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[GSL] Liquid`Ret - S3 Ro32 Foreigner Special

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[GSL] Liquid`Ret - S3 Ro32 Foreigner Special

Text byLovedrop
Graphics bypachi
November 30th, 2010 03:41 GMT
[image loading]
Banner by pachi. Screenshots from the GSL Round of 64.


GSL Season 3 RO32 Foreigner Special: Liquid`Ret
By Lovedrop


Remember when we promised you more stuff on the GSL? Here it is.

The lack of time and the massive amount of games often have our viewers stumped on what they should watch. While our recaps do a great job at solving that dilemma, the recaps themselves require an intensive amount of time to edit them to perfection which often delays them. It is our ultimate goal to provide contents coverage at a reasonably quick speed, and at the same time, not jeopardizing their quality. One way is to have a more in-depth version of our recaps. Given limited time, we had to narrow down our list of possible participants and it is no surprise that fans are most interested in the international participants in the GSL. These specials will cover their games with a summary/analysis portion and a post-game interview. Without further ado, let us indulge in our first interviewee, the Dutch maestro Jos de Kroon.

[image loading]



(Z)TLAF-Liquid`Ret vs. (T)TheBestfOu
+ Show Spoiler [Results] +
(Z)TLAF-Liquid`Ret <1-2> (T)TheBestfOu


Z8 Game 1 - Metalopolis T2
+ Show Spoiler [Show Recap] +
With cross-positions, Ret is confident in his ability to fend off early pressure and goes 15 hatch. The same thought goes through TheBest’s mind as he opts to go for 1 barrack fast expand. After his FE, TheBest grabs both of his refineries, looking to quickly push up the tech tree. Double factories are on the way for TheBest, with the first churning out hellions along with the infernal pre-igniter upgrade. While building his lair, Ret sacrifices an overlord to take a peek at TheBest’s three factories, and promptly throws down a roach warren. Meanwhile, blue-flamed hellions make their way across the map to Ret’s base, where there are little defenses against them. The hellions trot their way into the main forcing Ret to split his drones and significantly reduce mining time. The roaches clean up the mess in the main and TheBest optimistically sends out another batch of hellion, but does not deal enough damage to justify their worth in minerals.

Ret’s three hatcheries along with a fourth morphing in allows him to re-drone exceptionally quick, and TheBest looks poised for a two base timing push. The Terran mech army moves along the northern pass and TheBest scanning what’s ahead of him to siege his tanks in time. Ret goes a full circle with his roaches in order to make a delicious sandwich. The roaches flank but siege tank fire is just brutal against clumped up roaches, but supplies are now cleared for the deadly Brood Lords. TheBest takes out the natural and tries to walk up the ramp, but unfortunately thors are unable to maneuver themselves around broodlings and TheBest bottlenecks himself at the bottom of the ramp. TheBest stubbornly tries to force himself up the ramp but once all his anti-air is gone, brood lords still remain and Ret still has healthy expansions.

TheBest only started his third command center after his attack has been thwarted, and no vikings have graced the field. The overlord prevents TheBest from taking the 5 o’clock expansion, so he moves his CC and troops to the gold expansion. At the gold he’s met with roaches and brood lords and a dance off between corruptors, Vikings, and thors ensue. Ret catches the mech army out of position and drops roaches into TheBest’s main, forcing him to pull back everything he has to defend. While brood lords are no longer a threat at the main, another batch of roaches attack the gold natural. TheBest has no choice but to move out with his immobile army and is met along the upper passageway with a maxed roach army, who demolishes the mech and Ret is up 1-0. [22:54]
+ Show Spoiler [Show Analysis] +
Ret did that right thing by putting up a roach warren when the hellions were coming, the info came a bit late as he lost a few drones but then fended off the next attack soundly. His decision to bring the roaches around the back was questionable, as the front was extremely vulnerable. The roaches came back too late and the outcome of the battle did not change.

[image loading]

Roaches were no match for mech.


TheBest did not capitalize on his advantage and rashly force his way up the ramp, but the thors were never known to be units of great maneuverability. While he was able to kill some of the brood lords, his anti-air is now completely gone and Ret's other expansions are still safe and sound.

[image loading]

A foolish decision to try and attack the main.


Ret's brood lords cleaned up the ground army and now TheBest is starving for minerals. Ret wisely uses his BLs to harass the newly set up gold, which forces vikings from TheBest. Another weakness exposed by Ret is the immobility of mech, dropping the main simultaneously.

[image loading]

Two-pronged attack.


Frustrated that he cannot take a third and doom is imminent, TheBest has no choice but to push out and his forces get decimated.

[image loading]

Clean sweep.


The game swings greatly in favor of Ret after the first mech army was cleaned up. Heavy macro play favors the Zerg and the execution of TheBest's two base timing mech push was far from perfect. Had he chosen to shut down Ret's third and fourth, the game would've ended a bit differently.

T1 Game 2 - Steppes of War Z7
+ Show Spoiler [Show Recap] +
Ret risks the hatch first on a map with such short rush distances and TheBest wastes no time to rally his marines towards it. The first two marines pick off a few drones before they are forced back to the main, where TheBest is making a factory. Ret loses an overlord without seeing a starport has gone up, and decides to drop a baneling’s nest. The attack comes seconds later from TheBest with marines/hellions/medivac. The banelings are unable to deal maximum splash damage as TheBest utilizes his medevac to load up the injured units. Ret loses a large amount of zerglings and also a queen, but for the meantime, able to push TheBest back.

TheBest makes a swift tech switch to double starport banshees, while aggressively upgrading the blue flames for the hellions. TheBest moves out with three banshees, and takes out Ret’s queens one by one and evens out the series.[11:24]
+ Show Spoiler [Show Analysis] +
Ret took a huge risk with hatch first on Steppes of War. His reponses from seeing rallied marines was a bit over the top, but it was to make sure that he was able to fend off a two barracks attack.

[image loading]

A fake two barracks push while teching behind it.


