Things went as expected. LG-IMMvp looked to cheese for an answer, ST_PartinG was invincible once he had storm, and the three time champion was more collected than the first time semi-finalist. It all went as foreseen, except the final result. Mvp defeated PartinG by a score of 3 – 1, a result that can no longer be called an upset. Doubts followed Mvp around ever since his alarming decline towards the end of 2011, but now that he has reached his fifth GSL final, it seems ridiculous that his ability was ever in doubt. As Koreans are fond of saying, class is forever.
Mvp surprised viewers from the very first game, going for a very standard macro build on Entombed Valley, a map where PartinG and other Protoss players have had considerable success playing macro games. However, that didn't end up being a factor at all, as Mvp detected that PartinG was cutting too many corners while switching to templar tech after a colossus opening, and simply pulled his SCVs to attack with his infantry and medivacs at an opportune timing. The attack couldn't have gone better for Mvp, as he caught PartinG unwisely moving out on the map with his small army, and easily won the deciding engagement on wide open ground.
After showing an impromptu all-in in game one, Mvp came out with a very blatant all-in build on Ohana by deploying the infamous 1/1/1. Though it had been briefly left for dead, the legendary 1/1/1 was returned to its former glory in the hands of a defiant veteran.
PartinG put together the correct combination of units, and may have been able to break Mvp's slow push. However, just like the 1/1/1's of old, Mvp only needed to goad PartinG into making one mistake in order to take the game. PartinG positioned his troops incorrectly as he tried to bust Mvp's position, and his immortals were mowed down by marines, busting any chance he had of winning the game instead.
By the look on his face, it seemed that PartinG's spirit had broken under the weight of being two games down. Still, what would a PartinG PvT series be without a single game with devastating storms? The third game on Cloud Kingdom was PartinG at his best, going up safely to three bases, putting together a perfect combination of units, and running rampant over a powerless Terran army. In that moment, there was hope for PartinG, that he might be able to make his games, and the series, go long.
Unfortunately for PartinG, Mvp had no desire to repeat game three. In the final set on Metropolis, Mvp ended the game early with a simple four medivac drop. It was a perfectly ordinary four medivac drop at a perfectly ordinary timing, one that PartinG would have seen hundreds if not thousands of times. However, because of nerves, or perhaps because of Mvp's trickery, PartinG was unable to stop Mvp's dropships from unloading their deadly cargo inside his base. PartinG's troops ran to their death in small, weak clumps, unable to bring their full firepower to bear on Mvp's MMM. In a less than thrilling ending, that one drop was able to end the game and the series.
In the post match interview, Mvp said that he was fully confident in his ability to defeat PartinG in a long, maxed-out macro game. Opportunities to end the games early had merely presented themselves to him, and such speedy wins were not an integral part of his plan. His crushing loss in the longest game of the series runs contrary to his confidence, but at this point in time, it is meaningless to question him any longer. The King does as he pleases, and his word may as well be law.
Squirtle Used Skill! It's Super Effective! – Squirtle 3 – 0 HerO
With a 3 – 0 victory over Liquid`HerO, ST_Squirtle improved to 14 – 1 in Code S Season Two and stepped one series closer to achieving the best run in GSL history. Already being the player with the best one month stretch in all competitions, Squirtle needs only a championship to make this run the stuff of legends. Squirtle also improved his GSL PvP record to 13 – 1, suggesting that he is the only one who actually understands the match-up, while the rest of us claiming that luck plays a significant role could stand to play a few thousand more games.
Though the score said 3 – 0, the content of the games showed that HerO wasn't completely overwhelmed. The first set on Daybreak resembled a game of high-speed chess, with HerO blocking Squirtle's DT's, then going for DT's of his own, and Squirtle holding those off with timely robotics tech. Squirtle ended up making the winning move, choosing to go for a chargelot + archon combination while HerO was securing his natural with an immortal based composition. HerO's forces was horribly outmatched in terms of cost efficiency, and Squirtle was able to take the first game.
HerO nearly struck back in game two, where Squirtle was uncharacteristically sloppy in applying early game pressure, and seemed like he would surely lose to HerO's 4-gate prism counter-attack. However, HerO choose an unwise plan of attack, ferrying troops up four at a time with his warp-prism while Squirtle continued to force-field the ramp. This allowed Squirtle to eliminate HerO's troops four at a time, and by the time he ran out of force-fields, he had accumulated just enough troops to fend off the remainder of HerO's army.
Having expended so much money on his attack, HerO took a risk by going for a fast expansion to try and make up for his disadvantage. It was to no avail, as Squirtle made the correct move by attacking once he had a colossus to break down force-fields, and HerO was forced to GG out after vainly attempting a base trade.
The final game was surprisingly one-sided, and served as the example of 'lucky' PvP many had expected. HerO went for blink stalkers and a relatively fast expansion, whereas Squirtle scouted out HerO's plan with an elusive probe and decided to go for DTs. HerO never had a chance of beating Squirtle's strategy, but it didn't help that he exacerbated the situation with a flubbed force-field on his ramp, a mistake that was too easy to see as a result of the pressure breaking his composure. HerO GG'd out, and Squirtle confirmed his place in the finals.
After the match, Squirtle seemed as determined as ever to win one more series and take home a championship. Squirtle may not know what he has to gain (an ID change, he considered), but having felt the pain of falling just short of a championship at IPL4, he at least knows what he has to lose.
Game of the night: Squirtle vs HerO, Game One
While the stories behind Mvp and Squirtle are some of the most compelling we've seen in the GSL, their semi-final series were on the dull side. Mvp's series consisted of fairly one-sided games, while Squirtle's games were not the most suspenseful. Squirtle and HerO's first game on Daybreak was probably the most well played game of the night, where you could see two players planning and executing on a high level.
Mvp: Honestly I thought it would be very tough, everyone's having a hard time playing TvP. I felt that it was hard as I practiced, so I'm happy to make it to the finals. It feels like it's my first finals in a long time, so I'm looking forward to it.
This is your fifth finals. Does it feel any different to you?
More than it being my fifth final, it's very meaningful to me that it's my first final in the 2012 season. I've been doing poorly this year, not able to reach a final, so I'm very happy to reach a GSL final.
You're in poor condition these days, even traveling to foreign tournaments. How does that affect you?
Honestly, my condition is always bad, so that's not even really on my mind anymore. It's been a while since my condition has been bad, 6 months to a year. Though I won today, I wasn't happy with my play. I think that's because of my bad condition, but there's nothing I can do about health problems.
PartinG has been known as a Terran killer lately, and people thought you would have a hard time against him. How did you prepare for PartinG?
I didn't really prepare specific strategies for him, I just came thinking I would do whatever. It wasn't so much preparation, more that I would do whatever I wanted once I was here, and that worked out well.
PartinG's been very good at stopping Terran attacks that are aimed at hurting him before he puts together his composition. You did a good job at breaking his defenses today, how did you do it?
In the past, PartinG held off the attacks and won all of his games, but I think the reason I was able to win today was because PartinG was overconfident. From the RO8, he kept saying if I was his semi-final opponent, he felt he would go to the finals. From then, I knew I would win. If a one has too much confidence, there's a tendency to topple oneself. I think that factored in too heavily, and I won easily.
This is a rare occurrence, but you actually had the support of the fans this time around, from people who wanted you to stop a PvP final. How do you feel about being in that situation?
Yes, a PvP would have been as successful, and it wouldn't have been as fun, so a lot of people wanted me to win. But for me, I had a lot of personal ambition to make it to the finals, so I tried that much harder, and I don't think that kind of public support really affected me, I just wanted it badly for myself.
You're going to face the winner of Squirtle or HerO. Who do you prefer to face?
Both players have difficult styles to play against, so I wouldn't like either player. But I know Squirtle personally, while barely know HerO at all. Also, I've lost to Squirtle once in the GSTL finals, so I think it will be fun to play against him like that.
The finals is at AX Korea, does that mean anything special to you?
It's very close to my house, so I think it will help me manage my condition. Also, it's a place where I've won one championship, so I have confidence I can win there again.
You pulled SCVs for an attack in game one today. What did you see that triggered that attack?
PartinG had a lot fewer troops than I expected, so I felt that if I attacked together with SCVs, I could win. I scanned and checked his troops, and decided on the attack.
You used a 1/1/1 in the second game. Did you use it because you thought it was a good build on Ohana, or was it just an on the fly move?
Honestly, I didn't come with a fixed strategy for game two. So I didn't really know what I would do, but after I won the first game, I felt that if I could win the second game with a 1/1/1, it would make PartinG crumble mentally. So I used the strategy, and it worked, and I was able to play the remaining games more easily.
You used standard macro builds in three of your games, even though PartinG has famously not lost games that go over 25 minutes. Were you confident in your ability to win long games?
I had full confidence in my ability to win in long games. I lost game three because my troops were cut off, but I think if that didn't happen, I would have won the game. In game three, because I was winning 2 – 0, I think I was a little bit careless, and sloppy troop movements let part of my army get cut off.
No one has won four GSLs. Do you think you can do it?
It's something I want very much, but I've been on a decline lately. So instead of thinking about the four titles, so I want to prepare with a focus on winning this one series ahead of me. If I start thinking about four titles, might start getting nervous and not be able to play up to my skill, so I want to play in calm setting.
Every season you made it to the finals before, you looked extremely strong on the way there. This season, you've been in danger, and not all so stable. How were you able to squeeze through?
This is something I always feel, and this is something that other players feel as well. Some guys, they're just gonna succeed. I think that kind of thing exists. Some days, everything goes your way, and sometimes nothing works out. Like the last season, I lost in the RO16, and that was one of those days where nothing worked. But this season, it's one that everything works out, everything goes well no matter what I do.
On a different topic, existing BW teams are going to be switching to SC II. Fans are excited about this, talking about what would happen if Flash played Mvp in SC2... What are your feelings on this situation?
I think it will be fun to play Flash.
But recently, I've read a lot of articles on SC2 transition and the hybrid Proleague, a format where if you play in one game, you have to play the other game the next time you're up. That, honestly, I think from the perspective of an SC1 pro-gamer, it will be extremely hard. When I first started SC2, I sometimes played a few games of SC1. But really, the interface, hotkeys, etc. are so different. So my skill level really fell a lot in SC1. But the current SC1 players will have to practice for both games, so it will be really hard, so I'm disappointed about that. I think it was too much of a selfish, top-down decision without thinking about the players, so I think it's a bad idea.
Any final comments?
Thanks to my teammates Seed, Yonghwa, Ready, Anyppi for helping me practice, and Oz, MC, and San from outside IM. Also, thanks to my mom, dad and sister who always cheer me on from home. My parents really want to see me on the finals stage, and I haven't been able to go to the finals much. I'm very proud that I was able to go to the finals this season.
Thanks to our head coach who's always working so hard.
Also, yesterday, Nestea was eliminated, but I believe that he will come up to Code S through the Up/Downs. I hope we can play in Code S together next season.
It's your first Code S finals. How do you feel about getting there?
Squirtle: When I started the season, getting to the RO16 was my goal, but somehow I've come this far. It's like a dream.
You've always been good in GSTL, but you haven't been that successful or known in the GSL. What kind of meaning does this GSL have for you?
People have always said that I'm good in GSTL, but I've always lost in the GSL, and I had a kind of GSL phobia. But I always practiced hard, so I think that hard work is finally paying off.
You've been a pro-gamer for a long time. A lot of pros say that their goal is to reach the finals stage of an individual tournament.
Yes, the dream of every pro is to stand on that stage.
Every time I lost, that dream seemed to drift further away, and I thought 'It's not meant for me.' But because I didn't give up and kept working hard, I think it's paid off. The most important thing was to never give up.
