And regarding Flash fans, TBH, I think they are worse than Bisu fans and don't realize it. Whenever I talk to people who don't actively follow progaming I have nothing but positive things to say about Flash and in my own mind I often compare him to a young NaDa (who is not only the greatest player ever for more reasons than just a title count but also my favorite gamer ever), but on the whole I find his fans obnoxious and I can't relate to them. It's like Starcraft did not exist until Bacchus 08.
Fans will always overstate their player's achievements. When someone is doing as well as Flash has been recently (see what I did there?) AND you look at those results with some positive bias you'll get what you see now.
FWIW, in relative terms Bisu fans are probably even more biased. What's up with trying to vote him player of the year in his worst year, when his main competitor had the best season in the history of stracraft?
QFT. Bisu fans keep talking as if their player is the best player around and can win versus anyone, when there are no facts to back that up. On the other hand, Flash is favorite versus anyone. Bisu vs Stork? Nope. Bisu vs. Flash? Nope. Bisu vs. Jaedong? Maybe. Bisu vs. Shine? hahaha
You realize that you just demonstrated that you're an awful fanboy in your attempt to explain how bad Bisu fanboys are, right?
I agree with Holgerius though, I don't think this is a discussion that CAN get anywhere. No one will admit that their player's fanbase is the worst because usually you can't see it.
Well come on Lightwip, Bisu is a massive underdog against Flash in a head to head game. But that's more in that that's Bisu's worst matchup and Flash's, uh, being Flash at TvP.
Yes, technically he can beat him but so too could a computer if he was suddenly hit by a meteor or something.
Bisu could definitely beat Flash, and he's not a massive underdog. He may not be favored, but he's not a massive underdog. But that's beside the point; l0st is clearly trolling.
Bisu could definitely beat Flash? I'd wonder what liquibet would say if they ever had to play against each other.
And regarding Flash fans, TBH, I think they are worse than Bisu fans and don't realize it. Whenever I talk to people who don't actively follow progaming I have nothing but positive things to say about Flash and in my own mind I often compare him to a young NaDa (who is not only the greatest player ever for more reasons than just a title count but also my favorite gamer ever), but on the whole I find his fans obnoxious and I can't relate to them. It's like Starcraft did not exist until Bacchus 08.
Fans will always overstate their player's achievements. When someone is doing as well as Flash has been recently (see what I did there?) AND you look at those results with some positive bias you'll get what you see now.
FWIW, in relative terms Bisu fans are probably even more biased. What's up with trying to vote him player of the year in his worst year, when his main competitor had the best season in the history of stracraft?
QFT. Bisu fans keep talking as if their player is the best player around and can win versus anyone, when there are no facts to back that up. On the other hand, Flash is favorite versus anyone. Bisu vs Stork? Nope. Bisu vs. Flash? Nope. Bisu vs. Jaedong? Maybe. Bisu vs. Shine? hahaha
You realize that you just demonstrated that you're an awful fanboy in your attempt to explain how bad Bisu fanboys are, right?
I agree with Holgerius though, I don't think this is a discussion that CAN get anywhere. No one will admit that their player's fanbase is the worst because usually you can't see it.
Well come on Lightwip, Bisu is a massive underdog against Flash in a head to head game. But that's more in that that's Bisu's worst matchup and Flash's, uh, being Flash at TvP.
Yes, technically he can beat him but so too could a computer if he was suddenly hit by a meteor or something.
Bisu could definitely beat Flash, and he's not a massive underdog. He may not be favored, but he's not a massive underdog. But that's beside the point; l0st is clearly trolling.
Bisu could definitely beat Flash? I'd wonder what liquibet would say if they ever had to play against each other.
Bisu wins every poll. Including Terran of the Year.
And regarding Flash fans, TBH, I think they are worse than Bisu fans and don't realize it. Whenever I talk to people who don't actively follow progaming I have nothing but positive things to say about Flash and in my own mind I often compare him to a young NaDa (who is not only the greatest player ever for more reasons than just a title count but also my favorite gamer ever), but on the whole I find his fans obnoxious and I can't relate to them. It's like Starcraft did not exist until Bacchus 08.
Fans will always overstate their player's achievements. When someone is doing as well as Flash has been recently (see what I did there?) AND you look at those results with some positive bias you'll get what you see now.
FWIW, in relative terms Bisu fans are probably even more biased. What's up with trying to vote him player of the year in his worst year, when his main competitor had the best season in the history of stracraft?
QFT. Bisu fans keep talking as if their player is the best player around and can win versus anyone, when there are no facts to back that up. On the other hand, Flash is favorite versus anyone. Bisu vs Stork? Nope. Bisu vs. Flash? Nope. Bisu vs. Jaedong? Maybe. Bisu vs. Shine? hahaha
You realize that you just demonstrated that you're an awful fanboy in your attempt to explain how bad Bisu fanboys are, right?
I agree with Holgerius though, I don't think this is a discussion that CAN get anywhere. No one will admit that their player's fanbase is the worst because usually you can't see it.
