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Please try to keep the discussion civil. And while I can't ask everyone to write a huge essay like tree.hugger, try to write out your opinions in a substantive, well-thought way. |
On September 09 2011 16:10 Azzur wrote:I could sense a lot of protoss tears and MC fanboyism in tree.hugger's article but it was nevertheless and interesting read! My take on the matter is that protoss is a gimmick race and the players who picked them are more likely to be similarly gimmicky and all-innish. Since terrans and zergs have now figured out all their cheese and all-ins, the protoss are now struggling. I would like to extend some sympathy but that would be insincere :p Part of the reason of the problem is the broken warpgate mechanic. In fact there is a thread discussing this at the very moment. Back in february, I even wrote suggesting a nerf to WGs but compensated by a "nexus nearby defensive structure": http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189432
I think most protoss players would agree with this.
This is also the most infuriating part about playing protoss. It's not that the race is incapable of winning. But it does feel like the best protoss gameplans involve stupid gimmicky play to catch the opposing player off guard. And that's just shitty design.
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On September 09 2011 16:10 Azzur wrote:I could sense a lot of protoss tears and MC fanboyism in tree.hugger's article but it was nevertheless and interesting read! My take on the matter is that protoss is a gimmick race and the players who picked them are more likely to be similarly gimmicky and all-innish. Since terrans and zergs have now figured out all their cheese and all-ins, the protoss are now struggling. I would like to extend some sympathy but that would be insincere :p Part of the reason of the problem is the broken warpgate mechanic. In fact there is a thread discussing this at the very moment. Back in february, I even wrote suggesting a nerf to WGs but compensated by a "nexus nearby defensive structure": http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189432
Gimmicky? I'll go play Terran and look at the laundry list of options I have for openers that my opponent can't scout in a reasonable manner. And then I'll laugh cause none of my openers are all ins despite their crippling damage potential. I feel bad for Zergs since they're even more vulnerable to cheeky Terran play.
Hellion
Reaper
Bunker rush
Proxy rax rush
Banshee rush
Thor drop
1-1-1
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On September 09 2011 16:27 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 16:10 Azzur wrote:I could sense a lot of protoss tears and MC fanboyism in tree.hugger's article but it was nevertheless and interesting read! My take on the matter is that protoss is a gimmick race and the players who picked them are more likely to be similarly gimmicky and all-innish. Since terrans and zergs have now figured out all their cheese and all-ins, the protoss are now struggling. I would like to extend some sympathy but that would be insincere :p Part of the reason of the problem is the broken warpgate mechanic. In fact there is a thread discussing this at the very moment. Back in february, I even wrote suggesting a nerf to WGs but compensated by a "nexus nearby defensive structure": http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189432 You almost make it sound like it's the players fault that Protoss is the "gimmick" race. Please tell me that isn't the case, because that would be illogical beyond belief.
My take on the matter is that protoss is the gimmick race. Thus, the players that gravitate to them are most likely gimmicky.
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Russian Federation16 Posts
so sad for MC ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cdKz1.jpg)
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As a Zerg, I feel kinda bad for Protoss players because right now they're forced to go back to the drawing board. One of the big problems in my view is that, thanks in large to sentries and Templar, Protoss armies want to operate in a deathball-esque fashion. Keeping all your units in a clump ensures that you can more efficiently forcefield your opponent and cast storm without taking too much friendly fire. Units such as Collossi and High Templar are then protected by the gateway backbone, with stalkers taking care of air, FF's managing opponent ground army movement and Gaurdian shield protecting the maximum amount of units. It sounds fine.
Except that modern Zerg and Terran styles are often centered around exploiting this deathball and how it operates. The first school of thought says, "If you pack your units into one tight ball, then I'll use units with AeO damage to punish you for it"; hence the recent surge in use of tanks, infestors and banelings. The second school of thought says, "If you rely on a deathball, your best army is only as fast as your slowest unit - I'll attack you all over the place and start tearing you army apart bit by bit."