You looked very emotional in the booth, what were you thinking after you won?
To be honest, like I said, thoughts of reaching the finals had been slowly disappearing from my mind. So when I knew that I reached the finals, it was truly as if a dream had come true.
This is the last step. Back in IPL4, you played something like 49 games and barely missed out on first place. How does that affect your mindset going into the finals?
At IPL, when I lost to aLive, I really felt how disappointing it is to lose in a finals. This time, I will practice very hard so I can win.
HerO was also on a hot streak lately, did you think you could win 3 – 0?
I thought that if I won the first game, I would win 3 – 0. If I lost the first game, it would be a tough series, and it would be 3 – 2 even if I won.
Looking at your record, you have an amazing PvP record. You've lost a couple of individual games, but you've never lost a series. What's your secret?
Honestly, I did want to keep my 100% record. Normally I don't care about stats, but since everyone kept talking about my PvP win rate being 100%. But to get such good results, it's not just myself who has to do well. The players on my team, Ace, NaNiwa, SaSe, and Tiger all helped me out, so that's why my Protoss vs Protoss is strong. It's not just my skill – I really received a lot of help.
Hypothetically speaking, would you have preferred PartinG over Mvp in the finals?
Honestly I would have wanted PartinG to reach the finals, but if you think about feeling comfortable in the finals, I prefer players from other teams. I really don't like team kills, so I feel a bit better than if it were PartinG,
You said yourself that PartinG is the best PvT player. But Mvp won today – how did you feel watching that?
Mvp's has won three championships, and he definitely has 'class.' You can tell at a glance that he is very good at planning for multi-game series.
But I think I have experience now, and I'm not behind him in my ability to strategize for series, so I think I'm full capable of winning.
Mvp has been in four finals, winning three and losing one. He's a very strong player in the finals. How are you going to prepare for factors outside of the game?
If I prepared myself, I would have been uncertain, and there's a big experience gap in playing on the finals stage. But I believe in the Protoss players on my team, and I think if we all practice together, I'll be able to win.
Bomber is also on your team. How does he help you?
In the Startale house, he's the player I've talked with the most. We share the same room, and I talk with him the most about the game.
Do you have any inclination to change your ID if you win? To something more evolved?
Yes, I'm thinking about. If I win....
Turtle King? (Blastoise)
Yes, maybe.
So you're Wartortle now?
Yes, because I haven't won a championship.
What do your parents think about your run?
My parents always tell me to relax before my games, and that it's not the end even if I a lose a game. I've made them wait too long now, from the days I was a SC1 progamer. I kept telling them I could reach a final, though I was really hurting inside. Now that I'm there for real, and they are coming to watch me, I will win no matter what.
You mentioned you want to use a mothership in the finals...
Fans still remember the game from the GSTL finals, so I want to play a game that's even greater than that, not just win the series. I want to show them games that are fit for the finals. But I don't think I'll be able to get a mothership out against a player of Mvp's caliber.
Any final comments?
Thanks to our sponsors Joygear, Red Bull, and BenQ.
When I was preparing for TaeJa, I asked NaNiwa for a lot of advice. But he was a bit miffed that I didn't mention him in the interview after I won. So I want to tell him I'm really thankful, and also to SaSe who helped me a lot for this match.
Also, Tiger played over 200 games with me, so I'm really, really thankful to him. Finally, Ace helped me practice until 4AM on the last day, so I'm thankful to everyone.
Damn, it's so hard to pick one of these two players to root against. Two very different but very interesting back stories and they both seem so deserving of the title! Hoping for some epic games!
I wish I could have watched these games live! Time to bust out the vods then. Personally, I'll be rooting for Squirtle in these upcoming finals after my favorite HerO lost, since I was a fan of Squirtle before he was cool. *hipster glasses*
On May 11 2012 12:39 wasabay wrote: I didn't think Mvp went for any cheese at all for all 4 games
I agree that he didn't use cheese builds, but games 1 and 2 were certainly very risky, if not all-ins - pulling scvs and 1/1/1
In terms of who to root for, they both have compelling stories, but I think I'm more excited for Squirtle...I still remember the first time I played Pokemon Red, I picked squirtle, fun times...
On May 11 2012 12:39 wasabay wrote: I didn't think Mvp went for any cheese at all for all 4 games
He did "timing attacks" in all the games he won. The game he lost was the game he let Squirtle get high templar out on the field. I predict the finals will be mostly build order ownage unfortunately.
Every time I lost, that dream seemed to drift further away, and I thought 'It's not meant for me.' But because I didn't give up and kept working hard, I think it's paid off. The most important thing was to never give up.
I got choked up reading this. Even though I wanted HerO to win, I can't deny that Squirtle's GSL run has truly been inspirational. I hope he wins.
"His crushing loss in the longest game of the series runs contrary to his confidence, but at this point in time, it is meaningless to question him any longer."
You can't use that game as an example of misguided late game confidence vP....his army was caught out of position split in two. Parting didn't have to do much at all to crush it.
Unlucky for Hero, despite playing well he gets crushed...PvP
On May 11 2012 12:39 Footler wrote: Damn, it's so hard to pick one of these two players to root against. Two very different but very interesting back stories and they both seem so deserving of the title! Hoping for some epic games!
Don't root against them! root for both of them and an INSANE finals!! :D
God I don't know who to root for. My head says Squirtle but my heart says Mvp. I just can't help but love the guy. He makes up for injury with just totally superior skill.
On May 11 2012 12:39 wasabay wrote: I didn't think Mvp went for any cheese at all for all 4 games
He didn't.
Game 2? 1/1/1 all in? The other games weren't cheese but how is 1/1/1'ing without an expansion not cheese?
All-ins and cheese are two different things. 6 pool is cheese. Cannon rushing is cheese. 2rax with only 10 scvs is cheese. Having 70 supply worth of units with an attack beginning at the 10 minute mark is not cheese.
Squirtle has been playing so freaking well lately, but I just can't get over the feeling that somehow MVP is destined to win...
I just hope that MVP doesn't get caught up in the whole "provide entertaining macro games against your opponent because it's good for the viewers" BS. Bitbybit, 1/1/1, 3rax SD, whatever, just win baby win...
Hmm, to be honest, I think that Hero's play looked like he was sleepy or sick. Poor micro, and iffy to ok decision making. Squirtle also looked excellent IMO.
Also I don't think that the cloud kingdom game was a result of parting's amazing macro play and decision making, more catching MVP's split army because MVP right clicked in the wrong place, leading to a large portion of MVP's army dying, and not having enough time to rebuild his strength.
On May 11 2012 12:39 wasabay wrote: I didn't think Mvp went for any cheese at all for all 4 games
He didn't.
Game 2? 1/1/1 all in? The other games weren't cheese but how is 1/1/1'ing without an expansion not cheese?
Wow lol you seriously have a misguided view on what cheese is. If 1 base play equates to cheese does that mean most PvP's are cheese games? 1/1/1 without expo is NOT cheese its effectively an all-in.
MVP's 4th championship, hopefully these games will truely shape how terrans are going to deal with what most of us dont understand in the matchup, GL <333
So hard to choose....want to see MVP declared the greatest by winning 4 GSLs..see that it is possible. But Squirle's protoss...and what he said about promising a finals to his parents and hurting inside coz he wasnt able to before.... As a mom myself, i want him to win it now for his parents.
I think that the 3rd game between MVP and Parting may have yielded different results [or at least have been (potentially significantly) less one-sided] had Parting not caught MVP's units out of position as he did. Parting was not conscious of the fact that a substantial portion of MVP's army was out of position until he had actually begun to engage. The timing of his push simply coincided with the moment of MVP's 'sloppiness'; in this way, I believe luck (in Parting's favor), which would not have had the potential to come to fruition had MVP not fumbled with his positioning as he did (mind you, MVP was unaware of Parting's push, but a player should never leave his/her self in a vulnerable position at any point in a game), to have been a significant factor in MVP's downfall; i.e., MVP defeated himself in that engagement more than anything else, and his blunder was ultimately the cause of his own demise. My intention is not to discredit Parting any, and, as always, this is indeed an epic write-up; but, in neglecting to mention said blunder by MVP, I find the description in the OP to give the (imo, false) impression that MVP cannot keep up with Parting in a macro game, when I do not believe that this was ever 'given a chance' to be proven.
I don't like the suggestion that Squirtle is on the way to the best run in GSL history. Nestea already won a GSL going completely undefeated. How can something be better than undefeated?
While I obviously agree with Parting's late game being insane, I find it pretty silly that you declare "In the post match interview, Mvp said that he was fully confident in his ability to defeat PartinG in a long, maxed-out macro game...His crushing loss in the longest game of the series runs contrary to his confidence" and you talk about how excellently Parting played in game 3, without even mentioning that it was decided the moment Mvp was moving his army and half of it pathed on top of the cliff and half went below. I don't know what would have happened had his units moved how he intended, but it didn't take a Parting to win the game when the half the terrans army begins the engagement against a wall.
On May 11 2012 13:26 jarf1337 wrote: I don't like the suggestion that Squirtle is on the way to the best run in GSL history. Nestea already won a GSL going completely undefeated. How can something be better than undefeated?
There are more games in Code-S then there were when Nestea went undefeated, the starting group stages were best of 1, they're now best of 3, hence he's gone on a larger streak then Nestea did in terms of games as long as he wins his first game against MVP.
On May 11 2012 13:26 jarf1337 wrote: I don't like the suggestion that Squirtle is on the way to the best run in GSL history. Nestea already won a GSL going completely undefeated. How can something be better than undefeated?
There are more games in Code-S then there were when Nestea went undefeated, the starting group stages were best of 1, they're now best of 3, hence he's gone on a larger streak then Nestea did in terms of games as long as he wins his first game against MVP.
Either way, I think Mvp's August run is certainly still the most impressive run in terms of who he had to beat.
There should be a book written about MVP, the book would be a all about how much he struggled to stay at the top. I mean if MVP win's this it will be my no means a clean sweeping victory it will be a hard earned BRUTAL victory
On May 11 2012 14:06 Acidosis wrote: Mvp vs. Squirtle final, the battle of all-ins.
MVP all-in'd in only two of the four matches he played, while PvP's are inherently full of all-ins. Therefore, there is no indication of how Squirtle will play PvT in the finals, since his usual two-base timings in that matchup clearly won't work against how MVP currently plays (powering on two bases himself).
I think there will be some heavy meta-gaming going on, so I don't feel like there will be many all-ins due to that fact.
I do miss where MVP made a critical mistake in game 3 with half his units being killed by sloppy play. This is not saying MVP can't keep up macro as you suggesting though. He did make a huge mistake with that and i believe it should be writen down.
On May 11 2012 14:12 aznball123 wrote: Cheese is so overrated, foreigners call everything cheese if it's not standard. I'm not even a Mvp fan, but he did some brilliant timings.
This thread is showing the fact that some people still don't understand the definition of 'all-in' vs. 'cheese', and conflate the two. I think everyone understands the definition of 'all-in', but not cheese. Cheese is a playstyle that hinges upon the opponent not scouting properly or correctly. MVP was playing standard in 3 out of the 4 games, but decided to all-in in the first game, even though he was playing standard.
In fact, I would argue that what Parting did in game 1, where he was going Colossi, then cut corners by dumping a large amount of resources in trying to tech-switch to HT's on two-bases, is cheesy by definition (but not all-in, since he was planning to take a third to support such an army). MVP scouted what he was doing, and made the right call. MVP was going for a third base in that game, and had he done so, he would have lost. Therefore, Parting was cheesy but not all-in, while MVP was all-in, but not cheesy.