Well come on Lightwip, Bisu is a massive underdog against Flash in a head to head game. But that's more in that that's Bisu's worst matchup and Flash's, uh, being Flash at TvP.
Yes, technically he can beat him but so too could a computer if he was suddenly hit by a meteor or something.
Bisu could definitely beat Flash, and he's not a massive underdog. He may not be favored, but he's not a massive underdog. But that's beside the point; l0st is clearly trolling.
Bisu could definitely beat Flash? I'd wonder what liquibet would say if they ever had to play against each other.
Yeah, Bisu could beat Flash. I wouldn't favor him in a game against Flash but anyone who thinks it's impossible or highly unlikely is being very biased. The fact of the matter is, Bisu is either the best or second best Protoss right now. So yeah, while vT is his worst matchup and while I would definitely say that Flash is favored in a match I don't think it'd be super one-sided. Mostly because their most recent matches haven't been crazy one-sided slaughters. Their game on Icarus for example, Bisu looked really fucking good and he definitely could have won it.
Bisu looked really fucking good and he definitely could have won it.
I doubt that handsome face can help him vs Flash. Anyway last results show as that Bisu is kinda one-sided player, and quite shaky in all mu besides PvZ. And all his failures cost his team a win.
On February 26 2011 23:10 naruto9838 wrote: I think Fantasy should've gone on higher, since he beat his Silver Streak, and he didn't get crowned by Yellow.
I'd put Fantasy higher than Hydra. He's 1-1 against Hydra, but his win is more recent and he won the OSL, which is more reputable than MSL.
On February 26 2011 23:10 naruto9838 wrote: I think Fantasy should've gone on higher, since he beat his Silver Streak, and he didn't get crowned by Yellow.
I'd put Fantasy higher than Hydra. He's 1-1 against Hydra, but his win is more recent and he won the OSL, which is more reputable than MSL.
Agreed. Hydra is doing really bad lately, losing to some random zergs even one day after the MSL final. Fantasy did lose vs Stork right after winning, but it was Stork, not killer or action.
The eye test (you know, actually watching the games) tells me that Bisu is heavy underdog against Flash on a reasonable map. Bisu is the most skilled Protoss and a top 2 Protoss any day of the week right now and does seem to play well against Flash but their styles mismatch in a way that really favors Flash.
Obviously it's not like 95/5 Flash more like 75/25 or maybe 80/20 Flash. You're talking a player who really doesn't get PvT (Bisu) against a player who seems to fully understand TvP (Flash). That's why you see so many games where it looks like Bisu has a chance but over the course of a long game the number of opportunities for Flash's superior game understanding to shine through increases a lot, and he's likely to find a way. You don't even need to just watch Bisu vs Flash to realize this. Watch Bisu versus some (decent but ultimately mediocre) Terran and you get all the information you need about his (lack of) understanding of the matchup, like his recent loss to Hiya (Hiya's good but there's no excuse to lose PvT to someone who's not a top Terran) or his painful victory against Frozen on TvP graveyard Aztec.
The point is Flash is obviously not 100 times better than Bisu or something like that but their styles mismatch, just like Best's style used to mismatch with Flash in a way that made it tough for Flash to beat Best even though Flash really was playing way better at the time. Sometimes it's got something to do with styles just as much as raw skill. Some maps favor Bisu's style (Destination, which he was amazing on) and other maps favor PvT absurdly (Medusa) and that's where Bisu got most of his wins. The best win he's had against Flash in the past few years was the game on Sin Chupong in GOM ro8 game 2 the year he won GOM. Of course this isn't meant to discount his great wins on Destination and Medusa (some of the best TvPs ever played) but it just doesn't feel like on most maps he can overcome the difference in understanding of the matchup.
On February 26 2011 22:37 sixfour wrote: 1 Flash 2 Bisu 3 Hydra 4 Jaedong 5 Fantasy 6 Stork 7 Kal 8 Killer? 9 Zero? 10 Movie?
Jeadong too hight for sure this month, just watch his last games. He FAILED his credit of doubt in my eyes and I think he should be punished for this. Fantasy should be highter than Hydra, he just ended his 6 wins streak (while all-killed Fox, that should count as well), while Hydra still cant recover from a shock after his win in MSL. Stork should fight for 5 or 4 (or even 3).
On February 27 2011 02:55 Holgerius wrote: I don't see Hydra at #1 right now. 0-3 since the MSL win now, and that was no ZvZ BO luckbased loss.
I'll take back my previous statement that Hydra deserves #1, he couldn't keep it together anymore. I'd say #3 right now. 1. Flash 2. Bisu 3. Hydra 4. Fantasy 5. Killer 6. Hiya 7. Jaedong 8. Kal 9. Zero 10. Great To those saying Bisu's game against Frozen was questionable: Did you notice that he had a massive BO disadvantage that he had to overcome? I mean, he had some questionable attacks, but he still had to overcome a huge disadvantage(and he did win in the end). Flash had plenty of questionable games where he won, but no one complains about those. And against Kal, he just couldn't overcome a huge disadvantage. Not exactly something I'd call shaky, just not 90% winrate.