What Protoss needs is mobility (hence Blizzard's seemingly ridiculous buff to the Warp Prism and to a far, far lesser extent their buff to the mothership). Instead of changing the combat units, just give Protoss players the mechanics they need to not necessarily build up these death ball armies. I suspect and hope that future styles of Protoss will make them more fun to play, more dynamic and more diverse, where players aren't pigeonholed into doing the same thing over and over, and where watching the best Protoss players is as mesmerizing and engaging as watching the MMA's and NesTea's we currently so enjoy.
(Yes, I do think that Protoss players, by no fault of their own, are less interesting and entertaining to watch than Terrans and Zergs).
I remember seeing a thread on here (I believe it was Plexa's) detailing a "Shock and Awe" style of Protoss play. It seemed attractive and exciting, fun and engaging. I hope to see such things come out of Protoss in the future.
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Protoss is pretty much a dead race and its nothing like how it was back in the Age of Zerg Tears where 99% of all zergs were going pure roach and then complaining about imbalance. This is a time where Protoss meta game is if anything still ahead of the other races but they are just so much weaker that 4 out of 32 players in code s are Protoss and that MC has gone down to code a has pretty much nothing to do with MC's play, sure he is not on top of his game but he is far better then at least 15 players in code s.
Fact is imo that protoss need all their previous nerfs removed esp the amulet but then still needs these news buffs on top of that. Protoss has been the weakest race since beta and has been the most nerfed race since release simply because the zerg cry so much and 1 single protoss was so ahead in the meta game.
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On September 09 2011 18:12 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 16:27 HolyArrow wrote:On September 09 2011 16:10 Azzur wrote:I could sense a lot of protoss tears and MC fanboyism in tree.hugger's article but it was nevertheless and interesting read! My take on the matter is that protoss is a gimmick race and the players who picked them are more likely to be similarly gimmicky and all-innish. Since terrans and zergs have now figured out all their cheese and all-ins, the protoss are now struggling. I would like to extend some sympathy but that would be insincere :p Part of the reason of the problem is the broken warpgate mechanic. In fact there is a thread discussing this at the very moment. Back in february, I even wrote suggesting a nerf to WGs but compensated by a "nexus nearby defensive structure": http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189432 You almost make it sound like it's the players fault that Protoss is the "gimmick" race. Please tell me that isn't the case, because that would be illogical beyond belief. My take on the matter is that protoss is the gimmick race. Thus, the players that gravitate to them are most likely gimmicky.
I don't think you understand. Most of the Protoss players you see chose Protoss before anyone knew it was "gimmicky". Unless you think that people are psychic or something and could foresee this. I personally find it grossly unfair that you label players by race and seem to be putting some sort of blame on them for playing Protoss at all. What exactly is wrong with your thought process? Seriously? I don't mean to offend you, I am genuinely curious. You are basically saying, "Protoss is the gimmick race, players who picked them are gimmicky and all-inish, Protoss is now struggling, and I feel zero sympathy for them, since they're just gimmicky players that chose a gimmicky race". You say this despite the fact that the players chose Protoss long before anyone knew it was a "gimmick" race (Protoss being the "gimmick" race is already a questionable assertion, but I'll humor you on that just to show even deeper flaws with your thought process.)
So, it's somehow their fault that Protoss has turned out to be a "gimmick" race and now they're somehow paying the price for choosing a race that they didn't know would develop the way it did? Not to mention that many of them switched along the lines of what they likely played in BW, so you're basically implying that BW Protoss is also the "gimmick" race (or you just didn't think about that enough). Wow. Okay. I guess I just have nothing more I can say to that. That's... yeah. I'm speechless. I don't know if you still stand by what you're saying given the points I'm bringing up. Maybe you just didn't think things through well enough. I hope that's the case.
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MaNa, is so good in Pokemon, he could beat John in YuGiOh with his Pokemon deck!