I am definitely SO HAPPY for MVP. It is incredible how much of a champion he is, mentally speaking. He doesn't seem to fear what other people fear, really well prepared in each of his set and having the winner attitude. I'm very glad to see his control & brillance in play have been preserved for yet another season.
I'm happy no matter the result of the finals really. Mvp takes his fourth championship and proves himself to be the greatest sc2 player of all time, even if he loses he's been in five finals and proven he is still relevant in the scene after the doomsayers were saying he had dropped off for good. Also fighting as the last hope of the Terrans from the ro4 onward.
Or we can finally crown the " best Protoss in the world " without having to use foreign tournaments to argue who is best, which seems to change every two weeks with the number of foreign tournaments going on. Squirtle royal-roading to become the first Protoss GSL champion in over a year and stealing the presidency from MC is an even greater story perhaps.
No matter what happens it should be an amazing finals.
I'm even more of an MVP fan now, and he has become my all time favorite Terrran player. No matter the situation, in spite of his injury and even with his most recent performances, MVP still manages to find the strength to play to the best of his ability and win games even when some of us didn't even give him a second chance. Admirable, incredible.
I really liked the Squirtle interview and the personality behind it. So, I wish him all the best for the finals. Grats to MVP for his great inner strength.
Finally, thanks to the teamliquid esports team for the very nice articles. YOU ARE GREAT!!!!
On May 11 2012 13:26 jarf1337 wrote: I don't like the suggestion that Squirtle is on the way to the best run in GSL history. Nestea already won a GSL going completely undefeated. How can something be better than undefeated?
There are more games in Code-S then there were when Nestea went undefeated, the starting group stages were best of 1, they're now best of 3, hence he's gone on a larger streak then Nestea did in terms of games as long as he wins his first game against MVP.
He's played better opponents than Nestea did too.
My parents really want to see me on the finals stage, and I haven't been able to go to the finals much.
lolwut. I mean I get what he means but not getting into the first GSL finals of a year is hardly disappointing.
Squirtle comes across as such a nice guy in his interview, I mean MVP does too but that guys won like infinite+1 KRW (about $100000), I might have to root for him. When he talks about feeling like the dream his slipping away you have to wonder how many Korean progamers feel like that, it would be nice if someone new could live the dream.
Good to see that Naniwa and SaSe are both giving and taking from the ST house, maybe all Korean teams should start employing Swedish coaches, MMA uses ThorZaIN's builds and Squirtle was using SaSe's 2 gate opening vs HerO.
I've enjoyed Parting play, his style is brilliant too watch but I've always been an MVP fanboy since he knocked out IdrA in the second GSL, so I was rooting for him.
With the finals, Squirtle has been playing amazing, but again I want MVP to win this and show everyone that he's the best Terran in the world. Not some flavour of the month like MMA, MKP, Jjakji or SuperNova.
Winning a GSL with exploding wrists would be quite an accomplishment.
Great writeup! I was rooting for MVP, but now that I read about Squirtle and think back to how many amazing games and what a long way he's gone to get here I'm slowly starting to want him to win instead.
To me this feels like the most intense GSL finals in terms of story. Really looking forward to this!
Thanks for the awesome writeup. It was an interesting semi final but in the old GSL style... one sided. Also even in the Hero vs Squirtle series there have been situations where I thought "uhm Hero can do it!". I am cheering for MVP. Terran has to stay strong and aggressive in the early game
So excited for this finals. Squirtle's meticulous preparation and nerves will arm him well to deliver a great series about MVP. Hopefully we'll see it decided by more than just 2 base colossus or early timing attacks from either player - hoping for a strong mixture of early-mid-late game play which lets both players show it all off!.
(especially since if squirtle can work on that late game / macromanagement, damnnnnnn. He's been delivering this entire season. Shame for parting and Hero though, really letting the pressure get to them : ()
I'm so looking forward to this final. Both will be battling hard and should give us some amazing games. Over all i really hope squirtle wins. I really like his and partings style of protoss play.
On May 11 2012 13:26 jarf1337 wrote: I don't like the suggestion that Squirtle is on the way to the best run in GSL history. Nestea already won a GSL going completely undefeated. How can something be better than undefeated?
There are more games in Code-S then there were when Nestea went undefeated, the starting group stages were best of 1, they're now best of 3, hence he's gone on a larger streak then Nestea did in terms of games as long as he wins his first game against MVP.
Nestea did come off a 4-0 final the month before his undefeated run which I guess could be counted into the streak.
Either way, Squirtle has lost more this season than infinitly times the amount Nestea lost in GSL July 2011 Going undefeated should be a more impressive run than going X-1.
Squirtle gets too little acknowledgment for what he accomplished so far. The most impressive run 2012 and yet, everybody is talking about how incredibly good MVP is, who constantly 1/2 bases in the last two rounds (just look at the MC comments: everytime he does an all in, it's because he can't play macro games. everytime a terran does that, he obviously read his opponents..). I really wish squirtle to win, so everybody realises who good he actually is
"But recently, I've read a lot of articles on SC2 transition and the hybrid Proleague, a format where if you play in one game, you have to play the other game the next time you're up. That, honestly, I think from the perspective of an SC1 pro-gamer, it will be extremely hard. When I first started SC2, I sometimes played a few games of SC1. But really, the interface, hotkeys, etc. are so different. So my skill level really fell a lot in SC1. But the current SC1 players will have to practice for both games, so it will be really hard, so I'm disappointed about that. I think it was too much of a selfish, top-down decision without thinking about the players, so I think it's a bad idea."
Exactly what I think, so sad. :<
Mvp is a good boy, I hope he will win this Championship.
On May 11 2012 18:55 ooozer wrote: Squirtle gets too little acknowledgment for what he accomplished so far. The most impressive run 2012 and yet, everybody is talking about how incredibly good MVP is, who constantly 1/2 bases in the last two rounds (just look at the MC comments: everytime he does an all in, it's because he can't play macro games. everytime a terran does that, he obviously read his opponents..). I really wish squirtle to win, so everybody realises who good he actually is
Ah it's the same thing MC/MVP, smell the weakness and go for it, though I can't help feeling that 4 medivac drop shouldn't have worked... and I still hate seeing a 1/1/1 all-in work (that's even when its me doing them). I'm backing squirtle too, he's got more style (and startale fighting!), but he's going to have to be sharp vs MVP's bottled game sense. Mostly I hope the final brings better games.
On May 11 2012 13:26 jarf1337 wrote: I don't like the suggestion that Squirtle is on the way to the best run in GSL history. Nestea already won a GSL going completely undefeated. How can something be better than undefeated?
Squirtle beat previous MLG champion Leenock 2-0 and previous GSL champion MMA 2-1 in group stages, both arguably in the top 5 for their respective races. Then he goes 3-0 against Taeja, the king of Korean Weekly, and 3-0 against HerO, who needs no intro. Again, both extremely good champion material. Then he's going to face Mvp in the finals, a player whose achievements don't need mentioning.
Nestea, on the other hand, got a default win against Rain, and a win against July 1-0. Mind you, group stage games were best of 1 back then. He moves on to beat Ensnare 2-0, Coca 3-0, and HongUn 3-0. I don't remember the last tournament Ensnare got good results, in fact he performed the worst out of all Koreans in the recent NASL. Same goes with HongUn - other than being known to make Carriers and beating former Protoss champion MC convincingly I don't recall him actually winning any tournaments. He beats Losira 4-0 in the finals. So that's three Zergs (and we all know Nestea's Korea ZvZ record), and one relatively unsuccessful Terran and Protoss.
The difference, when you look at the details, are enormous.
Squirtle also improved his GSL PvP record to 13 – 1, suggesting that he is the only one who actually understands the match-up, while the rest of us claiming that luck plays a significant role could stand to play a few thousand more games.
On May 11 2012 13:26 jarf1337 wrote: I don't like the suggestion that Squirtle is on the way to the best run in GSL history. Nestea already won a GSL going completely undefeated. How can something be better than undefeated?
Squirtle beat previous MLG champion Leenock 2-0 and previous GSL champion MMA 2-1 in group stages, both arguably in the top 5 for their respective races. Then he goes 3-0 against Taeja, the king of Korean Weekly, and 3-0 against HerO, who needs no intro. Again, both extremely good champion material. Then he's going to face Mvp in the finals, a player whose achievements don't need mentioning.
Nestea, on the other hand, got a default win against Rain, and a win against July 1-0. Mind you, group stage games were best of 1 back then. He moves on to beat Ensnare 2-0, Coca 3-0, and HongUn 3-0. I don't remember the last tournament Ensnare got good results, in fact he performed the worst out of all Koreans in the recent NASL. Same goes with HongUn - other than being known to make Carriers and beating former Protoss champion MC convincingly I don't recall him actually winning any tournaments. He beats Losira 4-0 in the finals. So that's three Zergs (and we all know Nestea's Korea ZvZ record), and one relatively unsuccessful Terran and Protoss.
The difference, when you look at the details, are enormous.
Yeah this exactly. Squirtle had some ridiculously hard opponents as opposed to Nestea's run.
I'm was not a fan of squirtle because of so much over-hyping and lack of GSL presence. But I really like him now that he lives up to his hype. I'll be rooting for closest 4-3 high-intensity finals rather than rooting for one of the two to win. Either of them winning says a lot about the player and will be breaking some sort of GSL record.
Damn it MVP!!! I keep saying you aren't that good, but you keep coming back. Stop that it's getting annoying. I still think Squirtle's gonna royal road it.
On May 11 2012 20:50 CoR wrote: STOP talking players into namechanges to some rnd names like "turtle king" ... i hope its a joke he has such a cool nickname ,...
I want both of them to win T_T. MVP is always a joy and has brought so much to SC2's name, but Squirtle interview and the possibility of being our first Royal Roader, it is tough, but Squirtle fighting I guess..
I'm pretty sure the reason why Mvp (1) played a macro game on Game 3 and (2) said that he was confident in playing a macro game is that he would seem more unpredictable in the Finals. Although Squirtle will without a doubt change his play to try and play less greedy, what happens when Mvp appears to be playing a macro game. Is he actually playing one and you can be greedy? Or is he just going to cheese you? If he didn't do those 2 things as said before, Squirtle would be 100% certain that he would just be doing some kind of all-in build, and would be Keen to the King's game.
Mvp is truly the king of mind-games. If he won't beat Squirtle with better play, he'll beat him with better mindgames. After all, this is Squirtle's first finals. It's his first time in GSL Code S. This is Mvp's fifth time in the finals.
It is pretty silly that everyone was saying basically, "yeah MVP sucks now, he's not got a shot"...lol the guy is a nerd baller extradordinare! I kind of fed into the same thinking too, but after watching the intelligence and preparedness of his builds I am stand woefully corrected.
As for Squirtle changing his name....ever since pokemon I thought "squirtle" sounded like something you did after a rough night of too many tacos...
i still haven't gotten over the fact that MVP was wearing a Jordans brand wrist wrap. it was so fitting and prophetic. i agree with the guys saying MVP to become first bonjwa of SC2. It was funny in the pre-show, Mr. Chae was saying last year MVP was beating all the Terrans to claim the throne, this year he's beating all the protoss to save the Terrans. truly, MVP does give me hope as a terran player in a time where TvP is regarded as hard
"This is a rare occurrence, but you actually had the support of the fans this time around, from people who wanted you to stop a PvP final. How do you feel about being in that situation?"
I really wonder how they came up with that one, since I don't agree with it at all. I would think that most people probably wanted Parting to advance here.
On May 11 2012 12:39 wasabay wrote: I didn't think Mvp went for any cheese at all for all 4 games
I agree that he didn't use cheese builds, but games 1 and 2 were certainly very risky, if not all-ins - pulling scvs and 1/1/1
In terms of who to root for, they both have compelling stories, but I think I'm more excited for Squirtle...I still remember the first time I played Pokemon Red, I picked squirtle, fun times...
