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[SC2B] Zerg: The Evolution (or Devolution) - Page 6

Forum Index > News
321 CommentsPost a Reply
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InnerPartySystem
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands49 Posts
April 21 2010 13:02 GMT
#101
Great post, I really enjoyed reading and I agree with every point you made.
Accept what you cant change and change what you cant accept.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
April 21 2010 13:05 GMT
#102
On April 21 2010 21:48 Slunk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2010 20:43 IdrA wrote:
On April 21 2010 19:05 Slunk wrote:
On April 21 2010 14:18 IdrA wrote:
as for roaches, did goons really have a special defined role in sc1? they were just kind of a powerful all purpose unit. that kind of thing isnt necessarily bad. and really given the burrow harass and regen, and the fact that a tiny range is its limiting factor, the roach is more unique than the equivalent sc1 units.


Yeah, the dragoons are similar to the roach, but if you compare hydra/roach and lets say zealot/dragoon (the combination of the two most basic units of their respective races), the biggest difference is that with zealot/dragoon you cannot win even in the midgame, while roach/hydra are viable from early to late game. The protoss gateway units were all the same in all matchups in SC1, but in order to be effective they had to be supported by spellcasters or other higher tech units (HT/reaver/arbiter/carrier), observers etc. Gateway units by themselves just melted to terran mech and mass hydras. Yes, you can support hydra/roach aswell, but other than broodlords, nothing is really game changing.

thats not true at all, zeal/goon was just fine mid game pvt. yes support units made it stronger and were necessary in some situations, just like infestors banelings and corruptors make hydra roach stronger and are necessary in some situations. to be honest straight zeal/goon pvt was more viable than straight hydra/roach is since the nerf. you let a collosus or templar near hydras and they evaporate and roaches dont tank nearly as well as they did.

and, again, this is mostly being judged on games with at least one bad player. you cant just macro and amove against someone who is as good as you in a standard game.


In PvT that's kinda true for your main army composition to rely on zealot/goon until arbiters arrive, which are pretty high up the techtree, but not nearly as high as broodlords. Also they are much cheaper in tech and resources, especially with zealot/goon being mineral-heavy.
What separates goon/zealot from roach hydra is the fact that protoss in SC1 had a choice in the opening. You could open with DTs and get arbiter off two bases, since you have the tech buildings allready (imagine going for mutalisk harrass into two base broodlord/hydra/roach, not viable at all) or you go for reaver harass or you stay defensive to grab a quick third.
SC2 zerg on the other hand is much less flexible there are no beautiful transitions (yet). You start making roaches and hydras and you are forced to keep on doing this or you die. Then you have to hit the right timing to transition to broodlords, you have enough units inorder not to die, but get BLs in time to roll your opponent.
I am not saying that roach/hydra is overpowered or something, I just dislike the fact that it is the only branch that works in both non-mirrors.

arbiters are pretty much the highest tech sc1 p had, same level as carriers.
and again, not true. roach-> roach/hydra isnt even the best opening vs t, much less mandatory. roach/hydra isnt the best army composition vs most protoss armies, and the roach:hydra ratio still varies alot according to their ratio when it is. if you just spam roach hydra and attack move you arent gonna win much vs good people. muta/ling is nearly as good as hydra/roach in macro zvz's now, and theres all kinds of gay shit thats viable early game.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Aikin
Profile Joined April 2010
Austria532 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-21 13:10:20
April 21 2010 13:09 GMT
#103
Good post. Can agree in a lot of points especialy hive tech. The only reason to go hive for me is the Greater Spire because ultras get countred so easily by lower tier units(hello rauder, immo) and the zergling claw upgrade doesnt seem nearly as strong as in BW and lings die like flies to a lot of stuff anyways. Also no t3 caster?
[A]dmiral Bulldog | Naniwa | [A]lliance
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
April 21 2010 13:24 GMT
#104
I just want to add this point. I played Brood War for a few years and I seriously don't understand how people say the zerg army lacks diversity. It's no less diverse in SC2 than it was in SC1.

In SC1 the only difference you had from a massive hydra blob was generally a few lurkers which came from Hydras anyway, one or two defilers and just a bunch of lings. I've come across players later game with a hydra/roach blob, with lots of lings to support, a few mutalisks for picking off units and a couple of infestors. I would say that's pretty much the same sort of diversity right?

