[SC2B] Zerg: The Evolution (or Devolution) - Page 6
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InnerPartySystem
Netherlands49 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On April 21 2010 21:48 Slunk wrote: In PvT that's kinda true for your main army composition to rely on zealot/goon until arbiters arrive, which are pretty high up the techtree, but not nearly as high as broodlords. Also they are much cheaper in tech and resources, especially with zealot/goon being mineral-heavy. What separates goon/zealot from roach hydra is the fact that protoss in SC1 had a choice in the opening. You could open with DTs and get arbiter off two bases, since you have the tech buildings allready (imagine going for mutalisk harrass into two base broodlord/hydra/roach, not viable at all) or you go for reaver harass or you stay defensive to grab a quick third. SC2 zerg on the other hand is much less flexible there are no beautiful transitions (yet). You start making roaches and hydras and you are forced to keep on doing this or you die. Then you have to hit the right timing to transition to broodlords, you have enough units inorder not to die, but get BLs in time to roll your opponent. I am not saying that roach/hydra is overpowered or something, I just dislike the fact that it is the only branch that works in both non-mirrors. arbiters are pretty much the highest tech sc1 p had, same level as carriers. and again, not true. roach-> roach/hydra isnt even the best opening vs t, much less mandatory. roach/hydra isnt the best army composition vs most protoss armies, and the roach:hydra ratio still varies alot according to their ratio when it is. if you just spam roach hydra and attack move you arent gonna win much vs good people. muta/ling is nearly as good as hydra/roach in macro zvz's now, and theres all kinds of gay shit thats viable early game. | ||
Aikin
Austria532 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
In SC1 the only difference you had from a massive hydra blob was generally a few lurkers which came from Hydras anyway, one or two defilers and just a bunch of lings. I've come across players later game with a hydra/roach blob, with lots of lings to support, a few mutalisks for picking off units and a couple of infestors. I would say that's pretty much the same sort of diversity right? It's definately as Diverse as Vanilla SC was, when Zerg didn't have the lurker. | ||
heynes
Germany201 Posts
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Slunk
Germany768 Posts
On April 21 2010 22:05 IdrA wrote: arbiters are pretty much the highest tech sc1 p had, same level as carriers. and again, not true. roach-> roach/hydra isnt even the best opening vs t, much less mandatory. roach/hydra isnt the best army composition vs most protoss armies, and the roach:hydra ratio still varies alot according to their ratio when it is. if you just spam roach hydra and attack move you arent gonna win much vs good people. muta/ling is nearly as good as hydra/roach in macro zvz's now, and theres all kinds of gay shit thats viable early game. Well, if you are so sure about your opinion, then I am looking forward to your games in the HDH, maybe the asian server's zergs are further ahead with the zerg race then us white chobos. Actually I rarely get to see high level games with zerg players, the last being Machine vs Nazgul, where Machine just rushed to hydras and added roaches and spine crawlers later. | ||
Ricjames
Czech Republic1047 Posts
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imperator-xy
Germany1366 Posts
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suejak
Japan545 Posts
On April 21 2010 22:46 Ricjames wrote: I agree that zerg is not finished as many people are saying. Still the main issue with SC2 for me with all races is that the gameplay amount of possibilities is much more limited than in bw. It seems to me that bigger army always wins and the whole thing is about having better/bigger army whereas in broodwar it was more about battle tactics. For instance 3 well placed siege tanks could defend much bigger protoss or zerg army, small amount of lurkers could defend protoss fairly well unless he had mass goon + obs or very good storms. Few HT's with 3 cannons could hold zerg's attack very well. I miss these things in SC2. I thing the gameplay/tactics has less options than in bw. The game is a lot of fun to play, but still missing some very important elements or we will just have to figure these things out. Totally disagree here. There are plenty of defensive strategies available, and lots of cool choke/static defense action. It's entirely possible to defend with fewer units and good static defense. Moreover, I think it's clear that new strategies are coming out all the time. People are still playing the game at a very basic level (i.e., mass units), but you have your innovators and you have your cool new strategies. (Remember when the baneling bust-in was new? When forcefields really started being used?) RE: the OP. I like zerg a lot, but I agree that they are overall kind of boring to play (compared to the other races). I think you completely underestimate the power of zerglings, and I like how they tend to come in much bigger masses now than they did in BW. I also think the ultralisk is undervalued, but the other races do have ways of easily immobilizing it, which isn't cool. (I still think FF should be destructible). | ||
