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Bandwagon Broodwar
October 19th, 2009 15:02 GMT
Banner by Kennigit and Fanboys Everywhere
By now you've probably read the first few paragraphs of Backseat Broodwar. There seems to be a view that the masses don't "respect" old gamers and are just a giant bandwagon of front running fans. This seems like the same tired elitist argument that pervades every sport: "It used to be better back when..." No. It sucked back then. It sucked when the NBA had all white guys and people "played as a team." It sucked when football teams only ran the ball. It sucked when MLB players were all skinny and never hit home runs (yes, I went there). And it sucked when Brood War players could only control one group of units and had 2000/1000 in the bank after microing a group of marines for two minutes (hi BoxeR). It sucked when Brood War players had to specifically design a strategy around not making a lot of workers because they were just that bad at macro (hi YellOw).
I have no idea who this guy is but I know he's better than Boxer. Image by NeverGG
Everyone is a bandwagon fan. Everyone. You like watching players play because they are good. Sure there are some oddballs here and there that you like for style or whatever, but the bottom line is, no matter how many ridiculous strategies a player attempts, he will get no fans and no recognition unless he wins with them. Are you really going to tell me that I can't like Flash because other people like him? I'm the biggest Ma Jae Yoon fan there is. I stick by him through thick and thin. Why am I a fan? Because he was ridiculously good. I remember him being good. Now, he's bad. I don't deny that. I still love Savior, but I also like Effort now. That doesn't mean I disrespect MJY -- it just means I'm a realist. I can applaud Savior for what he did for CJ, for himself, for the Zerg race -- but I can still point out that it is insane to send him out for an Ace Match when you have the Second Coming sitting on your bench. It seems like the elitists think that just because they liked a guy first or they know about some ancient history that they deserve to cheer for players more.
Is there really anything wrong with Joe Nooblet never watching Brood War before and instantly loving Jaedong? Does he really have to know that Jaedong lost to Rock 1-3 in his first Bo5 ZvP? Does having that knowledge or being a fan of JD two years back somehow entitle him to cheer more?Look at Michael Jordan. 100% of his fans are bandwagon fans. And those guys who cheered against him? Also bandwagon fans. Every single SK Telecom fan? Bandwagon fan. There's nothing wrong with that.
e-Stars Heritage League was like taking a time machine back to when players sucked.
Is it my fault I want to watch high level games? I went back the other day and watched Savior versus Nal_rA -- one of the most entertaining rivalries there was -- and it was sad. Really, it was. I'm all for appreciating what people can do at the peak of their abilities, but watching these old guys play against each other is like watching the WNBA or women's soccer. I understand that they're the best relative to their competition. I just don't care. I want to see the game played at its highest level, not some grandpa toss who can't figure out how to attack lurkers. Nal_rA, I get that you invented FE. That's great and all, but Bisu is the one that invented FE. I'm sure some fat white guy on a step ladder invented dunking, but Lebron James invented dunking.
Are we really flaming fanboys for actually liking the player they cheer for? Fanboys are spirited. Fanboys get angry. Fanboys are awesome. I'm CJ fanboy. I admit it. When it comes to all things CJ, I am irrationally and irrevocably pro-CJ. I think they are the best team ever. I go into every round of Proleague thinking "This is our year!!" I wouldn't trade Effort for anyone. No, I wouldn't trade him for Jaedong. I'm an Effort fanboy. What do you expect me to do? Find a player who sucks and cheer for him? Progaming is my hobby, I watch in my spare time. Since I'm not a masochist, I'll enjoy when my guys win, thank you very much. And I'm going to go into CJ threads and post "FFFFFFFF YEAH" every time Skyhigh cheeses Jaedong, or post "wow this dude sucks" every time Effort rolls over a crappy washed up Air Force player, no matter how many times he won a starleague in 2003. That's not disrespecting him. Because sucking now doesn't change his win back then, and winning then doesn't affect us recognizing he sucks today.
I'm a fanboy and I fully enjoyed this moment.
CJ is going to win proleague this year. There's still room -- hop on.
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BackHo is still the best player on the planet in my book.
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lol hotbid this was such a good read
it's like a staff flame war
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On October 20 2009 00:02 Hot_Bid wrote:
CJ is going to win proleague this year. There's still room -- hop on.
I hope so ... for the sake of my Fantasy team :D
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Seems to me like this should be a blog and not front page news, but you're the admin...
Totally agree about the whole respect thing, sure the greats used to be good relative to the competition but now they suck, plain and simple. Sure, it's great when the win, but don't get your knickers in a knot when someone says they suck, cos that's just the truth.
BTW This is wemade's season fo sho
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On October 20 2009 00:02 Hot_Bid wrote:
I have no idea who this guy is but I know he's better than Boxer.
I loved this.
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Thank you for this, Hot_Bid.
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Great read Hot_Bid! I couldn't agree more..
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But if you didn't like a player before a certain date, it means you're not a real fan and can't enjoy or comprehend how good he is. You don't understand him!
There is no doubt that players today are better than the players from year ago and the mid and late game are much better, but I do prefer the old school style early games, where there was more action. Too many games these days feel like 5-7 minutes no rush, but large part of that is probably due to map design.
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No other player will ever take the place that Savior has in my heart. I won't ever let any new player get that much of my love. The pain when the stars finally fall is just too great =(
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hit the nail on the head, great stuff hb
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There's also that fanboy-esque bandwagon attitude towards the bad players and it's not out of respect but rather because NO ONE LIKES him. Why would anyone want to be masochistic like that?
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CJ is going to win proleague this year.
nope, Wemade is going to win it ofc
anyway this was a good read
+ Show Spoiler +BTW This is wemade's season fo sho whats up ? 
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A sensible and reasonable article, this is not allowed here!
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flame war? half staff and old fans are getting redish now!
i like CJ and new players, but the heroes of the past deserve RESPECT =)
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11/10, had a great read and he is really about that stuff
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
great read, as always! im exactly this Joe Nooblet guy ;p
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Fucking amazing read.
Seriously, hot_bid, this is one of your finest.
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He tells it how it is.
Very fun read
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CJ is going to win proleague this year.
Hell yeah
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great read, this article's a nice F U to the assorted idiots out there
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Braavos36374 Posts
On October 20 2009 00:42 d_so wrote:
great read, this article's a nice F U to the assorted idiots out there
Uh, no it's not?
Please explain to me exactly how this is an "F U" to anyone?
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Great article, and a much needed deathblow to the maudlin nonsense that riptide vomits up on a regular basis.
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hehe
That's what i thought when i was watching Nada vs Savior with the livecast last week. The play was just BAD compared to nowadays and when your used to nowadays skill level some fights just go wrong... A Terran isn't supposed to lose XX Marines multiple times in a game or series to 2-3 Lurkers because he isn't paying attention... Or losing Vessels like it's a good tradeoff for 2 Scourge :p.
After 1.5 games i just lost interest and forget that the stream was running in the background all together. If you weren't here when the greats were great, you'll never "get it". I don't get it... I know they were great, but i never will now "how" great they really were.
I also don't know how it felt to board an airplane when it still was something special and i never will.
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On October 20 2009 00:25 VictorW wrote:
But if you didn't like a player before a certain date, it means you're not a real fan and can't enjoy or comprehend how good he is. You don't understand him!
Oh look, the "real fan" argument. I'm not allowed to like Flash any more because I totally missed his first tournament wins? I'm not an fbh fan because I didn't get to see his humiliation of sAviOr when it happened? I'm not a Stork fan because the first time I watched him play was at Incruit finals?
If you were trolling, congratulations: you succeeded. Dear lord.
EDIT: I suppose I should also say that Hot Bid wrote an awesome article, but that he's totally wrong and KHAN will return to take it all be the end of the year. You heard it here... but probably not first.
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Canada9720 Posts
On October 20 2009 00:46 Japakazol wrote:
Great article, and a much needed deathblow to the maudlin nonsense that riptide vomits up on a regular basis.
lol?
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Good read. I could probably be counted as 'jumping on the bandwagon' for only just getting into starcraft but is that my fault?
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Braavos36374 Posts
On October 20 2009 00:46 Japakazol wrote:
Great article, and a much needed deathblow to the maudlin nonsense that riptide vomits up on a regular basis.
I think riptide was mostly right in his article, except for the part about bandwagoning being bad. His articles are great and the JD-Effort PL preview was the best intro I've ever read. I don't know what you mean by my article being a "deathblow" to anything, and I don't appreciate you insulting a fellow writer that I respect.
It's great you liked my article but please stfu.
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On October 20 2009 00:50 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 00:46 Japakazol wrote:
Great article, and a much needed deathblow to the maudlin nonsense that riptide vomits up on a regular basis. I think riptide was mostly right in his article, except for the part about bandwagoning being bad. His articles are great and the JD-Effort PL preview was the best intro I've ever read. I don't know what you mean by my article being a "deathblow" to anything, and I don't appreciate you insulting a fellow writer that I respect. It's great you liked my article but please stfu.
Now, a vent. Dear fanboys comparing Jaedong/Bisu/Flash mechanics to those of The Emperor, The Dreamer and The Maestro - stop it. Nothing screams I'M A TOOL WITH ABSOLUTELY NO GRASP OF PROGAMING than a post that even begins to compare players of two eras, especially in terms of mechanics. Judging any of the old pros based on how they play now (or how other people play now) is like comparing the mars rover to Apollo 11. BUT BUT BUT THE MARS ROVER IS THE MOST ADVANCED...