TheBest had great control to counter the banelings, a unit that would decimate hellions and marines alike. Ret made the correct response and there was not much else that could've been done.

[image loading]

Safe from banelings inside a medivac.


The pre-ignitor upgrade is lethal, but it was the banshees that finished Ret off. Some might criticize that he should've tried and hold it off and he blew it by not transfusing his queen, but that's debatable. The third queen was in the main, and there were three banshees. The second queen had sub-150 energy, meaning one transfusion. Had TheBest micro'd back the damaged banshee, the queen would still have fallen. With his earlier losses, it was better to not push the rock up the hill and start afresh in game three.

[image loading]

Nail on the coffin.


T11 Game 3 - Jungle Basin Z5
+ Show Spoiler [Show Recap] +
A double gas is scouted out by Ret’s drone, and the expansion of TheBest is completely empty. Predicting hellions, Ret plays it safe to begin a roach warren. TheBest attaches a tech lab to the barracks and a reactor to the factory, pumping out marauders and hellions respectively. Ret pokes two roaches up the ramp and sees TheBest’s forces and turns around. The concussive shell catches one of the roaches and the other one flees back to warn his comrades. Zergling speed, a spine crawler, and a baneling’s nest are all under construction as Ret prepares to defend this early mid game push. The queens are able to snipe out the medivac but the rest of TheBest’s units march into the ramp to clear out Ret’s attacking units. 24 zerglings hatch and cleans up the remaining marauders. Now that all the queens have been demolished, TheBest’s sole viking has all the time in the world to hunt overlords.

TheBest prepares to go all-in, dropping two additional barracks and researching stim pack. He begins his attack by first dropping the hellions in Ret’s natural, splashing a huge shot on Ret’s zerglings, bringing the majority of them down to the red. TheBest stims up the front and damages the spine crawler. Ret does not pull his slow banelings back in time as they are severely crippled off-creep. Constant healing by the medivac keeps the marauders at full health, and Ret pulls all the drones at his natural to defend. TheBest backs down below the ramp, successfully funneling the drones. TheBest reinforces his push with streams of units and Ret’s zerglings are slowly dying. As the medivacs empty their tank, Ret desperately tries to hold with all of his drones. The stimmed units and micro are just too much for Ret to handle and our beloved Dutch hero is knocked out of the GSL.[15:02]
+ Show Spoiler [Show Analysis] +
Ret wasn't paying attention when his roaches turned around to attack the force that was chaing them, losing both of them in vain. The placement of the spine crawler was good as it can poke down the ramp, funneling more units, but it was too forward and had no time to morph in. Zergling speed barely kicked in when TheBest is already in front of Ret's base.

[image loading]

An army designed to kill early-game Zerg.


His zerglings pop and Ret is safe, but they would've taken less damage if speed was done. TheBest says no to expo and Ret knows this. Ret makes a spire instead of getting baneling speed, a structure that does not come into play at all in this game. An all-in attack was on the way, and that 200/200 went down the drain. The hellions soften up the zerglings a lot and there was another attack from the front.

[image loading]

Good multitasking.


Ret should've pulled back his banelings before they went off creep and a few were sniped. TheBest puts the two hellions in front to have vision and when the banelings came forward, they were sniped by the marauders on the low ground. Very good unit control by TheBest, the marauders are beastly tanks with medivac support. He was so close of holding it off.

[image loading]

So close.


Our very own beloved (Z)TLAF-Liquid`Ret joins us today after his nail-biting loss to TheBestfOu in the RO32 to discuss what really happened.




Ret Ro32: The Aftermath
Brought to you by riptide

Hi Ret, and thanks for joining us. We're all pretty bummed about today's games and how they turned out for you. How do you see your series vs thebestfou?

The games didn't go as I expected. I'm obviously disappointed about losing. TheBestFou used some very strong 1 base timing attacks that he executed very well, sadly I was unable to defend. It is silly when I look back thinking how much I was worried about the 'mid-game' onwards when all I had to do to take any of these games was to stop a rush.


You qualified for a GSL on your first attempt and then proceeded as far as the Ro32. What are your goals for 2011 and the main GSL tournament, and what steps will you take to make sure you're better prepared when you play your next GSL series?

My goals for 2011 are to play as many tournaments as possible and take down some of the big ones. As far as GSL goes, I want to achieve Code S and hopefully have a decent shot at first place consistently throughout the year. It is really a test to see just how much potential I have, given the same training as the other Korean progamers who I’m competing again. There are no excuses to not be amongst the very top.

I will keep practicing with my Liquid teammates over here in Korea, and playing the Korean ladder to get more familiar with all the strategies that are used here as they evolve.


TheBestFou's builds came under a lot of flak on the forums. What is your honest opinion of his play today?

I think he played solid all around. Game 1 he made a very strong timing attack w/ mech which gave me a lot of trouble, I think that was a very good choice given we were cross position and he would've gotten destroyed if he went Tank/Marine. On Steppes of War I anticipated 2 barrack play so much that I sacrificed a lot to be safe against it. His 1 base allin timing was very strong and he showed solid control against banelings. There wasn't much I could do.

In game 3 I honestly feel like I should have never lost that game if I played normally. I clicked the speedling upgrade and it never started, I may have been just under 100 minerals or 100 gas cause I made a roach or something. With speedlings and slow banelings I am confident I can hold off most allins on that map, even though I had never seen the one he did before and it was very hard to guess what exactly was coming. But all in all I think he used his strengths well and made the right choice not going into a macro game with me.


This isn’t often asked of players, but how do you fix your mindset after a loss like this and get back to training for the next event? Does it get easier with experience? What will make you get up tomorrow and throw yourself into another period of preparation?

Heh, I don't really have a choice, but honestly playing competitive Starcraft is very hard on a person. Every loss feels like a punch in the face that knocks you out, and it does not get any easier. I am a fighter though and next time I step in that ring I wanna be the one left standing, so I'm gonna keep trying my best in practice and try to focus harder so I make less mistakes in my next game. I hope a new opportunity to prove myself arises soon, because I feel like nobody's seen even half of what I can do. So there's no way I'm gonna stop now.


