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On February 21 2011 02:02 Mumei wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 01:46 Lightwip wrote:On February 21 2011 01:01 Mumei wrote:On February 20 2011 13:12 Mortality wrote:On a related note... Jaedong is the strongest series player of TBLS followed by Flash. I have trouble squaring this with recent results. Can you explain? He means in general. Before 6 months ago, Jaedong almost never lost a Bo5. Oh, I know. He's still 24 - 7 (I think; Liquipedia says 23 - 6 through 2010, and I added 1 - 1 for Snow / Hydra) in Bo5 even after the last year against Flash. But if Flash has been consistently beating him for a year (and, at least to me, consistently looking better prepared and predicting his opponent better), wouldn't that make Flash better now? That's what I was asking about.
You're confusing the meanings of "better player" and "better series player." I'm not talking about series record or dominance. I'm talking about your level of play in a series vs your level of play out of series. Which has NOTHING to do with your overall dominance because you are comparing a player against himself.
Jaedong has historically been stronger in series play than anywhere else, in some cases overcoming players who were either a.) stronger than JD at the time they faced or b.) at a considerable advantage at some point during the series.
Flash has been winning against Jaedong recently simply because he is the better player.
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On February 21 2011 04:15 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 02:02 Mumei wrote:On February 21 2011 01:46 Lightwip wrote:On February 21 2011 01:01 Mumei wrote:On February 20 2011 13:12 Mortality wrote:On a related note... Jaedong is the strongest series player of TBLS followed by Flash. I have trouble squaring this with recent results. Can you explain? He means in general. Before 6 months ago, Jaedong almost never lost a Bo5. Oh, I know. He's still 24 - 7 (I think; Liquipedia says 23 - 6 through 2010, and I added 1 - 1 for Snow / Hydra) in Bo5 even after the last year against Flash. But if Flash has been consistently beating him for a year (and, at least to me, consistently looking better prepared and predicting his opponent better), wouldn't that make Flash better now? That's what I was asking about. You're confusing the meanings of "better player" and "better series player." I'm not talking about series record or dominance. I'm talking about your level of play in a series vs your level of play out of series. Which has NOTHING to do with your overall dominance because you are comparing a player against himself.Jaedong has historically been stronger in series play than anywhere else, in some cases overcoming players who were either a.) stronger than JD at the time they faced or b.) at a considerable advantage at some point during the series. Flash has been winning against Jaedong recently simply because he is the better player.
That makes sense. Flash was over Jaedong going into the Power Outage finals, but Jaedong's performance in that series was absolutely sublime.
Of course, we will never really know, because I doubt any progamer could absoultely negate the mental trauma of seeing a round be forfeited against you due to circumstances outside of your control and seeing your dad get roughed up by security and kicked out of the arena.
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2-1 this month maybe give Bbyong the 10th spot out of respect for what he did for teamliquid.
I honestly wouldnt mind having hydra as number 1 if he continues the month strongly in proleague as many others have said.
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It's really odd but it seems like only 2 out of Flash/Jaedong/Bisu can ever be dominant at any given time. Early 2009 it was Jaedong/Bisu, then just as Flash started to rise, Bisu went into a slump and late 2009 and all of 2010 was Flash/Jaedong. Now that Bisu has made a comeback Jaedong seems to be going into a slump.
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On February 21 2011 04:15 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 02:02 Mumei wrote:On February 21 2011 01:46 Lightwip wrote:On February 21 2011 01:01 Mumei wrote:On February 20 2011 13:12 Mortality wrote:On a related note... Jaedong is the strongest series player of TBLS followed by Flash. I have trouble squaring this with recent results. Can you explain? He means in general. Before 6 months ago, Jaedong almost never lost a Bo5. Oh, I know. He's still 24 - 7 (I think; Liquipedia says 23 - 6 through 2010, and I added 1 - 1 for Snow / Hydra) in Bo5 even after the last year against Flash. But if Flash has been consistently beating him for a year (and, at least to me, consistently looking better prepared and predicting his opponent better), wouldn't that make Flash better now? That's what I was asking about. You're confusing the meanings of "better player" and "better series player." I'm not talking about series record or dominance. I'm talking about your level of play in a series vs your level of play out of series. Which has NOTHING to do with your overall dominance because you are comparing a player against himself.Jaedong has historically been stronger in series play than anywhere else, in some cases overcoming players who were either a.) stronger than JD at the time they faced or b.) at a considerable advantage at some point during the series. Flash has been winning against Jaedong recently simply because he is the better player.
I would rather say that you are confusing the meanings of "bigger difference between series and non-series play" and "better series player". The first apply for JD, the second for Flash.
