The ladder is the #1 reason to this. People play on the ladder. Pros train on the ladder. And the ladder maps are the Blizz ones. We need a custom ladder or FINALLY a ladder for custom maps. Can't wait for this.

Whiplash

United States2929 Posts

November 14 2011 23:01 GMT

#62

EXCELLENT post, at this point maps are going to help balance sc2 more then blizzard will (at least till hots and the metagame resets) and we as a community need to push organizers to use less and less blizzard maps and more custom maps from a somewhat standardized pro map pool. It would be great if blizzard followed suit and basically introduced the maps from a "pro" map pool into ladder play as time goes on and try to not use any of their horrid maps instead.

RaiZ

2813 Posts

November 14 2011 23:03 GMT

#63

Even though the maps plays a very important role, we gotta admit that there are some units that need some tweaks. There are so many wrong things with the units first... Yeah yeah i know it's not a thread with balance but I still feel the need to talk about it before we can adjust the maps....

Vindicare605

United States16118 Posts

November 14 2011 23:07 GMT

#64

Great write up.

Totally agreed. There is not nearly as much discussion about maps on any of these forums as there should be.

Syrupjuice

United States173 Posts

November 14 2011 23:09 GMT

#65

Wow, fantastic post, and great presentation (in terms of graphics and flow of the article).

Now, onto the content of the post. I have to agree that I think having more custom maps in tournaments would help push the level of play that we are seeing. For example, Metalopolis is a great map and all… but it is incredibly old. I mean, goodness, the map (Essentially) has been around for over a year and half now. Yes, it was fun to watch pros play on the maps that I was familiar with… but after a year of seeing the same terrain things seem to be stagnating a little bit. I don't think any type of extreme map rotation is needed, but it would be nice to see maps cycle in and out gradually to keep things interesting and stories going.

I would also like to play on new maps, because exploring new terrain in games is always fun and exciting c:

Theovide

Sweden914 Posts

November 14 2011 23:12 GMT

#66

Awesome post. I've been thinking about this myself recently, I never played broodwar but I'm aware of the fact that in BW races was believed to be basically balanced, but instead maps where imba. In SC2 it's been the opposite, I mean some obvious map imbalances like old ST in TvZ where complained about instead of balance, but not less obvious imbalances in maps that are still present and greatly can affect both tournament and ladder experience..

TERRANLOL

United States626 Posts

November 14 2011 23:12 GMT

#67

On November 15 2011 07:15 Leeoku wrote:
this should be linked to the whine about why metalop is still in the map pool. sure it is slightly favoured but compared to all the other maps and in terms of symmetry etc it is one of the best..

Your argument doesn't make any sense in context.
Blizzard removed the map because it was one of the most imbalanced maps on the ladder.
These are the stats for the pros. Not for the average player.
You can either make the argument that the map pool should be balanced for both the average player and the pro, but you can't take elements from each and make a single coherent thought.

Reptilia

Chile913 Posts

November 14 2011 23:14 GMT

#68

On November 15 2011 07:08 TheKefka wrote:

Show nested quote +

I don't see how Jungle Basin is worse than steppes of war.At least you were able to win a ZvP here and there on JB.

statistics show that jungle basin was more imbalanced

Superouman

France2195 Posts

November 14 2011 23:15 GMT

#69

On November 15 2011 07:04 Xxio wrote:
A different map pool for every major tournament would be detrimental as all but the most dedicated spectators would be lost and the pros would be less than accustomed to the intricacies of each terrain, frustrated with having to practice on a unique set of maps for a single tournament. Rather than having a confusing and disjointed map pool, ideally, major tournaments like MLG and GSL, already working in close collaboration, will create a system for creating and implementing maps that can be adopted by all tournaments. With such a system in place a 'standard' map pool for professional StarCraft 2 could be created and a cycle of replacement accepted.

Oh my god yes! I was thinking about this for months now, i absolutely love that you say it in public. This absolutly has to be done!

Taekwon

United States8155 Posts

November 14 2011 23:15 GMT

#70

This is sex.
Thanks for the fighting spirit.

DIMAGA

Ukraine38 Posts

November 14 2011 23:15 GMT

#71

what is difference between metalopolis and metalopolis 1.1 ?? no close position or what ? Oo

Gatored

United States679 Posts

November 14 2011 23:15 GMT

#72

Jungle Basin good times... rofl.

John Madden

American Samoa894 Posts

November 14 2011 23:16 GMT

#73

Facebook told me to come here so lets discuss some maps, Jungle basin was my favourite imo.

ilovelings

Argentina776 Posts

November 14 2011 23:17 GMT

#74

I don't think steppes was imba. At that time 6pool was autowin. The same goes for a thor +1 timing push. With all the patches the game has received I would love to see steppes implemented again.

Ero-Sennin

United States756 Posts

November 14 2011 23:17 GMT

#75

You did an amazing job with this write up. I can only hope it does not fall on deaf ears. Although, I'll be optimistic... I don't think it will. I think there will be a change in the coming months (sooner rather than later), and I can see this happening and making the scene that much more dynamic and fun to watch.

Edited: To the person above me. Steppes is a horrible map, and it should not be entertained for any play whatsoever.

Fishriot

United States621 Posts

November 14 2011 23:18 GMT

#76

Great post, we can only hope that the ladder can evolve in a positive direction.

RcaH

Finland2 Posts

November 14 2011 23:19 GMT

#77

On November 15 2011 07:04 acgFork wrote:
Why is Jungle Basin ugly?!?!?!

probably because its one of the most terran-favored maps ever

Foamhat

19 Posts

November 14 2011 23:19 GMT

#78

Good article. Thanks

huddo38

Australia15 Posts

November 14 2011 23:19 GMT

#79

An Interesting OP, it seems to me, if SC2 does not implement a KESPA like organisation (interpret broadly), the map pool will stay stale. With map makers, tournaments and players not wanting to take risks on which maps they will play/create. (The risk occurs from not having pro player feedback)

It is in team’s interest to have a balanced and fresh map pool. It may be time to create an entity with its sole purpose to brief tournaments on potential maps. With the established teams having to play 100 games or ## and submit a report giving their players thoughts on the maps.

Alternatively this could be initiated by organisations such as GSL and MLG who would make it a requirement to enter into their tournaments. This may just result in a prisoner’s dilemma, however hopefully for the established organisations, such as the previously mentioned, it will create a cooperative prisoner’s dilemma (outcome: cooperate, cooperate)

It is my opinion, because of the international nature of SC2, if will be very hard to create a separate entity. The big tournaments may hold enough power to pull it off, especially if the community understands why they have implemented the measures.

salito

1647 Posts

November 14 2011 23:21 GMT

#80

Using Moon Glaive/Neo Moon Glaive as an example as protoss hell made little sense. It was only in testing versions that saw terran dominate. By the time it made it to Proleague, the map had been revised and PvT was fine. Indeed, the PvT splits actually favor protoss on both versions, albeit in small sample. Protoss just wasn't sent due to the difficultly of ZvP on Moon Glaive. Since total weakness in ZvP effectively limited teams from sending protoss, terrans were used almost exclusively for they dominated TvZ. So zergs stop being sent, leading to a large number of TvT mirrors, a stat that was conveniently omitted.

Moon Glaive: 29 TvT out of 63 official games.
Neo Moon Glaive: 58 TvT out of 146 official games.

tl;dr: pvt was fine on moon glaive