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Please try to keep the discussion civil. And while I can't ask everyone to write a huge essay like tree.hugger, try to write out your opinions in a substantive, well-thought way. |
On September 10 2011 02:23 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:11 WhiteDog wrote:On September 09 2011 13:57 Active.815 wrote:On September 09 2011 04:32 Paladia wrote:On September 09 2011 04:06 Havefa1th wrote:
To blame one player's downfall on the "faults" of an entire race is a racey and unwarranted claim. To say that no Protoss is good at ZvP is as an absurd statement as saying that 1-1-1 will forever be unholdable. The 1-1-1 will be, in the end, just another cheese (like the 4 gate and the roach-ling all-ins before it) that is scoutable and held cost-efficiently with slight build order changes and superior micro.
The fact of the matter remains is that Protoss is not underpowered, there just is no overarching Protoss "president," so to speak. Jinro himself says that MC has stagnated due to lack of provocative and innovative play. To be honest, there isn't any Protoss player that's innovating the race... meanwhile there are Zerg players (mainly foreign ones) commanding the helm of the Infestor battleship and Korean Zergs at the front of faster, safer roach based play that has shown success against a variety of unit compositions. And there are the Terrans like Boxer and the rest of SlayerS, who made one small unit (and therefore the mech composition) more popular of late due to aggressive, cost-efficient play.
Where's the Protoss? You can argue for MC's storm drop play, but that's a technique that is shadowed in the end by standard, stagnated build orders and strategies. You can argue for White-Ra, who shoves the square Warp Prism into every round hole the PvX matchup has, but in the end, it's one unit that forces no special macro-related reaction from the other player.
The lack of success is not the fault of an "imbalanced" race or the 1-1-1, it's MC's (and the rest of the Protoss PLAYERS) fault. You can't blame the losses of one player on the race. You just can't.
However...
Easily the best written article I've read on this website (about Starcraft 2, that is). Keep this shit up. There is no reason why people who pick Terran would be better players. Yet there are 17 Terrans in Code S and 5 Protoss. The top10 of the Korean ladder has 9 Terrans. Even the half decent Terran players are doing very well. Terran has highest potential for offensive/aggressive play. Terran matchups practically require you to be harassing/doing offensive plays consistently. This also gives Terran the highest non-single engagement damage potential, barring mass mutas catching toss or terran with no turrets/cannons/storms and killing every probe, nexus, and pylon ever T___T. Protoss as a race never really had to play like zerg and terran with the multi-harass. High-level koreans have insane multitasking, and terran offers the greatest potential for their multitasking~when you want to be the best, you look for the race that gives you the best advantage. Also, you say 'half decent terrans doing well'. Code A ro16: Ganzi(2-0)vsFD, sc(0-2)vsTaeja(2-0),Yoda(2-1)vsTassadar(1-2), Maka(0-2)vsLeenock(2-0), JJakji(2-0)vsLucky(0-2), MKP(2-1)vsYugioh... The only not-superhighlevel Terrans that i would say are in that list are maka and yoda, who both get knocked out by leenock (yoda in the ro8). Jjakji, Ganzi, Taeja, MKP all go on to make code S. code S ro16: MMA(1-2)vsPolt(2-1), Bomber(1-2)vsKeen(2-1), Zenio(1-2)vsTOP(2-1), Virus(1-2)vsGenius(2-1), Nestea(0-2)vsMVP(2-0), Huk(2-1)vsNada(1-2), Puzzle(0-2)vsRyung(2-0), Hongun(0-2)vsJuly(2-0) who's mediocre there? Bomber? Virus? MVP and TOP are facing off for the final, MMA and Polt have already proven themselves to be excellent players, Nada is most definitely not mediocre, Ryung has had consistent, fairly strong showings.... There is something that most of you are missing, it's that the korean scene was a huge terran / zerg scene back in SC1. I don't understand why nobody ever talk about that. The fact that, during SC1, the protoss race was the least developped race for a long time while terran (from boxer to nada... and flash) and zerg (july, savior, jaedong) all had their own bonjwa. Who's the protoss bonjwa ? Nal_rA ? Garimto ? Stork ? Old legends and well... stork who never had the dominance flash or jaedong had. SC2 is a new game, but in korea, SC1 WAS EVERYTHING about esport, and SC2 came into that very scene : that's why there are least protoss and protoss is least developped (MC and sangho are the two only old SC1 pro gamer who switched to SC2's protoss, while marineking went terran). If you compare to europe, where protoss are HUGE. Look again : the most successful foreigner in code A & S is a protoss player (huk). Look now, yellow is switching, which race did he decided to play ? Obviously... zerg. Korea = zerg and terran heavy. It's not like there are just a few more dominant terrans and zergs. Protoss isn't even competitive in Code S. They are a joke, and the winrates are pitiful. Simply saying that there were more terran in sc1 so of course there are no good protoss players...it's absolute shit. The winrates and race representation at the highest level don't lie, and it's too extreme to be a coincidence. Protoss is too weak or limited at the highest level.
No I'm saying the overall pool of high level protoss player in korea should be weaker for historic and cultural reasons.
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On September 10 2011 02:18 n0btozz wrote:
I don´t understand why people are talking about Protoss being a gimmicky race? It´s a race with super expensive units, that until higher in the tech route, are very cost-inefficient...Being able to 4 gate doesn´t make it a gimmicky race, and the fact we have 2 base 6/7 gate pushes, doesn´t make it gimmicky either.
If you can´t win because the race is simply underpowered, it´s pretty natural to go for some sort of cheese to even have a shot of winning.
This ain´t rocket science :/
Yes, you are correct. Super expensive units, very cost inefficient until very late tech is reached. They also are terribly weak in small groups, and the early game is horrible.
This means protoss has to rely on other things. * Gimmicky things*. 2 base pushes, 4 gate, 100% unsafe builds against pressure to even have a slight chance to beat that 1-1-1 all in.
With gimmicky, we mean that protoss needs to rely on things that terran/zerg can quickly figure out, and that protoss units are only reasonably ok with their upgrades. Stalkers are okay when they get blink and +2 and when you have superior micro. Marines are good units already, and with combat shields and stim they are very strong. With protoss upgrades, it doesn't feel like they add something. It feels like they make the unit only somewhat useful.
Like we see now, these gimmicks have been figured out and protoss is being destroyed. Terran destroys protoss with the 1-1-1, even if they know it's coming and if they can prepare optimally. Zerg figured out they can outmacro protoss a lot and still be safe to any possible pressure or harass.
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On September 10 2011 01:03 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 09:47 OlorinTheWise wrote:On September 09 2011 08:53 Erasme wrote:
5 rax reaper was nerfed because of 1v1, I'm tired of seeing people thinking that it wasn't an abusive strat. See MorroW vs Idra at IEM. I never said it wasn't an abusive strategy. However, the primary reason that the Reaper was nerfed was how imbalanced it was in 2v2, not 1v1. Oh sorry, I was diamond when 5rax reaper was in place. Where were you ? By the way abusive = imbalanced and yes you can say it was imbalanced since the counter of that strat (roach + speed) was nullified by expand + marauders from terran. At high level MorroW used it against superior player (Idra just when he was back from Korea). He also said in that interview that 5rax reapers against zerg is abusive. Does anyone remember ? 'Oh noes it was for 2v2, 1v1 tournament wasn't plagued with this strat !' Thank you mister protoss. I will repeat myself about the 'imbalance' in PvT. We cannot say now that there is an imbalance, we will be able to see it in months.
I'm not sure if you understand the irony, but your "we cannot say there's an imbalance, let's wait a few months" was exactly what Terran players said back in the 5RR days. Similarly, inferior Terran players are beating superior Protosses with the 1/1/1, and MVP tweeted that Terrans who 1/1/1 should be disqualified.
You, right now, are the same as the Terrans back then, who wanted to wait for Zerg to figure out a response to 5RR.
On September 10 2011 02:11 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:57 Active.815 wrote:On September 09 2011 04:32 Paladia wrote:On September 09 2011 04:06 Havefa1th wrote:
To blame one player's downfall on the "faults" of an entire race is a racey and unwarranted claim. To say that no Protoss is good at ZvP is as an absurd statement as saying that 1-1-1 will forever be unholdable. The 1-1-1 will be, in the end, just another cheese (like the 4 gate and the roach-ling all-ins before it) that is scoutable and held cost-efficiently with slight build order changes and superior micro.