Yeah, nobody cares, noob.
Seems like the first part of your article--"no it wasnt better in the old days, etc."-- is a direct rebuttal to this excerpt (which I'm guessing riptide wrote but it could have been plexa I suppose).
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Braavos36374 Posts
On October 20 2009 00:54 Japakazol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 00:50 Hot_Bid wrote:On October 20 2009 00:46 Japakazol wrote:
Great article, and a much needed deathblow to the maudlin nonsense that riptide vomits up on a regular basis. I think riptide was mostly right in his article, except for the part about bandwagoning being bad. His articles are great and the JD-Effort PL preview was the best intro I've ever read. I don't know what you mean by my article being a "deathblow" to anything, and I don't appreciate you insulting a fellow writer that I respect. It's great you liked my article but please stfu. Show nested quote +Now, a vent. Dear fanboys comparing Jaedong/Bisu/Flash mechanics to those of The Emperor, The Dreamer and The Maestro - stop it. Nothing screams I'M A TOOL WITH ABSOLUTELY NO GRASP OF PROGAMING than a post that even begins to compare players of two eras, especially in terms of mechanics. Judging any of the old pros based on how they play now (or how other people play now) is like comparing the mars rover to Apollo 11. BUT BUT BUT THE MARS ROVER IS THE MOST ADVANCED...
Yeah, nobody cares, noob. Seems like the first part of your article--"no it wasnt better in the old days, etc."-- is a direct rebuttal to this excerpt (which I'm guessing riptide wrote but it could have been plexa I suppose).
Yes, and disagreeing civilly with another writer (who I am friends with and I obviously respect) is the same as dealing a "deathblow" and calling his writing "vomit" right? Don't use my article as an excuse to post your ignorant and hateful opinions. There are ways to disagree without flaming like an idiot.
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Hot_Bid comes out true asshole.
EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I love it.
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Lol I was like "wtf" when I first started reading this, but it's actually all true ...
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On October 20 2009 00:55 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 00:54 Japakazol wrote:On October 20 2009 00:50 Hot_Bid wrote:On October 20 2009 00:46 Japakazol wrote:
Great article, and a much needed deathblow to the maudlin nonsense that riptide vomits up on a regular basis. I think riptide was mostly right in his article, except for the part about bandwagoning being bad. His articles are great and the JD-Effort PL preview was the best intro I've ever read. I don't know what you mean by my article being a "deathblow" to anything, and I don't appreciate you insulting a fellow writer that I respect. It's great you liked my article but please stfu. Now, a vent. Dear fanboys comparing Jaedong/Bisu/Flash mechanics to those of The Emperor, The Dreamer and The Maestro - stop it. Nothing screams I'M A TOOL WITH ABSOLUTELY NO GRASP OF PROGAMING than a post that even begins to compare players of two eras, especially in terms of mechanics. Judging any of the old pros based on how they play now (or how other people play now) is like comparing the mars rover to Apollo 11. BUT BUT BUT THE MARS ROVER IS THE MOST ADVANCED...
Yeah, nobody cares, noob. Seems like the first part of your article--"no it wasnt better in the old days, etc."-- is a direct rebuttal to this excerpt (which I'm guessing riptide wrote but it could have been plexa I suppose). Yes, and disagreeing civilly with another writer (who I am friends with and I obviously respect) is the same as dealing a "deathblow" and calling his writing "vomit" right? Don't use my article as an excuse to post your ignorant and hateful opinions. There are ways to disagree without flaming like an idiot.
Hahaha easy now. A "deathblow" is simply a way of saying that I think your arguments knock his down definitively. And I didn't allege that you called his writing vomit; that's all me. And stop acting like I just committed a hate crime by criticizing bad writing. It's gonna be okay. It's an article about starcraft.
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How can anyone take both this article and the riplexa one 100% seriously and get so worked up over it? Some of the comments here and in the other thread are just sick, lol.
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Braavos36374 Posts
On October 20 2009 00:58 Japakazol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 00:55 Hot_Bid wrote:On October 20 2009 00:54 Japakazol wrote:On October 20 2009 00:50 Hot_Bid wrote:On October 20 2009 00:46 Japakazol wrote:
Great article, and a much needed deathblow to the maudlin nonsense that riptide vomits up on a regular basis. I think riptide was mostly right in his article, except for the part about bandwagoning being bad. His articles are great and the JD-Effort PL preview was the best intro I've ever read. I don't know what you mean by my article being a "deathblow" to anything, and I don't appreciate you insulting a fellow writer that I respect. It's great you liked my article but please stfu. Now, a vent. Dear fanboys comparing Jaedong/Bisu/Flash mechanics to those of The Emperor, The Dreamer and The Maestro - stop it. Nothing screams I'M A TOOL WITH ABSOLUTELY NO GRASP OF PROGAMING than a post that even begins to compare players of two eras, especially in terms of mechanics. Judging any of the old pros based on how they play now (or how other people play now) is like comparing the mars rover to Apollo 11. BUT BUT BUT THE MARS ROVER IS THE MOST ADVANCED...
Yeah, nobody cares, noob. Seems like the first part of your article--"no it wasnt better in the old days, etc."-- is a direct rebuttal to this excerpt (which I'm guessing riptide wrote but it could have been plexa I suppose). Yes, and disagreeing civilly with another writer (who I am friends with and I obviously respect) is the same as dealing a "deathblow" and calling his writing "vomit" right? Don't use my article as an excuse to post your ignorant and hateful opinions. There are ways to disagree without flaming like an idiot. Hahaha easy now. A "deathblow" is simply a way of saying that I think your arguments knock his down definitively. And I didn't allege that you called his writing vomit; that's all me. And stop acting like I just committed a hate crime by criticizing bad writing. It's gonna be okay. It's an article about starcraft.
Ah yes, it's "just about starcraft" yet you are somehow worked up enough about it to call writers tools, call writing "vomit" and "nonsense." Because that sort of language and discussion is "taking it easy" and treating it lightly because its an article about StarCraft. Take your own advice.
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Braavos36374 Posts
On October 20 2009 01:02 Matoo- wrote:
How can anyone take both this article and the riplexa one 100% seriously and get so worked up over it? Some of the comments here and in the other thread are just sick, lol.
Ding ding ding.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
samsung? SAMSUNG?!?!??! oh dear lord you kids are going to be sad. ohhhhh is there a more loathsome team
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I think you're misunderstanding what's a "bandwagon" fan. The term has more to do with changing your rooting interest based on how a team plays, rather than being a fan of a good team. It's fine to be a T1 fan and not be considered a bandwagoner. But you're a bandwagon fan if you rooted for Oz in 07, Khan in 08, and T1 in 09. That's just pointless.
Anyway, kind of disagree that winning matters the most when it comes to player fandom. I started liking Stork back when he was slumping last year. And I continued to watch FBH fail time after time in TvP. I started rooting for estro when Artosis began to talk about them on SCForAll. And rooted for them continuously despite them usually losing their matches.
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That article is basically exactly my opinion on that matter. I Really liked it (kinda self-explanatory).
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I became a Bisu fan when I first started watching sc and I saw him own Savior on blitz-X and I didn't even realize it was some big game
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On October 20 2009 01:02 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 00:58 Japakazol wrote:On October 20 2009 00:55 Hot_Bid wrote:On October 20 2009 00:54 Japakazol wrote:On October 20 2009 00:50 Hot_Bid wrote:On October 20 2009 00:46 Japakazol wrote:
Great article, and a much needed deathblow to the maudlin nonsense that riptide vomits up on a regular basis. I think riptide was mostly right in his article, except for the part about bandwagoning being bad. His articles are great and the JD-Effort PL preview was the best intro I've ever read. I don't know what you mean by my article being a "deathblow" to anything, and I don't appreciate you insulting a fellow writer that I respect. It's great you liked my article but please stfu. Now, a vent. Dear fanboys comparing Jaedong/Bisu/Flash mechanics to those of The Emperor, The Dreamer and The Maestro - stop it. Nothing screams I'M A TOOL WITH ABSOLUTELY NO GRASP OF PROGAMING than a post that even begins to compare players of two eras, especially in terms of mechanics. Judging any of the old pros based on how they play now (or how other people play now) is like comparing the mars rover to Apollo 11. BUT BUT BUT THE MARS ROVER IS THE MOST ADVANCED...
Yeah, nobody cares, noob. Seems like the first part of your article--"no it wasnt better in the old days, etc."-- is a direct rebuttal to this excerpt (which I'm guessing riptide wrote but it could have been plexa I suppose). Yes, and disagreeing civilly with another writer (who I am friends with and I obviously respect) is the same as dealing a "deathblow" and calling his writing "vomit" right? Don't use my article as an excuse to post your ignorant and hateful opinions. There are ways to disagree without flaming like an idiot. Hahaha easy now. A "deathblow" is simply a way of saying that I think your arguments knock his down definitively. And I didn't allege that you called his writing vomit; that's all me. And stop acting like I just committed a hate crime by criticizing bad writing. It's gonna be okay. It's an article about starcraft. Ah yes, it's "just about starcraft" yet you are somehow worked up enough about it to call writers tools, call writing "vomit" and "nonsense." Because that sort of language and discussion is "taking it easy" and treating it lightly because its an article about StarCraft. Take your own advice.
