EPTMatch-Fixing Scandal - Conclusion - Page 46
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On May 20 2010 04:13 JinMaikeul wrote: I'm saying it's a bit hypocritical of us to pretty much accept one instance of throwing a match and then go out and say that people should burn in hell for some other instance of it. You might use the same word to describe them but the idea is completely different. | ||
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
This is pretty much a story of criminals scamming other criminals out of money. The whole illusion of sportsmanship pretty much goes out the window for me when I actually look at these people are are supposed to display it. Professional sports players are more often than not people of questionable character and integrity than most likely would have been street thugs if they weren't athletes. Yet because they make their money playing games, we somehow hold them to a higher standard and are shocked when they rape or shoot someone? Likewise, pro-gamers in Korea for the most part are just kids who never grew up. I doubt they would have done well in school given their fondness of gaming enough to be better than anyone else, a lot of them probably hung out a lot in internet cafes and other places where they could very well have been in regular contact with less than honest characters and just like any other group of kids, I'm certainly not surprised that there's bad apples among them. Actually, if there's a shock for me, it's that there aren't more. When you look at public figures as human beings, it becomes a lot less surprising when they act human... Lesson of the day: Public figures aren't role models nor should they be considered as such since the reason that they become public figures often has little to do with their integrity. | ||
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mucker
United States1120 Posts
On May 20 2010 04:24 JinMaikeul wrote: I wonder what's going to happen to these pro-gamers implicated in this scandal... Obviously there's the issue of prosecution and sentencing, but aside from that, what are they gonig to do with their lives given that their pro-gaming career is essentially over now? I doubt any of them have an education or any prospects whatsoever to get into a university... Pretty sad, if you think about it. Probably poker and sports betting. | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On May 20 2010 04:44 JinMaikeul wrote: Well we all see things in a different light, I suppose. That's the beauty of forums like this and human interaction overall. Personally, I've seen and experienced enough to not be so heavily affected by something like this. If it was discovered that the New York Yankees were fixing games, I probably would say "That's terriible." and proceed to go about my day not really thinking too much about it. I'll admit that I'm certainly not as zealous or emotionally invested in all of this as some other people, but in a world where people are being killed by drunk drivers and people are senslessly murdered because they might have looked at someone on the street the wrong way, this all just seems very minor no matter how I look at it... =/ This is pretty much a story of criminals scamming other criminals out of money. The whole illusion of sportsmanship pretty much goes out the window for me when I actually look at these people are are supposed to display it. Professional sports players are more often than not people of questionable character and integrity than most likely would have been street thugs if they weren't athletes. Yet because they make their money playing games, we somehow hold them to a higher standard and are shocked when they rape or shoot someone? Likewise, pro-gamers in Korea for the most part are just kids who never grew up. I doubt they would have done well in school given their fondness of gaming enough to be better than anyone else, a lot of them probably hung out a lot in internet cafes and other places where they could very well have been in regular contact with less than honest characters and just like any other group of kids, I'm certainly not surprised that there's bad apples among them. Actually, if there's a shock for me, it's that there aren't more. When you look at public figures as human beings, it becomes a lot less surprising when they act human... Lesson of the day: Public figures aren't role models nor should they be considered as such since the reason that they become public figures often has little to do with their integrity. Your point about these people becoming criminals anyway is terribly insulting and almost certainly wrong. And no, they are not being held to some higher standard either. Unless you feel betraying your friends for money should be somehow acceptable. As for there being much worse things in the world, duh. | ||
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pR0gR4m3R
Spain1446 Posts
So, sAviOr is the last one left to confess guilty??? | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
My hero list now went from BoxeR Savior to BoxeR Bisu. | ||
Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL gl to them | ||
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san-tokie
Korea (South)185 Posts
Ignorance really is bliss~ Oh and now I hate go.go even more for eliminating bisu who is his close friend... sad, just sad. | ||
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KristianJS
2107 Posts
