On June 23 2010 18:04 StylishVODs wrote: Funny thing is Flash is still above 70% in all matchups since it's only the TvT's that are troublesome right now and he had something like 73% in that matchup.
I'm pretty sure Flash would have won most opponents Jaedong faced, but that's just theorycrafting. Since I haven't been able to watch the games lately I can't really take part in the discussion though.
Jaedong is making a run for the nr1 spot for sure. But don't hate on flash too much, this is just one troublesome matchup and somehow only in the acematches, I'm sure he'll fix it soon.
Edit: Does anyone know how many wins Flash have in PL so far? Coz if it's close to 60 now maybe the record is jinxed, or maybe he's watching too much soccer haha.
He is at 56 wins now.
59 actually. (37 + 22 from WL).
Also interesting to note, Jaedong now has a better winning percentage than Flash for PL 09-10 regular season, and both of them are actually worse than Bisu last season.
No, it is 56. He had three wins in the Winners League Playoff Finals, but playoff games do not count towards the overall Proleague record.
Still not convinced that JD deserves #1. He is winning his regular games in PL. Flash is too. He qualified for OSL. Flash is already there as well. And...that's all. It would help if JD actually won some ace matches this month, instead of didn't play any (like the one against KT...to bad his own coach apparently wasn't confident in his ability to beat Flash).
It's also quite interesting to look at the situation immediately before the MSL finals. Flash suffered some losses in PL and lost OSL finals against Effort. On the other hand Jaedong owned in PL and crushed his opposition on his way to MSL finals. If the PR should come right before the finals, I'm sure lot of people would scream for JD nr. 1 as well. Just look at the first Flash vs Jaedong pool. And we all here remember how the finals turned out. Flash read JD like a book and completely raped him in BO5, when he is supposedly the strongest player ever.
That being said, Flash performance this month isn't quite #1 deserving too lol. But I would still put Flash at first place. More than 8 months of such brutal dominance deserve some benefits of the doubt and the MSL finals is still too fresh to ignore despite some fans trying really hard to do so.
On June 24 2010 00:01 adelarge wrote: Still not convinced that JD deserves #1. He is winning his regular games in PL. Flash is too. He qualified for OSL. Flash is already there as well. And...that's all. It would help if JD actually won some ace matches this month, instead of didn't play any (like the one against KT...to bad his own coach apparently wasn't confident in his ability to beat Flash).
Again, your argument is very tenuous, for two reasons: 1) Playing and losing is not the same as not playing. It is worse than not playing. We don't know how Jaedong would have done had he played 5 ace matches this month, true, but the worst he could have done is lose them all, which would make his record this month similar to Flash's. The best he could have done is win them all, which would make his record much much better than Flash's--and there's at least as much justification to imagine that a hypothetical ace match would have been a win as that it would have been a loss. In practice, he might have lost some games, had he played them, but I doubt that anyone (besides yourself, possibly) thinks it very likely that Jaedong would have lost all 5 ace matches had he played them.
2) The above would be true even if regular games and ace games were entirely different beasts, like shooting and skiiing in a biathlon, but of course this is not the case. They are both games of Starcraft: both involve essentially the same skill set to win. Ace matches are more pressured, but that pressure applies equally to both players in the game, and besides, Jaedong and Flash are old hands at dealing with pressure. The distinction between ace matches and regular matches that you are struggling to draw is all but arbitrary. It's scarcely better than arguing, "Flash has only lost TvTs this month--but Jaedong hasn't even played any!"
It's also quite interesting to look at the situation immediately before the MSL finals. Flash suffered some losses in PL and lost OSL finals against Effort. On the other hand Jaedong owned in PL and crushed his opposition on his way to MSL finals. If the PR should come right before the finals, I'm sure lot of people would scream for JD nr. 1 as well. Just look at the first Flash vs Jaedong pool. And we all here remember how the finals turned out. Flash read JD like a book and completely raped him in BO5, when he is supposedly the strongest player ever.
No one's arguing about last month's ranking. Flash was the definitive #1 at that time. At the same time, no one's arguing that Flash's results haven't dropped off significantly since then, whereas Jaedong has been on a tear.
That being said, Flash performance this month isn't quite #1 deserving too lol. But I would still put Flash at first place. More than 8 months of such brutal dominance deserve some benefits of the doubt and the MSL finals is still too fresh to ignore despite some fans trying really hard to do so.
You're entitled to that opinion, and in fact, I'm sure Flash will get the benefit of the doubt, by being ranked above almost every other player in the league despite his mediocre record this month. I don't think that he deserves quite that much leeway against Jaedong, though, simply because Jaedong was also dominating during those months, second only to Flash.
In other news, Jaedong's Elo in TLPD is now only 6 points away from Flash's! Remember when it was more like 150?