You're right, hot_bid. I forgot that one day, my grandchildren's grandchildren will gather around and hear stories about us. We, who lived in the Age of Boxer, Emperor of Terran. They will speak of us in hushed tones, we proud few who wrote articles about those shining figures of destiny who spent 10-12 hours a day playing starcraft. History will remember them, and will remember us for our part in their glory. I am sorry that I did not use proper tones of respect and passion when describing these events.
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hahahah amazing readddd
bandwagon4life
FLASH KILL EVERYONE
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Good read, I'm gonna take it as more humorous than serious though, assuming that is what you were aiming for.
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I love ad hominem spewing idiots.
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Braavos36374 Posts
On October 20 2009 01:08 Japakazol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 01:02 Hot_Bid wrote:On October 20 2009 00:58 Japakazol wrote:On October 20 2009 00:55 Hot_Bid wrote:On October 20 2009 00:54 Japakazol wrote:On October 20 2009 00:50 Hot_Bid wrote:On October 20 2009 00:46 Japakazol wrote:
Great article, and a much needed deathblow to the maudlin nonsense that riptide vomits up on a regular basis. I think riptide was mostly right in his article, except for the part about bandwagoning being bad. His articles are great and the JD-Effort PL preview was the best intro I've ever read. I don't know what you mean by my article being a "deathblow" to anything, and I don't appreciate you insulting a fellow writer that I respect. It's great you liked my article but please stfu. Now, a vent. Dear fanboys comparing Jaedong/Bisu/Flash mechanics to those of The Emperor, The Dreamer and The Maestro - stop it. Nothing screams I'M A TOOL WITH ABSOLUTELY NO GRASP OF PROGAMING than a post that even begins to compare players of two eras, especially in terms of mechanics. Judging any of the old pros based on how they play now (or how other people play now) is like comparing the mars rover to Apollo 11. BUT BUT BUT THE MARS ROVER IS THE MOST ADVANCED...
Yeah, nobody cares, noob. Seems like the first part of your article--"no it wasnt better in the old days, etc."-- is a direct rebuttal to this excerpt (which I'm guessing riptide wrote but it could have been plexa I suppose). Yes, and disagreeing civilly with another writer (who I am friends with and I obviously respect) is the same as dealing a "deathblow" and calling his writing "vomit" right? Don't use my article as an excuse to post your ignorant and hateful opinions. There are ways to disagree without flaming like an idiot. Hahaha easy now. A "deathblow" is simply a way of saying that I think your arguments knock his down definitively. And I didn't allege that you called his writing vomit; that's all me. And stop acting like I just committed a hate crime by criticizing bad writing. It's gonna be okay. It's an article about starcraft. Ah yes, it's "just about starcraft" yet you are somehow worked up enough about it to call writers tools, call writing "vomit" and "nonsense." Because that sort of language and discussion is "taking it easy" and treating it lightly because its an article about StarCraft. Take your own advice. You're right, hot_bid. I forgot that one day, my grandchildren's grandchildren will gather around and hear stories about us. We, who lived in the Age of Boxer, Emperor of Terran. They will speak of us in hushed tones, we proud few who wrote articles about those shining figures of destiny who spent 10-12 hours a day playing starcraft. History will remember them, and will remember us for our part in their glory. I am sorry that I did not use proper tones of respect and passion when describing these events.
It's okay, I forgive you, I know that Samsung fans in general have trouble seeing reality for how it is.
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Braavos36374 Posts
On October 20 2009 01:10 eMbrace wrote:
Good read, I'm gonna take it as more humorous than serious though, assuming that is what you were aiming for.
Thanks.
I guess now that you agree with parts of an article, it magically becomes not "petty," it suddenly "deserves" to be on the front page, and people shouldn't "just ignore it."
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On October 20 2009 01:11 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 01:08 Japakazol wrote:On October 20 2009 01:02 Hot_Bid wrote:On October 20 2009 00:58 Japakazol wrote:On October 20 2009 00:55 Hot_Bid wrote:On October 20 2009 00:54 Japakazol wrote:On October 20 2009 00:50 Hot_Bid wrote:On October 20 2009 00:46 Japakazol wrote:
Great article, and a much needed deathblow to the maudlin nonsense that riptide vomits up on a regular basis. I think riptide was mostly right in his article, except for the part about bandwagoning being bad. His articles are great and the JD-Effort PL preview was the best intro I've ever read. I don't know what you mean by my article being a "deathblow" to anything, and I don't appreciate you insulting a fellow writer that I respect. It's great you liked my article but please stfu. Now, a vent. Dear fanboys comparing Jaedong/Bisu/Flash mechanics to those of The Emperor, The Dreamer and The Maestro - stop it. Nothing screams I'M A TOOL WITH ABSOLUTELY NO GRASP OF PROGAMING than a post that even begins to compare players of two eras, especially in terms of mechanics. Judging any of the old pros based on how they play now (or how other people play now) is like comparing the mars rover to Apollo 11. BUT BUT BUT THE MARS ROVER IS THE MOST ADVANCED...
Yeah, nobody cares, noob. Seems like the first part of your article--"no it wasnt better in the old days, etc."-- is a direct rebuttal to this excerpt (which I'm guessing riptide wrote but it could have been plexa I suppose). Yes, and disagreeing civilly with another writer (who I am friends with and I obviously respect) is the same as dealing a "deathblow" and calling his writing "vomit" right? Don't use my article as an excuse to post your ignorant and hateful opinions. There are ways to disagree without flaming like an idiot. Hahaha easy now. A "deathblow" is simply a way of saying that I think your arguments knock his down definitively. And I didn't allege that you called his writing vomit; that's all me. And stop acting like I just committed a hate crime by criticizing bad writing. It's gonna be okay. It's an article about starcraft. Ah yes, it's "just about starcraft" yet you are somehow worked up enough about it to call writers tools, call writing "vomit" and "nonsense." Because that sort of language and discussion is "taking it easy" and treating it lightly because its an article about StarCraft. Take your own advice. You're right, hot_bid. I forgot that one day, my grandchildren's grandchildren will gather around and hear stories about us. We, who lived in the Age of Boxer, Emperor of Terran. They will speak of us in hushed tones, we proud few who wrote articles about those shining figures of destiny who spent 10-12 hours a day playing starcraft. History will remember them, and will remember us for our part in their glory. I am sorry that I did not use proper tones of respect and passion when describing these events. It's okay, I forgive you, I know that Samsung fans in general have trouble seeing reality for how it is.
Yeah. My life is, for the most part, seen through the lens of Samsung fanhood. Stork's crazy aggressive style of play entertained me when I watched vods, and I felt reality instantly melt away and become a swirling kaleidoscope of fantasy. My life changed forever the day I signed up at team liquid and clicked that fateful dropdown menu.
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Can't agree more with you. To live in the past isn't something healthy.
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When I went back to log in so i could post on this thread, i noticed the little CJ stickers p-shopped on the trucks. Nice little touch...
Okay, real post: Great article, I hate it when people hate "noobs" for liking newer players. I remember watching my first ever pro match, it was Mind vs. Effort on neo Medusa in GOM season 3, ro.32. I remember that Tasteless was hilarious, SDM screwed up so many english words, and kept talking about hotdogs, and i remember looking at the way Effort controlled his army, and I was in awe.
Then i remember watching Flash play in the GOMTV SI, and I instantly fell in love with the way he played. I didn't know the outcomes of any of the games, so it felt like a fresh tournament to me, and there was just something about FlaSh that i though was incredible, and he motivated ( and still motivates me) to play Terran.
On October 20 2009 00:26 DrainX wrote:
No other player will ever take the place that Savior has in my heart. I won't ever let any new player get that much of my love. The pain when the stars finally fall is just too great =(
This is why the elitists hate noobs. They're jealous of us guys. We have our stars that are peaking. I mean hell, i don't even think we've seen the best of FlaSh, Jaedong, or Bisu, but those guys have to watch the shells of the former stars they once loved. It'd be like watching Joe Montana play for the Chiefs after starting for 14 years and winning 4 super bowls with the 49ers, or watching Wayne Gretzky play with the Rangers at the age of 40, when in his prime he scored 92 goals in an 82 game season. But now you have Tom Brady and Sidney Crosby, and the game is moving on.
I've heard people talk about stagnation in the Pro scene, because there are so many good player. I think it's the contrary. With so many good players, it forces the best players to have to play that much better, just to retain their average place in the rankings, resulting in all of us seeing better games. Because there are more players, there are more leagues, more upsets, and more surprises.
The SC proleague is at it's peak right now, and I'm personally trying to enjoy it the best I can, because although i am excited for SC2, nobody knows what it will do to the proleague, although I am optimistic.
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On October 20 2009 01:03 intrigue wrote:
samsung? SAMSUNG?!?!??! oh dear lord you kids are going to be sad. ohhhhh is there a more loathsome team
Meh, I'd rather root for a team with players that actually have some personality, and act like the young adults they are. Rather than a team who make their players put on a poker face 24/7 and refusing to gg 10 minutes after the game's effectively over.
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I understand bandwagoning and all this stuff... But CJ?! Come on!