It's definately as Diverse as Vanilla SC was, when Zerg didn't have the lurker.
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
heynes
Profile Joined July 2009
Germany201 Posts
April 21 2010 13:24 GMT
#105
greats posts in here OP and Half were nice to read and i agree with everything said
Slunk
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany768 Posts
April 21 2010 13:37 GMT
#106
On April 21 2010 22:05 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2010 21:48 Slunk wrote:
On April 21 2010 20:43 IdrA wrote:
On April 21 2010 19:05 Slunk wrote:
On April 21 2010 14:18 IdrA wrote:
as for roaches, did goons really have a special defined role in sc1? they were just kind of a powerful all purpose unit. that kind of thing isnt necessarily bad. and really given the burrow harass and regen, and the fact that a tiny range is its limiting factor, the roach is more unique than the equivalent sc1 units.


Yeah, the dragoons are similar to the roach, but if you compare hydra/roach and lets say zealot/dragoon (the combination of the two most basic units of their respective races), the biggest difference is that with zealot/dragoon you cannot win even in the midgame, while roach/hydra are viable from early to late game. The protoss gateway units were all the same in all matchups in SC1, but in order to be effective they had to be supported by spellcasters or other higher tech units (HT/reaver/arbiter/carrier), observers etc. Gateway units by themselves just melted to terran mech and mass hydras. Yes, you can support hydra/roach aswell, but other than broodlords, nothing is really game changing.

thats not true at all, zeal/goon was just fine mid game pvt. yes support units made it stronger and were necessary in some situations, just like infestors banelings and corruptors make hydra roach stronger and are necessary in some situations. to be honest straight zeal/goon pvt was more viable than straight hydra/roach is since the nerf. you let a collosus or templar near hydras and they evaporate and roaches dont tank nearly as well as they did.

and, again, this is mostly being judged on games with at least one bad player. you cant just macro and amove against someone who is as good as you in a standard game.


In PvT that's kinda true for your main army composition to rely on zealot/goon until arbiters arrive, which are pretty high up the techtree, but not nearly as high as broodlords. Also they are much cheaper in tech and resources, especially with zealot/goon being mineral-heavy.
What separates goon/zealot from roach hydra is the fact that protoss in SC1 had a choice in the opening. You could open with DTs and get arbiter off two bases, since you have the tech buildings allready (imagine going for mutalisk harrass into two base broodlord/hydra/roach, not viable at all) or you go for reaver harass or you stay defensive to grab a quick third.
SC2 zerg on the other hand is much less flexible there are no beautiful transitions (yet). You start making roaches and hydras and you are forced to keep on doing this or you die. Then you have to hit the right timing to transition to broodlords, you have enough units inorder not to die, but get BLs in time to roll your opponent.
I am not saying that roach/hydra is overpowered or something, I just dislike the fact that it is the only branch that works in both non-mirrors.

arbiters are pretty much the highest tech sc1 p had, same level as carriers.
and again, not true. roach-> roach/hydra isnt even the best opening vs t, much less mandatory. roach/hydra isnt the best army composition vs most protoss armies, and the roach:hydra ratio still varies alot according to their ratio when it is. if you just spam roach hydra and attack move you arent gonna win much vs good people. muta/ling is nearly as good as hydra/roach in macro zvz's now, and theres all kinds of gay shit thats viable early game.