The fact of the matter remains is that Protoss is not underpowered, there just is no overarching Protoss "president," so to speak. Jinro himself says that MC has stagnated due to lack of provocative and innovative play. To be honest, there isn't any Protoss player that's innovating the race... meanwhile there are Zerg players (mainly foreign ones) commanding the helm of the Infestor battleship and Korean Zergs at the front of faster, safer roach based play that has shown success against a variety of unit compositions. And there are the Terrans like Boxer and the rest of SlayerS, who made one small unit (and therefore the mech composition) more popular of late due to aggressive, cost-efficient play.
Where's the Protoss? You can argue for MC's storm drop play, but that's a technique that is shadowed in the end by standard, stagnated build orders and strategies. You can argue for White-Ra, who shoves the square Warp Prism into every round hole the PvX matchup has, but in the end, it's one unit that forces no special macro-related reaction from the other player.
The lack of success is not the fault of an "imbalanced" race or the 1-1-1, it's MC's (and the rest of the Protoss PLAYERS) fault. You can't blame the losses of one player on the race. You just can't.
However...
Easily the best written article I've read on this website (about Starcraft 2, that is). Keep this shit up. There is no reason why people who pick Terran would be better players. Yet there are 17 Terrans in Code S and 5 Protoss. The top10 of the Korean ladder has 9 Terrans. Even the half decent Terran players are doing very well. Terran has highest potential for offensive/aggressive play. Terran matchups practically require you to be harassing/doing offensive plays consistently. This also gives Terran the highest non-single engagement damage potential, barring mass mutas catching toss or terran with no turrets/cannons/storms and killing every probe, nexus, and pylon ever T___T. Protoss as a race never really had to play like zerg and terran with the multi-harass. High-level koreans have insane multitasking, and terran offers the greatest potential for their multitasking~when you want to be the best, you look for the race that gives you the best advantage. Also, you say 'half decent terrans doing well'. Code A ro16: Ganzi(2-0)vsFD, sc(0-2)vsTaeja(2-0),Yoda(2-1)vsTassadar(1-2), Maka(0-2)vsLeenock(2-0), JJakji(2-0)vsLucky(0-2), MKP(2-1)vsYugioh... The only not-superhighlevel Terrans that i would say are in that list are maka and yoda, who both get knocked out by leenock (yoda in the ro8). Jjakji, Ganzi, Taeja, MKP all go on to make code S. code S ro16: MMA(1-2)vsPolt(2-1), Bomber(1-2)vsKeen(2-1), Zenio(1-2)vsTOP(2-1), Virus(1-2)vsGenius(2-1), Nestea(0-2)vsMVP(2-0), Huk(2-1)vsNada(1-2), Puzzle(0-2)vsRyung(2-0), Hongun(0-2)vsJuly(2-0) who's mediocre there? Bomber? Virus? MVP and TOP are facing off for the final, MMA and Polt have already proven themselves to be excellent players, Nada is most definitely not mediocre, Ryung has had consistent, fairly strong showings.... There is something that most of you are missing, it's that the korean scene was a huge terran / zerg scene back in SC1. I don't understand why nobody ever talk about that. The fact that, during SC1, the protoss race was the least developped race for a long time while terran (from boxer to nada... and flash) and zerg (july, savior, jaedong) all had their own bonjwa. Who's the protoss bonjwa ? Nal_rA ? Garimto ? Stork ? Old legends and well... stork who never had the dominance flash or jaedong had. There have been 4 golden mouse in SC2's history : 2 zerg and 2 terran. And the two other players who were the closest to had their golden mouse were iloveoov and boxer, two terran AGAIN. SC2 is a new game, but in korea, SC1 WAS EVERYTHING about esport, and SC2 came into that very scene : that's why there are least protoss and protoss is least developped (MC and sangho are the two only old SC1 pro gamer who switched to SC2's protoss, while marineking went terran). If you compare to europe, where protoss are HUGE. Look again : the most successful foreigner in code A & S is a protoss player (huk). Look now, yellow is switching, which race did he decided to play ? Obviously... zerg. Korea = zerg and terran heavy.
That's interesting theorycraft, but Zerg are by far the least represented race in Korea, both in pro teams, and on the ladder. It's also not like most of the dominant Terran or Zerg players were anything to write home about. MVP and SangHo are by far the most accomplished SC1 players out of the bunch, relative to when they switched.
Plus, it's not like there's a lack of Protoss players in the BW scene. The top30 of Kespa rankings is relatively balanced, with 8 Protoss, 10 Terrans and 12 Zerg. Plus, the OSL finals are going to be + Show Spoiler +PvT, with a good chance for JangBi to take it if he doesn't choke terribly
It's ridiculous to suggest that all the talent would choose Terran or Zerg in SC2, when the same doesn't even happen in BW.
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On September 10 2011 02:30 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:18 n0btozz wrote:
I don´t understand why people are talking about Protoss being a gimmicky race? It´s a race with super expensive units, that until higher in the tech route, are very cost-inefficient...Being able to 4 gate doesn´t make it a gimmicky race, and the fact we have 2 base 6/7 gate pushes, doesn´t make it gimmicky either.
If you can´t win because the race is simply underpowered, it´s pretty natural to go for some sort of cheese to even have a shot of winning.
This ain´t rocket science :/ Yes, you are correct. Super expensive units, very cost inefficient until very late tech is reached. They also are terribly weak in small groups, and the early game is horrible. This means protoss has to rely on other things. * Gimmicky things*. 2 base pushes, 4 gate, 100% unsafe builds against pressure to even have a slight chance to beat that 1-1-1 all in. With gimmicky, we mean that protoss needs to rely on things that terran/zerg can quickly figure out, and that protoss units are only reasonably ok with their upgrades. Stalkers are okay when they get blink and +2 and when you have superior micro. Marines are good units already, and with combat shields and stim they are very strong. With protoss upgrades, it doesn't feel like they add something. It feels like they make the unit only somewhat useful. Like we see now, these gimmicks have been figured out and protoss is being destroyed. Terran destroys protoss with the 1-1-1, even if they know it's coming and if they can prepare optimally. Zerg figured out they can outmacro protoss a lot and still be safe to any possible pressure or harass.
I just can´t agree with you, macroing with protoss is just fine, forcefields and colossi/HT make for pretty good defences.
What is not ok is playing against terran, zerg is hard right now, but terran is the problem. You can macro up vs zerg just fine and don´t need to rely on any sort of gimmicky play. This is reflected well in the forge fast expand being one of the most popular builds. You prepare either a timing attack or a longer macro game, just like the other 2 races.
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On September 10 2011 02:39 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:03 Erasme wrote:On September 09 2011 09:47 OlorinTheWise wrote:On September 09 2011 08:53 Erasme wrote:
5 rax reaper was nerfed because of 1v1, I'm tired of seeing people thinking that it wasn't an abusive strat. See MorroW vs Idra at IEM. I never said it wasn't an abusive strategy. However, the primary reason that the Reaper was nerfed was how imbalanced it was in 2v2, not 1v1. Oh sorry, I was diamond when 5rax reaper was in place. Where were you ? By the way abusive = imbalanced and yes you can say it was imbalanced since the counter of that strat (roach + speed) was nullified by expand + marauders from terran. At high level MorroW used it against superior player (Idra just when he was back from Korea). He also said in that interview that 5rax reapers against zerg is abusive. Does anyone remember ? 'Oh noes it was for 2v2, 1v1 tournament wasn't plagued with this strat !' Thank you mister protoss. I will repeat myself about the 'imbalance' in PvT. We cannot say now that there is an imbalance, we will be able to see it in months. I'm not sure if you understand the irony, but your "we cannot say there's an imbalance, let's wait a few months" was exactly what Terran players said back in the 5RR days. Similarly, inferior Terran players are beating superior Protosses with the 1/1/1, and MVP tweeted that Terrans who 1/1/1 should be disqualified. You, right now, are the same as the Terrans back then, who wanted to wait for Zerg to figure out a response to 5RR. Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:11 WhiteDog wrote:On September 09 2011 13:57 Active.815 wrote:On September 09 2011 04:32 Paladia wrote:On September 09 2011 04:06 Havefa1th wrote:
To blame one player's downfall on the "faults" of an entire race is a racey and unwarranted claim. To say that no Protoss is good at ZvP is as an absurd statement as saying that 1-1-1 will forever be unholdable. The 1-1-1 will be, in the end, just another cheese (like the 4 gate and the roach-ling all-ins before it) that is scoutable and held cost-efficiently with slight build order changes and superior micro.