+ Show Spoiler +You're always welcome on the T1 side, Hot_Bid 
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Braavos36374 Posts
On October 20 2009 01:23 Manit0u wrote:I understand bandwagoning and all this stuff... But CJ?! Come on! + Show Spoiler +You're always welcome on the T1 side, Hot_Bid
Yeah, who needs to learn to paint and paint pictures when you can just buy paintings. At least the overpriced, washed up version of them.
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haha, I aint no progamer,I am D-, from my point of view its not that important if a player controls 1 group of marines and has 1000/2000 in the bank or controls 3 gruops of mutas and has 5/5 in the bank.
For me the real enjoyment from watching SC is when someone lifts his CC to avoid scouting, hallucinate his arbiters to do crazy recall or maelstrom bunch of guardians and devouiers and storm them to win the game.
now is much much more boring
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Nice write-up. Though I don't think it was a mistake to send sAviOr out in the ace match. Call me insane as you like, but I don't think the coach would have sent him out if he didn't have any sort of indicator this might be a good idea. We have no idea how he's doing in practice whatsoever.
The only thing sad about today's ace-match was the "not-GGing" part. But that's a part of CJ tradition so... fuck it ;>
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Well put.
edit:
On October 20 2009 01:14 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 01:10 eMbrace wrote:
Good read, I'm gonna take it as more humorous than serious though, assuming that is what you were aiming for. Thanks. I guess now that you agree with parts of an article, it magically becomes not "petty," it suddenly "deserves" to be on the front page, and people shouldn't "just ignore it."
That's not fair: of course the content of an article has an impact on what people think of it. It's not inconsistent to think of Plexa's elitist article as petty and your populist article as broad-minded or whatever.
How do you think articles should be judged?
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On October 20 2009 00:14 Sunyveil wrote:
BackHo is still the best player on the planet in my book.
<3 backho he may not always win but all his games are fun to watch. never plays the same twice it seems.
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"And it sucked when Brood War players could only control one group of units and had 2000/1000 in the bank after microing a group of marines for two minutes (hi BoxeR). It sucked when Brood War players had to specifically design a strategy around not making a lot of workers because they were just that bad at macro (hi YellOw)."
this comment sucks a lot.
and btw i found the game funnier to play back then coze we weren't really stuck with a fast expand almost always necessarily which made most of the mu with terran and protoss much more aggressive...That doesn't mean we don't enjoy starcraft game play present day...
Now about the old players, no need to talk how low was the level 8 years ago, we all know that Flash Jaedong SkyHigh are now far better, but we can grant the fact that players such as Boxer, fOru GORUSH wtf... are still here and still all have some very good mu, gorush can still take down ANY FUCKIN BODY he's doing army and he's the same guy that won WCG 2000...
And you call them grand pa while every time you see a bunker rush you see boxer, every time you see carrier you see Grrrr...
It's not like we don't acknowledge new good players, Calm is the next fury and Flash is going God Mode.
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Um... we all know eStro are gonna win so I'm just gonna hop on that bandwagon.
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I have no idea who this guy is but I know he's better than Boxer.
Hilarious although somewhat sad. I really liked this article more than the Backseat Broodwar, just because it's more in line with the way I feel. I have alot of respect for old gamers, but I would much rather watch Flash play than Boxer or Nada play. Much rather watch Bisu play than Nal_Ra. Personally I thought Heritage was pretty boring minus Boxer/Yellow and I've always been sort of annoyed by the whole "remember the days where Gods walked amongst us", "there's a reason Bisu, Jaedong, Flash call so-so hyung"... kind of talk. Yeah it's cause they're older. And of course respected, but not every fan has to pretend to be excited to see old gamers play now just so they don't look like bandwagoners.
And do I get excited when I open up the OSL or MSL offline prelim threads to see if Boxer or Yellow advanced? Of course. Would Boxer or Yellow getting to the semis or finals of a Starleague be way more exciting/epic than Flash getting there? Hell yes. I would kill to see a comeback like that. But that would imply they got good again.. and until that happens, I don't really care to see too many of their games. That's just the truth.
On a side note, I still really enjoyed reading backseat broodwar and it's annoying that everyone is hating on it. Both of these articles are not entirely serious and should be read as entertainment with a bit of food for thought. Loved it Hot_Bid!
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9070 Posts
I like the reference to ACE and the players there cause the chances of ACE and CJ to win the Proleague are dead even
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Great article. Elitism is understandable when it's based on one group's ability over another, but it makes no sense in regard to fandom. You can't be better at liking something than someone else.
It always annoyed me when people say that they're "true" fans, or that they like a team or player for the "right" reasons. There's no reason to shit all over someone else's enjoyment of the game.
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Ahhhhh, controversy!
*brings out the popcorn*
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Braavos36374 Posts
On October 20 2009 01:50 Vasoline73 wrote:
I have no idea who this guy is but I know he's better than Boxer.
Hilarious although somewhat sad. I really liked this article more than the Backseat Broodwar, just because it's more in line with the way I feel. I have alot of respect for old gamers, but I would much rather watch Flash play than Boxer or Nada play. Much rather watch Bisu play than Nal_Ra. Personally I thought Heritage was pretty boring minus Boxer/Yellow and I've always been sort of annoyed by the whole "remember the days where Gods walked amongst us", "there's a reason Bisu, Jaedong, Flash call so-so hyung"... kind of talk. Yeah it's cause they're older. And of course respected, but not every fan has to pretend to be excited to see old gamers play now just so they don't look like bandwagoners.
And do I get excited when I open up the OSL or MSL offline prelim threads to see if Boxer or Yellow advanced? Of course. Would Boxer or Yellow getting to the semis or finals of a Starleague be way more exciting/epic than Flash getting there? Hell yes. I would kill to see a comeback like that. But that would imply they got good again.. and until that happens, I don't really care to see too many of their games. That's just the truth.
On a side note, I still really enjoyed reading backseat broodwar and it's annoying that everyone is hating on it. Both of these articles are not entirely serious and should be read as entertainment with a bit of food for thought. Loved it Hot_Bid!
Word. Its possible to respect older players while still liking newer ones. I think the other article tried to say that but it got drowned out by a chorus of fast-twitch fans that just read the article wrong.
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I think i just became a Hot_Bid fanboy. :D
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Fantastic article.
Hot_Bid is the best staff writer by a mile.
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lol a new chapter in the TL Catechisme, How to Cheer and Why. I don't need anyone to tell me what to like, but this was a fun article though.
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Thanks for this. This was one of my criticisms of backseat BW.
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Really now? Did we have to go there again?
"Good read" does not translate to "I agree with your article and therefore I enjoyed it." Stop putting people below you.
I actually disagreed with several points, such as calling savior a bad player, when he's actually a pretty solid Z compared to many -- just no longer dominant. This is why I took this article humoursly because I understood the general message you were trying to get across, even though your points were a bit far fetched.
Some old players are pretty bad, but there are a good few who still play solid Starcraft, and as long as they are getting paid to play they have the right to be criticized and comapred to current, more skillful players.
So yes, I enjoyed reading your article for the simple reason that it was well presented. Deal with it.
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9070 Posts
On October 20 2009 01:55 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 01:50 Vasoline73 wrote:
I have no idea who this guy is but I know he's better than Boxer.
Hilarious although somewhat sad. I really liked this article more than the Backseat Broodwar, just because it's more in line with the way I feel. I have alot of respect for old gamers, but I would much rather watch Flash play than Boxer or Nada play. Much rather watch Bisu play than Nal_Ra. Personally I thought Heritage was pretty boring minus Boxer/Yellow and I've always been sort of annoyed by the whole "remember the days where Gods walked amongst us", "there's a reason Bisu, Jaedong, Flash call so-so hyung"... kind of talk. Yeah it's cause they're older. And of course respected, but not every fan has to pretend to be excited to see old gamers play now just so they don't look like bandwagoners.
And do I get excited when I open up the OSL or MSL offline prelim threads to see if Boxer or Yellow advanced? Of course. Would Boxer or Yellow getting to the semis or finals of a Starleague be way more exciting/epic than Flash getting there? Hell yes. I would kill to see a comeback like that. But that would imply they got good again.. and until that happens, I don't really care to see too many of their games. That's just the truth.
On a side note, I still really enjoyed reading backseat broodwar and it's annoying that everyone is hating on it. Both of these articles are not entirely serious and should be read as entertainment with a bit of food for thought. Loved it Hot_Bid! Word. Its possible to respect older players while still liking newer ones. I think the other article tried to say that but it got drowned out by a chorus of fast-twitch fans that just read the article wrong.
so its the readers fault
An article is not a poem or any sort of work of art. If ppl understand the words inside too directly or simply doesnt like whats written, its not a sign of bad writing quality. I dont see why ppl should auto-like and approve the statements in the article. If you love what you've done and think about it "damn, I'm so good and everything I sad is 100% correct" it doesnt mean I should think the same.
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I hardly ever read an article entirely, but I had to for this one. Just so captivating and true. Very great stuff.
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On October 20 2009 02:15 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 01:55 Hot_Bid wrote:On October 20 2009 01:50 Vasoline73 wrote:
I have no idea who this guy is but I know he's better than Boxer.