On May 20 2010 03:54 JinMaikeul wrote: If you've followed professional Starcraft on any level, you would have known that certain games were thrown even before all of this happened. Games were regularly thrown to avoid facing teammates or avoid facing certain bracket positions. It's happened at WCG, GomTV Invitational, and on one level or another just about any tournament where you can strategically navigate your path through the brackets to best suit your tastes. And yes, for the most part it's been tolerated. Nobody called a player throwing a game to avoid playing JD, "the scum of the earth". Nobody felt that Hwasin and Calm should have been thrown in jail for agreeing to let Hwasin win and splitting the prize money half and half. All of a sudden now that it's in the media and people are making a big deal of it, there are people saying these people should be burned at the stake when we all already knew that it was going on to a certain extent anyway. Of course, the illegal gambling part does make it a bit worse, but a fixed game is a fixed game regardless of the reason. The only person the illegal gambling part of it affects are the people who lose money gambling. The whole sportsmanship thing goes out the window when someone throws a game to avoid a certain bracket position too or if someone purposely loses a game to avoid playing his teammate next. The fans are equally cheated in these instances even without money being involved. The truth is there's nothing here to make such a huge deal about. The fans got their games and if they didn't know about this, nobody would have thought twice about it. There's also no guarantee that the games would have been any better or worse had they not been fixed. Personally, I haven't lost anything here and I'm just going to continue to watch. If you're going to complain about the loss of integrity, I would argue that there's no reason to stop watching because of that since due to these events, there's probably more integrity in this game today than there was a year ago anyway. So what's the big deal again? It's not the end of the world, these people aren't the spawn of Satan, and let's all be sensible enough to admit that most of us didn't lose anything here that we didn't already lose in other instances of game throwing that we didn't get all up in arms about... Firstly, of course these players aren't the spawn of Satan and shouldn't be lynched or whatever. Nobody here actually believes that, it's just hyperbole from people venting emotions. Now, about dodging stronger players etc. in brackets...if a match is obviously thrown then that's terrible sportsmanship. If it's just half-hearted play then it's poor sportsmanship and reflects very poorly on the player but it's not the end of the world. It's a blow to that persons integrity. But there's a world of difference between these things and systematically throwing games for money via illegal gambling. The examples you gave, while they do indeed harm the integrity of the sport and player, they are actions made by players who are still trying to win the tournament in question. Throwing games for money is motivated purely by greed; it's an exploitation of the sport to earn money by purposefully and willfully ruining the integrity of the sport. If someone tries to tactically manouver through the OSL brackets or something then at least you know he's still trying to win in the end, so the overall integrity of the sport isn't really harmed that much, it's mostly that player's integrity which is harmed. But when you have systematic match throwing motivated by something other than winning, then the integrity is shaken to the core. The reason sports works and is something we enjoy watching is purely because of the implicit belief that the people playing are doing their best to win. Without that a sport is nothing. That's why throwing matches for money like in this scandal is much, much worse than the examples you made, and why the response is rightfully much harsher. Of course players shouldn't be held to higher moral standards in general, but if they want to be sportsmen then the one thing they absolutely have to make sure of is that they play to win, period. Anything less is unacceptable, not because it's a criminal offense or something, but because otherwise the sport becomes meaningless. They ruin things for the audience and their fellow sportsmen, and for that harsh measures should be taken. | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
On May 20 2010 06:31 san-tokie wrote: What surprises me more than any of this is just how shocked so many people are. Maybe I'm just jaded but this whole thing in my mind and many others really just confirmed our long time suspicions. Ignorance really is bliss~ Oh and now I hate go.go even more for eliminating bisu who is his close friend... sad, just sad. Agreed with this, minus the go.go hate, that kid is still a baller in my eyes. | ||
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
On May 20 2010 05:06 hypercube wrote: Your point about these people becoming criminals anyway is terribly insulting and almost certainly wrong. And no, they are not being held to some higher standard either. Unless you feel betraying your friends for money should be somehow acceptable. As for there being much worse things in the world, duh. Welcome to reality. Look at the average NBA player or NFL player. Do you honestly think these people would be admired or looked up to if they weren't athletes? Do you even believe most of these people would be contributing members of society for the matter? If you do, then I think you must be delusional. Even if you look at the world of gaming, many of the tops stars are certainly nowhere near being role models and more often than not, many of them exhibit questionable character at best. We look up to