On June 24 2010 00:01 adelarge wrote: Still not convinced that JD deserves #1. He is winning his regular games in PL. Flash is too. He qualified for OSL. Flash is already there as well. And...that's all. It would help if JD actually won some ace matches this month, instead of didn't play any (like the one against KT...to bad his own coach apparently wasn't confident in his ability to beat Flash).
It's also quite interesting to look at the situation immediately before the MSL finals. Flash suffered some losses in PL and lost OSL finals against Effort. On the other hand Jaedong owned in PL and crushed his opposition on his way to MSL finals. If the PR should come right before the finals, I'm sure lot of people would scream for JD nr. 1 as well. Just look at the first Flash vs Jaedong pool. And we all here remember how the finals turned out. Flash read JD like a book and completely raped him in BO5, when he is supposedly the strongest player ever.
That being said, Flash performance this month isn't quite #1 deserving too lol. But I would still put Flash at first place. More than 8 months of such brutal dominance deserve some benefits of the doubt and the MSL finals is still too fresh to ignore despite some fans trying really hard to do so.
Oh my god can you fanboy anymore? Hiya was sent as a sniper because everyone knew Flash was going to be practicing for Jaedong mostly, not because "Jaedong was too scared to play Flash." I've seen people say that as a joke but seriously?
On June 24 2010 03:25 qrs wrote: In other news, Jaedong's Elo in TLPD is now only 6 points away from Flash's! Remember when it was more like 150?
If anything this saddens me because it shows that flash is clearly the best player in the world by far. It's not that JD has caught up to him, he's been hovering around the 2330 ELO mark for a while now. It's just that flash is not playing to his potential. Just to put it in perspective, JD made it to 4 finals over the course of 4 SL seasons. Flash made it to 4 finals over the course of two... That is redonkulous.
Also, watching both MSL finals, I also don't think that JD can beat flash in a standard macro game where they are roughly economically even in the beginning.
1. Jaedong (6-0) - He's rebounded beautifully from the 0-3 to Flash. Perfect play this month. 2. Flash (5-5) - Not the best record but he's playing better than anyone but JD. 3. Stork (5-2) - Didn't qualify for the MSL, but he's seeded in the OSL and I believe he's back in form. Worse stats than players below him but I'd say he's playing better. 4. Free (5-1) - More of an individual league specialist right now, but the only thing wrong with that is that he's never even reached a finals. 5. Bisu (5-1) - He's back, bitches. 6. fOrGG (4-1) - Seeded in OSL, qualified for MSL, supporting KT in PL. Might be overlooked. 7. Snow (4-2) - Maybe he'll drop if he gets a month full of Protoss and Zerg. 8. Baby (4-3) - Again, not the best record, but he's played fantastic matches specifically against Flash. 9. Fantasy (6-2) - Great record but hasn't always been pretty, and got lucky against Action a few times. 10. great (8-2) - Doesn't live up to his name but his record forces him to be on PR.
On June 24 2010 05:38 jalstar wrote: My predictions/thoughts:
1. Jaedong (6-0) - He's rebounded beautifully from the 0-3 to Flash. Perfect play this month. 2. Flash (5-5) - Not the best record but he's playing better than anyone but JD. 3. Stork (5-2) - Didn't qualify for the MSL, but he's seeded in the OSL and I believe he's back in form. Worse stats than players below him but I'd say he's playing better. 4. Free (5-1) - More of an individual league specialist right now, but the only thing wrong with that is that he's never even reached a finals. 5. Bisu (5-1) - He's back, bitches. 6. fOrGG (4-1) - Seeded in OSL, qualified for MSL, supporting KT in PL. Might be overlooked. 7. Snow (4-2) - Maybe he'll drop if he gets a month full of Protoss and Zerg. 8. Baby (4-3) - Again, not the best record, but he's played fantastic matches specifically against Flash. 9. Fantasy (6-2) - Great record but hasn't always been pretty, and got lucky against Action a few times. 10. great (8-2) - Doesn't live up to his name but his record forces him to be on PR.
CBNC: Sea, Hiya, Leta, Jangbi, Light
I think you are really underrating Fantasy's scrappy play this month. Most of his matches have been on his weakest matchup and he is still producing big wins for SKT. Compared to last round, SKT is doing much better (they look the best out of any team), and a big reason of that has to do with Fantasy's performance. He is also about to qualify for OSL (anyone who thinks Brave will win needs a reality check). Stork should not be that high since he did drop out of the MSL and Free's PL play has not exactly been inspiring. I agree with Forgg being overlooked, he is playing some surprisingly good SC right now for the first time in forever.
On June 24 2010 06:03 Mindcrime wrote: Bisu is too high.