Hilarious although somewhat sad. I really liked this article more than the Backseat Broodwar, just because it's more in line with the way I feel. I have alot of respect for old gamers, but I would much rather watch Flash play than Boxer or Nada play. Much rather watch Bisu play than Nal_Ra. Personally I thought Heritage was pretty boring minus Boxer/Yellow and I've always been sort of annoyed by the whole "remember the days where Gods walked amongst us", "there's a reason Bisu, Jaedong, Flash call so-so hyung"... kind of talk. Yeah it's cause they're older. And of course respected, but not every fan has to pretend to be excited to see old gamers play now just so they don't look like bandwagoners.
And do I get excited when I open up the OSL or MSL offline prelim threads to see if Boxer or Yellow advanced? Of course. Would Boxer or Yellow getting to the semis or finals of a Starleague be way more exciting/epic than Flash getting there? Hell yes. I would kill to see a comeback like that. But that would imply they got good again.. and until that happens, I don't really care to see too many of their games. That's just the truth.
On a side note, I still really enjoyed reading backseat broodwar and it's annoying that everyone is hating on it. Both of these articles are not entirely serious and should be read as entertainment with a bit of food for thought. Loved it Hot_Bid! Word. Its possible to respect older players while still liking newer ones. I think the other article tried to say that but it got drowned out by a chorus of fast-twitch fans that just read the article wrong. so its the readers fault An article is not a poem or any sort of work of art. If ppl understand the words inside too directly or simply doesnt like whats written, its not a sign of bad writing quality. I dont see why ppl should auto-like and approve the statements in the article. If you love what you've done and think about it "damn, I'm so good and everything I sad is 100% correct" it doesnt mean I should think same.
Yeah because Hot_Bid totally said "damn I'm the man 100% yoyo"
It's not disrespecting old gamers at all assuming that's what you're mad about and I think that's pretty obvious
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
good read
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No offense, but this is the worst article I've ever read...
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On October 20 2009 00:02 Hot_Bid wrote:
And it sucked when Brood War players could only control one group of units and had 2000/1000 in the bank after microing a group of marines for two minutes (hi BoxeR). It sucked when Brood War players had to specifically design a strategy around not making a lot of workers because they were just that bad at macro (hi YellOw).
No it didn't. That's your preference, it's not fact. You're being a little elitist in your anti-elitist argument.
On October 20 2009 00:02 Hot_Bid wrote:
Everyone is a bandwagon fan. Everyone. You like watching players play because they are good. Sure there are some oddballs here and there that you like for style or whatever, but the bottom line is, no matter how many ridiculous strategies a player attempts, he will get no fans and no recognition unless he wins with them. Are you really going to tell me that I can't like Flash because other people like him? I'm the biggest Ma Jae Yoon fan there is. I stick by him through thick and thin. Why am I a fan? Because he was ridiculously good.
I agree with your sentiment that people shouldn't be ridiculed for being a bandwagon fan, but everyone is not a bandwagon fan. You're not even a bandwagon fan. Regardless of why you began liking him, if you stick with him through thick and thin... that means you are not a bandwagon fan. Being a bandwagon fan means you don't support your team/player when they are not playing well.
People are often fans because of some connection they have with the team or player. That connection can be anything from a feeling, to fondly remembered experience, to a preference for the location of a mole on their face. To say that people all become fans of someone because they were the best at what they did is pretty shortsighted, IMHO.
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9070 Posts
On October 20 2009 02:23 Vasoline73 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 02:15 disciple wrote:On October 20 2009 01:55 Hot_Bid wrote:On October 20 2009 01:50 Vasoline73 wrote:
I have no idea who this guy is but I know he's better than Boxer.
Hilarious although somewhat sad. I really liked this article more than the Backseat Broodwar, just because it's more in line with the way I feel. I have alot of respect for old gamers, but I would much rather watch Flash play than Boxer or Nada play. Much rather watch Bisu play than Nal_Ra. Personally I thought Heritage was pretty boring minus Boxer/Yellow and I've always been sort of annoyed by the whole "remember the days where Gods walked amongst us", "there's a reason Bisu, Jaedong, Flash call so-so hyung"... kind of talk. Yeah it's cause they're older. And of course respected, but not every fan has to pretend to be excited to see old gamers play now just so they don't look like bandwagoners.
And do I get excited when I open up the OSL or MSL offline prelim threads to see if Boxer or Yellow advanced? Of course. Would Boxer or Yellow getting to the semis or finals of a Starleague be way more exciting/epic than Flash getting there? Hell yes. I would kill to see a comeback like that. But that would imply they got good again.. and until that happens, I don't really care to see too many of their games. That's just the truth.
On a side note, I still really enjoyed reading backseat broodwar and it's annoying that everyone is hating on it. Both of these articles are not entirely serious and should be read as entertainment with a bit of food for thought. Loved it Hot_Bid! Word. Its possible to respect older players while still liking newer ones. I think the other article tried to say that but it got drowned out by a chorus of fast-twitch fans that just read the article wrong. so its the readers fault An article is not a poem or any sort of work of art. If ppl understand the words inside too directly or simply doesnt like whats written, its not a sign of bad writing quality. I dont see why ppl should auto-like and approve the statements in the article. If you love what you've done and think about it "damn, I'm so good and everything I sad is 100% correct" it doesnt mean I should think same. Yeah because Hot_Bid totally said "damn I'm the man 100% yoyo" It's not disrespecting old gamers at all assuming that's what you're mad about and I think that's pretty obvious
no, no surely not. I wanted to say that if ppl say "yo, Hot_Bid (or plexa or riptide for that matter) I have other opinion about what you said" the writer shouldnt go "no, you just read it wrong".
For example I agree with max 10% of what Plexa says in his articles, but I enjoy reading every his post and I'm looking forward to every article made by him. As for Hot_Bid in most of the cases he is not trying to be factual like Plexa or riptide. Its totally fine that he is admitting his CJ fanboysm but again that doesnt mean I must share the same point of view as him and if I share my thoughts about that, I dont see why he must try to convince me that I'm wrong. Actually I'm with him on everything he says, but my idea is that the information in a given article, especially about StarCraft shouldnt be seen by anyone (the writer and the readers) as the ultimate truth.
My opinion as reader is just as valuable and valid as the one of the writer
EDIT: I'm not defending the ppl who are disagreeing about the content of this article, I'm defending the idea of having other opinion about stuff, that is clearly a matter of personal point of view
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People need to stop categorizing NaDa with the rest of the fossils. He has at least one deep starleague run left in him before SC2 hits. His play in Lost Saga MSL vs an in-form Jangbi could've easily been mistaken for Flash playing
I've kind of given up hope on sAviOr though.
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On October 20 2009 00:20 Pyrthas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 00:02 Hot_Bid wrote:
I have no idea who this guy is but I know he's better than Boxer. I loved this.
ya lol
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+ Show Spoiler +I fully approve and agree with this article! I also do agree with the other one and there's nothing wrong with liking old and new players! Like how I still love BoxeR to heart and every time he scores a win, I cry out "YEAAAAAAAAA BOXERRRRRRRRR" but at the same time, I'm like that when it comes down to an excellent show of display of games between Bisu, Jaedong and Flash.
Bandwagon is completely acceptable in society and reality. Obviously at some part or another, I'd say everyone have been a bandwagon fan in the past. In normal and most cases, a TRUE FAN starts as a bandwagon and slowly grows out of that stage once you truly like them not because of their skills and nature but because you just do. That's what I think OP and the other OP are trying to state. Both of these articles link up to one another, these are just showing the stepping stones and the results. I may be wrong, but that's how I really believe.
Look, I started out as a SKT1 fan from the straight get go from day 1 just simply because I fell in love with BoxeR (no, I'm not gay, just as a fan-ish way). And look, he was from SKT1! So I instantly joined the bandwagon of what's called SKT1 from that very first day. Am I the same type of guy now who's a SKT1 because of BoxeR, Bisu, and their sheer dominance in 2009? Yes and no. Yes because I loved it when that happened, there's nothing wrong with that but no because after a year and half of following progaming scene, I learned to respect and like not just those main stars and the team but the entire organization as a whole. That doesn't mean I still like all the players, but someone like Hyuk, I truly believe and want to believe he'll become the next top zerg! Is that bandwagon? No, it's personal opinion that grew up from a group of consciences that was formed right here in TL. That's why I love TL so much, only because of TL I follow PL, only because TL exist, I watch SC and learn more. I don't about you guys but TL made me smarter than what I was when I was just a loose cannon watching random VODs whenever I feel bored on youtube.
So for that TL, thank you, my intelligence level increased by able to read, share, and express opinions with others. That may include trollers, that may include myself trolling, and being trolled, nonetheless, it's a great experience to have which I can only find such an experience right here in TL. I will continue to do so and I will find it right here on the very site with all of you.
Btw, 10/10 for the article....
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btw when we ll see a counter- article to the one created by Hot_Bid's ?
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On October 20 2009 02:33 disciple wrote:
EDIT: I'm not defending the ppl who are disagreeing about the content of this article, I'm defending the idea of having other opinion about stuff, that is clearly a matter of personal point of view
this
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Great article,
Sticking by your favourite player definitely has its price. In my case, that means that  Stork contributed 0 points to my fantasy team so far. Will not trade him away, ever! (Not that I can, anyway - he's the captain)
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On October 20 2009 02:37 siv00 wrote:
People need to stop categorizing NaDa with the rest of the fossils. He has at least one deep starleague run left in him before SC2 hits. His play in Lost Saga MSL vs an in-form Jangbi could've easily been mistaken for Flash playing
I've kind of given up hope on sAviOr though.