these people (or should be, anyway) for their talent in the games and sports that they play, not because they've displayed any shred of integrity or moral character. The two traits are not intertwined and having one doesn't mean you have the other. Personally I've no idea why you would feel insulted by me stating my belief most athletes would be considered the dregs of human society if not for their talent. Have you been around many athletes on any level? Are you an athlete yourself? It's just my opinion from my experience around the athletes I've known and my observations of their lifestyles and behavior. Perhaps your life experience is different... The number of athletes I met that I might expect to exhibit any moral judgement whatsoever, I could probably count in my two hands. The number of competitive gamers I've personally met with similar characteristics would probably be even lower than that. As for being held to a higher standard, if I told you that some random person betrayed their friends for money, would you honestly be surprised or shocked? I certainly wouldn't. It happens all the time and it's been happening since the beginning of recorded history. It's a sad occurance, but nothing to be outraged over, particularly if you yourself aren't on the receiving end of it. So what's with the shock here? A bunch of people sold out. What's new? In the end, none of this will really affect most of us anyway. Starcraft will most likely just continue as usual with new player coming up to replace the ones taken down in this mess and Starcraft 2 will come out and so on and so forth. So again, what have you actually lost that you're so mad about? Some naive belief that competitive gamers value sportsmanship in a career with no future over money? Go read the thread about how pro-gamers actually live and what kind of future they actually have for their sacrifice and tell me that you can't understand why they might do something like this. It's easy to judge, isn't it? If only sportsmanship paid the bills... Frankly, if you want to really be mad at someone, it shouldn't be the gamers in this case. They're acting as naturally as I would assume anyone in that situation would. For the gamers that weren't involved (and we'll never know the extent of this), I would admit that they've either got some character or they were just lucky enough to never be approached. | ||
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Gann1
United States1575 Posts
On May 20 2010 02:24 SuperArc wrote: This surely means go.go will never appear in the series again. that's a shame, cause he was the most entertaining guy on the show by far  | ||
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KameZerg
Sweden1769 Posts
Savior figured he was making enough money from the betting sites so he didnt need to stay on top anymore. | ||
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kawatan
288 Posts
On May 20 2010 04:24 JinMaikeul wrote: I wonder what's going to happen to these pro-gamers implicated in this scandal... Obviously there's the issue of prosecution and sentencing, but aside from that, what are they gonig to do with their lives given that their pro-gaming career is essentially over now? I doubt any of them have an education or any prospects whatsoever to get into a university... Pretty sad, if you think about it. they managed to live the dream of playing professional starcraft. i don't think it's that sad and anyway sympathy is the last thing i'd give these scumbags. http://www.wfbrood.com/xingji/hanguoxingji/xingji_49146.html yarnc apologizes for...something. someone please translate. | ||
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Radical
United States481 Posts
On May 20 2010 07:41 kawatan wrote: http://www.wfbrood.com/xingji/hanguoxingji/xingji_49146.html yarnc apologizes for...something. someone please translate. It's on page 45 of this thread. | ||
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pugowar
United States142 Posts
Welcome to reality. Look at the average NBA player or NFL player. Do you honestly think these people would be admired or looked up to if they weren't athletes? Do you even believe most of these people would be contributing members of society for the matter? If you do, then I think you must be delusional. I think you are delusional. You henestly think that people who play sports, if they didn't have that outlet, would ALL be criminals? Some would yes, just like any other professional. So you are saying that every person who plays college football or basketball (or any sport, I guess) who isn't a professiona; player turns to being a criminal. That is being delusional. Even if you look at the world of gaming, many of the tops stars are certainly nowhere near being role models and more often than not, many of them exhibit questionable character at best. We look up to these people (or should be, anyway) for their talent in the games and sports that they play, not because they've displayed any shred of integrity or moral character. The two traits are not intertwined and having one doesn't mean you have the other. No, we thing they should have integrity and moral characters because, as human beings living in a society, we believe that all people should live to this standard. This particular issue effects us because we enjoy the competition of the game, and that enjoyment is lessened by knowing that the outcome may be decided by anything less then the effort of the two players. Personally I've no idea why you would feel insulted by me stating my belief most athletes would be considered the dregs of human society if not for their talent. Have you