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Flash is the better series player now by virtue of being a better player. Jaedong is, historically, an astronomical series player with very little equal, if any. There's nothing wrong with what Mortality said.
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On February 20 2011 13:12 Mortality wrote:
Stork is a very strong strategic player. Among TaekBaengLeeSsang I actually think Stork is the strongest strategically.
The problem is that being the strongest strategically does not equate to being strong at preparation for a series. Hence, Flamewheel's analysis is correct: Stork has historically not been a very strong series player. To be precise, he is the weakest series player among TBLS. Because preparing for a series is more than just preparing the right builds. It's about getting in your opponents head and keeping him out of yours.
I don't think Stork is the strongest in TBLS in anything. He's always been the tack-on player—still very good, mind you, but a distant fourth.
He's been an excellent series player, just not in finals. You have to be an excellent series player when you've made as many finals as he has, and that's really where he's made his mark. He's never had the type of PL success the other three have had. Until the most recent round, he's been bad in WL, which doesn't suggest the sort of natural talent the other three have.
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On February 21 2011 06:53 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Flash is the better series player now by virtue of being a better player. Jaedong is, historically, an astronomical series player with very little equal, if any. There's nothing wrong with what Mortality said.
Yes, there is.
Series player is defined by combination of his "normal" play and how he can improve this play in series. JD is the player who can improve his normal game most. However his normal play is inferior to Flash's, so now, in sum, Flash series play is better than JD's.
I really don't think we disagree here, but then this
Jaedong is the strongest series player
isn't really correct as it imply that the "improving" factor is the only thing that matters. But both factors matters for that absolute statements.
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Oov was the best finals player ever despite the fact he'd get his clock cleaned nowadays. Nada is the most accomplished player despite the fact he couldn't repeat the feat of winning six titles again if asked. People can hold titles in the retrospective.
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I agree. I don't see any problem at all with that statement.
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On February 21 2011 07:25 SimonB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 13:12 Mortality wrote:
Stork is a very strong strategic player. Among TaekBaengLeeSsang I actually think Stork is the strongest strategically.
The problem is that being the strongest strategically does not equate to being strong at preparation for a series. Hence, Flamewheel's analysis is correct: Stork has historically not been a very strong series player. To be precise, he is the weakest series player among TBLS. Because preparing for a series is more than just preparing the right builds. It's about getting in your opponents head and keeping him out of yours.
I don't think Stork is the strongest in TBLS in anything. He's always been the tack-on player—still very good, mind you, but a distant fourth.
You're welcome to your opinion. I disagree wholeheartedly. Flash and Jaedong are both more well-rounded Starcraft players than Stork is. And they are both better at exhibiting their true skill in series than Stork is (there, does that make all you anal retentive types out there happy? that's all I meant when I said "better series player" -_-;; you kids can stop playing semantics since I made it quite clear what I meant). Hence their superiority.
Regarding Bisu... I find him up-and-down a bit more than Stork, so I'll leave him aside. But I find it hard to imagine that Bisu could be considered better strategically than Stork. It's been said countless times in interviews by people in the business that Stork is the one creating the strategies and then Bisu ends up copying them and doing better. He does better because his execution is better, not because he's stronger strategically.
He's been an excellent series player, just not in finals. You have to be an excellent series player when you've made as many finals as he has, and that's really where he's made his mark. He's never had the type of PL success the other three have had. Until the most recent round, he's been bad in WL, which doesn't suggest the sort of natural talent the other three have.
Yes, Stork is a very strong series player. But relative to Flash and Jaedong? Fuck no. They are on a whole other level.
Stork tends to fail to bring anything special to a series. Especially in later rounds of tournaments this tends to bite him in the ass. What Flash brings to series is a touch of unpredictability. He's a master at cheese, but he doesn't normally show it. Only in series does he tend to bust it out to keep his opponent on his toes. And Jaedong... his tenacity is like nothing else this business has seen.
Edit: Regarding PL, something you have to understand is that PL favors players with strong fundamentals. In other words, execution ability. This has always been true, and in WL arguably more so since it's hard to predict which maps you will be sent out on and even harder to predict opponents.
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On February 21 2011 07:44 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Oov was the best finals player ever despite the fact he'd get his clock cleaned nowadays. Nada is the most accomplished player despite the fact he couldn't repeat the feat of winning six titles again if asked. People can hold titles in the retrospective.
Oov is the best finals player because he did what nobody else has done yet. If somebody goes and win 10 finals out of 10 in brutal, dominat fashion, Oov won't be the best finals player anymore. The same goes for Nada's accomplishment. People can hold titles in retrospective but only so far.
And how is JD the strongest series player? Have you forgotten how Flash has always had his number in BO3? Always! It's a series too. The "Jaedong is the strongest series player" is absurdly strong statement, if you rephrase it "Jaedong was for a long time the strongest BO5 player", I've no problem with that.