OK, by popular request, a question. How the hell do you make so much stuff, man? Is that kind of macro even legal?

This is gonna seem really lame, but SC2 made making units ridiculously easy. I hope soon people will praise me for my decision making rather than my macro, cause that says much more about me as a player.


Finally, if you'd like to improve in one key area of your play by the next GSL, what would it be?

Definitely scouting and prediction, as I believe they are the most important skills a Zerg player can have in their arsenal.


Any shout outs before we go?

I hope everyone tunes in and watches Jinro, the last hope for Liquid in GSL on Wednesday! We're going to work hard to prepare him, and hopefully he can pick up the ball where I dropped it. =) LIQUID FIGHTING~~



Next: TLAF-Liquid`Jinro & special guest EGIdrA + Ro32 Recap.

(T)TLAF-Liquid`Jinro is set to play his match on Wednesday, December 1st. His opponent is none other than WeMade's Moon, the War3 legend. The maps are Scrap Station, Xel'Naga Caverns, and Blistering Sands. The maps heavily favors Z, with the exception of Xel'Naga Caverns.

Immeadiately following his match will be (Z)EGIdrA going up against (T)IMmvp on the maps Blistering Sands, Steppes of War, and Metalopolis.

Stay tuned and thanks for reading !
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Writerundefeated thunderdome champion 。゚+.(o´・ω・`o)+.゚。イィ!! :+:+: @lubdrop
Swixi
Profile Joined August 2010
United States73 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-30 03:54:05
November 30 2010 03:53 GMT
#2
Awesome to see the analysis so quickly and hear directly from Ret.
holy_war
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States3590 Posts
November 30 2010 04:00 GMT
#3
Best of luck in the next GSL and kick some Korean ass! Liquid`Ret fighting!
rift
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
1819 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-30 04:02:06
November 30 2010 04:01 GMT
#4
You didn't drop the ball ret, shit happens. Climb to Code S in 2011 and show Korea what foreigners can do.
Licmyobelisk
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Philippines3682 Posts
November 30 2010 04:02 GMT
#5
OK, by popular request, a question. How the hell do you make so much stuff, man? Is that kind of macro even legal?

This is gonna seem really lame, but SC2 made making units ridiculously easy. I hope soon people will praise me for my decision making rather than my macro, cause that says much more about me as a player.



this had me laughing man! even though he said it's easy his macro in korean standards is still pretty ridiculous! ♥ so boss ret ^_^
I don't think I've ever wished my opponent good luck prior to a game. When I play, I play to win. I hope every opponent I ever have is cursed with fucking terrible luck. I hope they're stuck playing underneath a stepladder with a black cat in attendance a
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
November 30 2010 04:04 GMT
#6
It's nice to hear that he's really committed to bouncing right back. :D He's one of the most talented foreigners for sure.

Ret and TL (and Idra too, while I'm at it) hwaiting! Smash those korean nerds!
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
Cyanocyst
Profile Joined October 2010
2222 Posts
November 30 2010 04:08 GMT
#7
lol i was bragging about his macro on the forums just today even.

Even if he does find it easy, his macro is just so far ahead of all other Zergs.

Hope to see more of you in the future Ret, and ill try not to be so in awe of your macro, so i won't look past your decision making.
|| Fruit Dealer | Leenock | Yughio | Coca | Sniper | True | Solar | Dark |
Igakusei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States610 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-30 04:10:27
November 30 2010 04:09 GMT
#8
I'm a Ret fan for life, seriously.

At least Idra gets Blistering Sands first. Hopefully he gets cross positions on Metalopolis if it gets to game 3.

Do they allow you to thumb down maps for the Ro32? If so, I wonder why he allowed SoW.
PartyBiscuit
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada4525 Posts
November 30 2010 04:11 GMT
#9
I hope Ret will do well in his A-class tourneys and hopefully be able to take on the S-class players.
the farm ends here
Versita
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada1032 Posts
November 30 2010 04:13 GMT
#10
liquid fighting~~♥
BlueBird.
Profile Joined August 2008
United States3889 Posts
November 30 2010 04:18 GMT
#11
good job Ret, ro32 first try is nothing to frown about imo, and I feel you have the potential to get to S class next year and do well. Best of luck to you!
Currently Playing: Android Netrunner, Gwent, Gloomhaven, Board Games
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
November 30 2010 04:20 GMT
#12
Very cool. Excellent as always, writers.

RET HWAITING!!
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Hoosegow
Profile Joined August 2010
United States139 Posts
November 30 2010 04:23 GMT
#13
On November 30 2010 13:09 Igakusei wrote:
Do they allow you to thumb down maps for the Ro32? If so, I wonder why he allowed SoW.


They aren't using a thumbs-down system this season, which doesn't seem very ideal given the current map pool (Steppes)
zak
Profile Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1009 Posts
November 30 2010 04:33 GMT
#14
wow very well done. I love how unbiased and detailed the recaps are.

And ret is so humble and SO committed to winning and the game that it melts my heart. Ret fighting.
You know how to gain a victory, but not use it - maharbal
Monzterg
Profile Joined July 2009
Sweden257 Posts
November 30 2010 04:36 GMT
#15
No they removed the thumb down system because they realized that it was a good fair system and they dont want that.
They want to be able to favorise the players they want to be successful.
thekibk
Profile Joined April 2010
United States116 Posts
November 30 2010 04:41 GMT
#16
Lovin' this recap for the players that matter. hope they still do the less detailed full recap though. couldn't figure that out if that was being continued from the article.
Corn is no place for a mighty warrior!
garbanzo
Profile Joined October 2009
United States4046 Posts
November 30 2010 04:48 GMT
#17
I really like this recap. It's not often that you get to interview the losers and give their opinion of the games they just played.