Oh I see, 1/1/1 isn't cheese anymore, that makes total sense, just like 4gate right? And at least 4gate actually got nerfed.
I find it hard to believe people can still really root for MVP, like the guy hasn't had enough luck in this game.
On May 11 2012 12:39 wasabay wrote: I didn't think Mvp went for any cheese at all for all 4 games
He didn't.
Game 2? 1/1/1 all in? The other games weren't cheese but how is 1/1/1'ing without an expansion not cheese?
Because its not an abuse of game mechanics, you're not proxying buildings, its just an aggressive 1 base allin timing push.
Yes, abusing terrans completely broken tech tree is totally not abusing game mechanics right? That's just reserved for things like warpgate or making a lot of roaches.
By your definition the only cheese terran can do is proxy rax.
I was kinda rooting for PartinG to advance. With MVP's injury, his sets have gotten pretty predictable due to all the SCV timing attacks. Yet...they keep working against his opponents.
I'm not surprised that Squirtle's playing in the finals, he was one of the players I thought would beforehand. I didn't think Mvp would last this long, though, having to face PartinG on the way. But he's pulled through and this will make for a interesting finals.
NesTea went on a 20-0 win streak in GSL, Squirtle's win streak is 14 at the moment, so the best he can achieve in this GSL is going 18-1; still not the best by any means.
On May 11 2012 12:39 wasabay wrote: I didn't think Mvp went for any cheese at all for all 4 games
I agree that he didn't use cheese builds, but games 1 and 2 were certainly very risky, if not all-ins - pulling scvs and 1/1/1
In terms of who to root for, they both have compelling stories, but I think I'm more excited for Squirtle...I still remember the first time I played Pokemon Red, I picked squirtle, fun times...
Oh I see, 1/1/1 isn't cheese anymore, that makes total sense, just like 4gate right? And at least 4gate actually got nerfed.
I find it hard to believe people can still really root for MVP, like the guy hasn't had enough luck in this game.
Actually 1/1/1 has been weaken by the Immortal patch way back ago. So is is also weakend pretty bad that almost all toss now knows how to counter it
On May 11 2012 12:39 wasabay wrote: I didn't think Mvp went for any cheese at all for all 4 games
I agree that he didn't use cheese builds, but games 1 and 2 were certainly very risky, if not all-ins - pulling scvs and 1/1/1
In terms of who to root for, they both have compelling stories, but I think I'm more excited for Squirtle...I still remember the first time I played Pokemon Red, I picked squirtle, fun times...
Oh I see, 1/1/1 isn't cheese anymore, that makes total sense, just like 4gate right? And at least 4gate actually got nerfed.
I find it hard to believe people can still really root for MVP, like the guy hasn't had enough luck in this game.
Actually 1/1/1 has been weaken by the Immortal patch way back ago. So is is also weakend pretty bad that almost all toss now knows how to counter it
If a toss can scout it early enough and be greedy enough for the push which time can vary from 8 to 11 minutes then yes, many toss can sort of counter it, if they can both get to the tanks, keep their observers alive and kill the banshee while constantly warping in then tosses can often hold it.
All these prequisites though it make it still incredibly hard and statistically unlikely to hold, unlike the 4 gate which has been effectively declawed due to it's very short timing window.
Not to mention that whether or not you believe it's strong is completely irrelevant to the subject if it is or isn't a cheese, I'm inclined to say that if you stay on one base for so long or pull the amount of scv's he does it's automatically a cheese.
It's funny because even though MVP could potentially win this season he doesn't really seem like a champion at all unlike the previous seasons when he won.
I mean you gotta do what you gotta do to win, but his run feels kind of cheap imo. You know how it feels, like when Rain reached the finals about a year ago only to get destroyed by MC because he got there by cheesing only and had no idea how to play a real TvP. Now MVP's cheeses are much more elaborate compared to Rain's of course, but they're cheeses nonetheless.
I'm even more of an MVP fan now, and he has become my all time favorite Terrran player. No matter the situation, in spite of his injury and even with his most recent performances, MVP still manages to find the strength to play to the best of his ability and win games even when some of us didn't even give him a second chance. Admirable, incredible.
You borrowed that from my reply yesterday in the LR thread, I'm glad you found it as inspirational as I found MVP's story to be both impressive and inspiring.
In my heart MVP is already a champion for this amazing run, which he achieved trough smart play and careful analysis, even with CTS gnawing at his wrists and young protosses hungry for his blood. I hope he can make the final push!
Oh I see, 1/1/1 isn't cheese anymore, that makes total sense, just like 4gate right? And at least 4gate actually got nerfed.
4gate is just an aggressive 1 base play... proxy gate/stargate or dt rush would be cheese 1/1/1 is technically just a one base opening, with the specific all-in usually being (but not always) the marine/tank/banshee. saying a 1/1/1 that goes into a one-base all in is cheese is like saying a 3gate/robo opening that went into an immortal bust all-in is also cheese (i don't know protoss well enough to know if that's the specific opening for immortal bust, but the analogy applies to any other opening that happens to go into a one-base all-in timing attack)
Yes, abusing terrans completely broken tech tree is totally not abusing game mechanics right?
lol?
in that specific game 2, PartinG scouted the marine/tank/banshee push when MVP moved out and he had all the elements to defend: gateway stuff, good number of immortals, even phoenixes! But Parting botched the defense (letting his immortals get picked off by marines) and there's nothing to blame other than Parting himself. During the broadcast, Artosis even outlined what parting needed to do in order to break the contain at the ramp. others have stated before in other matches that part of stopping such a timing push is to force the terran to seige prematurely so as to buy more warp-in time and better positioning. for someone with such a boasted high level of PvT, a marine/tank/banshee all-in defense should be standard fare.
here's a post from earlier in the thread that i think is very fitting for your argument:
On May 11 2012 12:39 wasabay wrote: I didn't think Mvp went for any cheese at all for all 4 games
He didn't.
Game 2? 1/1/1 all in? The other games weren't cheese but how is 1/1/1'ing without an expansion not cheese?
All-ins and cheese are two different things. 6 pool is cheese. Cannon rushing is cheese. 2rax with only 10 scvs is cheese. Having 70 supply worth of units with an attack beginning at the 10 minute mark is not cheese.
I'm not going to lie, I dont like very many protoss players in general but the few that I do like Squirtle is one of them. I also love MvP. MvP has shown sick ability even though hes having a rough year. It shows the type of character, willingness, and competitiveness of MvP. GL to them Both.
P.S.: Go MvP! 4-Time GSL Champ sounds really good. P.P.S: Squirtle make it go to the last match!
AAAHHHHH I dont know who to chose. The Terran inside of me wants MvP but apart of me also wants Squirtle
awww I got both wrong... I thought Squirtle might win, but MvP's victory was a shock. Congratulations to both, but I am rooting for Squirtle as Protoss needs a new President! (it's election time :-p)
Oh I see, 1/1/1 isn't cheese anymore, that makes total sense, just like 4gate right? And at least 4gate actually got nerfed.
4gate is just an aggressive 1 base play... proxy gate/stargate or dt rush would be cheese 1/1/1 is technically just a one base opening, with the specific all-in usually being (but not always) the marine/tank/banshee. saying a 1/1/1 that goes into a one-base all in is cheese is like saying a 3gate/robo opening that went into an immortal bust all-in is also cheese (i don't know protoss well enough to know if that's the specific opening for immortal bust, but the analogy applies to any other opening that happens to go into a one-base all-in timing attack)
Yes, abusing terrans completely broken tech tree is totally not abusing game mechanics right?
lol?
in that specific game 2, PartinG scouted the marine/tank/banshee push when MVP moved out and he had all the elements to defend: gateway stuff, good number of immortals, even phoenixes! But Parting botched the defense (letting his immortals get picked off by marines) and there's nothing to blame other than Parting himself. During the broadcast, Artosis even outlined what parting needed to do in order to break the contain at the ramp. others have stated before in other matches that part of stopping such a timing push is to force the terran to seige prematurely so as to buy more warp-in time and better positioning. for someone with such a boasted high level of PvT, a marine/tank/banshee all-in defense should be standard fare.
here's a post from earlier in the thread that i think is very fitting for your argument:
On May 11 2012 12:39 wasabay wrote: I didn't think Mvp went for any cheese at all for all 4 games
He didn't.
Game 2? 1/1/1 all in? The other games weren't cheese but how is 1/1/1'ing without an expansion not cheese?
All-ins and cheese are two different things. 6 pool is cheese. Cannon rushing is cheese. 2rax with only 10 scvs is cheese. Having 70 supply worth of units with an attack beginning at the 10 minute mark is not cheese.
No that's just your definition of cheese, most people (including casters) called 4 gate a cheese when it was actually still being used, even though that build was easier to expand from (earliest moment to expand is just after the push hits, which is a lot faster), not to mention that a toss usually won't pull a significant amount of probes for it, and never the amounts MVP chooses to go with.
A cheese is just another term for an all-in, or rather people like day9 who, for very understandable reasons, want to seem as impartial as possible, use it as a less charged word for cheese, not all all-ins have to be cheesy, but cheeses are always all-in.
well with squirtle and mvp in his current condition, it will most likely be a quick finals, as in games are short and full of early aggression. But they will be far away from scv marine rush finals still xD
I'm a little disappointed that MVP is relying so much on early all-ins, but with his current wrist condition I can hardly hold it against him. Both are worthy champions and I can't wait.
On May 12 2012 00:04 Demorase wrote: It's funny because even though MVP could potentially win this season he doesn't really seem like a champion at all unlike the previous seasons when he won.
I mean you gotta do what you gotta do to win, but his run feels kind of cheap imo. You know how it feels, like when Rain reached the finals about a year ago only to get destroyed by MC because he got there by cheesing only and had no idea how to play a real TvP. Now MVP's cheeses are much more elaborate compared to Rain's of course, but they're cheeses nonetheless.
Argg, I think it would be pretty epic if Squirtle wins...and honestly, he seems unstoppable at the moment! Then again, you can never really count MVP out of anything! Should be a fantastic series to watch, can't wait one bit!!!
On May 12 2012 00:04 Demorase wrote: It's funny because even though MVP could potentially win this season he doesn't really seem like a champion at all unlike the previous seasons when he won.
I mean you gotta do what you gotta do to win, but his run feels kind of cheap imo. You know how it feels, like when Rain reached the finals about a year ago only to get destroyed by MC because he got there by cheesing only and had no idea how to play a real TvP. Now MVP's cheeses are much more elaborate compared to Rain's of course, but they're cheeses nonetheless.
Blame the match-up, not the player trying to win.
It's kind of blatant why he's the only Terran still standing, and although that reason is also the reason behind him being raged at by a lot of people saying "cheeser" and such, he doesn't care, and he shouldn't.
Winners do what it takes to win, this season has been very Protoss dominated, and if he manages to win it while gimped it says everything about how strong as a player he is.
I hope Squirtle can take down MvP. I think he deserves it especially after TaeJa and HerO were hyped to win by tastosis during the casts...Regardless of the manner in which Squirtle won; he won, in decisive, sweeping fashion.
I'm an MvP fan and I hope Squirtle wins.
Squirtle had such an impressive run @ IPL 4; again sweeping almost every opponent upto the Finals where he took the first bo5...
On May 11 2012 12:39 wasabay wrote: I didn't think Mvp went for any cheese at all for all 4 games
He didn't.
Game 2? 1/1/1 all in? The other games weren't cheese but how is 1/1/1'ing without an expansion not cheese?