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From the perspective of stepping up your game in series play, bo5 counts for more than bo3. I think it should be obvious why this is the case but apparently not.
Look, ask yourself "what makes playing a series different than playing a regular match?" It's not like the skill of getting inside your opponents head and trying to predict his strategy is irrelevant in regular matches. Mind games always play a factor. So what's different?
In a series, after I play every game -- and even during the game I'm currently playing -- I have to re-evaluate my position based on what my opponent has revealed in terms of builds, strategies, mind-games, tactics, and anything else that could qualify as an advantage or disadvantage and I have to use that evaluation in order to make an educated guess on what my next approach should be in the next game. The next game is not tomorrow, it's not a week from now [Edit: by the way, in OSL and MSL you play the first game of a bo3 a week before the second game, so... that reinforces my point...], it's right now and my decision has to be made on the spot. I don't have a chance to go back to the lab or any shit like that. And each time I re-evaluate I not only need to decide my strategy with the idea in mind of defeating my opponent, but also with the idea in mind of keeping myself unpredictable so that my opponent has a more difficult time completing his evaluation.
The longer the series the more opportunities there are for this type of decision making to play a role in the outcome of the match. And when I attempt to analyze "series ability," it is this decision making that I am looking at.
Only this attribute. I do not consider any other attribute. Because I am separating "series skill" from all the other skills that comprise a player's overall skill at this game.
If you look at, for example, Fantasy vs Jaedong in the Batoo OSL finals, if that were a bo3, Fantasy would have won 2-0. I'm not saying "Fantasy was up 2-0 so of course he would have won 2-0," because a player might decide on a different order in which they use different strategies based on the length of the series so that kind of thinking is flawed. I'm saying Fantasy would have won 2-0 because Jaedong would not have had a sufficient amount of data to read Fantasy and secure the win. This is a prime example of how length of a series can effect result. After the third game, Jaedong had won regardless of the length of the series (that is, a series long enough so that at least those first 3 games were played), because Fantasy's preparation could not match JD's tenacity. bo5, bo7, bo41, whatever.
This is a clear case of where the attribute I am interested in decided the result of a series.
And I am well aware of Flash's ability at series play. By far the greatest example Flash has shown us was his win over Stork in Bacchus 08. The aggressive timing push in game 1 probably did not influence Stork's build in game 2 (14 nexus) because Stork is not some newbie who freaks out at such things. But in game 2 Flash hit Stork with BBS. And in the third game, Stork scouts early, and at one point has 2 probes chasing Flash's scouting SCV, and follows up some good early pressure with zero pressure defensive play. I had the sense that he was just completely lost.
That said, Flash vs Stork is not typical of a Flash series. Normally Flash's approach to a series is a little more like NaDa's, but in that series it was more like Boxer's or Oov's.
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I agree with a lot of what you said, but not with the basic - that only the re-evaluation and subsequent change of strategy should be considered.
For me series play is combination of "normal play" (skill level), the re-evalution like you wrote, and preparation, which is different for BO1, BO3, BO5 etc. That's why I distinguish BO3 from BO5 (and both of them from BO1), because the dynamic are completely diferent, so should be the preparation. Some players may have great preparation for BO1, but lacks a simililar talent for longer series. And some others may excell in BO5 but fall short in BO3.
Why I look at this that way? Because for me it's impossible to see a series and separate those three things with absolute clarity. You may very well read your opponent perfectly and have a plan for next game, but it's hardly worth anything if you are not skilled enough to execute it. Similarily you may be terrible at adjusting your strategy, but you can overcome it with superior preparation (to a degree).
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Hmm, I'm honestly not sure where Stork belongs nowadays. He really hasn't done enough to impress this month. The only thing he did this month was cheese out Flash in an interesting way, but he didn't even carry that into a team win.
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Russian Federation327 Posts
Well, he played 3 games:
1 was cheesy - win
2&3 were straight - loss
We can be lenient towards the game vs Stats, as Stork were busy with vs Flash preparation.
But vs Sea is really matters as Sea is the strongest MBC player, and Stork was send out to snipe him.
And Sea is not even in top10 in PR =)
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So busy practicing early-game cheese that you totally neglect PvP practice (when the opponent's only other significant threat is P)?
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Russian Federation327 Posts
Well, after all this Bisu kills, he can be confident in his PvP =)
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#1 Hydra
#2/3 Bisu/Flash, not sure which comes before
Fantasy should drop
Stork should drop =/
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Fantasy is an interesting person to place. He has 1 win, which is an impressive team save in ace, but on the other hand he doesn't really get a chance to play because Bisu is too good.
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EPT