Better luck next time to Ret. Keep fighting!
Even during difficult times, when I sat down to play the game, there were times where it felt like god has descended down and played [for me].
joheinous
Profile Joined August 2010
Iceland522 Posts
November 30 2010 04:55 GMT
#18
great interview good job by ret and good luck to him in the future. On a side note I just noticed jinros maps considering that and the maps ret got this shit is just getting ridiculous. it has to be fixed for the next gsl.
Everything is self-evident
Irave
Profile Joined October 2010
United States9965 Posts
November 30 2010 05:01 GMT
#19
Ret is an amazing player and person, I wish him the best of luck in all upcoming GSL events. Its a shame that he lost, but he will learn a ton from it and only improve more.
cronican
Profile Joined February 2009
Canada424 Posts
November 30 2010 05:04 GMT
#20
Ret fan forever. Round of 32 on your first try is super impressive, nothing can take that away from you.

Looking forward to your domination.
Lovedrop
Profile Joined April 2010
2629 Posts
November 30 2010 05:07 GMT
#21
On November 30 2010 13:41 thekibk wrote:
Lovin' this recap for the players that matter. hope they still do the less detailed full recap though. couldn't figure that out if that was being continued from the article.


We will continue to do both, but these detailed ones will come out much faster, preferably within a day of the match that was played.
Writerundefeated thunderdome champion 。゚+.(o´・ω・`o)+.゚。イィ!! :+:+: @lubdrop
silentreality
Profile Joined March 2008
Korea (South)222 Posts
November 30 2010 05:08 GMT
#22
Go get em next time Ret! You have won over a lot of fans here in Korea with your creep play! Commentators have begun to call every map "creep" (종막) + name when you play! As in 종막 초원, 종막 도시 -- I guess the closest translation would be Steppes of Creep, Creepapolis etc.

Dox
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia1199 Posts
November 30 2010 05:17 GMT
#23
I absolutely loved watching Ret's Metalopolis game in the Ro64 where he had a 200 supply army, and he engaged the Protoss army of Stalker+Colossus and the army counter kept spiking back up to 200 as soon as each unit in his army died. It was like... "200, 198, 196, 200, 198, 200, 194, 200"

Had never seen Ret play until then, but now I'm a definite fan. Hope to see you smash it up next year!
@NvDox | Plantronics Nv: Rossi . mOOnGLaDe . deth . JazBas | @NvSC2 | @NvCoD | @NvLeague | @NvHearthstone | @NvDotA2 | @PLT_MF
TheSurgeonTV
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States131 Posts
November 30 2010 05:22 GMT
#24
@silentreality great translation, we need more of this kind of insight. Go Jinro, carry the torch!
Bringing Starcraft Main Stream
nBk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
174 Posts
November 30 2010 05:33 GMT
#25
I love you Ret! Keep up the awesome zerg play, best of luck to you in the future!
We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will.
sl0w
Profile Joined July 2010
United States447 Posts
November 30 2010 05:34 GMT
#26
Kick ass next season, Ret!
z00t
Profile Joined April 2010
Australia976 Posts
November 30 2010 05:47 GMT
#27
Thanks for the interview!

Despite the loss, we still love Ret! Just getting into the main event is an accomplishment in itself given how few foreigners there are. If only there were as many foreigners as there are Koreans in the qualifiers :[.

Very wise words from Ret, saying that decision-making says more about him as a player than his raw macro prowess. Nonetheless, as easy as he makes it sound, I'm sure many of us, even those at the top, struggle with macro as impressive as his. Case in point - just the fact that we almost never see Creep spreading as diligent as his.


Nexic
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States729 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-30 05:57:15
November 30 2010 05:56 GMT
#28
Ret is awesome! So excited to see what comes out of him in the coming months.

It would be great to see some epic Ret KR replays in a TL weekly like Haypro the other week.
ecdN
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States94 Posts
November 30 2010 05:57 GMT
#29
More biased questions next time.

User was warned for this post
BasilPesto
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia624 Posts
November 30 2010 06:03 GMT
#30
Ret sounds like a champ regardless. Good luck to him.
"I before E...*sunglasses*... except after C." - Jim Carrey
Jackle
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada859 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-30 06:14:23
November 30 2010 06:10 GMT
#31
Kinda of topic, but does the korean stream have Picture in Picture? That's frickin awesome. (if that screenshot isn't shopped)

Edit: Referring to the two pronged attack. (Not the player cams)
You called down the thunder, now reap the whirlwind.
MassHysteria
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3678 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-30 06:14:37
November 30 2010 06:14 GMT
#32
Good work on adding these quick interviews of the players now Gives us great insight into the players which I sometimes feel need more highlighting and exposure...but some great answers from Ret in this. Hope you use it as motivation to work hard Ret.
"Just ban all the J's...even jinklejoes" --unnamed source
kky
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States76 Posts
November 30 2010 06:17 GMT
#33
Saw some really amazing play from Ret. No doubt in my mind that if he stays in Korea and continues to train, he will be at the top.
Enyalus
Profile Joined September 2010
United States135 Posts
November 30 2010 06:23 GMT
#34
Liquid's got two of my favorite three Zergs, and Ret seems like such a classy guy. Far too nice though. If I got all-in'd three games in a row of the largest e-Sports tournament, I'd go IdrA rage on my opponent. I felt so bad for Ret watching that. He was clearly the superior SC2 player mechanics-wise.

Looking forward to seeing him compete in GSL S4.
nehl
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany270 Posts
November 30 2010 06:28 GMT
#35
On November 30 2010 14:08 silentreality wrote:
Go get em next time Ret! You have won over a lot of fans here in Korea with your creep play! Commentators have begun to call every map "creep" (종막) + name when you play! As in 종막 초원, 종막 도시 -- I guess the closest translation would be Steppes of Creep, Creepapolis etc.



thast awesome!!
next turney ret will go further and if he learns to stop these rushes, and stop makeing stupid decisions, i think he will be able to thake this whole turnament. in the future thoug. Ret gogogo

now lets support jinro and hope he will go on...
NeoLearner
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Belgium1847 Posts
November 30 2010 06:58 GMT
#36
Great analysis and interview, I was hoping for something like this to pop up.
Keep showing us awesome games Ret!
Bankai - Correlation does not imply causation
savagebeavers
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada108 Posts
November 30 2010 07:04 GMT
#37
I cannot wait for Idra's game, and if Idra and jinro both win i do believe they will be playing eachother in the round of 16. That kinda sucks but at least it would garuntee a foreigner in the top 8
skronch
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2717 Posts
November 30 2010 07:07 GMT
#38
from idra's twitter:

"ret vs thebest was one of the largest injustices ever committed. i shall avenge him vs mvp. unless he knows about banshees."

i agree
origamiXD
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States46 Posts
November 30 2010 07:09 GMT
#39
Ret, you are such a baller. You will destroy in all other tournaments.