The fact of the matter remains is that Protoss is not underpowered, there just is no overarching Protoss "president," so to speak. Jinro himself says that MC has stagnated due to lack of provocative and innovative play. To be honest, there isn't any Protoss player that's innovating the race... meanwhile there are Zerg players (mainly foreign ones) commanding the helm of the Infestor battleship and Korean Zergs at the front of faster, safer roach based play that has shown success against a variety of unit compositions. And there are the Terrans like Boxer and the rest of SlayerS, who made one small unit (and therefore the mech composition) more popular of late due to aggressive, cost-efficient play.
Where's the Protoss? You can argue for MC's storm drop play, but that's a technique that is shadowed in the end by standard, stagnated build orders and strategies. You can argue for White-Ra, who shoves the square Warp Prism into every round hole the PvX matchup has, but in the end, it's one unit that forces no special macro-related reaction from the other player.
The lack of success is not the fault of an "imbalanced" race or the 1-1-1, it's MC's (and the rest of the Protoss PLAYERS) fault. You can't blame the losses of one player on the race. You just can't.
However...
Easily the best written article I've read on this website (about Starcraft 2, that is). Keep this shit up. There is no reason why people who pick Terran would be better players. Yet there are 17 Terrans in Code S and 5 Protoss. The top10 of the Korean ladder has 9 Terrans. Even the half decent Terran players are doing very well. Terran has highest potential for offensive/aggressive play. Terran matchups practically require you to be harassing/doing offensive plays consistently. This also gives Terran the highest non-single engagement damage potential, barring mass mutas catching toss or terran with no turrets/cannons/storms and killing every probe, nexus, and pylon ever T___T. Protoss as a race never really had to play like zerg and terran with the multi-harass. High-level koreans have insane multitasking, and terran offers the greatest potential for their multitasking~when you want to be the best, you look for the race that gives you the best advantage. Also, you say 'half decent terrans doing well'. Code A ro16: Ganzi(2-0)vsFD, sc(0-2)vsTaeja(2-0),Yoda(2-1)vsTassadar(1-2), Maka(0-2)vsLeenock(2-0), JJakji(2-0)vsLucky(0-2), MKP(2-1)vsYugioh... The only not-superhighlevel Terrans that i would say are in that list are maka and yoda, who both get knocked out by leenock (yoda in the ro8). Jjakji, Ganzi, Taeja, MKP all go on to make code S. code S ro16: MMA(1-2)vsPolt(2-1), Bomber(1-2)vsKeen(2-1), Zenio(1-2)vsTOP(2-1), Virus(1-2)vsGenius(2-1), Nestea(0-2)vsMVP(2-0), Huk(2-1)vsNada(1-2), Puzzle(0-2)vsRyung(2-0), Hongun(0-2)vsJuly(2-0) who's mediocre there? Bomber? Virus? MVP and TOP are facing off for the final, MMA and Polt have already proven themselves to be excellent players, Nada is most definitely not mediocre, Ryung has had consistent, fairly strong showings.... There is something that most of you are missing, it's that the korean scene was a huge terran / zerg scene back in SC1. I don't understand why nobody ever talk about that. The fact that, during SC1, the protoss race was the least developped race for a long time while terran (from boxer to nada... and flash) and zerg (july, savior, jaedong) all had their own bonjwa. Who's the protoss bonjwa ? Nal_rA ? Garimto ? Stork ? Old legends and well... stork who never had the dominance flash or jaedong had. There have been 4 golden mouse in SC2's history : 2 zerg and 2 terran. And the two other players who were the closest to had their golden mouse were iloveoov and boxer, two terran AGAIN. SC2 is a new game, but in korea, SC1 WAS EVERYTHING about esport, and SC2 came into that very scene : that's why there are least protoss and protoss is least developped (MC and sangho are the two only old SC1 pro gamer who switched to SC2's protoss, while marineking went terran). If you compare to europe, where protoss are HUGE. Look again : the most successful foreigner in code A & S is a protoss player (huk). Look now, yellow is switching, which race did he decided to play ? Obviously... zerg. Korea = zerg and terran heavy. That's interesting theorycraft, but Zerg are by far the least represented race in Korea, both in pro teams, and on the ladder. It's also not like most of the dominant Terran or Zerg players were anything to write home about. MVP and SangHo are by far the most accomplished SC1 players out of the bunch, relative to when they switched. Plus, it's not like there's a lack of Protoss players in the BW scene. The top30 of Kespa rankings is relatively balanced, with 8 Protoss, 10 Terrans and 12 Zerg. Plus, the OSL finals are going to be + Show Spoiler +PvT, with a good chance for JangBi to take it if he doesn't choke terribly . It's ridiculous to suggest that all the talent would choose Terran or Zerg in SC2, when the same doesn't even happen in BW.
Maybe I'm wrong, as you said it's theorycraft. But Bisu and stork never had the impact boxer, jaedong or flash had on the scene. Are you sure that there are the same number of protoss zerg and terran competing for the GSL prelim ?
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Excellent article - highlights the major problems with PvT extremely well. Even the generous changes being made to Protoss in 1.4 might not be enough to bring Protoss up to the cost-efficiency of the other races.
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On September 10 2011 02:25 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:23 Olinim wrote:On September 10 2011 02:11 WhiteDog wrote:On September 09 2011 13:57 Active.815 wrote:On September 09 2011 04:32 Paladia wrote:On September 09 2011 04:06 Havefa1th wrote:
To blame one player's downfall on the "faults" of an entire race is a racey and unwarranted claim. To say that no Protoss is good at ZvP is as an absurd statement as saying that 1-1-1 will forever be unholdable. The 1-1-1 will be, in the end, just another cheese (like the 4 gate and the roach-ling all-ins before it) that is scoutable and held cost-efficiently with slight build order changes and superior micro.
The fact of the matter remains is that Protoss is not underpowered, there just is no overarching Protoss "president," so to speak. Jinro himself says that MC has stagnated due to lack of provocative and innovative play. To be honest, there isn't any Protoss player that's innovating the race... meanwhile there are Zerg players (mainly foreign ones) commanding the helm of the Infestor battleship and Korean Zergs at the front of faster, safer roach based play that has shown success against a variety of unit compositions. And there are the Terrans like Boxer and the rest of SlayerS, who made one small unit (and therefore the mech composition) more popular of late due to aggressive, cost-efficient play.
Where's the Protoss? You can argue for MC's storm drop play, but that's a technique that is shadowed in the end by standard, stagnated build orders and strategies. You can argue for White-Ra, who shoves the square Warp Prism into every round hole the PvX matchup has, but in the end, it's one unit that forces no special macro-related reaction from the other player.
The lack of success is not the fault of an "imbalanced" race or the 1-1-1, it's MC's (and the rest of the Protoss PLAYERS) fault. You can't blame the losses of one player on the race. You just can't.
However...
Easily the best written article I've read on this website (about Starcraft 2, that is). Keep this shit up. There is no reason why people who pick Terran would be better players. Yet there are 17 Terrans in Code S and 5 Protoss. The top10 of the Korean ladder has 9 Terrans. Even the half decent Terran players are doing very well. Terran has highest potential for offensive/aggressive play. Terran matchups practically require you to be harassing/doing offensive plays consistently. This also gives Terran the highest non-single engagement damage potential, barring mass mutas catching toss or terran with no turrets/cannons/storms and killing every probe, nexus, and pylon ever T___T. Protoss as a race never really had to play like zerg and terran with the multi-harass. High-level koreans have insane multitasking, and terran offers the greatest potential for their multitasking~when you want to be the best, you look for the race that gives you the best advantage. Also, you say 'half decent terrans doing well'. Code A ro16: Ganzi(2-0)vsFD, sc(0-2)vsTaeja(2-0),Yoda(2-1)vsTassadar(1-2), Maka(0-2)vsLeenock(2-0), JJakji(2-0)vsLucky(0-2), MKP(2-1)vsYugioh... The only not-superhighlevel Terrans that i would say are in that list are maka and yoda, who both get knocked out by leenock (yoda in the ro8). Jjakji, Ganzi, Taeja, MKP all go on to make code S. code S ro16: MMA(1-2)vsPolt(2-1), Bomber(1-2)vsKeen(2-1), Zenio(1-2)vsTOP(2-1), Virus(1-2)vsGenius(2-1), Nestea(0-2)vsMVP(2-0), Huk(2-1)vsNada(1-2), Puzzle(0-2)vsRyung(2-0), Hongun(0-2)vsJuly(2-0) who's mediocre there? Bomber? Virus? MVP and TOP are facing off for the final, MMA and Polt have already proven themselves to be excellent players, Nada is most definitely not mediocre, Ryung has had consistent, fairly strong showings.... There is something that most of you are missing, it's that the korean scene was a huge terran / zerg scene back in SC1. I don't understand why nobody ever talk about that. The fact that, during SC1, the protoss race was the least developped race for a long time while terran (from boxer to nada... and flash) and zerg (july, savior, jaedong) all had their own bonjwa. Who's the protoss bonjwa ? Nal_rA ? Garimto ? Stork ? Old legends and well... stork who never had the dominance flash or jaedong had. SC2 is a new game, but in korea, SC1 WAS EVERYTHING about esport, and SC2 came into that very scene : that's why there are least protoss and protoss is least developped (MC and sangho are the two only old SC1 pro gamer who switched to SC2's protoss, while marineking went terran). If you compare to europe, where protoss are HUGE. Look again : the most successful foreigner in code A & S is a protoss player (huk). Look now, yellow is switching, which race did he decided to play ? Obviously... zerg. Korea = zerg and terran heavy. It's not like there are just a few more dominant terrans and zergs. Protoss isn't even competitive in Code S. They are a joke, and the winrates are pitiful. Simply saying that there were more terran in sc1 so of course there are no good protoss players...it's absolute shit. The winrates and race representation at the highest level don't lie, and it's too extreme to be a coincidence. Protoss is too weak or limited at the highest level. No I'm saying the overall pool of high level protoss player in korea should be weaker for historic and cultural reasons.
