EPTIEM Global Challenge Cologne - "Dead Presidents" - Page 27
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Please try to keep the discussion civil. And while I can't ask everyone to write a huge essay like tree.hugger, try to write out your opinions in a substantive, well-thought way. | ||
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stangstang
Canada281 Posts
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
It's quite sad but I think it's time for people to face the facts that, at the highest level of play, Protoss can't compete with Terran and can hardly compete with Zerg. The number of Terrans in Code S, and the lowest number till now of Protoss, should be sufficient evidence of this. Also saying that, Protoss is doing good in NA or Europe, is irrelevant given that the level of play in NA or Europe isn't at the highest level, not like in Korea. If we take a moment to analyze the Protoss race a bit and try to find the root of the problem, we notice that, resource for resource it seems to be the least efficient of the others. The problem is highlighted in the link from ledgerhs. As he pointed out at the 12 minute mark the Terran, who was on only 1 base, was actually ahead in supply of the Protoss, even though the Protoss had expanded early. The other problem was the ease with which the Terran army was able to kill the Protoss army. Normally, on equal supply and open ground two well rounded and well balanced armies should almost completely annihilate each other, very few survivals. The determining factor of fights should be positioning, terrain, upgrades, timings etc. The Protoss army was just straight up annihilated. I find it wrong that, a Protoss who was sitting on 2 bases for the better part of the game against a Terran on only 1 base was still stomped into the ground. I find it wrong that the Terran was ahead of the Protoss in supply after all that time. The MULE is a factor yes, over the course of the game it generated approximately 1800 minerals (200 minerals per min, kicks in at the 3:30 min mark). But it's still mind blowing that the Protoss army was still dispatched so easily. The only thing to conclude is that, the Protoss army is just inefficient. I would prefer not to nerf Terran because I feel the race is the most complete and flexible so far, I'd rather have Protoss and to a smaller extent Zerg buffed a bit more to catch up. I think the theme and feel of the Protoss has somehow been lost, it used to be that Protoss units where very expensive but very powerful, now they are just very expensive. The Terran army is in direct contrast to the Protoss army, it is very cheap and at the same time, very powerful, stim+ medivac heal make the bio ball very durable and strong, the bio ball can kite zealots forever, demolish stalkers and immortals. There are two ways to re balance Protoss. Either make the units cheaper or make them stronger. I personally wouldn't like the Protoss units to be made cheaper because, it could contradict the theme of the race, and it could also cause early game problems for the zerg and terran before specialist units come out. I still think some price reductions would be in order though, maybe a 25 gas cost reduction on sentries and stalkers. The other way to balance out Protoss units would be to make them stronger. Again making them stronger outright would cause some early game problems for zerg and terran, however you could make them stronger trough upgrades, ideally the upgrades should be not to easy to get for early game sake, but not too hard to get. However I'm not sure this would be the best solution since, we already have upgrades like Blink and Charge and it doesn't seem to help in either against the 1/1/1 or in late game. Another problem for Protoss is the ghost. Ghosts not only neutralize the Protoss specialist units, but the EMP also annihilates shields. It was manageable when Terrans only made 2 or 3 of them, but now with up to 16 ghosts being made, you have a real problem. Ghosts are cheaper then HT so you can't make more HT to keep up with the ghost numbers and trying to do so will also hurt your stalker and sentry count because of the ridiculous gas cost. Ghosts can EMP from farther than a HT can feedback. Lastly, even after all their energy is spent, ghosts can still contribute with DPS to a fight, and incidentally do bonus damage to light, aka zealots, HT don't do auto-attacks. Ghosts with cloak, and if you snipe the observers, can survive for quite a long time as well. The EMP probably needs a nerf, it should destroy energy and reveal stealth-ed units, but it either shouldn't destroy shields, or the remove shields part of the EMP shouldn't be AOE. It's a bit too brutal for the already not cost effective Protoss units to be made even less cost effective by removing their shields. Protoss also could use another method of detection. Zerg have two mobile ways to detect invisible units, overseers and fungal. Terrans have scans, EMP and Ravens. Protoss have only Observers, and against builds like the 1/1/1 the problem comes back to bite Protoss because, it can't experiment with different builds, they must get a Robo bay for the obs against the possibility of cloaked banshees. Overall it feels like the Protoss are very inflexible because they have very few options, and the ones that do exist have now been figured out and people know how to scout them, and late game they know how to counter the so called Protoss "deathball" or just pick it apart with constant harass or drops. Their units don't seem to be as powerful as they should, and the cost of their units isn't justified. I feel like, where the specialist units of the terran and zerg, the infestors, ghosts and ravens, are meant to augment their already mighty forces, the Protoss specialist units, the sentry and HT, are actually there to hold up the otherwise flimsy Protoss army. And you can see it in how the Protoss armies seem to crumble once the EMPs go of on the HT and sentries, or when the fungals go off and the baneling drops start to roll. While some of the problems could be solved in a patch, like re-balancing some units, it feels like only an expansion can patch all the holes, add one or two much needed units or some much needed upgrades. | ||