I hope Jinro and IdrA both win.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvCd0spfmPY
mcneebs
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada391 Posts
November 30 2010 07:10 GMT
#40
Go ret! You've really turned everything around in the last year or so, and that's what I'm liking most. Stomping koreans will come in time. Just stay with it!
You do it to yourself. Just you. You and no one else.
Al Bundy
Profile Joined April 2010
7257 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-30 07:43:56
November 30 2010 07:35 GMT
#41
Ret is right. In sc2 macro is a secondary / minor thing, Blizzard made macro easy so the players can focus on strats and execution. Sure in the beta and during release macro was seen as big because no one would really show perfect macro but it will become standard amongst progamers. Just look at Idra's macro, in the past he was considered the best macro zerg, but nowadays more and more top zergs manage to achieve such macro.
o choro é livre
Tippany
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States765 Posts
November 30 2010 07:39 GMT
#42
Ret fighting!!
Real action, my dream.
samuraibael
Profile Joined February 2008
Australia294 Posts
November 30 2010 07:53 GMT
#43
I dont even know why people still talk about macro in sc2. Ret is just being honest not modest when he says dont compliment him on that... it is not so much a skill as just a choice for the zerg.
SC1 macro took incredible multitasking and apm while sc2 is just making drones while not dieing. Its only game sense now rather than pure mechanical skill.
semajwd
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada36 Posts
November 30 2010 08:12 GMT
#44
So amazing the play on rets part awsome, finally we penetrate through the amass of koreans!
...................Infamous Immortal Socrates ;) http://www.sc2ranks.com/team/4558230
PH
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6173 Posts
November 30 2010 08:21 GMT
#45
This is gonna seem really lame, but SC2 made making units ridiculously easy.

LOLOL <3 RET
Hello
zak
Profile Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1009 Posts
November 30 2010 08:25 GMT
#46
On November 30 2010 16:07 skronch wrote:
from idra's twitter:

"ret vs thebest was one of the largest injustices ever committed. i shall avenge him vs mvp. unless he knows about banshees."

i agree


lol...imma cry if idra loses. But I've seen him kite BCs with queens...so I think he will be okay!
You know how to gain a victory, but not use it - maharbal
arQ
Profile Joined October 2010
1033 Posts
November 30 2010 08:26 GMT
#47
Future SC2 Bonjwa. Yessireebob.
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." -Carl Sagan || Flash || Mvp || Naniwa ||
Klive5ive
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom6056 Posts
November 30 2010 08:41 GMT
#48
On November 30 2010 12:41 Lovedrop wrote:
(T)TLAF-Liquid`Jinro is set to play his match on Wednesday, December 1st. His opponent is none other than WeMade's Moon, the War3 legend. The maps are Scrap Station, Xel'Naga Caverns, and Blistering Sands. The maps heavily favors Z, with the exception of Xel'Naga Caverns.

Immeadiately following his match will be (Z)EGIdrA going up against (T)IMmvp on the maps Blistering Sands

This is absolutely ridiculous.
Those maps couldn't be worse for out players if they tried.
How the hell can the GSL have a map system so pathetically bad as this?
Don't hate the player - Hate the game
Silentness
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2821 Posts
November 30 2010 08:46 GMT
#49
On November 30 2010 17:41 Klive5ive wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2010 12:41 Lovedrop wrote:
(T)TLAF-Liquid`Jinro is set to play his match on Wednesday, December 1st. His opponent is none other than WeMade's Moon, the War3 legend. The maps are Scrap Station, Xel'Naga Caverns, and Blistering Sands. The maps heavily favors Z, with the exception of Xel'Naga Caverns.

Immeadiately following his match will be (Z)EGIdrA going up against (T)IMmvp on the maps Blistering Sands

This is absolutely ridiculous.
Those maps couldn't be worse for out players if they tried.
How the hell can the GSL have a map system so pathetically bad as this?


Your signature is ironic to your comments.

I have faith in IdrA though even though he's going up against an ex BW pro player. I do think it's kind of lame though how they pick the GSL maps. Honestly though Starcraft 2 just needs more maps in general.
GL HF... YOLO..lololollol.
xlnt
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden106 Posts
November 30 2010 09:00 GMT
#50
Was so sad to see you get knocked out when I watched the games last night I hope you make S-Class ASAP next year! Liquid` Fighting~~!
roxxor?
Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
November 30 2010 09:01 GMT
#51
I don't think the problem is the AMOUNT of maps, in total, it's the need for a team like the ones who made the korean maps like destination, fighting spirit etc. Maybe a GSL map team which makes a few maps every other season which the players have to play on. There should still be few available maps each season, but there should be new maps often.
Imbu
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States903 Posts
November 30 2010 09:02 GMT
#52
Ret, you are by far the most inspirational player I have ever gotten the pleasure of watching. When I found out that you had lost this morning, I was unable to go through the day without having this sinking feeling in my stomach.

