too could a computer if he was suddenly hit by a meteor or something.
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On February 26 2011 09:48 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 09:37 Lightwip wrote:On February 26 2011 04:30 l0st_romantic wrote:On February 26 2011 02:23 hypercube wrote:On February 25 2011 12:17 Mortality wrote:
And regarding Flash fans, TBH, I think they are worse than Bisu fans and don't realize it. Whenever I talk to people who don't actively follow progaming I have nothing but positive things to say about Flash and in my own mind I often compare him to a young NaDa (who is not only the greatest player ever for more reasons than just a title count but also my favorite gamer ever), but on the whole I find his fans obnoxious and I can't relate to them. It's like Starcraft did not exist until Bacchus 08.
Fans will always overstate their player's achievements. When someone is doing as well as Flash has been recently (see what I did there?) AND you look at those results with some positive bias you'll get what you see now. FWIW, in relative terms Bisu fans are probably even more biased. What's up with trying to vote him player of the year in his worst year, when his main competitor had the best season in the history of stracraft? QFT. Bisu fans keep talking as if their player is the best player around and can win versus anyone, when there are no facts to back that up. On the other hand, Flash is favorite versus anyone. Bisu vs Stork? Nope. Bisu vs. Flash? Nope. Bisu vs. Jaedong? Maybe. Bisu vs. Shine? hahaha You realize that you just demonstrated that you're an awful fanboy in your attempt to explain how bad Bisu fanboys are, right? I agree with Holgerius though, I don't think this is a discussion that CAN get anywhere. No one will admit that their player's fanbase is the worst because usually you can't see it. Well come on Lightwip, Bisu is a massive underdog against Flash in a head to head game. But that's more in that that's Bisu's worst matchup and Flash's, uh, being Flash at TvP. Yes, technically he can beat him but so too could a computer if he was suddenly hit by a meteor or something.
Bisu could definitely beat Flash, and he's not a massive underdog. He may not be favored, but he's not a massive underdog. But that's beside the point; l0st is clearly trolling.
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On February 26 2011 09:56 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 09:48 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 26 2011 09:37 Lightwip wrote:On February 26 2011 04:30 l0st_romantic wrote:On February 26 2011 02:23 hypercube wrote:On February 25 2011 12:17 Mortality wrote:
And regarding Flash fans, TBH, I think they are worse than Bisu fans and don't realize it. Whenever I talk to people who don't actively follow progaming I have nothing but positive things to say about Flash and in my own mind I often compare him to a young NaDa (who is not only the greatest player ever for more reasons than just a title count but also my favorite gamer ever), but on the whole I find his fans obnoxious and I can't relate to them. It's like Starcraft did not exist until Bacchus 08.
Fans will always overstate their player's achievements. When someone is doing as well as Flash has been recently (see what I did there?) AND you look at those results with some positive bias you'll get what you see now. FWIW, in relative terms Bisu fans are probably even more biased. What's up with trying to vote him player of the year in his worst year, when his main competitor had the best season in the history of stracraft? QFT. Bisu fans keep talking as if their player is the best player around and can win versus anyone, when there are no facts to back that up. On the other hand, Flash is favorite versus anyone. Bisu vs Stork? Nope. Bisu vs. Flash? Nope. Bisu vs. Jaedong? Maybe. Bisu vs. Shine? hahaha You realize that you just demonstrated that you're an awful fanboy in your attempt to explain how bad Bisu fanboys are, right? I agree with Holgerius though, I don't think this is a discussion that CAN get anywhere. No one will admit that their player's fanbase is the worst because usually you can't see it. Well come on Lightwip, Bisu is a massive underdog against Flash in a head to head game. But that's more in that that's Bisu's worst matchup and Flash's, uh, being Flash at TvP. Yes, technically he can beat him but so too could a computer if he was suddenly hit by a meteor or something. Bisu could definitely beat Flash, and he's not a massive underdog. He may not be favored, but he's not a massive underdog. But that's beside the point; l0st is clearly trolling.
On February 26 2011 09:31 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Clearly that topic should be how great Flash is and how every other progamer is made of poop.
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