HollOwed
United States17 Posts
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Lollersauce
United States357 Posts
I don't think anyone is asking for Zerg to be overpowered, just that they should be as fun to play as the other races in terms of new toys and unit mechanics. Right now the consensus appears to be that they're not. Edit: oh and let's not forget the general feel of the race in SC2, with the "anal butt-queen" screaming for mineraaaaals and the general consensus being that Zerg sounds are unimpressive at best. | ||
summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
i think a lot of diversity could be created if hydras would deal +armored and roaches +light. make roaches a dedicated zlot/marine killer, maybe even give them splash dmg and let them shoot while burrowed ok that last part was j/k | ||
palanq
United States761 Posts
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suejak
Japan545 Posts
I agree that either the infestor needs a new spell or the zerg need a new caster-like unit (or something with more interesting mechanics). Hive tech probably needs improvement -- but no, ultras are (and can be made more) kickass as support units. (They will probably never be good massed or as the core of an army). Zerglings I've always thought of as being very, very useful for their speed in the mid- to late game. They are good scouts and snipers (esp. of expos). They can also be used to run around tank units and mow down casters, etc. So don't knock the zergling. | ||
mOnion
United States5655 Posts
i love you >_< come back to me this summerrrrrrrrr | ||
Ricjames
Czech Republic1047 Posts
On April 21 2010 23:01 suejak wrote: Totally disagree here. There are plenty of defensive strategies available, and lots of cool choke/static defense action. It's entirely possible to defend with fewer units and good static defense. Moreover, I think it's clear that new strategies are coming out all the time. People are still playing the game at a very basic level (i.e., mass units), but you have your innovators and you have your cool new strategies. (Remember when the baneling bust-in was new? When forcefields really started being used?) RE: the OP. I like zerg a lot, but I agree that they are overall kind of boring to play (compared to the other races). I think you completely underestimate the power of zerglings, and I like how they tend to come in much bigger masses now than they did in BW. I also think the ultralisk is undervalued, but the other races do have ways of easily immobilizing it, which isn't cool. (I still think FF should be destructible). Suejak you might be actually right, but anytime i try some kind of get eco advantage with smaller cost of defence (defend more efficiently than he can attack) i get runover anyways. If i try to do some cute overlord hunt or ecoline drops, it seems not efficient enough and that's why the best tactics choice is still macro big army and a-move | ||
Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On April 21 2010 23:15 summerloud wrote: zerglings should be improved, and so should their counters - hellions already rape them, but archons definitely need improvements i think a lot of diversity could be created if hydras would deal +armored and roaches +light. make roaches a dedicated zlot/marine killer, maybe even give them splash dmg and let them shoot while burrowed ok that last part was j/k Wait, why should zerglings be improved? With upgrades they literally rape any form of Terran infantry already. They just auto surround and kill marines so fast it's ridiculous. | ||
Slunk
Germany768 Posts
On April 21 2010 23:44 Qikz wrote: Wait, why should zerglings be improved? With upgrades they literally rape any form of Terran infantry already. They just auto surround and kill marines so fast it's ridiculous. And by everything you mean marauders? The interaction of zerglings with marines and zeaots are the reason they suck so hard. One zergling does not kill a marine anymore and it takes at least one more zergling to kill one zealot now. The only units zerglings are kinda good against are marauders, immortals and thors. | ||
suejak
Japan545 Posts
Zerglings are still good at tactical play mid- to late-game. AND, yeah, they're good against units that wipe out roaches. | ||
Rodiel
France573 Posts
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