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Maps in the Balance - Page 3

Forum Index > News
280 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 13 14 15 Next All
Honeybadger
Profile Joined August 2010
United States821 Posts
November 14 2011 22:43 GMT
#41
I want more positioning based maps. I'm tired of having my tank line simply get circumvented and have nothing I can do.

Crevasse was a favorite of mine. And I liked scrap station.
"I like to tape my thumbs to my hands to see what it would be like to be a dinosaur."
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
November 14 2011 22:43 GMT
#42
--- Nuked ---
Zetter
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Germany629 Posts
November 14 2011 22:43 GMT
#43
New maps are what keeps BW dynamic even after 12 years. I agree that not enough attention is paid in terms of maps in SC2. Always playing the same map doesn't only concern balance, it's a lot about entertainment as well. I have to say that Metalopolis is getting quite boring.
Mendici sumus. Hoc est verum. | I don't mind straight people, as long as they act gay in public. | Es ist keine Tugend edel geboren werden, sondern sich edel machen | οἶδα οὐκ εἰδώς
CountZero71
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany89 Posts
November 14 2011 22:44 GMT
#44
Nice article!
I would totally support the point, that seeing pro gamers utilize "real" pro maps in much more intense ways then the usual ladder player is much more entertaining in the major tournaments.

But I also very much like the fact to see our heroes play on the very same map as I am laddering on. So, of course the map pool on the ladder should be improved continuously as should be the "pro-map pool". But I would oppose to a total separation.
You cannot kill what doesn't die...
TedJustice
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1324 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 22:45:12
November 14 2011 22:44 GMT
#45
On November 15 2011 07:23 TheKefka wrote:
Show nested quote +
A map doesn't have to be tested to be played in a tournament. Playing it in a tournament IS testing it, and that's the only way it's going to gain any reputation, good or bad.

That's a pretty bad idea buddy.You make it sound like tournaments would be able to just throw in random maps that seem nice to them without consulting the player base.

They should.

If it turns out the map is bad, they'll get flak for that, and they'll learn their lesson for next time.

Obviously consulting the player base couldn't hurt though. Maybe polling the players on a bunch of different maps and only including the most agreed ones or something.
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
November 14 2011 22:45 GMT
#46
another note, i think a lot of effort has been made to create bw maps for sc2. mostly for the nostalgia factor. this is awesome and all, but the problem is that with the new unit abilities (blink, warpins, etc.) it is harder to create those as balanced maps. what was good for the goose (bw) is not good for the gander (sc2) unfortunately. a lot of effort was spent that could have created awesome maps for future mlg, ipl and nasl tournaments (and other smaller ones).

still fun to play destination on sc2 though. awesome map. =)
pbjsandwich
Profile Joined August 2010
United States443 Posts
November 14 2011 22:46 GMT
#47
Fighting Spirit is the best map ever.
Sphen5117
Profile Joined September 2011
United States413 Posts
November 14 2011 22:46 GMT
#48
On November 15 2011 07:15 Leeoku wrote:
this should be linked to the whine about why metalop is still in the map pool. sure it is slightly favoured but compared to all the other maps and in terms of symmetry etc it is one of the best..


But that's the thing: it's bad to only make a decision based on which choice is the lesser of two evils. Being "relatively" one of the best is a tricky statement. It is still not as balanced as it could be, and therefore, eSports should not be satisfied.

We all love this game, and are dedicated to it. As thus, we shouldn't settle for anything less than the best. I don't want the first time a foreigner gets to the GSL finals to be determined by map imbalances (game imbalances aside). I want it to be determed by epic, earned skill.
Darth Caedus
Profile Joined May 2011
United States326 Posts
November 14 2011 22:47 GMT
#49
Solid read.

I really do think maps are the real finess method to balancing, unit patching can cause such massive changes to any matchup.
Polt: "Those auto-turrets are cute." 10/26/13 commenting on MMA vs. Maru.
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
November 14 2011 22:48 GMT
#50
On November 15 2011 07:44 TedJustice wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 07:23 TheKefka wrote:
A map doesn't have to be tested to be played in a tournament. Playing it in a tournament IS testing it, and that's the only way it's going to gain any reputation, good or bad.

That's a pretty bad idea buddy.You make it sound like tournaments would be able to just throw in random maps that seem nice to them without consulting the player base.

They should.

If it turns out the map is bad, they'll get flak for that, and they'll learn their lesson for next time.

Obviously consulting the player base couldn't hurt though. Maybe polling the players on a bunch of different maps and only including the most agreed ones or something.

when your hero loses because of a major map flaw, you will be less than pleased with the map and the tournament organizers. remember when idra got blunked by nazgul. hilarious for a few minutes, but then i said "piece of shit map" because idra lost!
Genie1
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada333 Posts
November 14 2011 22:49 GMT
#51
On November 15 2011 07:36 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
wow BW maps were fucking small weren't they? did units generally move slower or what? Or were the maps really "smaller" in BW in comparison?

But anyways, great write up! MLG+GSL collaboration is what's keeping me faithful. Otherwise chaos would ensue xD


Units moved slower in Brood War then in SC2.