The good ole "everyone who plays this race/class/character/gun/unit/item is just so much better than everyone else" excuse.
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On September 10 2011 02:46 Ownos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:25 WhiteDog wrote:On September 10 2011 02:23 Olinim wrote:On September 10 2011 02:11 WhiteDog wrote:On September 09 2011 13:57 Active.815 wrote:On September 09 2011 04:32 Paladia wrote:On September 09 2011 04:06 Havefa1th wrote:
To blame one player's downfall on the "faults" of an entire race is a racey and unwarranted claim. To say that no Protoss is good at ZvP is as an absurd statement as saying that 1-1-1 will forever be unholdable. The 1-1-1 will be, in the end, just another cheese (like the 4 gate and the roach-ling all-ins before it) that is scoutable and held cost-efficiently with slight build order changes and superior micro.
The fact of the matter remains is that Protoss is not underpowered, there just is no overarching Protoss "president," so to speak. Jinro himself says that MC has stagnated due to lack of provocative and innovative play. To be honest, there isn't any Protoss player that's innovating the race... meanwhile there are Zerg players (mainly foreign ones) commanding the helm of the Infestor battleship and Korean Zergs at the front of faster, safer roach based play that has shown success against a variety of unit compositions. And there are the Terrans like Boxer and the rest of SlayerS, who made one small unit (and therefore the mech composition) more popular of late due to aggressive, cost-efficient play.
Where's the Protoss? You can argue for MC's storm drop play, but that's a technique that is shadowed in the end by standard, stagnated build orders and strategies. You can argue for White-Ra, who shoves the square Warp Prism into every round hole the PvX matchup has, but in the end, it's one unit that forces no special macro-related reaction from the other player.
The lack of success is not the fault of an "imbalanced" race or the 1-1-1, it's MC's (and the rest of the Protoss PLAYERS) fault. You can't blame the losses of one player on the race. You just can't.
However...
Easily the best written article I've read on this website (about Starcraft 2, that is). Keep this shit up. There is no reason why people who pick Terran would be better players. Yet there are 17 Terrans in Code S and 5 Protoss. The top10 of the Korean ladder has 9 Terrans. Even the half decent Terran players are doing very well. Terran has highest potential for offensive/aggressive play. Terran matchups practically require you to be harassing/doing offensive plays consistently. This also gives Terran the highest non-single engagement damage potential, barring mass mutas catching toss or terran with no turrets/cannons/storms and killing every probe, nexus, and pylon ever T___T. Protoss as a race never really had to play like zerg and terran with the multi-harass. High-level koreans have insane multitasking, and terran offers the greatest potential for their multitasking~when you want to be the best, you look for the race that gives you the best advantage. Also, you say 'half decent terrans doing well'. Code A ro16: Ganzi(2-0)vsFD, sc(0-2)vsTaeja(2-0),Yoda(2-1)vsTassadar(1-2), Maka(0-2)vsLeenock(2-0), JJakji(2-0)vsLucky(0-2), MKP(2-1)vsYugioh... The only not-superhighlevel Terrans that i would say are in that list are maka and yoda, who both get knocked out by leenock (yoda in the ro8). Jjakji, Ganzi, Taeja, MKP all go on to make code S. code S ro16: MMA(1-2)vsPolt(2-1), Bomber(1-2)vsKeen(2-1), Zenio(1-2)vsTOP(2-1), Virus(1-2)vsGenius(2-1), Nestea(0-2)vsMVP(2-0), Huk(2-1)vsNada(1-2), Puzzle(0-2)vsRyung(2-0), Hongun(0-2)vsJuly(2-0) who's mediocre there? Bomber? Virus? MVP and TOP are facing off for the final, MMA and Polt have already proven themselves to be excellent players, Nada is most definitely not mediocre, Ryung has had consistent, fairly strong showings.... There is something that most of you are missing, it's that the korean scene was a huge terran / zerg scene back in SC1. I don't understand why nobody ever talk about that. The fact that, during SC1, the protoss race was the least developped race for a long time while terran (from boxer to nada... and flash) and zerg (july, savior, jaedong) all had their own bonjwa. Who's the protoss bonjwa ? Nal_rA ? Garimto ? Stork ? Old legends and well... stork who never had the dominance flash or jaedong had. SC2 is a new game, but in korea, SC1 WAS EVERYTHING about esport, and SC2 came into that very scene : that's why there are least protoss and protoss is least developped (MC and sangho are the two only old SC1 pro gamer who switched to SC2's protoss, while marineking went terran). If you compare to europe, where protoss are HUGE. Look again : the most successful foreigner in code A & S is a protoss player (huk). Look now, yellow is switching, which race did he decided to play ? Obviously... zerg. Korea = zerg and terran heavy. It's not like there are just a few more dominant terrans and zergs. Protoss isn't even competitive in Code S. They are a joke, and the winrates are pitiful. Simply saying that there were more terran in sc1 so of course there are no good protoss players...it's absolute shit. The winrates and race representation at the highest level don't lie, and it's too extreme to be a coincidence. Protoss is too weak or limited at the highest level. No I'm saying the overall pool of high level protoss player in korea should be weaker for historic and cultural reasons. The good ole "everyone who plays this race/class/character/gun/unit/item is just so much better than everyone else" excuse.
Well, don't you agree that foreigner protoss are doing way better in the foreign scene ? Most of the best foreigner players are protoss... how do you explain that ? Yeah... the best european took protoss... they must be that good to overcome imbalance.
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On September 10 2011 02:41 n0btozz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:30 H0i wrote:On September 10 2011 02:18 n0btozz wrote:
I don´t understand why people are talking about Protoss being a gimmicky race? It´s a race with super expensive units, that until higher in the tech route, are very cost-inefficient...Being able to 4 gate doesn´t make it a gimmicky race, and the fact we have 2 base 6/7 gate pushes, doesn´t make it gimmicky either.
If you can´t win because the race is simply underpowered, it´s pretty natural to go for some sort of cheese to even have a shot of winning.
This ain´t rocket science :/ Yes, you are correct. Super expensive units, very cost inefficient until very late tech is reached. They also are terribly weak in small groups, and the early game is horrible. This means protoss has to rely on other things. * Gimmicky things*. 2 base pushes, 4 gate, 100% unsafe builds against pressure to even have a slight chance to beat that 1-1-1 all in. With gimmicky, we mean that protoss needs to rely on things that terran/zerg can quickly figure out, and that protoss units are only reasonably ok with their upgrades. Stalkers are okay when they get blink and +2 and when you have superior micro. Marines are good units already, and with combat shields and stim they are very strong. With protoss upgrades, it doesn't feel like they add something. It feels like they make the unit only somewhat useful. Like we see now, these gimmicks have been figured out and protoss is being destroyed. Terran destroys protoss with the 1-1-1, even if they know it's coming and if they can prepare optimally. Zerg figured out they can outmacro protoss a lot and still be safe to any possible pressure or harass. I just can´t agree with you, macroing with protoss is just fine, forcefields and colossi/HT make for pretty good defences. What is not ok is playing against terran, zerg is hard right now, but terran is the problem. You can macro up vs zerg just fine and don´t need to rely on any sort of gimmicky play. This is reflected well in the forge fast expand being one of the most popular builds. You prepare either a timing attack or a longer macro game, just like the other 2 races.