Well, if you are so sure about your opinion, then I am looking forward to your games in the HDH, maybe the asian server's zergs are further ahead with the zerg race then us white chobos.
Actually I rarely get to see high level games with zerg players, the last being Machine vs Nazgul, where Machine just rushed to hydras and added roaches and spine crawlers later.
Ricjames
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Czech Republic1047 Posts
April 21 2010 13:46 GMT
#107
I agree that zerg is not finished as many people are saying. Still the main issue with SC2 for me with all races is that the gameplay amount of possibilities is much more limited than in bw. It seems to me that bigger army always wins and the whole thing is about having better/bigger army whereas in broodwar it was more about battle tactics. For instance 3 well placed siege tanks could defend much bigger protoss or zerg army, small amount of lurkers could defend protoss fairly well unless he had mass goon + obs or very good storms. Few HT's with 3 cannons could hold zerg's attack very well. I miss these things in SC2. I thing the gameplay/tactics has less options than in bw. The game is a lot of fun to play, but still missing some very important elements or we will just have to figure these things out.
Brood War is the best RTS that has ever been created.
imperator-xy
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Germany1377 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-21 14:01:52
April 21 2010 14:01 GMT
#108
infestors should get a really strong spell on t3, possibly a spell which you can combine with ultras so that they become a bit more useful
suejak
Profile Joined March 2010
Japan545 Posts
April 21 2010 14:01 GMT
#109
On April 21 2010 22:46 Ricjames wrote:
I agree that zerg is not finished as many people are saying. Still the main issue with SC2 for me with all races is that the gameplay amount of possibilities is much more limited than in bw. It seems to me that bigger army always wins and the whole thing is about having better/bigger army whereas in broodwar it was more about battle tactics. For instance 3 well placed siege tanks could defend much bigger protoss or zerg army, small amount of lurkers could defend protoss fairly well unless he had mass goon + obs or very good storms. Few HT's with 3 cannons could hold zerg's attack very well. I miss these things in SC2. I thing the gameplay/tactics has less options than in bw. The game is a lot of fun to play, but still missing some very important elements or we will just have to figure these things out.

Totally disagree here. There are plenty of defensive strategies available, and lots of cool choke/static defense action. It's entirely possible to defend with fewer units and good static defense.

Moreover, I think it's clear that new strategies are coming out all the time. People are still playing the game at a very basic level (i.e., mass units), but you have your innovators and you have your cool new strategies. (Remember when the baneling bust-in was new? When forcefields really started being used?)

RE: the OP. I like zerg a lot, but I agree that they are overall kind of boring to play (compared to the other races). I think you completely underestimate the power of zerglings, and I like how they tend to come in much bigger masses now than they did in BW.

I also think the ultralisk is undervalued, but the other races do have ways of easily immobilizing it, which isn't cool. (I still think FF should be destructible).
Are you human?
HollOwed
Profile Joined April 2010
United States17 Posts
April 21 2010 14:02 GMT
#110
I like the new units. But i miss Defiler and Lurker so much that i would trade them for any other new units
Lollersauce
Profile Joined April 2010
United States357 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-21 14:24:11
April 21 2010 14:13 GMT
#111
No amount of metagame evolution is going to make up for the fact that infestors don't have a game changing spell remotely close to darkswarm or plaguuu. No amount of metagame evolution is going to make up for the fact that Hive tech is bleh because the only really interesting option is broodlords which take a greater spire (which takes forever and a day to upgrade), and Ultras won't be used (probably not even with a buff) simply because the ranged attacks upgrade path is a lot more convenient with zerglings not really being able to kill anything past a few minutes into the game, and roach/hydra being so efficient. No amount of metagame evolution is going to make up for the fact that Zerg is short a unit or two compared to Terran or Toss and feels less diverse for this very obvious reason.

I don't think anyone is asking for Zerg to be overpowered, just that they should be as fun to play as the other races in terms of new toys and unit mechanics. Right now the consensus appears to be that they're not.

Edit: oh and let's not forget the general feel of the race in SC2, with the "anal butt-queen" screaming for mineraaaaals and the general consensus being that Zerg sounds are unimpressive at best.
summerloud
Profile Joined March 2010
Austria1201 Posts
April 21 2010 14:15 GMT
#112
zerglings should be improved, and so should their counters - hellions already rape them, but archons definitely need improvements

i think a lot of diversity could be created if hydras would deal +armored and roaches +light. make roaches a dedicated zlot/marine killer, maybe even give them splash dmg and let them shoot while burrowed

ok that last part was j/k
palanq
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States761 Posts
April 21 2010 14:29 GMT
#113
great post. I never thought about it, but having more viable uses for zerglings in the mid- to late-game would definitely make things more interesting for zerg unit compositions.
time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana
suejak
Profile Joined March 2010
Japan545 Posts
April 21 2010 14:32 GMT
#114
I hope that whole second paragraph was j/k. =D

I agree that either the infestor needs a new spell or the zerg need a new caster-like unit (or something with more interesting mechanics). Hive tech probably needs improvement -- but no, ultras are (and can be made more) kickass as support units. (They will probably never be good massed or as the core of an army).