I'm looking forward to your next run! It'll be a final showing for sure!
@DreamingBird
fabulously
Profile Joined November 2010
Norway724 Posts
November 30 2010 09:21 GMT
#53
Great interview, and amazing performance. Such a pity those matches. I am sure jinro and idra will avenge you! Well done either way and good luck in the future.
Welcome back ROOT-gaming - you were never forgotten <3
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
November 30 2010 09:33 GMT
#54
On November 30 2010 17:41 Klive5ive wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2010 12:41 Lovedrop wrote:
(T)TLAF-Liquid`Jinro is set to play his match on Wednesday, December 1st. His opponent is none other than WeMade's Moon, the War3 legend. The maps are Scrap Station, Xel'Naga Caverns, and Blistering Sands. The maps heavily favors Z, with the exception of Xel'Naga Caverns.

Immeadiately following his match will be (Z)EGIdrA going up against (T)IMmvp on the maps Blistering Sands

This is absolutely ridiculous.
Those maps couldn't be worse for out players if they tried.
How the hell can the GSL have a map system so pathetically bad as this?

It makes Moon vs Boxer more probable which is good for gom
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
TheAntZ
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Israel6248 Posts
November 30 2010 09:54 GMT
#55
On November 30 2010 18:33 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2010 17:41 Klive5ive wrote:
On November 30 2010 12:41 Lovedrop wrote:
(T)TLAF-Liquid`Jinro is set to play his match on Wednesday, December 1st. His opponent is none other than WeMade's Moon, the War3 legend. The maps are Scrap Station, Xel'Naga Caverns, and Blistering Sands. The maps heavily favors Z, with the exception of Xel'Naga Caverns.

Immeadiately following his match will be (Z)EGIdrA going up against (T)IMmvp on the maps Blistering Sands

This is absolutely ridiculous.
Those maps couldn't be worse for out players if they tried.
How the hell can the GSL have a map system so pathetically bad as this?

It makes Moon vs Boxer more probable which is good for gom


reading this leaves a terrible taste in my mouth
like bile
43084 | Honeybadger: "So july, you're in the GSL finals. How do you feel?!" ~ July: "HUNGRY."
DayJP
Profile Joined November 2010
Brazil477 Posts
November 30 2010 09:55 GMT
#56
good luck next time ret
i always go against bandwagons but man, you are indeed one of the best zergs around
"Why did the Colossus fall over? Because it's imbalanced! :D" - Dan Artosis
Ohjay
Profile Joined October 2009
Germany83 Posts
November 30 2010 09:55 GMT
#57
This map system is so ridiculos!

RET FIGHTING!!!
BoBite
Profile Joined April 2010
Poland16 Posts
November 30 2010 10:04 GMT
#58
I'm pretty much dissapointed in ret's lose :/ I thought he will win this one easy after first set. Unfortunately for my favorite zerg he lost but I know he can make it to the finals some day and win it. Go go RET! I also hope that more great european players, like MaNa, Tarson, guys from mouz will show up in the GSL in future.
What comes around, goes around.
7mk
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Germany10157 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-30 10:17:44
November 30 2010 10:15 GMT
#59
Still a bit bummed about the games yesterday..

thx for the fast recap, it's quite nice to read it so fast after the games happened


On November 30 2010 18:33 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2010 17:41 Klive5ive wrote:
On November 30 2010 12:41 Lovedrop wrote:
(T)TLAF-Liquid`Jinro is set to play his match on Wednesday, December 1st. His opponent is none other than WeMade's Moon, the War3 legend. The maps are Scrap Station, Xel'Naga Caverns, and Blistering Sands. The maps heavily favors Z, with the exception of Xel'Naga Caverns.

Immeadiately following his match will be (Z)EGIdrA going up against (T)IMmvp on the maps Blistering Sands

This is absolutely ridiculous.
Those maps couldn't be worse for out players if they tried.
How the hell can the GSL have a map system so pathetically bad as this?

It makes Moon vs Boxer more probable which is good for gom



+ Show Spoiler +
Mpf, yeah I wasnt aware of that, but looking at the brackets of ro 64 it was extremely likely to me that they were rigged. This explains why they did this horrible change, to control whos gonna play who even more...
beep boop
DoXa
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Switzerland1448 Posts
November 30 2010 10:39 GMT
#60
On November 30 2010 18:33 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2010 17:41 Klive5ive wrote:
On November 30 2010 12:41 Lovedrop wrote:
(T)TLAF-Liquid`Jinro is set to play his match on Wednesday, December 1st. His opponent is none other than WeMade's Moon, the War3 legend. The maps are Scrap Station, Xel'Naga Caverns, and Blistering Sands. The maps heavily favors Z, with the exception of Xel'Naga Caverns.

Immeadiately following his match will be (Z)EGIdrA going up against (T)IMmvp on the maps Blistering Sands

This is absolutely ridiculous.
Those maps couldn't be worse for out players if they tried.
How the hell can the GSL have a map system so pathetically bad as this?

It makes Moon vs Boxer more probable which is good for gom


so gom isn't randomly selecting the maps but looks which players would give them more viewers? is that why they removed map-veto?

great job with the interview and the coverage, looking forward for more!
FetTerBender
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany1393 Posts
November 30 2010 10:39 GMT
#61
Im sure Ret is going to have a shot for revenge in the upcoming GSL´s / other tournaments.

He shows really solid play & decision making, overall i think he had pretty bad luck in game 3...

There's a fine line between bravery and stupidity.
XRaDiiX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada1730 Posts
November 30 2010 10:53 GMT
#62
Ret did good he got to ro32 thats still quite an achievment!

IdrA and Jinro HWAITING!!!!!!!

Never GG MKP | IdrA
Xeteh
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States589 Posts
November 30 2010 10:56 GMT
#63
You played great in the GSL, Ret. I hope you don't get too down with how the games went. You might have made some mistakes but you'll come back stronger, I was seriously impressed with your play and I can't wait to see you in future Korean tournaments.
Nizaris
Profile Joined May 2010
Belgium2230 Posts
November 30 2010 11:08 GMT
#64
Man i hope they don't pull the same BS with maps next year for the Code S League. I have a bad feeling that they will

Ret <3
Myrkul
Profile Joined February 2009
Croatia132 Posts
November 30 2010 11:43 GMT
#65
On November 30 2010 13:36 Monzterg wrote:
No they removed the thumb down system because they realized that it was a good fair system and they dont want that.
They want to be able to favorise the players they want to be successful.