been around many athletes on any level? Are you an athlete yourself? It's just my opinion from my experience around the athletes I've known and my observations of their lifestyles and behavior. Perhaps your life experience is different... The number of athletes I met that I might expect to exhibit any moral judgement whatsoever, I could probably count in my two hands. The number of competitive gamers I've personally met with similar characteristics would probably be even lower than that. I am outraged by your statement because of the massive stereotyping you are doing, based on your limited judgement. I choice to believe that people are inheritantly good. I have many friends who are athletes who would not act like this. Part of being in a society means not making decisions based soley on personal gain but thinking about how your decisions effect people as a whole. As for being held to a higher standard, if I told you that some random person betrayed their friends for money, would you honestly be surprised or shocked? I certainly wouldn't. It happens all the time and it's been happening since the beginning of recorded history. It's a sad occurance, but nothing to be outraged over, particularly if you yourself aren't on the receiving end of it. So what's with the shock here? A bunch of people sold out. What's new? In the end, none of this will really affect most of us anyway. Starcraft will most likely just continue as usual with new player coming up to replace the ones taken down in this mess and Starcraft 2 will come out and so on and so forth. So again, what have you actually lost that you're so mad about? Some naive belief that competitive gamers value sportsmanship in a career with no future over money? I would not be shocked, but I would be saddened, just like I am about this. Just because somethign happens all the time doesn't make it right and doesn't mean we should ignore it. This DOES effect me because I enjoy watching these games, and I want to continue to do so. Go read the thread about how pro-gamers actually live and what kind of future they actually have for their sacrifice and tell me that you can't understand why they might do something like this. It's easy to judge, isn't it? If only sportsmanship paid the bills... Frankly, if you want to really be mad at someone, it shouldn't be the gamers in this case. They're acting as naturally as I would assume anyone in that situation would. For the gamers that weren't involved (and we'll never know the extent of this), I would admit that they've either got some character or they were just lucky enough to never be approached I ahven't read the thread, but everyone works hard and doesn't live that great. I have a job where I work 9 hours a day and then have to study 2 hours every night. Does that mean I should go out and cheat and lie and steal to get ahead? These players get to make a living playing a game and being adored by thousands of people worldwide. There is a bit of resposibility there - when you are a public person you are held to a higher standard - and you should be. I guess I am just irritated about people trying to be cool and pertend that this doesn't matter or that it's okay to be a criminal. Just because other people do somethign is NOT an excuse to do it yourself. | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On May 20 2010 07:07 JinMaikeul wrote: Welcome to reality. Look at the average NBA player or NFL player. Do you honestly think these people would be admired or looked up to if they weren't athletes? Do you even believe most of these people would be contributing members of society for the matter? If you do, then I think you must be delusional. Not sure about NFL players but to succeed in progaming you need hard work and talent (including intelligence). I think this correlates pretty well with success in other fields. Personally I've no idea why you would feel insulted by me stating my belief most athletes would be considered the dregs of human society if not for their talent. I'm not. I'm saying it's insulting to the players. So again, what have you actually lost that you're so mad about? Some naive belief that competitive gamers value sportsmanship in a career with no future over money? I think people are more disappointed than anything else. I also feel that claiming that most players value money over clean competition (not sure how sportsmanship even comes into this) is more about defending cheating than those who did it. "Everyone does it, so it must be fine." It's exactly the defense some of the cheaters in TSL used. They're acting as naturally as I would assume anyone in that situation would. You seriously don't see what's wrong with this statement? You went from "progamers have a tough life" to "let's not judge them over this" to "everyone would do this given the chance". Obviously I agree with the first part (and like most people on this site, knew about it even before the article came out). I understand why some people don't want to judge, although I mostly disagree. But saying that everyone would do this is wrong, and I don't mean just factually. | ||
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plan3t
Canada75 Posts
This is a big let down. I was really happy when these two made it to the ro16 in the OSL. They were the two guys I was cheering for. I thought they had what it took to make it to the Round of 8 and remember being disappointed in them losing games I was pretty confident that they had a great shot at winning. I guess this may explain way. | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
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