Because its not an abuse of game mechanics, you're not proxying buildings, its just an aggressive 1 base allin timing push.
Yes, abusing terrans completely broken tech tree is totally not abusing game mechanics right? That's just reserved for things like warpgate or making a lot of roaches.
By your definition the only cheese terran can do is proxy rax.
No, it actually isn't. Terran's tech tree is not broken. Nor is warpgate or making a lot of roaches.
And yes, there aren't that many cheeses in this game. Terran can proxy rax, zerg doesn't even have cheese except arguably 6 pool, and toss can cannon rush/2 gate proxy. You act like your points are self-evident but they're not. Why so aggressive?
On May 12 2012 00:04 Demorase wrote: It's funny because even though MVP could potentially win this season he doesn't really seem like a champion at all unlike the previous seasons when he won.
I mean you gotta do what you gotta do to win, but his run feels kind of cheap imo. You know how it feels, like when Rain reached the finals about a year ago only to get destroyed by MC because he got there by cheesing only and had no idea how to play a real TvP. Now MVP's cheeses are much more elaborate compared to Rain's of course, but they're cheeses nonetheless.
1. The man has serious wrist issues. 2. lategame tvp is disgusting atm.
I laugh that he made it, shows how good he REALLY is. Hes at his all time worst and gets Finals in Code-S. How do you all doubt that he is the best player in the game. Clearly obvious if you take the time to think about it.
On May 12 2012 05:13 Sc2ttyl wrote: I laugh that he made it, shows how good he REALLY is. Hes at his all time worst and gets Finals in Code-S. How do you all doubt that he is the best player in the game. Clearly obvious if you take the time to think about it.
Indeed, imagine if his wrists suddenly got better, his performance in August/January/WC was incredible to watch.
I don't know if anyone was watching the game he lost, but it sure as hell wasn't because "templars" were out... He lost because 50% of his army ran left the other 50% ran right then protoss ran in at the exact moment that happened and killed each half systematically before they could regroup... 200/200 protoss army vs 2 seperated half maxed terran armies...
I hate all of these low league players who come in and say "well he lost because templars, imba" "no late games" bunch of bullshit... It was MVP who lost that game, not templars and imbalance winning because of the time of that game.
So MVP won the series with skill and well played build, lost one game BECAUSE OF HIS FAULT not templar tech.
its funny to read what ppl in this forum consider as "cheese" so mvp vs parting game 1, he played a completely standard build and as he saw that his opponent played very greedy and had no units he just pulled everything he had and finished him off. And ppl here call it cheese^^
If you play too greedy and tell it your oppononent by showing you have just the half of an army, its 100% your own fault and it has nothin to do with cheesy play.
Cannon rush, 6 pool, dt rush, in base rax/gateways... those are cheeses, because they are mostly based on luck and how fast your opponent reacts. 1 Rax FE into mmm is definately NO cheese^^
I'm rooting for Squirtle. Clearly he has risen to the occaision (and hasn't got cocky like PArting did vs. MVP). It's time for the toss to prosper! (I am Terran btw.) Look forward to the finals :D
MVP the first legit best player in the game ? I hope so...c'mon MVP I know its gonna cost another virgin sacrifice to Lee Young Ho but it doesn't matter win the finals.
On May 12 2012 00:04 Demorase wrote: It's funny because even though MVP could potentially win this season he doesn't really seem like a champion at all unlike the previous seasons when he won.
I mean you gotta do what you gotta do to win, but his run feels kind of cheap imo. You know how it feels, like when Rain reached the finals about a year ago only to get destroyed by MC because he got there by cheesing only and had no idea how to play a real TvP. Now MVP's cheeses are much more elaborate compared to Rain's of course, but they're cheeses nonetheless.
1. The man has serious wrist issues. 2. lategame tvp is disgusting atm.
1. Yeah I know, I hope he gets better, point still stands though
2. MarineKing is able to win straight up TvP without relying on gimmicks nearly as much as MVP, why can't MVP?
And about cheese, technically what he did were more of "timing attacks" which is just an elaborate term for "big cheese" basically you know
Personally I like timing attacks a lot it's entertaining to watch, but you can't deny that when players rely purely on it to win games it's not a very good sign. MVP hasn't won a single long tvp match in the entire season yet.
On May 12 2012 00:04 Demorase wrote: It's funny because even though MVP could potentially win this season he doesn't really seem like a champion at all unlike the previous seasons when he won.
I mean you gotta do what you gotta do to win, but his run feels kind of cheap imo. You know how it feels, like when Rain reached the finals about a year ago only to get destroyed by MC because he got there by cheesing only and had no idea how to play a real TvP. Now MVP's cheeses are much more elaborate compared to Rain's of course, but they're cheeses nonetheless.
1. The man has serious wrist issues. 2. lategame tvp is disgusting atm.
1. Yeah I know, I hope he gets better, point still stands though
2. MarineKing is able to win straight up TvP without relying on gimmicks nearly as much as MVP, why can't MVP?
And about cheese, technically what he did were more of "timing attacks" which is just an elaborate term for "big cheese" basically you know
Because Mvp's wrists are exploding and in order to play late-game TvP and even survive the deathball you need unbelievable unit control, something that Mvp lacks currently.
I don't mind him all-ining for his 4th championship, because he's playing extremely smartly and preparing early-game timings for his TvP games. Something that Marineking probably should have done to beat PartinG in the Ro8.
On May 12 2012 00:04 Demorase wrote: It's funny because even though MVP could potentially win this season he doesn't really seem like a champion at all unlike the previous seasons when he won.
I mean you gotta do what you gotta do to win, but his run feels kind of cheap imo. You know how it feels, like when Rain reached the finals about a year ago only to get destroyed by MC because he got there by cheesing only and had no idea how to play a real TvP. Now MVP's cheeses are much more elaborate compared to Rain's of course, but they're cheeses nonetheless.
1. The man has serious wrist issues. 2. lategame tvp is disgusting atm.
1. Yeah I know, I hope he gets better, point still stands though
2. MarineKing is able to win straight up TvP without relying on gimmicks nearly as much as MVP, why can't MVP?
And about cheese, technically what he did were more of "timing attacks" which is just an elaborate term for "big cheese" basically you know
Because Mvp's wrists are exploding and in order to play late-game TvP and even survive the deathball you need unbelievable unit control, something that Mvp lacks currently.
I don't mind him all-ining for his 4th championship, because he's playing extremely smartly and preparing early-game timings for his TvP games. Something that Marineking probably should have done to beat PartinG in the Ro8.
Yeah that's true, would be nice if he can win a longer tvp during the finals though, just to prove he can do it. I like to think champions should be more of the complete package than just one-trick poneys
On May 12 2012 00:04 Demorase wrote: It's funny because even though MVP could potentially win this season he doesn't really seem like a champion at all unlike the previous seasons when he won.
I mean you gotta do what you gotta do to win, but his run feels kind of cheap imo. You know how it feels, like when Rain reached the finals about a year ago only to get destroyed by MC because he got there by cheesing only and had no idea how to play a real TvP. Now MVP's cheeses are much more elaborate compared to Rain's of course, but they're cheeses nonetheless.
1. The man has serious wrist issues. 2. lategame tvp is disgusting atm.
1. Yeah I know, I hope he gets better, point still stands though
2. MarineKing is able to win straight up TvP without relying on gimmicks nearly as much as MVP, why can't MVP?
And about cheese, technically what he did were more of "timing attacks" which is just an elaborate term for "big cheese" basically you know
Because Mvp's wrists are exploding and in order to play late-game TvP and even survive the deathball you need unbelievable unit control, something that Mvp lacks currently.
I don't mind him all-ining for his 4th championship, because he's playing extremely smartly and preparing early-game timings for his TvP games. Something that Marineking probably should have done to beat PartinG in the Ro8.
Yeah that's true, would be nice if he can win a longer tvp during the finals though, just to prove he can do it. I like to think champions should be more of the complete package than just one-trick poneys
True, but I'm pretty sure Mvp doesn't need to prove he can play macro games, since in 2011 he only played macro games, he rarely ever did all-in or cheesy builds, (one of the reasons he lost to MMA was that he was predictably trying to enter the macro late-game.
If anything I think he's impressing me more by completely reversing his playstyle to counter the greedy Protoss players at the moment.
Squirtle fighting! Rooting hard for the Protoss brethren! Plus, I want to taste the Terran tears of QQ after Squirtle crushes this legendary Terran player
Its funny how fast people start writing off a player if they do not win anything recently even though they were and probably are still a top player like mvp. I mean hes the most accomplished player in starcraft 2 still it was not just by luck. That being said we know TvP is in protoss favor late game after all the P buffs like upgrades being cheaper mvp knows its stacked against him balance wise late game.
On May 12 2012 00:04 Demorase wrote: It's funny because even though MVP could potentially win this season he doesn't really seem like a champion at all unlike the previous seasons when he won.
I mean you gotta do what you gotta do to win, but his run feels kind of cheap imo. You know how it feels, like when Rain reached the finals about a year ago only to get destroyed by MC because he got there by cheesing only and had no idea how to play a real TvP. Now MVP's cheeses are much more elaborate compared to Rain's of course, but they're cheeses nonetheless.
1. The man has serious wrist issues. 2. lategame tvp is disgusting atm.
1. Yeah I know, I hope he gets better, point still stands though
2. MarineKing is able to win straight up TvP without relying on gimmicks nearly as much as MVP, why can't MVP?
And about cheese, technically what he did were more of "timing attacks" which is just an elaborate term for "big cheese" basically you know
Because Mvp's wrists are exploding and in order to play late-game TvP and even survive the deathball you need unbelievable unit control, something that Mvp lacks currently.
I don't mind him all-ining for his 4th championship, because he's playing extremely smartly and preparing early-game timings for his TvP games. Something that Marineking probably should have done to beat PartinG in the Ro8.
Yeah that's true, would be nice if he can win a longer tvp during the finals though, just to prove he can do it. I like to think champions should be more of the complete package than just one-trick poneys
Did you just imply that a guy with 3 gsls going into his 4th final is a one trick pony? You must be trolling.
Cheese or not, I don't care - I still remember when Boxer 3x consecutively bunker rushed yellOw! The excitement was phenomenal!
Im not bothered whether its a long game or a short game - I assume both players are currently the best in the world, and it should be a spectacle nonetheless.
Long drawn out macros are fun, but not always better than short, exciting games (Recent april 8th BW finals with Bisu vs Flash - 7th game was an EPIC game)
On May 12 2012 00:04 Demorase wrote: It's funny because even though MVP could potentially win this season he doesn't really seem like a champion at all unlike the previous seasons when he won.
I mean you gotta do what you gotta do to win, but his run feels kind of cheap imo. You know how it feels, like when Rain reached the finals about a year ago only to get destroyed by MC because he got there by cheesing only and had no idea how to play a real TvP. Now MVP's cheeses are much more elaborate compared to Rain's of course, but they're cheeses nonetheless.
1. The man has serious wrist issues. 2. lategame tvp is disgusting atm.
1. Yeah I know, I hope he gets better, point still stands though
2. MarineKing is able to win straight up TvP without relying on gimmicks nearly as much as MVP, why can't MVP?
And about cheese, technically what he did were more of "timing attacks" which is just an elaborate term for "big cheese" basically you know
Because Mvp's wrists are exploding and in order to play late-game TvP and even survive the deathball you need unbelievable unit control, something that Mvp lacks currently.
I don't mind him all-ining for his 4th championship, because he's playing extremely smartly and preparing early-game timings for his TvP games. Something that Marineking probably should have done to beat PartinG in the Ro8.