I have a feeling they did it specifically to make it harder for zergs since zergs won the first two seasons, kind of like when Kespa made the "6 dragons era" by releasing a bunch of toss favored maps
July = best goddamn zvp in this part of the universe
imbecile
Profile Joined October 2009
563 Posts
November 30 2010 12:24 GMT
#66
I wished ret would have done the good old baneling bust on steppes. Would have worked totally. Better than an FE on that map. Gotta change it up sometimes anyway.

Huxley
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom58 Posts
November 30 2010 12:33 GMT
#67
Rets a great player but i was dissapointed he didnt vary his play for the smaller maps. Even Idra mixed things up for Steppes.
khellian
Profile Joined February 2010
Korea (South)922 Posts
November 30 2010 12:38 GMT
#68
Haven't seen much of Ret in SC2 before, but after this GSL he is definetly one of my favourite players to watch. Ret fighting!
Gulzt
Profile Joined August 2009
Netherlands275 Posts
November 30 2010 12:46 GMT
#69
I was so impressed with Ret's creep spread, just awesome
Boysarn
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden77 Posts
November 30 2010 13:19 GMT
#70
Ret is awesome, shit happens man you'll get em nextime
Tjenare
HeavyArmZ
Profile Joined May 2010
Brazil28 Posts
November 30 2010 13:21 GMT
#71
Amazing matches, I couldn't on the first match, going Broodlords was fantastic against his unit composition, and your macro let you do it pretty well.

Thanks for an awesome macro match and 2 very very close micro ones =)
Looking forward to more Ret on GSL 4.
Liquid`Nazgul
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
22427 Posts
November 30 2010 13:33 GMT
#72
On November 30 2010 21:33 Huxley wrote:
Rets a great player but i was dissapointed he didnt vary his play for the smaller maps. Even Idra mixed things up for Steppes.

He did actually.. tons of tweaks for him between the various maps. They may not be the difference between 16 hatch and 6 pool but they were definitely there to adjust to the setting of the map.
Administrator
CTStalker
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Canada9720 Posts
November 30 2010 13:35 GMT
#73
thebest definitely executed his builds well. GL next time, ret! it was an exciting series
By the way, my name is Funk. I am not of your world
john0507
Profile Joined August 2010
164 Posts
November 30 2010 13:52 GMT
#74
Hope he gets better as next year progresses. Will be quite hard tho since the format for GSL will be totally different.
But tbh , he seems too play way too much like Idra used too, which is just purely solid/macro-based and at times being really really predictable.
Hopefully the training he gets in Korea would help him a lot seeing as the korean zergs have some really aggresive styles to diversify their play.
Ikkuh
Profile Joined June 2010
Netherlands170 Posts
November 30 2010 14:20 GMT
#75
I literally was on the edge of my chair in all three games, they were so tense and I was really happy when he won the first one but got worried after him losing the second one . I really hope Ret performs well in future tournaments, he is a great player.
MacroNcheesE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States508 Posts
November 30 2010 14:32 GMT
#76
Ret looked sooooooooooooo amazing in that first game, holy hell. I was just casually watching the stream and then I looked at the mini-map and I was shocked at how much/fast he took the upper left of the map. He responded so well to the mech all-in, although the pump fake counter was a terrible idea... Unless he was going for a flank... but he could have just went across the terran's gold location... The 2nd/3rd game were truly heartbreaking T_T. Too bad he's zerg scum! =)
Doubt is the venom that has paralyzed humanity.
Firereaver
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
India1701 Posts
November 30 2010 14:36 GMT
#77
Ret's the man. No doubt! IdrA, Ret, Jinro and HuK have to clean up the GSL's next year.

P.S: O doubters, mark my words, with HuK going into practice-God-mode he can allkill a GSL no probs.
"They drone drone drone , me win" - JangMinChul(Iron/oGsMC)
ThePurist
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada686 Posts
November 30 2010 14:54 GMT
#78
Ret's games were spectacular... it was a shame his run was ended by an opponent he could have beaten (imho)

I hope he's even hungrier for the Code S and displays his beast macro some more
Varmendrion
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany27 Posts
November 30 2010 15:28 GMT
#79
really well done. gj
resilve
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom678 Posts
November 30 2010 15:35 GMT
#80
I think you are just a victim of the terrible map pool rule (which only punishes zerg) and strange metagame shift towards terran in TvZ (zerg dont seem fully settled on this early marine/scv harrassments) - hopefully next GSL you compete in you will have a more 'fair' playing field.

Gl man!
Socke Fighting!!!!
Rustug
Profile Joined October 2010
1488 Posts
November 30 2010 16:08 GMT
#81
According to the Chinese calendar 2011 is the Year of the Rabbit.
But my Gut feeling says it is going to be the Year of the Ret.
Curious that we spend more time congratulating people who have succeeded than encouraging people who have not. 파이팅! ᕦ(ò_óˇ)ᕤ"
Slardar
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada7593 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-30 17:10:53
November 30 2010 17:10 GMT
#82
He should have definitely mixed it up a bit, throw in a hyper-aggressive Kyrix style or Nydus play. Always having to play a guessing game against Terran is stupid, all they have to do is sit in their base and scan. Sighhhh now IdrA is our only Western Zerg hope......sad day indeed!
Neroin
Profile Joined March 2009
Germany173 Posts
November 30 2010 17:20 GMT
#83
On November 30 2010 22:33 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2010 21:33 Huxley wrote:
Rets a great player but i was dissapointed he didnt vary his play for the smaller maps. Even Idra mixed things up for Steppes.

He did actually.. tons of tweaks for him between the various maps. They may not be the difference between 16 hatch and 6 pool but they were definitely there to adjust to the setting of the map.

