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On June 25 2010 01:46 Tianx wrote:
Of course how important the games are matter. If you go 2-6 in proleague but dominate both a starleague's final and semifinal 6-0, you look waaaaaay better than someone who goes 8-0 in proleague, barely scrapes into the final, and then gets dominated in a final 3-0 even though your record is strictly 'better.'
Since when was Jaedong dominating Midas and Calm him barely scraping into the final? He is also 14-0 in proleague lately, not 8-0. And I still maintain that KT's Ace matches are quite important. Maybe not from now on due to how STX are doing, but they where really close to catching up and then Flash loses 6 deciding games in a row.
On June 25 2010 01:46 Tianx wrote:
His 50% record in the last two weeks is ass, but his play is anything but.
5 weeks, and his last game did not look good at all, nor did his last 3 against effort last month.
At this point I feel that in the same way Flash got #1 in January when Jaedong beat him (which he definitely deserved at that point), Jaedong should get #1 this month even though Flash beat him recently, just because Jaedong has been doing much better besides that one series (or like Calm/Jaedong after than MSL series). Of course when Flash still got #1 in January he had a lot more things going for him than Jaedong has now and so the decision this month is not as clear cut, but in the end I don't think Flash deserves to be #1 right now.
I probably sound really whiny. Sorry for that.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 25 2010 01:47 InFdude wrote:
Just rename this shit to fanboy ranking. And what's with the guy who got banned for being on the wrong side of the fanboys? Oh cmon... give the TL moderators a little credit. He was banned for excessively spacing his post - something he's been banned before for doing. None of the other Jaedong fans have been banned so dont be so presumptuous.
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On June 24 2010 03:25 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2010 00:01 adelarge wrote:
Still not convinced that JD deserves #1. He is winning his regular games in PL. Flash is too. He qualified for OSL. Flash is already there as well. And...that's all. It would help if JD actually won some ace matches this month, instead of didn't play any (like the one against KT...to bad his own coach apparently wasn't confident in his ability to beat Flash). Again, your argument is very tenuous, for two reasons: 1) Playing and losing is not the same as not playing. It is worse than not playing. We don't know how Jaedong would have done had he played 5 ace matches this month, true, but the worst he could have done is lose them all, which would make his record this month similar to Flash's. The best he could have done is win them all, which would make his record much much better than Flash's--and there's at least as much justification to imagine that a hypothetical ace match would have been a win as that it would have been a loss. In practice, he might have lost some games, had he played them, but I doubt that anyone (besides yourself, possibly) thinks it very likely that Jaedong would have lost all 5 ace matches had he played them. 2) The above would be true even if regular games and ace games were entirely different beasts, like shooting and skiiing in a biathlon, but of course this is not the case. They are both games of Starcraft: both involve essentially the same skill set to win. Ace matches are more pressured, but that pressure applies equally to both players in the game, and besides, Jaedong and Flash are old hands at dealing with pressure. The distinction between ace matches and regular matches that you are struggling to draw is all but arbitrary. It's scarcely better than arguing, "Flash has only lost TvTs this month--but Jaedong hasn't even played any!" Show nested quote +
It's also quite interesting to look at the situation immediately before the MSL finals. Flash suffered some losses in PL and lost OSL finals against Effort. On the other hand Jaedong owned in PL and crushed his opposition on his way to MSL finals. If the PR should come right before the finals, I'm sure lot of people would scream for JD nr. 1 as well. Just look at the first Flash vs Jaedong pool. And we all here remember how the finals turned out. Flash read JD like a book and completely raped him in BO5, when he is supposedly the strongest player ever.
No one's arguing about last month's ranking. Flash was the definitive #1 at that time. At the same time, no one's arguing that Flash's results haven't dropped off significantly since then, whereas Jaedong has been on a tear. Show nested quote +
That being said, Flash performance this month isn't quite #1 deserving too lol. But I would still put Flash at first place. More than 8 months of such brutal dominance deserve some benefits of the doubt and the MSL finals is still too fresh to ignore despite some fans trying really hard to do so.
You're entitled to that opinion, and in fact, I'm sure Flash will get the benefit of the doubt, by being ranked above almost every other player in the league despite his mediocre record this month. I don't think that he deserves quite that much leeway against Jaedong, though, simply because Jaedong was also dominating during those months, second only to Flash. In other news, Jaedong's Elo in TLPD is now only 6 points away from Flash's! Remember when it was more like 150?