Yeah that's true, would be nice if he can win a longer tvp during the finals though, just to prove he can do it. I like to think champions should be more of the complete package than just one-trick poneys
Did you just imply that a guy with 3 gsls going into his 4th final is a one trick pony? You must be trolling.
In TvP yeah, 100% of his wins against P so far have been 1 or 2 base all-ins that ended the game at around the 10 min mark.
Like I said, personally I don't mind timing attacks, but when it's only thing the player can do then it shows he's limited in this match-up.
On May 12 2012 00:04 Demorase wrote: It's funny because even though MVP could potentially win this season he doesn't really seem like a champion at all unlike the previous seasons when he won.
I mean you gotta do what you gotta do to win, but his run feels kind of cheap imo. You know how it feels, like when Rain reached the finals about a year ago only to get destroyed by MC because he got there by cheesing only and had no idea how to play a real TvP. Now MVP's cheeses are much more elaborate compared to Rain's of course, but they're cheeses nonetheless.
1. The man has serious wrist issues. 2. lategame tvp is disgusting atm.
1. Yeah I know, I hope he gets better, point still stands though
2. MarineKing is able to win straight up TvP without relying on gimmicks nearly as much as MVP, why can't MVP?
And about cheese, technically what he did were more of "timing attacks" which is just an elaborate term for "big cheese" basically you know
Because Mvp's wrists are exploding and in order to play late-game TvP and even survive the deathball you need unbelievable unit control, something that Mvp lacks currently.
I don't mind him all-ining for his 4th championship, because he's playing extremely smartly and preparing early-game timings for his TvP games. Something that Marineking probably should have done to beat PartinG in the Ro8.
Yeah that's true, would be nice if he can win a longer tvp during the finals though, just to prove he can do it. I like to think champions should be more of the complete package than just one-trick poneys
Did you just imply that a guy with 3 gsls going into his 4th final is a one trick pony? You must be trolling.
In TvP yeah, 100% of his wins against P so far have been 1 or 2 base all-ins that ended the game at around the 10 min mark.
Like I said, personally I don't mind timing attacks, but when it's only thing the player can do then it shows he's limited in this match-up.
Reasoning with you is like trying to talk to a wall.
On May 11 2012 13:26 jarf1337 wrote: I don't like the suggestion that Squirtle is on the way to the best run in GSL history. Nestea already won a GSL going completely undefeated. How can something be better than undefeated?
Squirtle beat previous MLG champion Leenock 2-0 and previous GSL champion MMA 2-1 in group stages, both arguably in the top 5 for their respective races. Then he goes 3-0 against Taeja, the king of Korean Weekly, and 3-0 against HerO, who needs no intro. Again, both extremely good champion material. Then he's going to face Mvp in the finals, a player whose achievements don't need mentioning.
Nestea, on the other hand, got a default win against Rain, and a win against July 1-0. Mind you, group stage games were best of 1 back then. He moves on to beat Ensnare 2-0, Coca 3-0, and HongUn 3-0. I don't remember the last tournament Ensnare got good results, in fact he performed the worst out of all Koreans in the recent NASL. Same goes with HongUn - other than being known to make Carriers and beating former Protoss champion MC convincingly I don't recall him actually winning any tournaments. He beats Losira 4-0 in the finals. So that's three Zergs (and we all know Nestea's Korea ZvZ record), and one relatively unsuccessful Terran and Protoss.
The difference, when you look at the details, are enormous.
Yeah this exactly. Squirtle had some ridiculously hard opponents as opposed to Nestea's run.
I'm was not a fan of squirtle because of so much over-hyping and lack of GSL presence. But I really like him now that he lives up to his hype. I'll be rooting for closest 4-3 high-intensity finals rather than rooting for one of the two to win. Either of them winning says a lot about the player and will be breaking some sort of GSL record.
Winning two consecutive finals with a 4-0 score and not dropping a single map between the two is so incredibly awesome that I doubt anything will ever come close to it.
Claiming that a guy going 14-1 in a single GSL can potentially rival that is down right insulting imo.
On May 12 2012 00:04 Demorase wrote: It's funny because even though MVP could potentially win this season he doesn't really seem like a champion at all unlike the previous seasons when he won.
I mean you gotta do what you gotta do to win, but his run feels kind of cheap imo. You know how it feels, like when Rain reached the finals about a year ago only to get destroyed by MC because he got there by cheesing only and had no idea how to play a real TvP. Now MVP's cheeses are much more elaborate compared to Rain's of course, but they're cheeses nonetheless.
1. The man has serious wrist issues. 2. lategame tvp is disgusting atm.
1. Yeah I know, I hope he gets better, point still stands though
2. MarineKing is able to win straight up TvP without relying on gimmicks nearly as much as MVP, why can't MVP?
And about cheese, technically what he did were more of "timing attacks" which is just an elaborate term for "big cheese" basically you know
Because Mvp's wrists are exploding and in order to play late-game TvP and even survive the deathball you need unbelievable unit control, something that Mvp lacks currently.
I don't mind him all-ining for his 4th championship, because he's playing extremely smartly and preparing early-game timings for his TvP games. Something that Marineking probably should have done to beat PartinG in the Ro8.
Yeah that's true, would be nice if he can win a longer tvp during the finals though, just to prove he can do it. I like to think champions should be more of the complete package than just one-trick poneys
Did you just imply that a guy with 3 gsls going into his 4th final is a one trick pony? You must be trolling.
In TvP yeah, 100% of his wins against P so far have been 1 or 2 base all-ins that ended the game at around the 10 min mark.
Like I said, personally I don't mind timing attacks, but when it's only thing the player can do then it shows he's limited in this match-up.
You must be new to the sc2 scene and haven't been watching his games since he started playing. That or you have downs syndrome. I'll let you figure out which one.
On May 12 2012 00:04 Demorase wrote: It's funny because even though MVP could potentially win this season he doesn't really seem like a champion at all unlike the previous seasons when he won.
I mean you gotta do what you gotta do to win, but his run feels kind of cheap imo. You know how it feels, like when Rain reached the finals about a year ago only to get destroyed by MC because he got there by cheesing only and had no idea how to play a real TvP. Now MVP's cheeses are much more elaborate compared to Rain's of course, but they're cheeses nonetheless.
1. The man has serious wrist issues. 2. lategame tvp is disgusting atm.
1. Yeah I know, I hope he gets better, point still stands though
2. MarineKing is able to win straight up TvP without relying on gimmicks nearly as much as MVP, why can't MVP?
And about cheese, technically what he did were more of "timing attacks" which is just an elaborate term for "big cheese" basically you know
Personally I like timing attacks a lot it's entertaining to watch, but you can't deny that when players rely purely on it to win games it's not a very good sign. MVP hasn't won a single long tvp match in the entire season yet.
Bro, you wouldn't understand the kind of physical pain he is experiencing while he is playing. I personally suffer from CTS at a minor extent which prevents me from playing over 1-2 hours of time but hell, when I feel even a little bit of pain, I rest for the entire day. MVP is suffering from a much more serious degree of it and is still attempting to win the finals. But I don't blame the general mob mentality of no being understanding of a human being because until they experience the same pain or knows someone close that also has it, they most likely won't change their mind. It's like trying to sympathize with a terminal cancer patient when you have never fought cancer yourself or know anyone else who has by saying "it's okay, you're going to be fine" It's like a slap in the face.
On May 13 2012 02:04 snakeeyez wrote: Its funny how fast people start writing off a player if they do not win anything recently even though they were and probably are still a top player like mvp. I mean hes the most accomplished player in starcraft 2 still it was not just by luck. That being said we know TvP is in protoss favor late game after all the P buffs like upgrades being cheaper mvp knows its stacked against him balance wise late game.
I love the ridiculous spin placed upon these finals. If MVP loses, it's not because squirtle is a very good protoss, or because MVP historically had a weaker TvP winning most of his championships on the back of his god-tier TvT/TvZ. It's none of that. It's because TvP is imbalanced. And of course, if MVP wins, well then he's just a god and theres simply no disputing it.
Interesting how every terran i read about "has a weaker TvP". And looking at the ammount of lesser protosses in Ro8 yes, I would say Squirtle won becouse TvP is imbalanced.
On May 13 2012 21:34 Thruth wrote: Interesting how every terran i read about "has a weaker TvP". And looking at the ammount of lesser protosses in Ro8 yes, I would say Squirtle won becouse TvP is imbalanced.
Except Mvp's weakest matchup has always been TvP, recent meta has nothing to do with it
On May 13 2012 21:34 Thruth wrote: Interesting how every terran i read about "has a weaker TvP". And looking at the ammount of lesser protosses in Ro8 yes, I would say Squirtle won becouse TvP is imbalanced.
Which "every" Terran are you reading about that has a "weaker TvP" that is also in the finals and is the most discussed about Terran next to MMA and MKP?
I guess all of the other dozen or so Terrans that were in the ro8 the other half'a dozen GSL seasons won because TvP as Terran was imbalanced too, right? Have you ever heard of a meta game? You know, where strategies change and one race wins a little more than the other as a result for several months?
On May 12 2012 00:04 Demorase wrote: It's funny because even though MVP could potentially win this season he doesn't really seem like a champion at all unlike the previous seasons when he won.
I mean you gotta do what you gotta do to win, but his run feels kind of cheap imo. You know how it feels, like when Rain reached the finals about a year ago only to get destroyed by MC because he got there by cheesing only and had no idea how to play a real TvP. Now MVP's cheeses are much more elaborate compared to Rain's of course, but they're cheeses nonetheless.
1. The man has serious wrist issues. 2. lategame tvp is disgusting atm.
1. Yeah I know, I hope he gets better, point still stands though
2. MarineKing is able to win straight up TvP without relying on gimmicks nearly as much as MVP, why can't MVP?
And about cheese, technically what he did were more of "timing attacks" which is just an elaborate term for "big cheese" basically you know
Personally I like timing attacks a lot it's entertaining to watch, but you can't deny that when players rely purely on it to win games it's not a very good sign. MVP hasn't won a single long tvp match in the entire season yet.
Bro, you wouldn't understand the kind of physical pain he is experiencing while he is playing. I personally suffer from CTS at a minor extent which prevents me from playing over 1-2 hours of time but hell, when I feel even a little bit of pain, I rest for the entire day. MVP is suffering from a much more serious degree of it and is still attempting to win the finals. But I don't blame the general mob mentality of no being understanding of a human being because until they experience the same pain or knows someone close that also has it, they most likely won't change their mind. It's like trying to sympathize with a terminal cancer patient when you have never fought cancer yourself or know anyone else who has by saying "it's okay, you're going to be fine" It's like a slap in the face.
If you have CTS, surgery should be done quick. I don't know why you torture yourself so much. Furthermore: If you have your nerve irritated for to long, lasting damage might be afflicted. MVP should have gotten his OP quicker.
On May 13 2012 02:04 snakeeyez wrote: Its funny how fast people start writing off a player if they do not win anything recently even though they were and probably are still a top player like mvp. I mean hes the most accomplished player in starcraft 2 still it was not just by luck. That being said we know TvP is in protoss favor late game after all the P buffs like upgrades being cheaper mvp knows its stacked against him balance wise late game.
I love the ridiculous spin placed upon these finals. If MVP loses, it's not because squirtle is a very good protoss, or because MVP historically had a weaker TvP winning most of his championships on the back of his god-tier TvT/TvZ. It's none of that. It's because TvP is imbalanced. And of course, if MVP wins, well then he's just a god and theres simply no disputing it.
Actually if he loses it's because he has CTS in both wrists.
But no, a lot of people will not say that TvP is imbalanced if Squirtle wins or if Mvp wins will they say it's balanced, TvP is imbalanced at the moment because of how the match up plays out. Terran is very strong early-game, and can win with all-ins, like the way Mvp has been winning against NaNiwa and PartinG. Protoss is incredibly OP after a certain time in-game if the Terran hasn't done enough economic damage, and can literally faceroll the Terran army.