Flash played savior once and thought it was Jaedong.
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This article strikes me as something Hot_Bid wrote when he was drunk and pissed off. I personally don't like the frequency this article relies on questions to make points. I think it could have been written without using any of them and it would have come across a lot more seriously instead of as a rant.
The watching professional broodwar exclusively to see high level play and the bandwagon argument are counterintuitive to me. I think if the only reason people watched competitive broodwar was to see the game played at the highest level possible jaedong/flash/bisu/whoever is dominating at the time would be the only progamer with fans.
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I agree with hotbids side of the argument.
I respect Boxer and the oldschool gang for what they did and they pioneered the game and made it what it is. But the achievement of winning an individual league or dominating proleague today is ALOT more impressive.
Boxer and Nal_rA was impressive in the sense of how they went against the norm and practised hard and thought alot about strategic aspects which made them superior to some of the other names at the time.
Jaedong and Flash is impressive in the sense that they are in a highly competetive environment where the best of the best duke it out and they are the top dogs. They practise harder and more efficiently than other players. Also they have a talent and a passion for the game. That is why people are (and should be) more impressed by newschool top players.
But ofcourse the whole "new Bonjwa" discussion is pointless. There will never be another Bonjwa. The game is too competetive now for someone to stand firmly above all others, being untouchable in every way.
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I think the biggest irony of the Backseat Broodwar article was about 'bandwagon' Bisu/Flash/Jaedong fans, who 'only like them because they win'.
Because MJY fans totally weren't bandwagon fans for him specifically because he won so much, right?
99% of fans like to cheer for winners. Boxer was a winner. Nada, oov, Savior, WINNERS. Bisu, Flash, Jaedong, WINNERS. The only difference is the number of years that have passed. Everyone who is a fan of any of these players falls into the same category: People who like to see winners win.
Savior fans don't get any moral highground over Jaedong fans, Nada fans don't get any moral highground over Flash fans. Both of them are 'bandwagon fans' by the definition of the last article, and there's nothing wrong with that.
At the end of the day, what would you rather watch? A Bo5 Jaedong/Flash, or a Bo5 Savior/Nada?
Let's not lie, 95% of us would choose the former, every time.
Anyway, I think most of us here on TL have our favorite 'winner' (our favorite player out of the S or A+ class) and then our favorite 'normal' player (for style or whatnot) too.
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On October 20 2009 00:14 Sunyveil wrote:
BackHo is still the best player on the planet in my book.
He fucking beat Stork and then got a back injury. That's epic!
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Ahahaha, this was both amazing and necessary. It's such a great followup that I don't really have much to add. So, in typical LR style, I will commentate:
HOOOOOOOT BIIIIIIIIID
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The whole argument afterward just confuses me. I thought Hot Bid was saying that things weren't better before, that that's just nostalgia speaking. I think nostalgia is all right, but it's immensely unfair to current players to be forced to have to compete with some idealized nostalgic view of how things were when x/y/z/bonjwa was still playing good. I just thought Hot Bid was saying that it's wrong to be elitist against fans of current players and pretend that the current players are somehow worse or not up to the standards 'set' by the older generations. Maybe I got it wrong, but I liked the argument like that...
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Katowice25012 Posts
I used to root for backho solely because I liked seeing the upset posts when he beat better players.
I don't even know who to cheer for anymore.
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sexy read
is plexa fuming?
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On October 20 2009 01:31 drivec wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 00:14 Sunyveil wrote:
BackHo is still the best player on the planet in my book. <3 backho he may not always win but all his games are fun to watch. never plays the same twice it seems.
Disagree. He plays the same style of badly at least every 9/10 games.
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at least those games where u had to control marines for 2 minutes and the strategies that u had to create because of bad macro were so much more fun than today's mech TvZ for example.
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On October 20 2009 03:50 nadafanboy42 wrote:
The whole argument afterward just confuses me. I thought Hot Bid was saying that things weren't better before, that that's just nostalgia speaking. I think nostalgia is all right, but it's immensely unfair to current players to be forced to have to compete with some idealized nostalgic view of how things were when x/y/z/bonjwa was still playing good. I just thought Hot Bid was saying that it's wrong to be elitist against fans of current players and pretend that the current players are somehow worse or not up to the standards 'set' by the older generations. Maybe I got it wrong, but I liked the argument like that...
You are just unable to read their articles correctly. Simple is that.
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haha. awesome.
I'm not sure I'm 100% with you when you say "everyone's a fanboy," but I do see your point. I just think that if you like a player, you should have a reason why. It doesn't have to be anything complicated, but it shouldn't be, "Because everyone else does."
Of course, having good, educated debates about players (or almost any other topic) can be fun, but when it keeps going back to the same arguments, you just have to shake hands and walk away, because that's when opinions take over.
sKyHigh!!!
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Thank you! This viewpoint is underrepresented amongst "the powers that be".
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On October 20 2009 04:04 FakeKisser wrote:
haha. awesome.
I'm not sure I'm 100% with you when you say "everyone's a fanboy," but I do see your point. I just think that if you like a player, you should have a reason why. It doesn't have to be anything complicated, but it shouldn't be, "Because everyone else does."
Of course, having good, educated debates about players (or almost any other topic) can be fun, but when it keeps going back to the same arguments, you just have to shake hands and walk away, because that's when opinions take over.
sKyHigh!!!
I doubt anyone likes a player or team just because lots of other people do. Maybe they like that team or player for the same reasons everyone else does, but its not simply because they are popular
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Great article. Fully agree. I'm even considering hopping on one of those CJ Bandwagons.
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Awesome articles on both sides, haha :D
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CJ IS SO WINNING!
110% sure
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I get the feeling, without knowing how old you are or anything about you really, that you don't fully understand the term "bandwagon". Maybe its me, I'm a bit older than the majority of users here, I think the word implies a person that follows trends. So no, not everyone is a bandwagon fan. As an example, you see Flash is #1 in the rankings and you are calling yourself a fan. You don't know anything about him, you barely follow professional StarCraft but you declare you are a fan. That's a bandwagon fan.
I love BoxeR, I grew up playing StarCraft with him and our lives are pretty close in some ways but I did not jump on the bandwagon back then. I was surprised to hear the number of fans BoxeR has. I like BoxeR for his micro and I don't appreciate macro as much. That one big play is more memorable than a check mark in the Victory column after 50 minutes to me. Michael Jordan, Babe Ruth, Jerry Rice are all playing a team sport to which they have big moments but they don't single handedly win a game do they? What are your thoughts?
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My favorite article on TL.net!
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On October 20 2009 04:16 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 04:04 FakeKisser wrote:
haha. awesome.
I'm not sure I'm 100% with you when you say "everyone's a fanboy," but I do see your point. I just think that if you like a player, you should have a reason why. It doesn't have to be anything complicated, but it shouldn't be, "Because everyone else does."
Of course, having good, educated debates about players (or almost any other topic) can be fun, but when it keeps going back to the same arguments, you just have to shake hands and walk away, because that's when opinions take over.
sKyHigh!!! I doubt anyone likes a player or team just because lots of other people do. Maybe they like that team or player for the same reasons everyone else does, but its not simply because they are popular
You, sir, do not remember how the Raiders once were.
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Wow great read, appreciated that some other staff members accept bandwagoning.
And I been cheering for Flash ever since I saw him trouncing Stork in the GSI, and I been an anti fan of Stork undtil he beat Fantasy who is my newest hate, does that change of opinions make me and noone BW fan? No.
Thanks for pointing this out Hot_bid.
EDIT: And you think CJ will win ? KT has this in the bag!
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this article is so lame period.
And this comment about being sure he's better than Boxer, even if i understand what you mean, you don't even know them, Boxer still has a descent t v z, what if they are zerg? You have no possibility to know anything if you don't know them, this is pure bullshit comment. If it's just to tell your opinion don't bother writing an article for everyone make your own blog.
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Put this in blogs please, this really has no place in news.
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i think this article tried too hard to be realist and ended up in exaggeration
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On October 20 2009 00:02 Hot_Bid wrote:
or post "wow this dude sucks" every time Effort rolls over a crappy washed up Air Force player, no matter how many times he won a starleague in 2003. That's not disrespecting him. Because sucking now doesn't change his win back then, and winning then doesn't affect us recognizing he sucks today.
So when someone rolls over Reach when he doesn't even have the possibility of practicing the same amount as his opponent, you're gonna be saying wow this dude sucks when that'll probably be the last time we ever see him?
Because it seems to have happened to every professional player that has played Starcraft we know that a few years down the line everyone's gonna suck from Boxer to Jaedong. And because it's guaranteed to happen I can't even fault these players when after their time has passed they can't keep up with the highest tier of Starcraft.
In Starcraft there are definitely advantages with being able to transition to new players as time goes on. Because the length of a player's career is so short and most cannot come back after their respective times it is more reasonable to bet on a new horse than the old one.
Korea is an elder based society. Despite the length of their careers people hold high respect for old gamers because they paved the road that players today walk on. Every player today will call July hyung and not wow you suck July. And it's not just the age, more than just about any other sport, today's players build on top of the evolutions of the previous generation because they get to where they are by pouring over and replays/builds/styles of the generation that came before. If there was no Iloveoov we wouldn't have the same highest level of Starcraft because maybe no one would have been able to prove how strong Macro truly was.