"Macroing with protoss is fine"
Not in PvZ. It's more about zerg than protoss though.
It's not about defenses. It's about zergs crazy ability to out macro a lot and still hold off attacks with ease.
If you play PvZ, you can do two things. Expand or do a 1base attack. 1 base is out of the question, it never works, 4 gate was figured out before the gate timing was slowed down with 40 seconds.
So you expand. There's 2 options again:
- FFE
- A slower expansion like 3gate
FFE will allow zerg to take a third before their 2nd finishes. Usually protosses go DT or stargate after this to stay even, but these have been figured out and it results in the match entering the midgame with 40 probes vs 80 drones. FFE is a terrible build.
So there's the slower expo. This also allows zerg to take a third, but just a bit slower. They can take a forth relatively quickly, and it's nearly impossible for protoss to get a third up.
The result? 2 base timing attacks from protoss. Which again, have been figured out. PvZ is at around 30% in korea, if not less. Conclusion: zerg can outmacro protoss while being safe from timing attacks and/or rush and harass in any situation.
Don't believe me? Watch PvZ from gsl, and watch a lot of it. You'll come to the same conclusion.
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My point of view is that the good protoss gameplans were found out earlier in the history of the game than the good terran and zerg gameplans because they were more readily apparent. As a result, the protoss race was punished for it with a series of nerfs to just about every unit, some justified in the long run, some not at all. When the other races caught up in terms of strategy, protoss was left behind.
Compare void ray and banshee behavior against marines, as an example. A banshee has the same range as a marine, but it's faster, allowing it to do some form of kiting against marines which we often see pros do. Its damage comes in bursts, which makes that kiting useful. Terran basically has to wait for a viking or stim to be able to catch the banshee. A void ray also has the same range as a marine, but it has the same speed and its uncharged attack doesn't do a lot of damage. It becomes impossible to do anything as a void ray against a small group of marines... Due to the range nerf in beta meant specifically to prevent this. Void rays by themselves are as a result terrible in PvT. Protoss discovered this technique back in the beta and it was apparently an issue then, so this led to a nerf. Terran discovered the equivalent technique much later, and by that time it wasn't an issue anymore.
Meanwhile, terran just found out that the hellion, its second mineral dump, is really good at killing workers. Yeah...
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On September 10 2011 02:48 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:46 Ownos wrote:On September 10 2011 02:25 WhiteDog wrote:On September 10 2011 02:23 Olinim wrote:On September 10 2011 02:11 WhiteDog wrote:On September 09 2011 13:57 Active.815 wrote:On September 09 2011 04:32 Paladia wrote:On September 09 2011 04:06 Havefa1th wrote:
To blame one player's downfall on the "faults" of an entire race is a racey and unwarranted claim. To say that no Protoss is good at ZvP is as an absurd statement as saying that 1-1-1 will forever be unholdable. The 1-1-1 will be, in the end, just another cheese (like the 4 gate and the roach-ling all-ins before it) that is scoutable and held cost-efficiently with slight build order changes and superior micro.
The fact of the matter remains is that Protoss is not underpowered, there just is no overarching Protoss "president," so to speak. Jinro himself says that MC has stagnated due to lack of provocative and innovative play. To be honest, there isn't any Protoss player that's innovating the race... meanwhile there are Zerg players (mainly foreign ones) commanding the helm of the Infestor battleship and Korean Zergs at the front of faster, safer roach based play that has shown success against a variety of unit compositions. And there are the Terrans like Boxer and the rest of SlayerS, who made one small unit (and therefore the mech composition) more popular of late due to aggressive, cost-efficient play.
Where's the Protoss? You can argue for MC's storm drop play, but that's a technique that is shadowed in the end by standard, stagnated build orders and strategies. You can argue for White-Ra, who shoves the square Warp Prism into every round hole the PvX matchup has, but in the end, it's one unit that forces no special macro-related reaction from the other player.
The lack of success is not the fault of an "imbalanced" race or the 1-1-1, it's MC's (and the rest of the Protoss PLAYERS) fault. You can't blame the losses of one player on the race. You just can't.
However...
Easily the best written article I've read on this website (about Starcraft 2, that is). Keep this shit up. There is no reason why people who pick Terran would be better players. Yet there are 17 Terrans in Code S and 5 Protoss. The top10 of the Korean ladder has 9 Terrans. Even the half decent Terran players are doing very well. Terran has highest potential for offensive/aggressive play. Terran matchups practically require you to be harassing/doing offensive plays consistently. This also gives Terran the highest non-single engagement damage potential, barring mass mutas catching toss or terran with no turrets/cannons/storms and killing every probe, nexus, and pylon ever T___T. Protoss as a race never really had to play like zerg and terran with the multi-harass. High-level koreans have insane multitasking, and terran offers the greatest potential for their multitasking~when you want to be the best, you look for the race that gives you the best advantage. Also, you say 'half decent terrans doing well'. Code A ro16: Ganzi(2-0)vsFD, sc(0-2)vsTaeja(2-0),Yoda(2-1)vsTassadar(1-2), Maka(0-2)vsLeenock(2-0), JJakji(2-0)vsLucky(0-2), MKP(2-1)vsYugioh... The only not-superhighlevel Terrans that i would say are in that list are maka and yoda, who both get knocked out by leenock (yoda in the ro8). Jjakji, Ganzi, Taeja, MKP all go on to make code S. code S ro16: MMA(1-2)vsPolt(2-1), Bomber(1-2)vsKeen(2-1), Zenio(1-2)vsTOP(2-1), Virus(1-2)vsGenius(2-1), Nestea(0-2)vsMVP(2-0), Huk(2-1)vsNada(1-2), Puzzle(0-2)vsRyung(2-0), Hongun(0-2)vsJuly(2-0) who's mediocre there? Bomber? Virus? MVP and TOP are facing off for the final, MMA and Polt have already proven themselves to be excellent players, Nada is most definitely not mediocre, Ryung has had consistent, fairly strong showings.... There is something that most of you are missing, it's that the korean scene was a huge terran / zerg scene back in SC1. I don't understand why nobody ever talk about that. The fact that, during SC1, the protoss race was the least developped race for a long time while terran (from boxer to nada... and flash) and zerg (july, savior, jaedong) all had their own bonjwa. Who's the protoss bonjwa ? Nal_rA ? Garimto ? Stork ? Old legends and well... stork who never had the dominance flash or jaedong had. SC2 is a new game, but in korea, SC1 WAS EVERYTHING about esport, and SC2 came into that very scene : that's why there are least protoss and protoss is least developped (MC and sangho are the two only old SC1 pro gamer who switched to SC2's protoss, while marineking went terran). If you compare to europe, where protoss are HUGE. Look again : the most successful foreigner in code A & S is a protoss player (huk). Look now, yellow is switching, which race did he decided to play ? Obviously... zerg. Korea = zerg and terran heavy. It's not like there are just a few more dominant terrans and zergs. Protoss isn't even competitive in Code S. They are a joke, and the winrates are pitiful. Simply saying that there were more terran in sc1 so of course there are no good protoss players...it's absolute shit. The winrates and race representation at the highest level don't lie, and it's too extreme to be a coincidence. Protoss is too weak or limited at the highest level. No I'm saying the overall pool of high level protoss player in korea should be weaker for historic and cultural reasons. The good ole "everyone who plays this race/class/character/gun/unit/item is just so much better than everyone else" excuse. Well, don't you agree that foreigner protoss are doing way better in the foreign scene ? Most of the best foreigner players are protoss... how do you explain that ? Yeah... the best european took protoss... they must be that good to overcome imbalance.
We're talking about the highest of the highest level here. The korean scene. Terran and zerg are totally dominating protoss there.
The foreigner scene is rapidly catching up. 1 month ago many foreigners couldn't even properly execute a 1-1-1, but today they're a lot better at that.
If we look at history, the foreigner scene is nearly always 1-4 months behind the korean scene.