Nice article and great to see GSL and MLG working together to make an amazing map pool for all tournaments to follow but the thing is what about Blizzard's Ladder maps? What if Blizzard doesn't want to comply with these tournament maps for ladder map pool on Battle.net 2.0? This is something they need to focus on is convincing Blizzard to use these maps because if they don't then the Ladder system is useless all together and then how will Pros train? Between themselves? Yeah that's nice for a bit but at some point they need to play other players in case someone developed a new strategy that is extremely powerful and could blind side them at a tournament unexpectedly because they were never playing on the ladder and just mostly between themselves on the team and maybe with another team that wants to practice together. It's also scary that it could cause a divide between the community which is what no one wants at all because everyone wants to improve there game. I just hope they are also talking to Blizzard about these map pools and to see if they can have them used on the ladder pool too so that everyone can practice on them.
[RAVEN ONLINE] "You don't talk like us" [....CAW CAW] -QXC
KristianJS
Profile Joined October 2009
2107 Posts
November 14 2011 22:50 GMT
#52
Great topic! Having started as a massive BW fan, I always thought more focus should be put on the implementation of new maps. Like you wrote though, in BW Kespa had professional mapmakers whose maps would be tested by progamers before being put into play. SC2 needs to organize something like that
You need to be 100% behind someone before you can stab them in the back
AEsgaims
Profile Joined November 2010
United States237 Posts
November 14 2011 22:50 GMT
#53
Jungle Basin was a great map.
Wuster
Profile Joined May 2011
1974 Posts
November 14 2011 22:51 GMT
#54
On November 15 2011 07:04 Xxio wrote:
A different map pool for every major tournament would be detrimental as all but the most dedicated spectators would be lost and the pros would be less than accustomed to the intricacies of each terrain, frustrated with having to practice on a unique set of maps for a single tournament. Rather than having a confusing and disjointed map pool, ideally, major tournaments like MLG and GSL, already working in close collaboration, will create a system for creating and implementing maps that can be adopted by all tournaments. With such a system in place a 'standard' map pool for professional StarCraft 2 could be created and a cycle of replacement accepted.


I wholeheartedly agree with this entire article except this part.

I agree that new maps makes it confusing for spectators. Like the first few times I watched Crevasse I had no idea where the hell the attack paths were or why units were positioned the way they were.

However, I think different maps for different tournaments has a lot of pluses. For one, different tournaments would start looking differently, they would play differently, certain strategies might be favored on certain map pools (as long as balance isn't effected). Sure this makes it hard for pros to jump from tournament to tournament, but that should be a good thing.

Looking at MLG they have 20 seeded layers and 4 GSL invites. But most viewers could think of ~8 more players they would like to see in the pools anyways. That is, there are more than enough players in SC2 right now that tournaments can have regional make-ups.

If every tournament has the same map pool, you loose this 'home field' advantage and you end up making every tournament ranked one after the other, rather than having a lot of separate tournament scenes that flourish independently. This isn't to say Koreans should be excluded from Western tournaments, but it would make it that much greater when West and East do face off in a tournament. When you have that strict heirarchy that does hurt the perceived lesser league after all (Code A versus Code S viewership for example).

It's possible SC2's viewership/playerbase isn't big enough to support this kind of diversity but I think eventually it would be a good thing. And it's kind of starting anyways, with ESV Weekly having a unique map pool (and players still enter that tournament).
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
November 14 2011 22:51 GMT
#55
Ahaha I remember the time when I was happy to get xelnaga and jungle basin ... then i played jb 20times. xD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
November 14 2011 22:52 GMT
#56
On November 15 2011 07:43 Barrin wrote:
Fuck yes!

Maps deserve so much more attention, and I'm not just saying that because I'm a mapmaker (most mapmakers are aware of the problem).

From pro gamers to jonny bronze, from tournament organizers to sponsors... casters, analysts, streamers, team leaders, community figures, and not least of all Blizzard: I implore you to (1) accept and promote the use of more dynamic map pools, and (2) also participate in the discussions of the more prominent maps.

So. Much Potential.

I've already read this three or four times before it was posted and no new thoughts.
Instead I'll say: Great Job! ^_^)b
and
I completely agree with Barrin.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
CeriseCherries
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
6170 Posts
November 14 2011 22:53 GMT
#57
Holy fuck. I switched to Zerg right before steppes was removed from ladder. I won 2 games total there total... q.q

bleh there isn't like there's a dearth of good maps. its just that blizzard keeps putting silly maps into the ladder pool...
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
November 14 2011 22:56 GMT
#58
Putting maps into the center of attention is a good idea, because they might be able to solve one of the bigger problems of starcraft 2. Blizzard is aiming to balance the game not only for the top professionals, but also for the casual players, which might not be possible. However, a decent chunk of the balancing occurs over the maps, so if we could have both parties play on different maps then we can use the maps to balance on both sides seperately.
MisterKatosS
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
France352 Posts
November 14 2011 22:57 GMT
#59
could'nt agree more ...
in fact yes I could and I did: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=272141
My web development company website : http://www.make-me-a-website.net My Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/MrKatoss
Tortious_Tortoise
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States944 Posts
November 14 2011 22:58 GMT
#60
I think it would be extremely interesting to force Pros to prepare for tournaments paying particular attention to the map-pools. I think what OP is trying to say (and I could be wrong) is that GSL-June and MLG Columbus (assuming it's in June again) should have the same map pool, and that the map-pool of GSL-August and MLG Raleigh (again assuming Raleigh is in August) would also be identical, but that the map-pool would be different than that of GSL-MLG-June. I think that is a fantastic idea. It would ask professionals to throw themselves into the depths of ignorance and challenge them to use their wits, their courage, and their intellectual magnanimity to hoist and claw themselves from the pits of ignorance into the light of knowledge and gosu-play. Long story short, it would separate the men from the boys.
Treating eSports as a social science since 2011; Credo: "The system is never wrong"-- Day9 Daily #400 Part 3
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