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On September 09 2011 18:23 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 17:39 flodeskum wrote:On September 09 2011 16:10 Azzur wrote:I could sense a lot of protoss tears and MC fanboyism in tree.hugger's article but it was nevertheless and interesting read! My take on the matter is that protoss is a gimmick race and the players who picked them are more likely to be similarly gimmicky and all-innish. Since terrans and zergs have now figured out all their cheese and all-ins, the protoss are now struggling. I would like to extend some sympathy but that would be insincere :p Part of the reason of the problem is the broken warpgate mechanic. In fact there is a thread discussing this at the very moment. Back in february, I even wrote suggesting a nerf to WGs but compensated by a "nexus nearby defensive structure": http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189432 I think most protoss players would agree with this. This is also the most infuriating part about playing protoss. It's not that the race is incapable of winning. But it does feel like the best protoss gameplans involve stupid gimmicky play to catch the opposing player off guard. And that's just shitty design. If I play Terran at my level on the ladder, I can do the 111 all-in in every match-up and pick up ~50% wins. I'm not even kidding. Zerg and Terran have the capacity to be just as gimmicky and succeed, but they also have other options, whereas Protoss either don't or haven't worked them out yet. It doesn't take a genius to recognise that if people like MC can't work it out then it's impossible for most other Protoss to do so...
I know, most players can pick up terrans and do those 1 base builds with very good results.
But the problem is that a good terran can also do a safe, macro oriented build and play straight up with great results. MC does safe macro builds against inferior foreign players and wins (you can download his replays from MLG for some great pvt play), but against code-s players he can't survive past the 12 minute mark.
This is why you saw that the protoss players in code-s that beat terrans were using mostly 1 base all-ins. Both Hongun and Genius basically just used 3 gate voidray builds as if they were standard.
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The main thing is that protoss don't have too many options of a safe opening before don't seeing the terran base. If terran don't see protoss base he just scans, if protoss don't see terran base he is in the dark. Mana said that protoss would have no dificulties to hold terran timming pushes if protoss see what he is doing entirely ! witch is not possible even with a 1 gate-robo you'll get your observer sniped.
i don't care a lot if 1 1 1 is imba or not...i'm protoss and i'd like to have more options...i mean, terran has dozen of opening options and more then half is not all-in because of bunkers or mules...it'd be great if other races have this many options imho !!
^^
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"They call MC the ‘Protoss President,’ but you can't be President of a country that doesn't exist."
Woah, nice closure , made me shiver.
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On September 08 2011 17:24 zyzski wrote:
who will be SC2s revolutionist? KIM TAEK SHIN
Agreed. DTs will be the saving grace along side the phoenixes, or maybe not. Great article though, can't help but feel bad for MC.
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On September 09 2011 20:01 TG_Lelouch wrote:
Ouch MC got grilled
I think you missed the tone...
I read it more like he was absolutely re-affirming MC as the undisputed best Protoss, but that there's just not much he can do vs High-End Terran and to a lesser extent, Zerg
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I'd like to agree with all the people here talking about design.
Protoss isn't weak due to little numbers being off (attack strength, armour, speed) the problem is DESIGN and unit variety.
Terran has an amazing variety of units for almost any situation. I distinctly recall Artosis and Tasteless having a hypothetical on GSL "what would you add for Zerg in the expansion?" "what about Protoss?" "What about Terran?" - Artosis could think of shortcomings for both Z and P but when it came to T, he said it's the swiss army knife race.
This is due to design and abilities. I'm sure people will disagree - but I honestly can't think of a single thing the Terran race needs for EITHER expansion. When you think of what consistutes and RTS and what units can and can't do and should and shouldn't do, Terran have all the checkboxes ticked for close quarters, long range, anti air etc - they have a unit for almost every situation - it makes TvT very cool and exciting but as I predicted nearly a year ago, once smart people start using Terran properly, they will dominate.
I almost wish Blizzard could revoke some units for the expansion - to re-balance the game, I guess we'll have to wait and see.