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On September 10 2011 02:39 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:03 Erasme wrote:On September 09 2011 09:47 OlorinTheWise wrote:On September 09 2011 08:53 Erasme wrote:
5 rax reaper was nerfed because of 1v1, I'm tired of seeing people thinking that it wasn't an abusive strat. See MorroW vs Idra at IEM. I never said it wasn't an abusive strategy. However, the primary reason that the Reaper was nerfed was how imbalanced it was in 2v2, not 1v1. Oh sorry, I was diamond when 5rax reaper was in place. Where were you ? By the way abusive = imbalanced and yes you can say it was imbalanced since the counter of that strat (roach + speed) was nullified by expand + marauders from terran. At high level MorroW used it against superior player (Idra just when he was back from Korea). He also said in that interview that 5rax reapers against zerg is abusive. Does anyone remember ? 'Oh noes it was for 2v2, 1v1 tournament wasn't plagued with this strat !' Thank you mister protoss. I will repeat myself about the 'imbalance' in PvT. We cannot say now that there is an imbalance, we will be able to see it in months. I'm not sure if you understand the irony, but your "we cannot say there's an imbalance, let's wait a few months" was exactly what Terran players said back in the 5RR days. Similarly, inferior Terran players are beating superior Protosses with the 1/1/1, and MVP tweeted that Terrans who 1/1/1 should be disqualified. You, right now, are the same as the Terrans back then, who wanted to wait for Zerg to figure out a response to 5RR. Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:11 WhiteDog wrote:On September 09 2011 13:57 Active.815 wrote:On September 09 2011 04:32 Paladia wrote:On September 09 2011 04:06 Havefa1th wrote:
To blame one player's downfall on the "faults" of an entire race is a racey and unwarranted claim. To say that no Protoss is good at ZvP is as an absurd statement as saying that 1-1-1 will forever be unholdable. The 1-1-1 will be, in the end, just another cheese (like the 4 gate and the roach-ling all-ins before it) that is scoutable and held cost-efficiently with slight build order changes and superior micro.
The fact of the matter remains is that Protoss is not underpowered, there just is no overarching Protoss "president," so to speak. Jinro himself says that MC has stagnated due to lack of provocative and innovative play. To be honest, there isn't any Protoss player that's innovating the race... meanwhile there are Zerg players (mainly foreign ones) commanding the helm of the Infestor battleship and Korean Zergs at the front of faster, safer roach based play that has shown success against a variety of unit compositions. And there are the Terrans like Boxer and the rest of SlayerS, who made one small unit (and therefore the mech composition) more popular of late due to aggressive, cost-efficient play.
Where's the Protoss? You can argue for MC's storm drop play, but that's a technique that is shadowed in the end by standard, stagnated build orders and strategies. You can argue for White-Ra, who shoves the square Warp Prism into every round hole the PvX matchup has, but in the end, it's one unit that forces no special macro-related reaction from the other player.
The lack of success is not the fault of an "imbalanced" race or the 1-1-1, it's MC's (and the rest of the Protoss PLAYERS) fault. You can't blame the losses of one player on the race. You just can't.
However...
Easily the best written article I've read on this website (about Starcraft 2, that is). Keep this shit up. There is no reason why people who pick Terran would be better players. Yet there are 17 Terrans in Code S and 5 Protoss. The top10 of the Korean ladder has 9 Terrans. Even the half decent Terran players are doing very well. Terran has highest potential for offensive/aggressive play. Terran matchups practically require you to be harassing/doing offensive plays consistently. This also gives Terran the highest non-single engagement damage potential, barring mass mutas catching toss or terran with no turrets/cannons/storms and killing every probe, nexus, and pylon ever T___T. Protoss as a race never really had to play like zerg and terran with the multi-harass. High-level koreans have insane multitasking, and terran offers the greatest potential for their multitasking~when you want to be the best, you look for the race that gives you the best advantage. Also, you say 'half decent terrans doing well'. Code A ro16: Ganzi(2-0)vsFD, sc(0-2)vsTaeja(2-0),Yoda(2-1)vsTassadar(1-2), Maka(0-2)vsLeenock(2-0), JJakji(2-0)vsLucky(0-2), MKP(2-1)vsYugioh... The only not-superhighlevel Terrans that i would say are in that list are maka and yoda, who both get knocked out by leenock (yoda in the ro8). Jjakji, Ganzi, Taeja, MKP all go on to make code S. code S ro16: MMA(1-2)vsPolt(2-1), Bomber(1-2)vsKeen(2-1), Zenio(1-2)vsTOP(2-1), Virus(1-2)vsGenius(2-1), Nestea(0-2)vsMVP(2-0), Huk(2-1)vsNada(1-2), Puzzle(0-2)vsRyung(2-0), Hongun(0-2)vsJuly(2-0) who's mediocre there? Bomber? Virus? MVP and TOP are facing off for the final, MMA and Polt have already proven themselves to be excellent players, Nada is most definitely not mediocre, Ryung has had consistent, fairly strong showings.... There is something that most of you are missing, it's that the korean scene was a huge terran / zerg scene back in SC1. I don't understand why nobody ever talk about that. The fact that, during SC1, the protoss race was the least developped race for a long time while terran (from boxer to nada... and flash) and zerg (july, savior, jaedong) all had their own bonjwa. Who's the protoss bonjwa ? Nal_rA ? Garimto ? Stork ? Old legends and well... stork who never had the dominance flash or jaedong had. There have been 4 golden mouse in SC2's history : 2 zerg and 2 terran. And the two other players who were the closest to had their golden mouse were iloveoov and boxer, two terran AGAIN. SC2 is a new game, but in korea, SC1 WAS EVERYTHING about esport, and SC2 came into that very scene : that's why there are least protoss and protoss is least developped (MC and sangho are the two only old SC1 pro gamer who switched to SC2's protoss, while marineking went terran). If you compare to europe, where protoss are HUGE. Look again : the most successful foreigner in code A & S is a protoss player (huk). Look now, yellow is switching, which race did he decided to play ? Obviously... zerg. Korea = zerg and terran heavy. That's interesting theorycraft, but Zerg are by far the least represented race in Korea, both in pro teams, and on the ladder. It's also not like most of the dominant Terran or Zerg players were anything to write home about. MVP and SangHo are by far the most accomplished SC1 players out of the bunch, relative to when they switched. Plus, it's not like there's a lack of Protoss players in the BW scene. The top30 of Kespa rankings is relatively balanced, with 8 Protoss, 10 Terrans and 12 Zerg. Plus, the OSL finals are going to be + Show Spoiler +PvT, with a good chance for JangBi to take it if he doesn't choke terribly . It's ridiculous to suggest that all the talent would choose Terran or Zerg in SC2, when the same doesn't even happen in BW.
Just checked out and you're right, it seems that for GSL 2011 Octobre and August prelim there were more protoss than zerg an terran.
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On September 10 2011 02:48 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:46 Ownos wrote:On September 10 2011 02:25 WhiteDog wrote:On September 10 2011 02:23 Olinim wrote:On September 10 2011 02:11 WhiteDog wrote:On September 09 2011 13:57 Active.815 wrote:On September 09 2011 04:32 Paladia wrote:On September 09 2011 04:06 Havefa1th wrote:
To blame one player's downfall on the "faults" of an entire race is a racey and unwarranted claim. To say that no Protoss is good at ZvP is as an absurd statement as saying that 1-1-1 will forever be unholdable. The 1-1-1 will be, in the end, just another cheese (like the 4 gate and the roach-ling all-ins before it) that is scoutable and held cost-efficiently with slight build order changes and superior micro.
The fact of the matter remains is that Protoss is not underpowered, there just is no overarching Protoss "president," so to speak. Jinro himself says that MC has stagnated due to lack of provocative and innovative play. To be honest, there isn't any Protoss player that's innovating the race... meanwhile there are Zerg players (mainly foreign ones) commanding the helm of the Infestor battleship and Korean Zergs at the front of faster, safer roach based play that has shown success against a variety of unit compositions. And there are the Terrans like Boxer and the rest of SlayerS, who made one small unit (and therefore the mech composition) more popular of late due to aggressive, cost-efficient play.
Where's the Protoss? You can argue for MC's storm drop play, but that's a technique that is shadowed in the end by standard, stagnated build orders and strategies. You can argue for White-Ra, who shoves the square Warp Prism into every round hole the PvX matchup has, but in the end, it's one unit that forces no special macro-related reaction from the other player.
The lack of success is not the fault of an "imbalanced" race or the 1-1-1, it's MC's (and the rest of the Protoss PLAYERS) fault. You can't blame the losses of one player on the race. You just can't.
However...