It isn't just because of me that I have this attitude toward old gamers. When I look at interviews of Starcraft players themselves, none of them seem to think wow this dude sucks in regards to old gamers. Do you guys recall that game where Yellow beat Bisu when July got so pissed off because of the attitude of the "fans"? He was so angry because it felt so disrespectful to treat it like a miracle that this legend could even win a game.
How many of you remember this interview with Boxer after beating Flash while in the Air Force?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=54809
It seems like time passes by fast. When older players lose to young players, the shock is greater than losing to other people. I cannot erase the feeling that I am being forgotten faster. So I clenched my teeth during the game today. I don’t want to be forgotten.
All the players on Air Force Ace, these might be the last times we can ever see them. If my last thoughts of a player were "wow this dude sucks" and I were to tell him that when it's something guaranteed to happen to every Starcraft player. How do you think Boxer would feel when he is already this down on himself for not being able to play as well as he wishes?
As a fan shouldn't one consider how the players feel? Because what does a fan do other than support the ones they cheer for? If I really wanted to support someone wouldn't it be best to try to see things in a way that makes them happy, than makes me happy?
It's just the attitude that these legends suck so bad makes me think of Kanye West doing this
while Boxer gives this interview
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=54809
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Awesome awesome post Hot_Bid ^^
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Good rant; although, ...
Everyone is a bandwagon fan. Everyone. You like watching players play because they are good. Sure there are some oddballs here and there that you like for style or whatever, but the bottom line is, no matter how many ridiculous strategies a player attempts, he will get no fans and no recognition unless he wins with them.
Okay, HB we get it. You know what a fan is; however, you should know the difference between a bandwagon and a fan. Not everyone is a bandwagoner. There are those faithful who stick by their team through and through for whatever reason, for example territorial patriotism.
Look at Michael Jordan. 100% of his fans are bandwagon fans. And those guys who cheered against him? Also bandwagon fans. Every single SK Telecom fan? Bandwagon fan. There's nothing wrong with that.
See above. This is a far cry from an Editorial. Like I said before, it's a rant. So you want to rev up the crowd and make them cheer louder. No problem with that. Hell, life would be boring without sports and everyone agreeing with everyone else. I love adding more fuel to the fire myself. Just the other night I was at the Leafs game with my Dad. I cheered for Toronto and jeered at New York louder than anyone else. Hell, I even yelled "Brashear's a fucking pansy" at the top of my lungs during the 2nd period. We were only 22 rows back. You know what happened after that scrimmage? Donald got a penalty. I like to think I had an impact on that call. Fans can impact the game and momentum in a match. It's true. The bandwagoners started their boos halfway during that period and you know what? I continued to cheer them on with my Dad. I know our team sucks, but there is no need for us to vocalize it by booing. We get it. You are loyal to CJ. That's fine. I'm a loyal fan to my Toronto Maple Leafs and MBC. You and I are good.
I'm a realist; you seem to be a realist (I think CJ has some stiff competition this year when it comes to taking the trophy home).
With that said, remember one thing: there is a difference between a fan and some bandwagon coming out of left field.
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YEAH CJ
This is a great article, but there's a difference between liking someone when they are good and contining to like them even when they fall off and just always cheering for whoever the best player is at the time.
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This article certainly ads to the one Plexa did quite nicely. Good read.
I wonder if there will be a third point of view.
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I've always been a Pantech/WeMade fan =[ And a big CJ/G.O hater.
But I don't really like people for their skill as much as how fun it is to watch them, and what kind of a person they are behind the gaming.
from last nights games
+ Show Spoiler +I am now a Ryan/SangHo[Shield] fan, the dude looks like he could hit a jukebox to make it work again. Guy looks cool as hell
I'm almost sad to think about WeMade making it far in the proleague this season, because then there would be more fans, and I kind of like cheering for the underdog/being part of a small group of fanboys.
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That was a pretty terrible "article". If you want to rant please put it in blogs. I didn't even realize what you were talking about until the end.
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On October 20 2009 05:44 GunSlinger wrote:
That was a pretty terrible "article". If you want to rant please put it in blogs. I didn't even realize what you were talking about until the end.
I didn't really enjoy reading it either.
+ Show Spoiler +NOT TO MENTION THE AUTHOR IS A CJ-LOVING SCUMBAG :D
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hehehe backho gonna smash CJ!! then do fbh dance
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On October 20 2009 05:44 GunSlinger wrote:
I didn't even realize what you were talking about until the end.
Pretty sure you didn't ever realize what he was talking about, then.
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CJ fanboy reporting in.
wait can I be an everything fanboy? I just love BW in general. lol.
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I disagree with many aspects of this article.
1. Whether or not fanboys will be discouraged from cheering for other winning players or old timers, why do we care?
2. ACE is technically not washed up
Seems like you dont respect too much from the past, rather you like to move on. Sure you talk about sticking to MJY to the end, but really now, does that give you the ability to smash some of the other old timers who don't got it anymore?
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hyuk fan since 2008 ^^
(cause his games were amusing)
but im all for cj winning the proleague
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I'm quite glad this article was written. It's the elitism in the community that we need to keep from expanding if we expect the community to grow and flourish.
10/10 by far.
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On October 20 2009 00:30 TwoToneTerran wrote:
I think you mean KT.
I think he did mean KT
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We all look at the world through our own set of lenses.
I like the diversity of opinions amongst staff. You articulated your views and provided a great arguments for it.
It's not like the staff should always a united front...we're not in a war against some enemy. Diversity in opinion is what makes this very community interesting.
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haha Great read. Loved the Nal_rA to Bisu comparison.
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On October 20 2009 00:50 Hot_Bid wrote:
It's great you liked my article but please stfu.
LOL! Classic stuff!
Great article by the way, it really got me thinking.
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On October 20 2009 05:12 iamho wrote:
i think this article tried too hard to be realist and ended up in exaggeration
I think it tried too hard to exaggerate and ended up realistic.
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On October 20 2009 00:15 iSiN wrote:
it's like a staff flame war
this is just getting better and better, cant wait for a "reply" of another staff... 
PD: great reading by the way....
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finally T_T iv been thinking this the moment I learned about the scene.. or whenever someone says back then
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 20 2009 03:56 hyst.eric.al wrote:
sexy read
is plexa fuming?
Not in the slightest, why should i be? This doesn't contradict anything riptide/myself said in BBW
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It's important to have some people that can transition to new players as Starcraft goes on. Because the career length of a player is so short it can be hard to keep following Starcraft when all your favorite players are retired. For a while I didn't like all these new faces showing up in Starcraft beating old players because I couldn't get attached to them. But if no one can switch to the next generation whos going to be watching Starcraft when no one we like plays?
The problem I have with the current best player bandwagon mentality is when people talk like it's such a fucking insight that the best player today is better than the best player a year ago. It's like yeah obviously the Mars Rover is more technologically advanced then Apollo 11. But some people have the gall to compare the two like the Mars Rover is more important than the Apollo 11 ever was. That is the part that makes me angry, not the bandwagon mentality itself, but the ignorance in the arguments presented by the people that think the Mars Rover is greater than Apollo 11 could ever be.
That's why when people say you think Jaedong/Bisu/Flash is Bonjwa? It's like such a slap in the face when all the discussion really shows is that they really don't understand the meaning of the term Bonjwa itself. There's nothing wrong with liking whomever, in fact it helps the longevity of Starcraft because new players get support as well.
The problem occurs if a player that only follows casually with limited knowledge says not only is my player great he's a bigger deal than any player that has ever come before him.
Consider this sentence:
You see that guy Anytime on Ace? Wow he sucks noob, maybe he could learn to play Protoss from Backho, that's a real Protoss player.
If there was a Backho bandwagon and someone said this, do you see all the things that are wrong with this statement? Or why such a person could easily be labeled as ignorant or of having a less valuable/informed opinion vs someone else? Even if he was a Backho fan the only thing it accomplished was lowering the perceived IQ of Backho fans everywhere through the sheer ignorance of such a statement.
The following is certainly not a sentence to Hotbid, but to casual current best player bandwagons. If a person follows Starcraft casually with limited knowledge they don't care to increase, they should not try to educate people when they haven't taken the initiative to educate themself.
Bandwagons can be good, casual fans that haven't made the slightest effort to learn about something before educating others is bad.
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There was always someone to start something.
Just because their time has come and go, doesn't mean we shouldn't still root for that player. Sure, if you focus on the past you'll get nowhere in the future, but we honor war veterans and give them respect, don't we? Shouldn't we do the same for veterans of Starcraft?
What's the point of museums if all they serve is to reminisce of old, smelly artifacts from an ancient period? What's the point of cherishing anything from a past time-frame if you don't respect how it got there? The fact that people still have a special place in their hearts for old-timers such as BoxeR or Yellow, proves that.
I don't think this should be a front-page spread. It doesn't necessarily reflect any other person's views and values, all it does is have a negative connotation towards sentimentalism.
And why the fuck is my race automatically selected as Terran?
Mod Edit: No need to bold your entire post, we can read it just fine without
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On October 20 2009 07:20 FallingTeardrops wrote:
There was always someone to start something.
Just because their time has come and go, doesn't mean we shouldn't still root for that player. Sure, if you focus on the past you'll get nowhere in the future, but we honor war veterans and give them respect, don't we? Shouldn't we do the same for veterans of Starcraft?