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ScaringKids
Portugal819 Posts
I know/hope MC will come back, will cheer for him even if he drop Code Z. Mana is becoming a serious beast. | ||
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Truedot
444 Posts
SC2 is barely a year old, and only real dedication was to Terran specifically cause it was the only race that had to be "finished". This smacks of cutting corners (for the other races), and it should be clear now why terran was the most finished, and that Z and P aren't complete races, and things like FF and infestor were really lame-ass stopgap measures to keep them viable. Doesn't it bother people that T has all the obvious strats and easy to discover ways of doing things at its fingertips, while esoteric and far removed strats like baneling drops and mass infestor had to be discovered for their power, and hallucination to use phoenix for scouting had to be discovered? both these race's new toys were found through lots of playtime and continually falling short in these areas as a race. The players with their ingenuity worked around the failings of the races. Meanwhile what has terran really done? They come up with new builds and combos of units and timings, and thats all well and good. But then players of T have the audacity to say that P and Z don't try to come up with new stuff. Z and P don't have the tools!! they're stuck because they are not well put together races. They worked long and hard and the best they have now is bane rain and hallucophoenix scouts? meanwhile T can "innovate" time and time again? isn't that just because they have the most well thought out and designed units/race, and not because 2/3d of the player base (Z and P) are incompetent drooling idiots? Thats what terran players are seeming to say by saying they don't innovate. | ||
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secretary bird
447 Posts
MVP just won his third with terran and he always was and is a better player than MC including in BW. Obviously marine/tank/banshee is a problem but even so MC could ve won all 3 games if he made better decisions i feel. Also I ve seen players defend it about 30 times now in different ways and since its already hardly viable on some maps i have hope it can be dealt with after the patch. Like it was mentioned before when 3 out of the top 4 are protoss whining about balance seems hardly warranted. People on this site seem to take balance way to seriously and personal. Like it affects their W/L rate or progress when they ladder or something which it doesnt. I always had a lot of respect for the mods patiently trying to keep the balance complaints to a minimum but lately I fear its no longer the case sometimes , downright encouraging it in some cases | ||
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MerciLess
213 Posts
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Olinim
4044 Posts
On September 13 2011 03:39 secretary bird wrote: Love MC but he clearly doesnt deserve 5 GSL titles, especially while making silly mistakes every game like those mentioned in the article. MVP just won his third with terran and he always was and is a better player than MC including in BW. Obviously marine/tank/banshee is a problem but even so MC could ve won all 3 games if he made better decisions i feel. Also I ve seen players defend it about 30 times now in different ways and since its already hardly viable on some maps i have hope it can be dealt with after the patch. Like it was mentioned before when 3 out of the top 4 are protoss whining about balance seems hardly warranted. People on this site seem to take balance way to seriously and personal. Like it affects their W/L rate or progress when they ladder or something which it doesnt. I always had a lot of respect for the mods patiently trying to keep the balance complaints to a minimum but lately I fear its no longer the case sometimes , downright encouraging it in some cases People take it seriously because we are tired of endless TvT, and seeing protoss players absolutely demolished because the race is crap in Korea. "I've seen people defend it blablahblah" I've also seen people defend 5 rax reaper and beat the deathball(before nerf), doesn't mean it isn't op as shit. The fact is 1/1/1 boasts insane winrates on maps like XNC and Meta, and with all the variations there is no reliable defense. Also funny how MVP suddenly re emerges, and is able to beat MC in TvP after the race isn't even competitive anymore in Korea, even though he his TvP was considerably weaker than his other matchups, and he hadn't made it out of groups in months. Hell, MVP himself admits 1/1/1 is imbalanced and protoss is struggling. | ||
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secretary bird
447 Posts
People take it seriously because we are tired of endless TvT, and seeing protoss players absolutely demolished because the race is crap in Korea. "I've seen people defend it blablahblah" I've also seen people defend 5 rax reaper and beat the deathball(before nerf), doesn't mean it isn't op as shit. The fact is 1/1/1 boasts insane winrates on maps like XNC and Meta, and with all the variations there is no reliable defense. Also funny how MVP suddenly re emerges, and is able to beat MC in TvP after the race isn't even competitive anymore in Korea, even though he his TvP was considerably weaker than his other matchups, and he hadn't made it out of groups in months. Hell, MVP himself admits 1/1/1 is imbalanced and protoss is struggling. I never said it wasnt broken on these maps, but if it was so extremely unbeatable you could do it on any map. Regardless that wasn t the point I just said there is some hope after the patch but I guess repeating the exact same balance whines for the millionth time is more constructive. Not saying MvP is wrong but he also said Terran is too weak and he s thinking about switching a few month ago funny how things change. I can understand getting tired of TvT but there are other tournaments and other things to do no one is forcing you to watch GSL and for some people it seems to go way beyond that. Also I doubt MC needs our pity he won a ton of tournaments/money using his shitty race not too long ago. In game 2 there were no tanks btw and MC s play was nowhere near ideal he is slumping if you ask me like MvP did both are beasts on a good day though no doubt. | ||