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How has this article been highlighted? It's clearly a balance whine in its most obvious form? :|
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I'll preface this by saying I'm a Silver League terran, so this is more or less how I feel about things. It's not indicative of actual balance, just what I think as a terran that likes to dabble in playing random.
In my opinion, I feel like protoss requires too long to tech on those occasions I play it. Every single building has multiple layers of redundency and multiple upgrades.
An example. I reckon to trade like for like, you probably need zealot charge to deal with stimmed MMM and to deal with seige tanks. It seems silly that I build a cyber core, then build a twilight council, and THEN research charge for a unit I got coming out of a gateway. As a terran, I throw down a tech lab and I have full access to all upgrades for my marines, my basic strong unit. In order to fully upgrade a zealot, I require 3 additional buildings, all of which come at a significant mineral and time cost. I can't think "right, I'm going to push with 8 zealots and have charge ready really early at the cost of warp gate".
As terran, I throw a tech lab down, research stim/combat, then trade it off and use the tech lab for a later factory, and the only cost to me is that I can't produce two marines instead of one. Compensating for this reduction costs me 150 minerals. The tech lab costs me almost nothing to produce and can be reused. What does building a twilight council really do for me? I build it because I need to - it lets me upgrade. There's no link between the building itself and what it does. It's just there to stop protoss units being strong in the early game.
Whenever I play protoss I feel like my openings are profoundly limited. With terran I can go 111, 2 rax bunker rush, 3 rax, 1 rax maurader expand, any one of about 3 mech openings of varying natures, and two starport. Not all of them are very good, but I can pretty much do all of them. When I open as protoss I decide if I want to go gateway or.. uh.. starport? And the starport units aren't like banshees. Sure, void rays are a ridiculously stupid unit but playing against any terran who builds marines and knows how to push makes you short on luck. Phoenix are annoying, but not so annoying that they instantly cripple you like if you don't scout a cloaked banshee.
I also think that the demand on the Robotics Bay is a little much. It builds their detectors, their tank unit, and their big space control unit. Terran detectors come from the Starport, the space control unit from the factory, and the meatshield from the Barracks. It also produces their drop units, and said drop units don't find much use - if you've got a robo, shouldn't it be pumping out colossi?
The same is true of gateway units. High templar are an amazingly powerful unit but seem to have their priorities screwed up. Both ghosts and infestors come with their real heavy duty ability already researched. Couldn't they exchange Feedback and Storm, so that HTs can come out earlier and even up the ridiculous early ghost pushes?
I feel protoss don't have any options while opening. In the late game I don't think there's much of a problem - there's a lot of whining about EMP which I think needs to be nerfed a little, but protoss death balls are hard to deal with and there's a reason why so many terrans go 1/1/1 to win a game in the first 8 minutes because trying to take out deathballs with ten storms availible and 6 colossi at 3/3 is asking for trouble. Similarly, chronoboost means that a well macroed protoss is always ahead in upgrades, which is asking for trouble given how powerful colossi are.
If I were to suggest changes from my terrible Silver league level, I'd personally say:
- shift Hallucination to the Twilight Council
- put zealot charge on the cybernetics core (giving protoss an early option that can deal with large marine pushes)
- make Feedback researchable, and give Templars Storm for free
- make Warp Prisms better
That's just my opinion, though.
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Very well written, so sad for Mc sake
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Nice article, but I'm not sure I agree with all the imbalance cries. I'm a Protoss player, so I feel his pain, but there's about a million other variables that contribute to his losses other than imbalance. Yeah Protoss sucks right now but Zerg sucked a few months ago and I really don't think it was all because of the Infestor buff. All that did was spur Zergs to give up on Roach/Hydra/Corruptor. We just need a new strat. I have to bring up HuK. The article said he "can't" win, but I'm sorry, he thrashed nerds and lost to MVP, the best, if not 2nd best, player in the world who just happens to play Terran. He said himself that MVP was the better player and that it wasn't imbalance that made him lose. I just don't want to see my race become as whiny as the Zergs all were. So please, Protoss, suck it up and innovate
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EPT