Blizzard thinks those two cancel each other out, which really they do, but they don't make for interesting matches, they literally make the match up so that there is one big battle that one side wins or loses and then it's gg, which is awful balance.
On May 13 2012 02:04 snakeeyez wrote: Its funny how fast people start writing off a player if they do not win anything recently even though they were and probably are still a top player like mvp. I mean hes the most accomplished player in starcraft 2 still it was not just by luck. That being said we know TvP is in protoss favor late game after all the P buffs like upgrades being cheaper mvp knows its stacked against him balance wise late game.
I love the ridiculous spin placed upon these finals. If MVP loses, it's not because squirtle is a very good protoss, or because MVP historically had a weaker TvP winning most of his championships on the back of his god-tier TvT/TvZ. It's none of that. It's because TvP is imbalanced. And of course, if MVP wins, well then he's just a god and theres simply no disputing it.
Actually if he loses it's because he has CTS in both wrists.
But no, a lot of people will not say that TvP is imbalanced if Squirtle wins or if Mvp wins will they say it's balanced, TvP is imbalanced at the moment because of how the match up plays out. Terran is very strong early-game, and can win with all-ins, like the way Mvp has been winning against NaNiwa and PartinG. Protoss is incredibly OP after a certain time in-game if the Terran hasn't done enough economic damage, and can literally faceroll the Terran army.
Blizzard thinks those two cancel each other out, which really they do, but they don't make for interesting matches, they literally make the match up so that there is one big battle that one side wins or loses and then it's gg, which is awful balance.
Yeah, it's not imbalanced. TvP is much more dynamic than simply declaring that a protoss is unbeatable after a certain "in-game" time, with no variables. You can, however, much more safely and accurately acknowledge a meta game swing in favor of Protoss in PvT.
Did you actually think you're explaining to someone who doesn't know? Lol.
And yes, he does have CTS, but CTS won't be mentioned nearly as much as imbalance.
On May 13 2012 02:04 snakeeyez wrote: Its funny how fast people start writing off a player if they do not win anything recently even though they were and probably are still a top player like mvp. I mean hes the most accomplished player in starcraft 2 still it was not just by luck. That being said we know TvP is in protoss favor late game after all the P buffs like upgrades being cheaper mvp knows its stacked against him balance wise late game.
I love the ridiculous spin placed upon these finals. If MVP loses, it's not because squirtle is a very good protoss, or because MVP historically had a weaker TvP winning most of his championships on the back of his god-tier TvT/TvZ. It's none of that. It's because TvP is imbalanced. And of course, if MVP wins, well then he's just a god and theres simply no disputing it.
Actually if he loses it's because he has CTS in both wrists.
But no, a lot of people will not say that TvP is imbalanced if Squirtle wins or if Mvp wins will they say it's balanced, TvP is imbalanced at the moment because of how the match up plays out. Terran is very strong early-game, and can win with all-ins, like the way Mvp has been winning against NaNiwa and PartinG. Protoss is incredibly OP after a certain time in-game if the Terran hasn't done enough economic damage, and can literally faceroll the Terran army.
Blizzard thinks those two cancel each other out, which really they do, but they don't make for interesting matches, they literally make the match up so that there is one big battle that one side wins or loses and then it's gg, which is awful balance.
Yeah, it's not imbalanced. TvP is much more dynamic than simply declaring that a protoss is unbeatable after a certain "in-game" time, with no variables. You can, however, much more safely and accurately acknowledge a meta game swing in favor of Protoss in PvT.
Did you actually think you're explaining to someone who doesn't know? Lol.
And yes, he does have CTS, but CTS won't be mentioned nearly as much as imbalance.
Calling TvP a dynamic match up is a joke, it's probably the least dynamic match up in the game.
On May 13 2012 02:04 snakeeyez wrote: Its funny how fast people start writing off a player if they do not win anything recently even though they were and probably are still a top player like mvp. I mean hes the most accomplished player in starcraft 2 still it was not just by luck. That being said we know TvP is in protoss favor late game after all the P buffs like upgrades being cheaper mvp knows its stacked against him balance wise late game.
I love the ridiculous spin placed upon these finals. If MVP loses, it's not because squirtle is a very good protoss, or because MVP historically had a weaker TvP winning most of his championships on the back of his god-tier TvT/TvZ. It's none of that. It's because TvP is imbalanced. And of course, if MVP wins, well then he's just a god and theres simply no disputing it.
Actually if he loses it's because he has CTS in both wrists.
But no, a lot of people will not say that TvP is imbalanced if Squirtle wins or if Mvp wins will they say it's balanced, TvP is imbalanced at the moment because of how the match up plays out. Terran is very strong early-game, and can win with all-ins, like the way Mvp has been winning against NaNiwa and PartinG. Protoss is incredibly OP after a certain time in-game if the Terran hasn't done enough economic damage, and can literally faceroll the Terran army.
Blizzard thinks those two cancel each other out, which really they do, but they don't make for interesting matches, they literally make the match up so that there is one big battle that one side wins or loses and then it's gg, which is awful balance.
Yeah, it's not imbalanced. TvP is much more dynamic than simply declaring that a protoss is unbeatable after a certain "in-game" time, with no variables. You can, however, much more safely and accurately acknowledge a meta game swing in favor of Protoss in PvT.
Did you actually think you're explaining to someone who doesn't know? Lol.
And yes, he does have CTS, but CTS won't be mentioned nearly as much as imbalance.
Calling TvP a dynamic match up is a joke, it's probably the least dynamic match up in the game.
If you're going to be narrow minded and observe this specific metagame as the only end-all TvP metagame that has ever existed, then maybe, in this particular vacuum, it's not very dynamic. I guess SC2 came out a few months ago.
On May 13 2012 02:04 snakeeyez wrote: Its funny how fast people start writing off a player if they do not win anything recently even though they were and probably are still a top player like mvp. I mean hes the most accomplished player in starcraft 2 still it was not just by luck. That being said we know TvP is in protoss favor late game after all the P buffs like upgrades being cheaper mvp knows its stacked against him balance wise late game.
I love the ridiculous spin placed upon these finals. If MVP loses, it's not because squirtle is a very good protoss, or because MVP historically had a weaker TvP winning most of his championships on the back of his god-tier TvT/TvZ. It's none of that. It's because TvP is imbalanced. And of course, if MVP wins, well then he's just a god and theres simply no disputing it.
Actually if he loses it's because he has CTS in both wrists.
But no, a lot of people will not say that TvP is imbalanced if Squirtle wins or if Mvp wins will they say it's balanced, TvP is imbalanced at the moment because of how the match up plays out. Terran is very strong early-game, and can win with all-ins, like the way Mvp has been winning against NaNiwa and PartinG. Protoss is incredibly OP after a certain time in-game if the Terran hasn't done enough economic damage, and can literally faceroll the Terran army.
Blizzard thinks those two cancel each other out, which really they do, but they don't make for interesting matches, they literally make the match up so that there is one big battle that one side wins or loses and then it's gg, which is awful balance.
Yeah, it's not imbalanced. TvP is much more dynamic than simply declaring that a protoss is unbeatable after a certain "in-game" time, with no variables. You can, however, much more safely and accurately acknowledge a meta game swing in favor of Protoss in PvT.
Did you actually think you're explaining to someone who doesn't know? Lol.
And yes, he does have CTS, but CTS won't be mentioned nearly as much as imbalance.
Calling TvP a dynamic match up is a joke, it's probably the least dynamic match up in the game.
If you're going to be narrow minded and observe this specific metagame as the only end-all TvP metagame that has ever existed, then maybe, in this particular vacuum, it's not very dynamic. I guess SC2 came out a few months ago.
It has nothing to do with metagame, and you're the one being narrow-minded.
On May 12 2012 00:04 Demorase wrote: It's funny because even though MVP could potentially win this season he doesn't really seem like a champion at all unlike the previous seasons when he won.
I mean you gotta do what you gotta do to win, but his run feels kind of cheap imo. You know how it feels, like when Rain reached the finals about a year ago only to get destroyed by MC because he got there by cheesing only and had no idea how to play a real TvP. Now MVP's cheeses are much more elaborate compared to Rain's of course, but they're cheeses nonetheless.
1. The man has serious wrist issues. 2. lategame tvp is disgusting atm.
1. Yeah I know, I hope he gets better, point still stands though
2. MarineKing is able to win straight up TvP without relying on gimmicks nearly as much as MVP, why can't MVP?
And about cheese, technically what he did were more of "timing attacks" which is just an elaborate term for "big cheese" basically you know
Because Mvp's wrists are exploding and in order to play late-game TvP and even survive the deathball you need unbelievable unit control, something that Mvp lacks currently.
I don't mind him all-ining for his 4th championship, because he's playing extremely smartly and preparing early-game timings for his TvP games. Something that Marineking probably should have done to beat PartinG in the Ro8.
Yeah that's true, would be nice if he can win a longer tvp during the finals though, just to prove he can do it. I like to think champions should be more of the complete package than just one-trick poneys
Did you just imply that a guy with 3 gsls going into his 4th final is a one trick pony? You must be trolling.
In TvP yeah, 100% of his wins against P so far have been 1 or 2 base all-ins that ended the game at around the 10 min mark.
Like I said, personally I don't mind timing attacks, but when it's only thing the player can do then it shows he's limited in this match-up.
Considering Parting watched Naniwa's games, and then talked with him for a week about them, and was already the best PvT in the world... I think it's safe to assume MVP had more mind games going on than just blind all in every game.
"With a 3 – 0 victory over Liquid`HerO, ST_Squirtle improved to 14 – 1 in Code S Season Two and stepped one series closer to achieving the best run in GSL history."
Uh, didn't NesTea win a season without dropping a single game?
On May 14 2012 14:24 mrjpark wrote: "With a 3 – 0 victory over Liquid`HerO, ST_Squirtle improved to 14 – 1 in Code S Season Two and stepped one series closer to achieving the best run in GSL history."
Uh, didn't NesTea win a season without dropping a single game?
Yes, but that was still not as impressive if you look at it. NesTea won GSL July with a total score of 14-0, by first getting a walkover against Rain and beating July. In the bracket play he then went 2-0 vs Ensnare, 3-0 vs CoCa, 3-0 vs HongUn and finally 4-0 vs LosirA. None of these players are even close to NesTea's skill level on paper, plus that the tournament itself was a lot smaller back then.
Compare this to Squirtle's run this season. After losing his very first game, he came back to beat MMA 2-1 and then Leenock 2-0 in the Ro32, then it was Oz and Maru, also 2-0's, and now in the playoffs he's 3-0'ed both Taeja and HerO, and is now facing off against Mvp. Not only are these victims a hell of a lot more impressive kills on paper, but his 14 winstreak that has now tied NesTea's previous record might still be extended, depending on how the first game(s) of the finals will go. If everything goes smoothly he could end up with a perfect 18 Code S winstreak.
it's kind of funny because tvp plays out a lot like bio tvz. i think the 'protoss is so strong late game' argument is more the result of people playing bio as standard in tvp and not in other matchups. bio is a composition that is stronger and relies on doing damage early on while riding momentum to victory, and gets weaker in the late game. if mech were viable in tvp, bio wouldn't be standard and it wouldn't be imbalanced.
On May 14 2012 14:24 mrjpark wrote: "With a 3 – 0 victory over Liquid`HerO, ST_Squirtle improved to 14 – 1 in Code S Season Two and stepped one series closer to achieving the best run in GSL history."
Uh, didn't NesTea win a season without dropping a single game?