His best win since coming back is still against roro. :/
setzer makes a good point for fantasy over Bisu (although SKT seems to be moving back towards Bisu as ace) but I can't see how any player not named Jaedong, Flash, Stork, or Free played better this month.
On June 24 2010 05:38 jalstar wrote: My predictions/thoughts:
1. Jaedong (6-0) - He's rebounded beautifully from the 0-3 to Flash. Perfect play this month. 2. Flash (5-5) - Not the best record but he's playing better than anyone but JD. 3. Stork (5-2) - Didn't qualify for the MSL, but he's seeded in the OSL and I believe he's back in form. Worse stats than players below him but I'd say he's playing better. 4. Free (5-1) - More of an individual league specialist right now, but the only thing wrong with that is that he's never even reached a finals. 5. Bisu (5-1) - He's back, bitches. 6. fOrGG (4-1) - Seeded in OSL, qualified for MSL, supporting KT in PL. Might be overlooked. 7. Snow (4-2) - Maybe he'll drop if he gets a month full of Protoss and Zerg. 8. Baby (4-3) - Again, not the best record, but he's played fantastic matches specifically against Flash. 9. Fantasy (6-2) - Great record but hasn't always been pretty, and got lucky against Action a few times. 10. great (8-2) - Doesn't live up to his name but his record forces him to be on PR.
CBNC: Sea, Hiya, Leta, Jangbi, Light
I think you are really underrating Fantasy's scrappy play this month. Most of his matches have been on his weakest matchup and he is still producing big wins for SKT. Compared to last round, SKT is doing much better (they look the best out of any team), and a big reason of that has to do with Fantasy's performance. He is also about to qualify for OSL (anyone who thinks Brave will win needs a reality check). Stork should not be that high since he did drop out of the MSL and Free's PL play has not exactly been inspiring. I agree with Forgg being overlooked, he is playing some surprisingly good SC right now for the first time in forever.
I'm assuming you'd put Fantasy above Stork, but who else? As you said, Free hasn't been there in PL, Bisu is newly back, fOrGG doesn't have enough games for top 5, Snow is still a one matchup guy, Baby is also out of the MSL, and great is out of the OSL. Effort and Kal are slumping. How do you not put Stork in the top 5?
Stork is my favourite player ever, but you cannot underestimate his MST loss as a major decrease in power (POWER rankings reflect the most dominant players at the time). Plus he has not played his Ro36 match yet, so he is in danger of becoming an SPL force only.
What do Flash, Jaedong, Effort, Kal, Free, Snow, Sea, Bisu and Fantasy all have that Stork doesn't? Both MSL and OSL. Obviously not all of those players should necessarily be above Stork, but unless you value SPL as several times the importance of OSL/MSL, Stork not quite "powerful" enough. Even great could be ranked higher as he only lost in the OSL in the Ro36, where Stork has yet to play so you can't hold that against him.
Stork even lost to Sea, so you'd really have to only care about SPL to hold Sea's 2-2 SPL record so much against him as to take him out of the top 10.
Sea is playing pretty good right now, and while his past individual leagues have been met with failure, I think this time there is some hope. All of his matchups are solid, and his games against Great showed me he is really out to prove his critics wrong. Snow is playing well enough to keep his spot. He made it out of a really tough MSL group and is a very deadly PvT player. His PvZ is better now than his past statistics might suggest. Based on that, I think 6th spot would be a reasonable place for Stork, imo.
On June 24 2010 05:38 jalstar wrote: My predictions/thoughts:
1. Jaedong (6-0) - He's rebounded beautifully from the 0-3 to Flash. Perfect play this month. 2. Flash (5-5) - Not the best record but he's playing better than anyone but JD. 3. Stork (5-2) - Didn't qualify for the MSL, but he's seeded in the OSL and I believe he's back in form. Worse stats than players below him but I'd say he's playing better. 4. Free (5-1) - More of an individual league specialist right now, but the only thing wrong with that is that he's never even reached a finals. 5. Bisu (5-1) - He's back, bitches. 6. fOrGG (4-1) - Seeded in OSL, qualified for MSL, supporting KT in PL. Might be overlooked. 7. Snow (4-2) - Maybe he'll drop if he gets a month full of Protoss and Zerg. 8. Baby (4-3) - Again, not the best record, but he's played fantastic matches specifically against Flash. 9. Fantasy (6-2) - Great record but hasn't always been pretty, and got lucky against Action a few times. 10. great (8-2) - Doesn't live up to his name but his record forces him to be on PR.
CBNC: Sea, Hiya, Leta, Jangbi, Light
I can say definitively that Plexa's putting Flash at 1 and Jaedong at 2 for the next PR. Stork, free, great, Snow, BaBy should all be there though. Sea too probably. Lol Light.
EPT