Easily the best written article I've read on this website (about Starcraft 2, that is). Keep this shit up. There is no reason why people who pick Terran would be better players. Yet there are 17 Terrans in Code S and 5 Protoss. The top10 of the Korean ladder has 9 Terrans. Even the half decent Terran players are doing very well. Terran has highest potential for offensive/aggressive play. Terran matchups practically require you to be harassing/doing offensive plays consistently. This also gives Terran the highest non-single engagement damage potential, barring mass mutas catching toss or terran with no turrets/cannons/storms and killing every probe, nexus, and pylon ever T___T. Protoss as a race never really had to play like zerg and terran with the multi-harass. High-level koreans have insane multitasking, and terran offers the greatest potential for their multitasking~when you want to be the best, you look for the race that gives you the best advantage. Also, you say 'half decent terrans doing well'. Code A ro16: Ganzi(2-0)vsFD, sc(0-2)vsTaeja(2-0),Yoda(2-1)vsTassadar(1-2), Maka(0-2)vsLeenock(2-0), JJakji(2-0)vsLucky(0-2), MKP(2-1)vsYugioh... The only not-superhighlevel Terrans that i would say are in that list are maka and yoda, who both get knocked out by leenock (yoda in the ro8). Jjakji, Ganzi, Taeja, MKP all go on to make code S. code S ro16: MMA(1-2)vsPolt(2-1), Bomber(1-2)vsKeen(2-1), Zenio(1-2)vsTOP(2-1), Virus(1-2)vsGenius(2-1), Nestea(0-2)vsMVP(2-0), Huk(2-1)vsNada(1-2), Puzzle(0-2)vsRyung(2-0), Hongun(0-2)vsJuly(2-0) who's mediocre there? Bomber? Virus? MVP and TOP are facing off for the final, MMA and Polt have already proven themselves to be excellent players, Nada is most definitely not mediocre, Ryung has had consistent, fairly strong showings.... There is something that most of you are missing, it's that the korean scene was a huge terran / zerg scene back in SC1. I don't understand why nobody ever talk about that. The fact that, during SC1, the protoss race was the least developped race for a long time while terran (from boxer to nada... and flash) and zerg (july, savior, jaedong) all had their own bonjwa. Who's the protoss bonjwa ? Nal_rA ? Garimto ? Stork ? Old legends and well... stork who never had the dominance flash or jaedong had. SC2 is a new game, but in korea, SC1 WAS EVERYTHING about esport, and SC2 came into that very scene : that's why there are least protoss and protoss is least developped (MC and sangho are the two only old SC1 pro gamer who switched to SC2's protoss, while marineking went terran). If you compare to europe, where protoss are HUGE. Look again : the most successful foreigner in code A & S is a protoss player (huk). Look now, yellow is switching, which race did he decided to play ? Obviously... zerg. Korea = zerg and terran heavy. It's not like there are just a few more dominant terrans and zergs. Protoss isn't even competitive in Code S. They are a joke, and the winrates are pitiful. Simply saying that there were more terran in sc1 so of course there are no good protoss players...it's absolute shit. The winrates and race representation at the highest level don't lie, and it's too extreme to be a coincidence. Protoss is too weak or limited at the highest level. No I'm saying the overall pool of high level protoss player in korea should be weaker for historic and cultural reasons. The good ole "everyone who plays this race/class/character/gun/unit/item is just so much better than everyone else" excuse. Well, don't you agree that foreigner protoss are doing way better in the foreign scene ? Most of the best foreigner players are protoss... how do you explain that ? Yeah... the best european took protoss... they must be that good to overcome imbalance.
Not really the same level of competition. And the foreign scene has it's fair share of top zergs and terrans. it's not so horribly lopsided like in Korea. But I can see that maybe many Koreans saw terran and saw it as the race that they can bring out their full potential. It's a race that highly rewards multi-tasking. Just like zerg highly rewards macro play and drew those players. Maybe protoss just has a "low skill ceiling" as much as I'd hate to use that term.
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On September 10 2011 02:44 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:39 Toadvine wrote:On September 10 2011 01:03 Erasme wrote:On September 09 2011 09:47 OlorinTheWise wrote:On September 09 2011 08:53 Erasme wrote:
5 rax reaper was nerfed because of 1v1, I'm tired of seeing people thinking that it wasn't an abusive strat. See MorroW vs Idra at IEM. I never said it wasn't an abusive strategy. However, the primary reason that the Reaper was nerfed was how imbalanced it was in 2v2, not 1v1. Oh sorry, I was diamond when 5rax reaper was in place. Where were you ? By the way abusive = imbalanced and yes you can say it was imbalanced since the counter of that strat (roach + speed) was nullified by expand + marauders from terran. At high level MorroW used it against superior player (Idra just when he was back from Korea). He also said in that interview that 5rax reapers against zerg is abusive. Does anyone remember ? 'Oh noes it was for 2v2, 1v1 tournament wasn't plagued with this strat !' Thank you mister protoss. I will repeat myself about the 'imbalance' in PvT. We cannot say now that there is an imbalance, we will be able to see it in months. I'm not sure if you understand the irony, but your "we cannot say there's an imbalance, let's wait a few months" was exactly what Terran players said back in the 5RR days. Similarly, inferior Terran players are beating superior Protosses with the 1/1/1, and MVP tweeted that Terrans who 1/1/1 should be disqualified. You, right now, are the same as the Terrans back then, who wanted to wait for Zerg to figure out a response to 5RR. On September 10 2011 02:11 WhiteDog wrote:On September 09 2011 13:57 Active.815 wrote:On September 09 2011 04:32 Paladia wrote:On September 09 2011 04:06 Havefa1th wrote:
To blame one player's downfall on the "faults" of an entire race is a racey and unwarranted claim. To say that no Protoss is good at ZvP is as an absurd statement as saying that 1-1-1 will forever be unholdable. The 1-1-1 will be, in the end, just another cheese (like the 4 gate and the roach-ling all-ins before it) that is scoutable and held cost-efficiently with slight build order changes and superior micro.
The fact of the matter remains is that Protoss is not underpowered, there just is no overarching Protoss "president," so to speak. Jinro himself says that MC has stagnated due to lack of provocative and innovative play. To be honest, there isn't any Protoss player that's innovating the race... meanwhile there are Zerg players (mainly foreign ones) commanding the helm of the Infestor battleship and Korean Zergs at the front of faster, safer roach based play that has shown success against a variety of unit compositions. And there are the Terrans like Boxer and the rest of SlayerS, who made one small unit (and therefore the mech composition) more popular of late due to aggressive, cost-efficient play.
Where's the Protoss? You can argue for MC's storm drop play, but that's a technique that is shadowed in the end by standard, stagnated build orders and strategies. You can argue for White-Ra, who shoves the square Warp Prism into every round hole the PvX matchup has, but in the end, it's one unit that forces no special macro-related reaction from the other player.
The lack of success is not the fault of an "imbalanced" race or the 1-1-1, it's MC's (and the rest of the Protoss PLAYERS) fault. You can't blame the losses of one player on the race. You just can't.
However...