I agree that the argument isn't particulary strong, but you just have to take these things into account. Had KT been defeated 3:1 entire month, nobody could say a word against Flash at #1, because there wouldn't be any indication about his "ace match slump". If somebody told you Flash would've lose all the ace matches if he played them, you would think he is out of his mind.
Flash right know himself is the argument against judging ace match performance by normal matches, because he is still raping in normal games like JD.
If I put it really shortly: Yes, we know Flash is losing ace matches. No, we don't know how would Jaedong perform. It's very likely that better than Flash, but "very likely" shouldn't put player in #1 spot, especially if he was 3:0ed couple of weeks ago by the very same player he should now overtake.
I think you missunderstand me in one thing - I wasn't saying anything about last ranking. I was thinking about theoretical ranking just before MSL finals. Flash seemed very vulnerable, with two losses to CJ in PL and loss to Effort in OSL, while Jaedong was raping left and right. In fact, Jaedong is raping left and right for some time (as you said), but for change was raped by Flash.
On June 24 2010 04:35 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2010 00:01 adelarge wrote:
Still not convinced that JD deserves #1. He is winning his regular games in PL. Flash is too. He qualified for OSL. Flash is already there as well. And...that's all. It would help if JD actually won some ace matches this month, instead of didn't play any (like the one against KT...to bad his own coach apparently wasn't confident in his ability to beat Flash).
It's also quite interesting to look at the situation immediately before the MSL finals. Flash suffered some losses in PL and lost OSL finals against Effort. On the other hand Jaedong owned in PL and crushed his opposition on his way to MSL finals. If the PR should come right before the finals, I'm sure lot of people would scream for JD nr. 1 as well. Just look at the first Flash vs Jaedong pool. And we all here remember how the finals turned out. Flash read JD like a book and completely raped him in BO5, when he is supposedly the strongest player ever.
That being said, Flash performance this month isn't quite #1 deserving too lol. But I would still put Flash at first place. More than 8 months of such brutal dominance deserve some benefits of the doubt and the MSL finals is still too fresh to ignore despite some fans trying really hard to do so. Oh my god can you fanboy anymore? Hiya was sent as a sniper because everyone knew Flash was going to be practicing for Jaedong mostly, not because "Jaedong was too scared to play Flash." I've seen people say that as a joke but seriously?
Man I can fanboy you have no idea! I can even show you, if you find where I said "Jaedong was too scared to play Flash." Until then...
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People are thinking about this too much. If you were a progamer, who would you be more scared to play at the moment? Jaedong? Flash?
Yeah... not Flash.
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On June 24 2010 19:02 Paddington wrote:
Flash... has been playing poorly this month, going ~50% and losing horribly in Ace matches. One could argue that, based on current performance, does not deserve to be #1.
Flash isn't "losing horribly." His 50% record in the last two weeks is ass, but his play is anything but. People have figured him out and he's no longer invincible, but that doesn't mean he's a worse player than he was before. It just means his play needs refreshing.
I don't really buy this losing with style, and high level of play argument, although I can see where that would be a problem for Flash. Don't see this as an attack on flash, moreso a confirmation of his level of play, but you never really saw his ability to grind out close wins as his strong point, at least from my perspective. I saw Flash as the quintessential feast-or-famine player in games. More often than not, he would either come unstuck to early aggression, or absolutely steamroll his opponent mid-late game due to complete mechanical superiority and sheer power of control/multitasking.
I mention this because the tendency for him to be unable to win a large proportion of close, arm-wrestle type games has come to the fore. Yes, he weathered quite a bit of aggression and came through with a superb defensive effort in the MSL finals vs Dong, but I get the feeling that, when he gets pushed by a high level of play (and, to be fair, most other players wouldn't stack up to it either), he's fallen short, and hasn't really won the arm-wrestle games.
Now, this might be splitting hairs right now, but, I would rather a guy, who is touted as THE #1 player and a potential bonjwa to win the close games, as well as dominate the one-sided games. Being able to win ugly isn't such a bad thing, but not being able to do it sure as hell is.
EDIT: Misuse of Quote tags.
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On June 25 2010 02:50 cokencheese wrote:
People are thinking about this too much. If you were a progamer, who would you be more scared to play at the moment? Jaedong? Flash?
Yeah... not Flash.
It depends actually... and I think that's why it's so hard to say who's on top this month.
In anything BUT an ace match, Flash is still VERY scary. I doubt any progamer wants to face him in a BO3 or BO5 for a starleague. Even for a regular PL match, Flash is tearing it up. However, if it's a TvT in an ace match... Flash just can't seem to hold it. I think it's a mental block, but that's just an excuse. The fact of the matter is that Flash is dropping Ace matches, but ONLY ace matches. =/ So, I think people would rather take Flash in Ace, Jaedong in anything else.