Yes, but that was still not as impressive if you look at it. NesTea won GSL July with a total score of 14-0, by first getting a walkover against Rain and beating July. In the bracket play he then went 2-0 vs Ensnare, 3-0 vs CoCa, 3-0 vs HongUn and finally 4-0 vs LosirA. None of these players are even close to NesTea's skill level on paper, plus that the tournament itself was a lot smaller back then.
Compare this to Squirtle's run this season. After losing his very first game, he came back to beat MMA 2-1 and then Leenock 2-0 in the Ro32, then it was Oz and Maru, also 2-0's, and now in the playoffs he's 3-0'ed both Taeja and HerO, and is now facing off against Mvp. Not only are these victims a hell of a lot more impressive kills on paper, but his 14 winstreak that has now tied NesTea's previous record might still be extended, depending on how the first game(s) of the finals will go. If everything goes smoothly he could end up with a perfect 18 Code S winstreak.
NesTea went on a 20-0 Code S winstreak back then though, from the 5 games at the end of GSL July up until losing to MMA in GSL August Ro32.
So technically NesTea's winstreak is still the longest.
On May 14 2012 21:45 crocodile wrote: it's kind of funny because tvp plays out a lot like bio tvz. i think the 'protoss is so strong late game' argument is more the result of people playing bio as standard in tvp and not in other matchups. bio is a composition that is stronger and relies on doing damage early on while riding momentum to victory, and gets weaker in the late game. if mech were viable in tvp, bio wouldn't be standard and it wouldn't be imbalanced.
In TvP the advantage for Protoss is a lot stronger than for Zerg in TvZ, and with units like HT and Zealots they are a LOT more cost effective when dealing with drops and harassment from bio play, but bio is still the most cost efficient play-style possible until someone from Blizzard comes up with a buff to one of the mech units.
All the pros have said mech is awful in TvP, the only one saying it's good is Artosis and he's a Protoss player, pro-players (especially the Korean pro-players) practice all the army compositions they can in all the match ups, and they probably try to make them work, but they don't.
Until the pros can figure it out (assuming they can without a balance change) mech TvP is not cost-effective and not viable.
On May 13 2012 02:04 snakeeyez wrote: Its funny how fast people start writing off a player if they do not win anything recently even though they were and probably are still a top player like mvp. I mean hes the most accomplished player in starcraft 2 still it was not just by luck. That being said we know TvP is in protoss favor late game after all the P buffs like upgrades being cheaper mvp knows its stacked against him balance wise late game.
I love the ridiculous spin placed upon these finals. If MVP loses, it's not because squirtle is a very good protoss, or because MVP historically had a weaker TvP winning most of his championships on the back of his god-tier TvT/TvZ. It's none of that. It's because TvP is imbalanced. And of course, if MVP wins, well then he's just a god and theres simply no disputing it.
Actually if he loses it's because he has CTS in both wrists.
But no, a lot of people will not say that TvP is imbalanced if Squirtle wins or if Mvp wins will they say it's balanced, TvP is imbalanced at the moment because of how the match up plays out. Terran is very strong early-game, and can win with all-ins, like the way Mvp has been winning against NaNiwa and PartinG. Protoss is incredibly OP after a certain time in-game if the Terran hasn't done enough economic damage, and can literally faceroll the Terran army.
Blizzard thinks those two cancel each other out, which really they do, but they don't make for interesting matches, they literally make the match up so that there is one big battle that one side wins or loses and then it's gg, which is awful balance.
Yeah, it's not imbalanced. TvP is much more dynamic than simply declaring that a protoss is unbeatable after a certain "in-game" time, with no variables. You can, however, much more safely and accurately acknowledge a meta game swing in favor of Protoss in PvT.
Did you actually think you're explaining to someone who doesn't know? Lol.
And yes, he does have CTS, but CTS won't be mentioned nearly as much as imbalance.
Calling TvP a dynamic match up is a joke, it's probably the least dynamic match up in the game.
If you're going to be narrow minded and observe this specific metagame as the only end-all TvP metagame that has ever existed, then maybe, in this particular vacuum, it's not very dynamic. I guess SC2 came out a few months ago.
It has nothing to do with metagame, and you're the one being narrow-minded.
TvP is a joke.
You don't even understand what metagame means, do you?
On May 13 2012 02:04 snakeeyez wrote: Its funny how fast people start writing off a player if they do not win anything recently even though they were and probably are still a top player like mvp. I mean hes the most accomplished player in starcraft 2 still it was not just by luck. That being said we know TvP is in protoss favor late game after all the P buffs like upgrades being cheaper mvp knows its stacked against him balance wise late game.
I love the ridiculous spin placed upon these finals. If MVP loses, it's not because squirtle is a very good protoss, or because MVP historically had a weaker TvP winning most of his championships on the back of his god-tier TvT/TvZ. It's none of that. It's because TvP is imbalanced. And of course, if MVP wins, well then he's just a god and theres simply no disputing it.
Actually if he loses it's because he has CTS in both wrists.
But no, a lot of people will not say that TvP is imbalanced if Squirtle wins or if Mvp wins will they say it's balanced, TvP is imbalanced at the moment because of how the match up plays out. Terran is very strong early-game, and can win with all-ins, like the way Mvp has been winning against NaNiwa and PartinG. Protoss is incredibly OP after a certain time in-game if the Terran hasn't done enough economic damage, and can literally faceroll the Terran army.
Blizzard thinks those two cancel each other out, which really they do, but they don't make for interesting matches, they literally make the match up so that there is one big battle that one side wins or loses and then it's gg, which is awful balance.
Yeah, it's not imbalanced. TvP is much more dynamic than simply declaring that a protoss is unbeatable after a certain "in-game" time, with no variables. You can, however, much more safely and accurately acknowledge a meta game swing in favor of Protoss in PvT.
Did you actually think you're explaining to someone who doesn't know? Lol.
And yes, he does have CTS, but CTS won't be mentioned nearly as much as imbalance.
Calling TvP a dynamic match up is a joke, it's probably the least dynamic match up in the game.
If you're going to be narrow minded and observe this specific metagame as the only end-all TvP metagame that has ever existed, then maybe, in this particular vacuum, it's not very dynamic. I guess SC2 came out a few months ago.
It has nothing to do with metagame, and you're the one being narrow-minded.
TvP is a joke.
You don't even understand what metagame means, do you?
I think the question is that do you understand what it means? You sound like you know absolutely nothing.
The argument you are trying to make is the same stupid argument that every biased Protoss player says when the TvP discussion comes up; change your unit composition.
Obviously you're just being ignorant of the actual problem at hand, as changing the unit composition simply doesn't account for the level of efficiency that the Protoss army has in late-game TvP.
If the meta-game does change, and some Terran pro does find an efficient composition out of the pitiful arsenal of T1-2 units that can be cost effective during late-game, then the first place it'll be seen is in the Korean pro scene, not the NA or EU scene.
At the moment Mvp is seemingly doing what is needed; trying to make Protoss players less greedy by just going all-in so that Terrans can actually start going into the late-game without an enormous disadvantage.
On May 14 2012 21:45 crocodile wrote: it's kind of funny because tvp plays out a lot like bio tvz. i think the 'protoss is so strong late game' argument is more the result of people playing bio as standard in tvp and not in other matchups. bio is a composition that is stronger and relies on doing damage early on while riding momentum to victory, and gets weaker in the late game. if mech were viable in tvp, bio wouldn't be standard and it wouldn't be imbalanced.
In TvP the advantage for Protoss is a lot stronger than for Zerg in TvZ, and with units like HT and Zealots they are a LOT more cost effective when dealing with drops and harassment from bio play, but bio is still the most cost efficient play-style possible until someone from Blizzard comes up with a buff to one of the mech units.
All the pros have said mech is awful in TvP, the only one saying it's good is Artosis and he's a Protoss player, pro-players (especially the Korean pro-players) practice all the army compositions they can in all the match ups, and they probably try to make them work, but they don't.
Until the pros can figure it out (assuming they can without a balance change) mech TvP is not cost-effective and not viable.
I'm well aware (discussion of the mech builds pros like mkp have been using aside) that mech is not viable. Zerf'soptions for dealing with Bio are just as strong as protoss', and the goal is the same in both mus. Pressure him so he cannot cost effectively engage you without getting out his tech, but he can't get his tech out if he can't engage you cost effectively. That cost effectiveness usually comes down to micro.
Great article, i agree with nearly everything, however its obvious that the writer is not a fan of Mvp which taints the parts about his games a little. After watching the Mvp-Parting series I personally felt that Mvp just looked much stronger and parting let nerves get to him. 1-1-1 not included all of the builds that Mvp used were pretty safe and standard untill he saw an oppurtunity and lets be fair throwing in one cheese in a best of 5 series is not only exusable its advisable, especially after winning game one like that, I thought it was the right move and it won him the game. As for Hero-Squirtle i was torn on who to root for as it would be neat to have a TL champ, however as a player I do like Squirtle alot, (not that i dislike Hero) and i hope he does well in the finals, again hard to decide who to root for so ill just root for a full set of awesome games, that way we all win...how's that for cheese XD
On May 14 2012 14:24 mrjpark wrote: "With a 3 – 0 victory over Liquid`HerO, ST_Squirtle improved to 14 – 1 in Code S Season Two and stepped one series closer to achieving the best run in GSL history."
Uh, didn't NesTea win a season without dropping a single game?
Yes, but that was still not as impressive if you look at it. NesTea won GSL July with a total score of 14-0, by first getting a walkover against Rain and beating July. In the bracket play he then went 2-0 vs Ensnare, 3-0 vs CoCa, 3-0 vs HongUn and finally 4-0 vs LosirA. None of these players are even close to NesTea's skill level on paper, plus that the tournament itself was a lot smaller back then.
Compare this to Squirtle's run this season. After losing his very first game, he came back to beat MMA 2-1 and then Leenock 2-0 in the Ro32, then it was Oz and Maru, also 2-0's, and now in the playoffs he's 3-0'ed both Taeja and HerO, and is now facing off against Mvp. Not only are these victims a hell of a lot more impressive kills on paper, but his 14 winstreak that has now tied NesTea's previous record might still be extended, depending on how the first game(s) of the finals will go. If everything goes smoothly he could end up with a perfect 18 Code S winstreak.
I don't know, I'm not saying Taeja or HerO are bad, but I don't really think they "belonged" as far along in the tournament as they got this year. MMA is slumping hard and his TvP is less than impressive. Maru is good, but he's so young and there's really not enough games played by him to really know how good he really is. The only wins that I found super impressive this season was Leenock and Oz...but then again, I've been really high on Squirtle for a long time now.
Back when NesTea 3-0'd CoCa, CoCa was looking mighty impressive and people were wondering who (other than NesTea) could stop him. Apparently Byun. Yeah, NesTea's run wasn't so impressive itself, but CoCa and LosirA were both considered two of the scariest guys in Code S at the time and Ensnare and HongUn were both "solid Code S" non-contenders at the time too. It's easy to look back at their play now and talk about how bad they were, but that's only because of how far the game has progressed since then. It's not that these guys were below par for their time, but that NesTea was so far ahead of everyone else.
Not to toot his horn too much, but I do think going undefeated is still a pretty damn good achievement. Especially when you're playing people noticeably worse than you, as you have a giant target on your back and are about to get the shit cheesed out of you.
EPT
Mvp <Entombed Valley> 
PartinG![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/shiroiusagi/misc/naniwa_toss_poster_2012_thum.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/shiroiusagi/misc/naniwa_toss_poster_2012.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://file.thisisgame.com/upload/board/2012/05/10/20120510195106_7198.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/p480x480/542938_305202612895896_183610835055075_694315_473623777_n.jpg)