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green.at
Austria1459 Posts
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
On September 13 2011 03:39 secretary bird wrote: Love MC but he clearly doesnt deserve 5 GSL titles, especially while making silly mistakes every game like those mentioned in the article. MVP just won his third with terran and he always was and is a better player than MC including in BW. Obviously marine/tank/banshee is a problem but even so MC could ve won all 3 games if he made better decisions i feel. Also I ve seen players defend it about 30 times now in different ways and since its already hardly viable on some maps i have hope it can be dealt with after the patch. Like it was mentioned before when 3 out of the top 4 are protoss whining about balance seems hardly warranted. People on this site seem to take balance way to seriously and personal. Like it affects their W/L rate or progress when they ladder or something which it doesnt. I always had a lot of respect for the mods patiently trying to keep the balance complaints to a minimum but lately I fear its no longer the case sometimes , downright encouraging it in some cases MVP is not better than MC, MVP fell from code S when terran was doing great, while MC only fell from code S when every other protoss that got to the up/down matches fell too. MVP is equal to MC but with a better race. don't bother trying to say that terran is not the better race in the highest level, cuz you are wrong. | ||
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Cabinet Sanchez
Australia1097 Posts
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MichaelDonovan
United States1453 Posts
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BigHeadYoony
United States92 Posts
there are 5/32 protoss players in GSL Code S. if starcraft was completely balanced, the number should be 10~11/32. there are 20/32 terrans. i don't know what to call this other than imbalanced. | ||
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Cyclone306
Canada17 Posts
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
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LDPDC
France17 Posts
You should remember the 4-0 gsl TvT upset of Polt vs MMA before creating balance whines out of 3 games. As for the TPLD stats used as scientific truth by many posters, stats on 100 to 200 games have a huge error margin. They are NOT proof of anything. | ||
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Perscienter
957 Posts
The top 10 on all servers have been mainly Terrans all along. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On September 14 2011 01:25 Perscienter wrote: Biased? The top 10 on all servers have been mainly Terrans all along. Saying terran is OP is not the same as saying protoss is weak. | ||
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secretary bird
447 Posts
MVP is not better than MC, MVP fell from code S when terran was doing great, while MC only fell from code S when every other protoss that got to the up/down matches fell too. MVP is equal to MC but with a better race. don't bother trying to say that terran is not the better race in the highest level, cuz you are wrong. I was talking about IEM and the fact that Protoss did fine there. If people want to complain they could atleast pick a decent topic/argument to do it. If you think MvP and MC are equal that s fine with me but MvP fell to code A when no GSL terran was doing great in TvP. Also if you can only judge by results since quality of play is subjective and PvT and PvZ dont count because of imbalance there is no way to tell if MC is as good as he was before. Except that he got demolished by freaking Hongun who didnt even train for the match. Honestly if you take Marine/Tank/Banshee out of the equation with maps/the patch/a solution and Protoss players stop using their new PvT style which has never shown good results they would be fine. Maybe I m too optimistic but there are few terrans in Code A now and none of them good except Byun it could still turn around. btw I always wondered why protoss players dont forcefield the terrans ramp if they see late siege mode which is almost always. Anybody know? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 14 2011 02:39 secretary bird wrote: I was talking about IEM and the fact that Protoss did fine there. If people want to complain they could atleast pick a decent topic/argument to do it. If you think MvP and MC are equal that s fine with me but MvP fell to code A when no GSL terran was doing great in TvP. Also if you can only judge by results since quality of play is subjective and PvT and PvZ dont count because of imbalance there is no way to tell if MC is as good as he was before. Except that he got demolished by freaking Hongun who didnt even train for the match. Honestly if you take Marine/Tank/Banshee out of the equation with maps/the patch/a solution and Protoss players stop using their new PvT style which has never shown good results they would be fine. Maybe I m too optimistic but there are few terrans in Code A now and none of them good except Byun it could still turn around. btw I always wondered why protoss players dont forcefield the terrans ramp if they see late siege mode which is almost always. Anybody know? You can run out of forcefields and you might need in the battle later on? If you specificly talking about the 1/1/1 build, you run the risk of being sniped by banshees or the terran elevator his army out with a medvac. Forcfield the terrans ramp is risky and you can lose the entire game if you do it for to long. Also, the argument that you can't judge balance because there is no way to tell if MC is "as good as before" is silly. There is no % bar were we can see if players are playing to 100% of their potential. There is a lot of evidence that Protoss is losing more than just IEM. MC is what this article chooses to write about. | ||
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