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On June 25 2010 02:58 Paddington wrote:
I get the feeling that, when he gets pushed by a high level of play (and, to be fair, most other players wouldn't stack up to it either), he's fallen short, and hasn't really won the arm-wrestle games.
While his games tend to be more one-sided than the other S-class players, what you said just isn't true. He's shown in the past to be very capable of wresting out games from a massive disadvantage in TvT especially (ironic as that is at the moment) with his games versus Firebathero coming to mind immediately. In more recent memory, during the starleagues all of his games against Kal and Baby were close, and he won every one. He's not as scrappy a player as Jaedong, sure, but Flash's default method of play is steamroll so less of his wins are hard-won battles of will and more are just plain domination. This might come from the territory of playing Terran rather than Zerg, where looking untouchable is more common but comebacks are rarer.
On an unrelated note, here's hoping Bisu keeps up his good play and gets up there with JD and Flash soon. Hating on Protoss just isn't fun when they're all sucking so hard.
On June 25 2010 02:50 cokencheese wrote:
People are thinking about this too much. If you were a progamer, who would you be more scared to play at the moment? Jaedong? Flash?
Yeah... not Flash.
MSL group ceremony. Jaedong and Flash are seeds, Flash gets picked last. Yeah okay then.
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I don't really buy this losing with style, and high level of play argument, although I can see where that would be a problem for Flash. Don't see this as an attack on flash, moreso a confirmation of his level of play, but you never really saw his ability to grind out close wins as his strong point, at least from my perspective. I saw Flash as the quintessential feast-or-famine player in games. More often than not, he would either come unstuck to early aggression, or absolutely steamroll his opponent mid-late game due to complete mechanical superiority and sheer power of control/multitasking.
I mention this because the tendency for him to be unable to win a large proportion of close, arm-wrestle type games has come to the fore. Yes, he weathered quite a bit of aggression and came through with a superb defensive effort in the MSL finals vs Dong, but I get the feeling that, when he gets pushed by a high level of play (and, to be fair, most other players wouldn't stack up to it either), he's fallen short, and hasn't really won the arm-wrestle games.
Now, this might be splitting hairs right now, but, I would rather a guy, who is touted as THE #1 player and a potential bonjwa to win the close games, as well as dominate the one-sided games. Being able to win ugly isn't such a bad thing, but not being able to do it sure as hell is.
Paddington, that's actually what Flash is known for in TvT, being able to squeeze out close games, even when starting with disadvantages. Go take a look at his TvTs versus FBH as a great example.
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In addition, there are like massive threads on this very subject, about how it's easier for Flash to dominate TvT to a level not possible anymore in ZvZ, because of the nature of the matchup (lots of little skirmishes, the more skilled guy coming out on top, etc.), as well as his tenacious mentality of not giving up. Yes, we've seen him get blasted a few times on a TvZ when he 14ccs. But Flash is one of the most tenacious progamers out there, rarely ever gives up (just think about his recent proleague loss to Effort) and during his streak many of his wins were come from behind dude.
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On June 25 2010 01:46 Tianx wrote:
Of course how important the games are matter. If you go 2-6 in proleague but dominate both a starleague's final and semifinal 6-0, you look waaaaaay better than someone who goes 8-0 in proleague, barely scrapes into the final, and then gets dominated in a final 3-0 even though your record is strictly 'better.' This is of course ignoring play quality in the games itself, which is by far the most important factor.
Wait. Are you saying JD barely scraped into the final? Did you even watch any of his games last month? Every single one was absolute domination. Except the one game he lost to calm and the finals. Flash doesn't deserve to be No. 1 based on his slump. For a similar slump JD was promptly demoted from No. 2 of all places. No. 1 on the Power Rank should have higher standards IMHO.
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Flash has certainly won matches from behind, it's silly to claim otherwise. Touting matches against FireBatHero (who is fucking bad) is not a good example of such.
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Flash has certainly won matches from behind, it's silly to claim otherwise. Touting matches against FireBatHero (who is fucking bad) is not a good example of such.
Actually he was considered S-Class TvT for quite awhile. And, again, since you clearly have not seen them, they are a great example.
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On June 25 2010 08:26 WWJDD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2010 01:46 Tianx wrote:
Of course how important the games are matter. If you go 2-6 in proleague but dominate both a starleague's final and semifinal 6-0, you look waaaaaay better than someone who goes 8-0 in proleague, barely scrapes into the final, and then gets dominated in a final 3-0 even though your record is strictly 'better.' This is of course ignoring play quality in the games itself, which is by far the most important factor.