Zerglings I've always thought of as being very, very useful for their speed in the mid- to late game. They are good scouts and snipers (esp. of expos). They can also be used to run around tank units and mow down casters, etc. So don't knock the zergling.
Are you human?
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
April 21 2010 14:36 GMT
#115
THIS IS AMAZING!

i love you >_< come back to me this summerrrrrrrrr
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
Ricjames
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Czech Republic1047 Posts
April 21 2010 14:43 GMT
#116
On April 21 2010 23:01 suejak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2010 22:46 Ricjames wrote:
I agree that zerg is not finished as many people are saying. Still the main issue with SC2 for me with all races is that the gameplay amount of possibilities is much more limited than in bw. It seems to me that bigger army always wins and the whole thing is about having better/bigger army whereas in broodwar it was more about battle tactics. For instance 3 well placed siege tanks could defend much bigger protoss or zerg army, small amount of lurkers could defend protoss fairly well unless he had mass goon + obs or very good storms. Few HT's with 3 cannons could hold zerg's attack very well. I miss these things in SC2. I thing the gameplay/tactics has less options than in bw. The game is a lot of fun to play, but still missing some very important elements or we will just have to figure these things out.

Totally disagree here. There are plenty of defensive strategies available, and lots of cool choke/static defense action. It's entirely possible to defend with fewer units and good static defense.

Moreover, I think it's clear that new strategies are coming out all the time. People are still playing the game at a very basic level (i.e., mass units), but you have your innovators and you have your cool new strategies. (Remember when the baneling bust-in was new? When forcefields really started being used?)

RE: the OP. I like zerg a lot, but I agree that they are overall kind of boring to play (compared to the other races). I think you completely underestimate the power of zerglings, and I like how they tend to come in much bigger masses now than they did in BW.

I also think the ultralisk is undervalued, but the other races do have ways of easily immobilizing it, which isn't cool. (I still think FF should be destructible).


Suejak you might be actually right, but anytime i try some kind of get eco advantage with smaller cost of defence (defend more efficiently than he can attack) i get runover anyways. If i try to do some cute overlord hunt or ecoline drops, it seems not efficient enough and that's why the best tactics choice is still macro big army and a-move
Brood War is the best RTS that has ever been created.
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
April 21 2010 14:44 GMT
#117
On April 21 2010 23:15 summerloud wrote:
zerglings should be improved, and so should their counters - hellions already rape them, but archons definitely need improvements

i think a lot of diversity could be created if hydras would deal +armored and roaches +light. make roaches a dedicated zlot/marine killer, maybe even give them splash dmg and let them shoot while burrowed

ok that last part was j/k


Wait, why should zerglings be improved? With upgrades they literally rape any form of Terran infantry already. They just auto surround and kill marines so fast it's ridiculous.
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
Slunk
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany768 Posts
April 21 2010 14:51 GMT
#118
On April 21 2010 23:44 Qikz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2010 23:15 summerloud wrote:
zerglings should be improved, and so should their counters - hellions already rape them, but archons definitely need improvements

i think a lot of diversity could be created if hydras would deal +armored and roaches +light. make roaches a dedicated zlot/marine killer, maybe even give them splash dmg and let them shoot while burrowed

ok that last part was j/k


Wait, why should zerglings be improved? With upgrades they literally rape any form of Terran infantry already. They just auto surround and kill marines so fast it's ridiculous.


And by everything you mean marauders?
The interaction of zerglings with marines and zeaots are the reason they suck so hard. One zergling does not kill a marine anymore and it takes at least one more zergling to kill one zealot now. The only units zerglings are kinda good against are marauders, immortals and thors.
suejak
Profile Joined March 2010
Japan545 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-21 14:54:01
April 21 2010 14:53 GMT
#119
So don't use zerglings against mass marines, lol. Seems so simple to me.

Zerglings are still good at tactical play mid- to late-game. AND, yeah, they're good against units that wipe out roaches.
Are you human?
Rodiel
Profile Joined August 2006
France573 Posts
April 21 2010 15:03 GMT
#120
interresting post thx u.
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