What's your stance on the maps? Do you think they are unfair and Ret probably would've won on other maps? Or do you think they weren't the deciding factor?
You're on of the people whose opinion I really respect.
goswser
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3519 Posts
November 30 2010 17:25 GMT
#84
Moon didn't look all that good in his ro64, I think Jinro can take him down if he plays well!
say you were born into a jungle indian tribe where food was scarce...would you run around from teepee to teepee stealing meat scraps after a day lazying around doing nothing except warming urself by a fire that you didn't even make yourself? -rekrul
mordk
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Chile8385 Posts
November 30 2010 17:53 GMT
#85
Jinro can definitely take down Moon. Only once he retires from pro war3 will his true sc2 potential be revealed.
Liquid`Nazgul
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
22427 Posts
November 30 2010 18:06 GMT
#86
On December 01 2010 02:20 Neroin wrote:
What's your stance on the maps? Do you think they are unfair and Ret probably would've won on other maps? Or do you think they weren't the deciding factor?
You're on of the people whose opinion I really respect.

The maps are about the worst possible in the mappool for ZvT. I do think Ret is good enough to overcome this though. He just didn't play his very best, since his very best is really something else. There's a good chance that the level he played at would have been enough on other maps so in that sense it is unfortunate that he had to play on Jungle Basin and Steppes.

TheBest played very good and made the best out of his situation. He designed some really nice strategies and adjusted them with regard to the mappool and executed them very well hats off to him.
Administrator
Copymizer
Profile Joined November 2010
Denmark2081 Posts
November 30 2010 18:43 GMT
#87
Keep up the good work Ret ! You'll only be better and learn from this ! This is only the beginning and there's so much in store for you !
~~Yo man ! MBCGame HERO Fighting !! Holy check !
slappy
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1271 Posts
November 30 2010 18:45 GMT
#88
ret fighting!!! nice job thus far good sir, and best of luck to you in the upcoming tournies!!
jaedong imba
Chewie
Profile Joined May 2010
Denmark708 Posts
November 30 2010 19:09 GMT
#89
You've gained a fan Ret.

I'm looking forward to following you and the rest of TL in the future.

Liquid FIGHTING!
JayDee_
Profile Joined June 2010
548 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-30 19:58:21
November 30 2010 19:55 GMT
#90
No offense to Ret, but I think he should realize that he lost because he focused too much on macroing econ/tech and not enough on massing/using his army.He would have lost the first game to a better opponent imo.
I hope he brings his A game next season.
Champi
Profile Joined March 2010
1422 Posts
November 30 2010 20:24 GMT
#91
ret is raw potential waiting to be unlocked, this fella will dominate in the future
Mithriel
Profile Joined November 2010
Netherlands2969 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-30 21:02:42
November 30 2010 21:01 GMT
#92
I've become such a Ret fan in the past weeks and i am not even playing zerg myself!

Such a shame he lost, but credits to TheBest for playing really well.

Good luck next time Ret!
There is no shame in defeat so long as the spirit is unconquered. | Cheering for Maru, Innovation and MMA!
McBrian
Profile Joined June 2010
Denmark38 Posts
November 30 2010 21:33 GMT
#93
Really, really great post! Enjoyed it a lot
eLiE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1039 Posts
November 30 2010 23:01 GMT
#94
Poor Ret, although he can't be surprised that no one would want to go mid or late game against him (read: HE'S A BEAST!). Can't wait to see him play again. And Idra must be enraged about his map luck right now...
How's the weather down there?
p4rasite
Profile Joined November 2010
Greece9 Posts
November 30 2010 23:17 GMT
#95
I just have one question. Can someone inform me how the maps are chosen in gsl?? Is there α draw in front of the players or something that would seem fair or does gom say that they choose it random and everyone believes it??
Real men drive tractors....
jment
Profile Joined March 2010
Austria68 Posts
November 30 2010 23:30 GMT
#96
cmon Jinro and IdrA !!!
warshop
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada490 Posts
December 01 2010 03:43 GMT
#97
I love you Ret. Seriously, everyone's behind you and hope you'll be able to shine next GSL

Go Code S!
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
December 01 2010 06:36 GMT
#98
Cool feature Lovedrop / riptide.

(Tweeted.)
✌
ITSmAnIaC
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany153 Posts
December 01 2010 16:41 GMT
#99
Yeah Foreigners FTW!
BÄM!BAM!BAM!
Newborn
Profile Joined February 2010
United States69 Posts
December 01 2010 22:03 GMT
#100
I hope a new opportunity to prove myself arises soon, because I feel like nobody's seen even half of what I can do. So there's no way I'm gonna stop now.


This is a winner's attitude. I can't wait to see you "destroy everyone" in 2011
His dreams were of houses, their cellars and attics. Ultimately of this city in the sea.
zerious
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada3803 Posts
December 02 2010 02:13 GMT
#101
When is the Jinro and Idra interview going up?
synapse
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
China13814 Posts
December 02 2010 03:00 GMT
#102
People think Ret's macro is good in SCII... he was GODLY in BW!

Great interview, sadface that Ret couldnt make it farther into GSL
:)
velo
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia48 Posts
December 02 2010 03:40 GMT
#103
You qualified for a GSL on your first attempt and then proceeded as far as the Ro32.


Pretty much it right there ^^, I was gutted when Ret lost I think he has an enormous amount of potential. I think InControl pretty much hit the nail on the head re: how the foreigner SC2 feels right now, in State of the Game Ep 22.
legendre20
Profile Joined November 2010
United States316 Posts
December 02 2010 09:18 GMT
#104
Great interview! I was really pullin' for Ret, too bad he couldn't make it through. Guess I'll be rootin' for Jinro now!
"Sen, lings are OP" - HelloKittySS /// <3 http://www.twitch.tv/legendre20 <3
Excstazy
Profile Joined October 2010
Colombia46 Posts
December 02 2010 16:08 GMT
#105
Ret is such an awesome person, cant wait to C him on some other tournaments!!
Liquid Fighting!!
Colombia!!!
Xanczor
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States254 Posts
December 07 2010 04:12 GMT
#106
Thanks so much for writing this. I love sc community its the best <3
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=100673&currentpage=22
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