Wait. Are you saying JD barely scraped into the final? Did you even watch any of his games last month? Every single one was absolute domination. Except the one game he lost to calm and the finals. Flash doesn't deserve to be No. 1 based on his slump. For a similar slump JD was promptly demoted from No. 2 of all places. No. 1 on the Power Rank should have higher standards IMHO.
This was actually a hypothetical, unlike the fake ones on the last page. I wasn't saying Jaedong wasn't dominant, just that winning the important games counts for a lot more than winning the unimportant ones (which really should be obvious).
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On June 25 2010 02:29 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2010 01:47 InFdude wrote:
Just rename this shit to fanboy ranking. And what's with the guy who got banned for being on the wrong side of the fanboys? Oh cmon... give the TL moderators a little credit. He was banned for excessively spacing his post - something he's been banned before for doing. None of the other Jaedong fans have been banned so dont be so presumptuous.
I have a lot of faith in you TL guys. This is the only forum I visit, for anything, period. But I'll lose a lot of it if Flash is still #1 next month (assuming nothing changes in the next 5 days).
Not because of reasons I made myself, but because I read all the power rankings, and by you guys' own 'said/unsaid' rules, he shouldn't be #1 for July.
edit: Do I think what I said should be so clear as to be easily chosen? Well, not really. But I do think the line is far enough to one side this month that people will have to shake their heads at any other decision. It'd be unjust.
edit2: After more thinking, I guess I could be wrong, but the argument put forth better be dang convincing!
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On June 25 2010 01:46 Tianx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2010 00:19 infinity2k9 wrote:
Also about Flash losing games that don't matter, when did that ever come into it with the power rank? You can tell by the games Flash is hardly holding back because of the league situation, it's irrelevant to the individual performance. Of course how important the games are matter. If you go 2-6 in proleague but dominate both a starleague's final and semifinal 6-0, you look waaaaaay better than someone who goes 8-0 in proleague, barely scrapes into the final, and then gets dominated in a final 3-0 even though your record is strictly 'better.' This is of course ignoring play quality in the games itself, which is by far the most important factor.
The ranking is for this month though, and if KT thought the matches were unimportant they would not be sending out Flash every time.
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Oh man, back to the "only this month counts!" argument. Why is KT sending him? I don't know, because he has nothing better to do, and they probably keep him in form and let him have a shot at his 60-win goal.
If power ranking was about who had the best month, they would award it for that month at the end, not post a new one in the following. It's a ranking released monthly, and a little bad streak for Flash in the lull between starleagues and meaningful proleague games isn't enough for Jaedong to overcome probably the best 6 months anybody has ever had (with the possible exception of Nada).
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On June 25 2010 17:35 SimonB wrote:
Oh man, back to the "only this month counts!" argument. Why is KT sending him? I don't know, because he has nothing better to do, and they probably keep him in form and let him have a shot at his 60-win goal.
If power ranking was about who had the best month, they would award it for that month at the end, not post a new one in the following. It's a ranking released monthly, and a little bad streak for Flash in the lull between starleagues and meaningful proleague games isn't enough for Jaedong to overcome probably the best 6 months anybody has ever had (with the possible exception of Nada).
not "only this month counts!" but, the current month has always, in the past, counted the most. why this is changing nowadays is beyond me.
and anyway, i'm not so sure it is. i want to see july's power rank before i say anything much.
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Funny, Jaedong was dropped after his OSL win against Fantasy for having a subpar month. Flash should not be the exception to a rule "just because he's Flash."
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Fantasy in ro16 OSL again. No chance he wont be in PR now 
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 25 2010 19:21 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2010 17:35 SimonB wrote:
Oh man, back to the "only this month counts!" argument. Why is KT sending him? I don't know, because he has nothing better to do, and they probably keep him in form and let him have a shot at his 60-win goal.
If power ranking was about who had the best month, they would award it for that month at the end, not post a new one in the following. It's a ranking released monthly, and a little bad streak for Flash in the lull between starleagues and meaningful proleague games isn't enough for Jaedong to overcome probably the best 6 months anybody has ever had (with the possible exception of Nada). not "only this month counts!" but, the current month has always, in the past, counted the most. why this is changing nowadays is beyond me. and anyway, i'm not so sure it is. i want to see july's power rank before i say anything much. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. When deciding on where players go I always consider the current month and value those results the most. When I'm stuck with a tough decision between two players I look at what they did the previous month as well.
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EPT