Easily the best written article I've read on this website (about Starcraft 2, that is). Keep this shit up. There is no reason why people who pick Terran would be better players. Yet there are 17 Terrans in Code S and 5 Protoss. The top10 of the Korean ladder has 9 Terrans. Even the half decent Terran players are doing very well. Terran has highest potential for offensive/aggressive play. Terran matchups practically require you to be harassing/doing offensive plays consistently. This also gives Terran the highest non-single engagement damage potential, barring mass mutas catching toss or terran with no turrets/cannons/storms and killing every probe, nexus, and pylon ever T___T. Protoss as a race never really had to play like zerg and terran with the multi-harass. High-level koreans have insane multitasking, and terran offers the greatest potential for their multitasking~when you want to be the best, you look for the race that gives you the best advantage. Also, you say 'half decent terrans doing well'. Code A ro16: Ganzi(2-0)vsFD, sc(0-2)vsTaeja(2-0),Yoda(2-1)vsTassadar(1-2), Maka(0-2)vsLeenock(2-0), JJakji(2-0)vsLucky(0-2), MKP(2-1)vsYugioh... The only not-superhighlevel Terrans that i would say are in that list are maka and yoda, who both get knocked out by leenock (yoda in the ro8). Jjakji, Ganzi, Taeja, MKP all go on to make code S. code S ro16: MMA(1-2)vsPolt(2-1), Bomber(1-2)vsKeen(2-1), Zenio(1-2)vsTOP(2-1), Virus(1-2)vsGenius(2-1), Nestea(0-2)vsMVP(2-0), Huk(2-1)vsNada(1-2), Puzzle(0-2)vsRyung(2-0), Hongun(0-2)vsJuly(2-0) who's mediocre there? Bomber? Virus? MVP and TOP are facing off for the final, MMA and Polt have already proven themselves to be excellent players, Nada is most definitely not mediocre, Ryung has had consistent, fairly strong showings.... There is something that most of you are missing, it's that the korean scene was a huge terran / zerg scene back in SC1. I don't understand why nobody ever talk about that. The fact that, during SC1, the protoss race was the least developped race for a long time while terran (from boxer to nada... and flash) and zerg (july, savior, jaedong) all had their own bonjwa. Who's the protoss bonjwa ? Nal_rA ? Garimto ? Stork ? Old legends and well... stork who never had the dominance flash or jaedong had. There have been 4 golden mouse in SC2's history : 2 zerg and 2 terran. And the two other players who were the closest to had their golden mouse were iloveoov and boxer, two terran AGAIN. SC2 is a new game, but in korea, SC1 WAS EVERYTHING about esport, and SC2 came into that very scene : that's why there are least protoss and protoss is least developped (MC and sangho are the two only old SC1 pro gamer who switched to SC2's protoss, while marineking went terran). If you compare to europe, where protoss are HUGE. Look again : the most successful foreigner in code A & S is a protoss player (huk). Look now, yellow is switching, which race did he decided to play ? Obviously... zerg. Korea = zerg and terran heavy. That's interesting theorycraft, but Zerg are by far the least represented race in Korea, both in pro teams, and on the ladder. It's also not like most of the dominant Terran or Zerg players were anything to write home about. MVP and SangHo are by far the most accomplished SC1 players out of the bunch, relative to when they switched. Plus, it's not like there's a lack of Protoss players in the BW scene. The top30 of Kespa rankings is relatively balanced, with 8 Protoss, 10 Terrans and 12 Zerg. Plus, the OSL finals are going to be + Show Spoiler +PvT, with a good chance for JangBi to take it if he doesn't choke terribly . It's ridiculous to suggest that all the talent would choose Terran or Zerg in SC2, when the same doesn't even happen in BW. Maybe I'm wrong, as you said it's theorycraft. But Bisu and stork never had the impact boxer, jaedong or flash had on the scene. Are you sure that there are the same number of protoss zerg and terran competing for the GSL prelim ?
In the most recent Code A Qualifier, there was actually more Protosses and Zergs than there were Terrans. There's only around ~60 Terrans in major teams in Korea, and more than 30 of them are in the GSL already, so teams are running dry on Terrans.  In line with this effect, mostly Protoss and Zerg have qualified this time around.
You can find the full qualifier bracket in Liquipedia.
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WhiteDog, the best silver player also took zerg, does that make zerg competitive? Stop bs-ing about the foreigner scene, the foreigners could all play a ultimate race, they would still be losing, foreigners are losing regardless of race.
Protoss is terribad atm, it´s a fact, not up for debate really...All statistics support the claim...
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When a teamliquid article openly states that "It is no secret now that protoss is underpowered at the highest current level of play" and that "studying MC's record suggests that protoss has actually never been competitive in the entire history of Sc2", and when teamliquid allows these kind of balance discussions, I think we can conclude there really is a balance problem here, and protoss really is severely underpowered.
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On September 10 2011 02:39 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:03 Erasme wrote:On September 09 2011 09:47 OlorinTheWise wrote:On September 09 2011 08:53 Erasme wrote:
5 rax reaper was nerfed because of 1v1, I'm tired of seeing people thinking that it wasn't an abusive strat. See MorroW vs Idra at IEM. I never said it wasn't an abusive strategy. However, the primary reason that the Reaper was nerfed was how imbalanced it was in 2v2, not 1v1. Oh sorry, I was diamond when 5rax reaper was in place. Where were you ? By the way abusive = imbalanced and yes you can say it was imbalanced since the counter of that strat (roach + speed) was nullified by expand + marauders from terran. At high level MorroW used it against superior player (Idra just when he was back from Korea). He also said in that interview that 5rax reapers against zerg is abusive. Does anyone remember ? 'Oh noes it was for 2v2, 1v1 tournament wasn't plagued with this strat !' Thank you mister protoss. I will repeat myself about the 'imbalance' in PvT. We cannot say now that there is an imbalance, we will be able to see it in months. I'm not sure if you understand the irony, but your "we cannot say there's an imbalance, let's wait a few months" was exactly what Terran players said back in the 5RR days. Similarly, inferior Terran players are beating superior Protosses with the 1/1/1, and MVP tweeted that Terrans who 1/1/1 should be disqualified. You, right now, are the same as the Terrans back then, who wanted to wait for Zerg to figure out a response to 5RR.
I do and I'm sorry for you protoss, but eventually 5rr was nerfed into the ground. I'm sure that the 1.4 will allow you more flexibility.
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On September 10 2011 03:29 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:39 Toadvine wrote:On September 10 2011 01:03 Erasme wrote:On September 09 2011 09:47 OlorinTheWise wrote:On September 09 2011 08:53 Erasme wrote:
5 rax reaper was nerfed because of 1v1, I'm tired of seeing people thinking that it wasn't an abusive strat. See MorroW vs Idra at IEM. I never said it wasn't an abusive strategy. However, the primary reason that the Reaper was nerfed was how imbalanced it was in 2v2, not 1v1. Oh sorry, I was diamond when 5rax reaper was in place. Where were you ? By the way abusive = imbalanced and yes you can say it was imbalanced since the counter of that strat (roach + speed) was nullified by expand + marauders from terran. At high level MorroW used it against superior player (Idra just when he was back from Korea). He also said in that interview that 5rax reapers against zerg is abusive. Does anyone remember ? 'Oh noes it was for 2v2, 1v1 tournament wasn't plagued with this strat !' Thank you mister protoss. I will repeat myself about the 'imbalance' in PvT. We cannot say now that there is an imbalance, we will be able to see it in months. I'm not sure if you understand the irony, but your "we cannot say there's an imbalance, let's wait a few months" was exactly what Terran players said back in the 5RR days. Similarly, inferior Terran players are beating superior Protosses with the 1/1/1, and MVP tweeted that Terrans who 1/1/1 should be disqualified. You, right now, are the same as the Terrans back then, who wanted to wait for Zerg to figure out a response to 5RR. I do and I'm sorry for you protoss, but eventually 5rr was nerfed into the ground. I'm sure that the 1.4 will allow you more flexibility.
I can answer that right now, it won´t, it doesn´t fix what´s wrong with the 1-1-1. It will just give us a 10% win ratio vs it instead of 8%.
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On September 09 2011 09:34 OlorinTheWise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 06:19 tree.hugger wrote:
I think the most conclusive evidence for protoss being the weakest race is the unequal distribution of protoss win-rates among GSL players. One would expect that GSL-level players would have win rates that would be somewhat evenly, or perhaps normally distributed (help me out, stats people). Instead, the win-rates of protoss are unbelievably skewed.
GSL Code S is a place of very low turnover. It has taken successive seasons of the same issues to lead to the present malaise. In the article, I tried to argue that protoss has statistically gotten the short end of the stick for much of Sc2's history. Both of these issues are linked; a lot of mediocre, or just plain terrible, Protoss managed to qualify for the first Code S, and have been sticking around by just doing enough not to get dropped down. Combined that with how hard it is to actually qualify for Code A, and the level of play from Protoss in the GSL has been much lower than it should have been. Add in the removal of the Khaydarin Amulet, the nerf to Warp Gate timing, the buffs to both the Ghost and Infestor, and the recent refinements to Terran all-ins... Well, it's hardly surprising that Protoss is struggling in the GSL at the moment. If, in fact, the game is imbalanced at the moment, and it's not simply a period of adjustment to the recent changes, then I'd say it's largely because of the recent balance changes overshooting, not because Protoss as a whole has been fundamentally bad for the whole of SC2, as you seem to be implying.
I personally think, deep down inside, that it's both. Protoss have always been terrible, but nerfs and buffs just made things worse. And honestly, the things you listed probably had the biggest effect on protoss match ups. But because of MC I had doubts that protoss was terrible so I held out. Let's not forget all the unnecessary changes for team games, low level players, or knee jerk changes that were never retracted (VR range).
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On September 09 2011 12:36 babylon wrote:
No, the writer isn't trolling.
Uhhhhhh okay, here's the OP's problem..."I think the most conclusive evidence for protoss being the weakest race is the unequal distribution of protoss win-rates among GSL players".
This is such ludicrously poor reasoning that...no, just no.
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EPT