On February 27 2011 02:55 Holgerius wrote: I don't see Hydra at #1 right now. 0-3 since the MSL win now, and that was no ZvZ BO luckbased loss.
I'll take back my previous statement that Hydra deserves #1, he couldn't keep it together anymore. I'd say #3 right now. 1. Flash 2. Bisu 3. Hydra 4. Fantasy 5. Killer 6. Hiya 7. Jaedong 8. Kal 9. Zero 10. Great To those saying Bisu's game against Frozen was questionable: Did you notice that he had a massive BO disadvantage that he had to overcome? I mean, he had some questionable attacks, but he still had to overcome a huge disadvantage(and he did win in the end). Flash had plenty of questionable games where he won, but no one complains about those. And against Kal, he just couldn't overcome a huge disadvantage. Not exactly something I'd call shaky, just not 90% winrate.
I think Hydra should be #2. He has an OSL title, but his power level is not quite up to Flash's level yet. Lightwip, there's no reason to drop him all the way from #1 to #3 just because he "couldn't keep it together". If that's the reasoning then Bisu's loss to Kal should also count on that criterion.
On February 27 2011 02:55 Holgerius wrote: I don't see Hydra at #1 right now. 0-3 since the MSL win now, and that was no ZvZ BO luckbased loss.
I'll take back my previous statement that Hydra deserves #1, he couldn't keep it together anymore. I'd say #3 right now. 1. Flash 2. Bisu 3. Hydra 4. Fantasy 5. Killer 6. Hiya 7. Jaedong 8. Kal 9. Zero 10. Great To those saying Bisu's game against Frozen was questionable: Did you notice that he had a massive BO disadvantage that he had to overcome? I mean, he had some questionable attacks, but he still had to overcome a huge disadvantage(and he did win in the end). Flash had plenty of questionable games where he won, but no one complains about those. And against Kal, he just couldn't overcome a huge disadvantage. Not exactly something I'd call shaky, just not 90% winrate.
There was no BO disadvantage. Frozen getting a third expansion is not an inherent build order disadvantage, it's bad scouting. That's like saying Frozen had a BO disadvantage when Bisu took 4 more bases.
On February 27 2011 02:55 Holgerius wrote: I don't see Hydra at #1 right now. 0-3 since the MSL win now, and that was no ZvZ BO luckbased loss.
I'll take back my previous statement that Hydra deserves #1, he couldn't keep it together anymore. I'd say #3 right now. 1. Flash 2. Bisu 3. Hydra 4. Fantasy 5. Killer 6. Hiya 7. Jaedong 8. Kal 9. Zero 10. Great To those saying Bisu's game against Frozen was questionable: Did you notice that he had a massive BO disadvantage that he had to overcome? I mean, he had some questionable attacks, but he still had to overcome a huge disadvantage(and he did win in the end). Flash had plenty of questionable games where he won, but no one complains about those. And against Kal, he just couldn't overcome a huge disadvantage. Not exactly something I'd call shaky, just not 90% winrate.
Ugh, 1 Fac mines into double expand is the best economic counter to 12 Nex but even then it's not a "massive" BO disadvantage. If it was then why would Protoss ever 12 Nex, given that Terran can pretty much always do this in response? It's a good response on a lot of maps by T but to call it a massive BO disadvantage is absolutely ridiculous.
Also Bisu evened it up in the midgame but still showed minimal signs of knowing how to effectively end a game against Terran. Yes, it's very hard when T plays the way Frozen did but I guarantee Stork would have worked Frozen into the ground 10 minutes sooner. Given that Stork is probably 40/60 to win straight up against Flash I don't think it's a stretch or insult by any means to say Bisu is around 25/75.
On February 27 2011 02:55 Holgerius wrote: I don't see Hydra at #1 right now. 0-3 since the MSL win now, and that was no ZvZ BO luckbased loss.
I'll take back my previous statement that Hydra deserves #1, he couldn't keep it together anymore. I'd say #3 right now. 1. Flash 2. Bisu 3. Hydra 4. Fantasy 5. Killer 6. Hiya 7. Jaedong 8. Kal 9. Zero 10. Great To those saying Bisu's game against Frozen was questionable: Did you notice that he had a massive BO disadvantage that he had to overcome? I mean, he had some questionable attacks, but he still had to overcome a huge disadvantage(and he did win in the end). Flash had plenty of questionable games where he won, but no one complains about those. And against Kal, he just couldn't overcome a huge disadvantage. Not exactly something I'd call shaky, just not 90% winrate.
I think Hydra should be #2. He has an OSL title, but his power level is not quite up to Flash's level yet. Lightwip, there's no reason to drop him all the way from #1 to #3 just because he "couldn't keep it together". If that's the reasoning then Bisu's loss to Kal should also count on that criterion.
You misspelled Fantasy! I'll fix that for you (y)
I think Fantasy should be #2. He has an OSL title, but his power level is not quite up to Flash's level yet.
Anyway, I think Fantasy should be #3, right after Bisu.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/J0Q4H.jpg)