What's the point of museums if all they serve is to reminisce of old, smelly artifacts from an ancient period? What's the point of cherishing anything from a past time-frame if you don't respect how it got there? The fact that people still have a special place in their hearts for old-timers such as BoxeR or Yellow, proves that.
I don't think this should be a front-page spread. It doesn't necessarily reflect any other person's views and values, all it does is have a negative connotation towards sentimentalism.
And why the fuck is my race automatically selected as Terran?
You can change your race in your profile ' -'a
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awesome article. hot bid you are 100% right
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On October 20 2009 00:02 Hot_Bid wrote:I have no idea who this guy is but I know he's better than Boxer.
That's FanTastic_NamoO.
He's WAYYY better than Boxer will ever be
+ Show Spoiler +...at 2v2 games.
Of course, Kespa removed 2v2 games and forced this poor fellow to retire
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I totally agree with everything this article states. Awesome read.
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On October 20 2009 00:14 Sunyveil wrote:
BackHo is still the best player on the planet in my book.
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i tend to agree but there is no need of bashing professional gamers no matter what the skill level or strategies are. things evolve and i bet your ass couldn't beat any of them. instead you're one of those critics that just write shit just to get people to look. am i right? i think so.
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last year i was for T1
THIS YEAR IS CJ YEAR!
KIM JUNG WOO FIGHTING!!!
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It would be so sad for my FPL and just broodwar fan experience if CJ rocked the rest of the season but not Round 1.
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On October 20 2009 08:15 RYZmooN wrote:
last year i was for T1
THIS YEAR IS CJ YEAR!
KIM JUNG WOO FIGHTING!!!
ok i love entus but kt rolster is freakin unstoppable lol (its only a shame i dont have them on my fantasy team)
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This is stupid. People actually have free will and don't blindly follow "the winner", it's ofc a trend and there are people who will jump on winning bandwagon, but it doesn't describe everyone or anything, it's just fraction of a factor.
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On October 20 2009 08:43 dranjam wrote:
This is stupid. People actually have free will and don't blindly follow "the winner", it's ofc a trend and there are people who will jump on winning bandwagon, but it doesn't describe everyone or anything, it's just fraction of a factor.
a fraction worth devoting the front page of TL to
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thats like saying gretzky sucks, because he would get owned now a days. Woa i have never seen such retarted front page hate about people that have changed this game forever, Hot Bid You are a class A hater. and if you want to talk about bandwagong, look at all these clueless people posting here, i bet you 95% of people here didnt develop vision when boxer was raping it up, or when Grrr was dominating the world. Yes people now have more tools to be better (no replays to start with, am tools) but these people that you so kindly disrespect, were the shit when this game actually mattered.
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I agree with uiCk...a bandwagon fan is a person that likes a certain player/team/whatever while that entity is performing well, and then stops being a fan once that entity stops being as good. That's like saying people who like the Chicago Cubs are bandwagon fans because they won a world series in 1908...it's stupid, and nobody would agree with it when it's put into that context.
Moreover, how is liking Boxer or Savior at this point being a bandwagon fan? Boxer can't hang and Savior is barely on the CJ A team, but people still like them because they are icons of the game. Heritage was amazing for me because it took me back to the early 2000s when I was first introduced to professional Starcraft. It didn't matter if the games weren't as good as any Jaedong/Bisu/Flash game; it mattered that the Emperor, the Dreamer, the Maestro, or any other player from that tournament was playing.
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like thse players that "sucked" MADE EVERYTHING ALL YOU NEWBS ARE ENJOYING TODAY. all these players created the competition, the "dream" of playing like boxer, all thse new players i have no clue about all IDOLIZED players like nada, boxer, garmito, yellow, played 198142904801 more hours then them, studied them, and became the product they are today.
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I watched a lot of games through out the years. I even went back and watched all televized games of old players I like(elky, boxer, v-gundam, grr..., etc.) I thought some of those games were better then games I've seen today. I also turned some of them off because they were so god awful boring(ratio is like 1 in every 4 games).
Like who you want to like because of their play. I love EVERY pro gaming team and EVERY player. But there are teams that I want to win over other teams and same with players.(SKT1 is my powerhouse team and we're gonna win this year again gogo fantasy-bisu-best) But thats suffice to say that I enjoy watching estro beat them sometimes if the games are good.(its always cool to root for the underdog GO SANGHO!)
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rofl, what a great flame session
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I believe my team logo already shows my fanboyism ^^
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I AM HERE ARRGHHH! GO CJ DO THIS SHITTT!!!!
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On October 20 2009 09:08 uiCk wrote:
like thse players that "sucked" MADE EVERYTHING ALL YOU NEWBS ARE ENJOYING TODAY. all these players created the competition, the "dream" of playing like boxer, all thse new players i have no clue about all IDOLIZED players like nada, boxer, garmito, yellow, played 198142904801 more hours then them, studied them, and became the product they are today.
yes... i think everyone here can agree with that...
On October 20 2009 00:02 Hot_Bid wrote:
Is it my fault I want to watch high level games? I went back the other day and watched Savior versus Nal_rA -- one of the most entertaining rivalries there was -- and it was sad. Really, it was. I'm all for appreciating what people can do at the peak of their abilities, but watching these old guys play against each other is like watching the WNBA or women's soccer. I understand that they're the best relative to their competition. I just don't care. I want to see the game played at its highest level, not some grandpa toss who can't figure out how to attack lurkers. Nal_rA, I get that you invented FE. That's great and all, but Bisu is the one that invented FE. I'm sure some fat white guy on a step ladder invented dunking, but Lebron James invented dunking.
in summary: they were the first... and we respect them for that... and they really aren't as good as modern players... and we also acknowledge that... where are you disagreeing with anything here?
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
(The last photo is such terrible resolution - what happened to it? O.O My photos never look that bad normally.)
Anyway, I used to be hard line Samsung Khan until I realized they're actually a pretty flat team when it comes to photography. (Aside from FBH, Stork and Chavi.) My preferences are not usually based upon the same constraints as those of fans who play BW or watch a lot of VODS.
I willingly acknowledge that I go where the good photos will be produced - so I've come to love SKT1, Rolster and any of the more out-going players, ceremonies, extra fun things such as Bunkie and his dollar-store friend Shogun or those who produce aesthetically pleasing photos due to their looks/the career surrounding them. (Aka. fruit loops like Canata, Ryan, Chalrenge and GoRush, legends like Boxer, SaviOr and Nada, cult favorites like Backho/Lomo/JD triangle and very 'handsome' players such as Bisu, Hwasin, Piano and RuBy.) I have my own personal band wagon for ForGG as Pholon and co can tell you.
I actually love these silly band wagons that crop up from time to time such as the Guemchi/pimp connection and fuck yeah MVP! (anything coupling progamers and explosions is good in my mind.)
P.S. Even though I took that first photo *I* have no idea who he is either..... ^_^;
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Braavos36374 Posts
Sorry T.T
I resized it 
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I agree with the article except for the 'I have no idea who this guy is but he's better than Boxer'. I feel like Boxer's shown impressive games recently where he's been able to. You watch his play and it appears he's still got it, and yeah, who the hell is that guy (I know he's been named earlier in the thread), but fact is he's not better than boxer. lol
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WeMade Fox and KT Rolster, also known as KTF MagicNs, will forever and always be in my heart.  fOrGG is someone I will consider that was once a great player, and hopefully, he'll be one again, seeing as he's nowhere near an old age for progaming. Nothing will make me want to take them away as my favorites. Never!!! (Pun: Never_V_ = fOrGG)
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So what does it mean when someone is a Mantoss fanboy? He won back then, and he still manages to take games off Flash now, BEST BANDWAGON EVERRRR?
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United States11390 Posts
On October 20 2009 10:24 Loldts wrote:
So what does it mean when someone is a Mantoss fanboy? He won back then, and he still manages to take games off Flash now, BEST BANDWAGON EVERRRR?
Huh? He has never beaten Flash.
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On October 20 2009 07:11 Plexa wrote:Not in the slightest, why should i be? This doesn't contradict anything riptide/myself said in BBW
tbh, this is what I thought right away. Hot_Bid's article is more of a clarification of one point in riptide/Plexa than a rebuttal. He comes at it from another slant, certainly, but it's not like they're arguing opposite things.
On topic: From the perspective of a newish fan (I started following at about the GSI), I don't much care to watch the old-school players play. I'll admit that I only watched BoxeR vs Yell0w out of all the Heritage League games (and not even live, though tbh the only games I've watched live since the Bisu-JangBi MSL final have been the odd Proleague games where Bisu is up first for SKT so i can watch him and still get to bed at a decent time). I admire and respect them, but like Hot_Bid I have little interest in watching anything but the best. Interestingly, though, I became a Bisu fan during the period when he was not the best - not even the best Protoss. I just liked his style better than Stork's, so I cheered for him through his wrist injury and slump. The previously mentioned MSL final was such sweet vindication. I think I'm rambling at this point. End post.
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this is a blog entry. well done.
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Been a fan of stork since 07 when nal_ra was fading away and no matter how much fail he gives me, I'm still his fan. I'll never hop onto that bandwagon!
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is awesome32271 Posts
Bleh my comment is probably going to get lost in the 10 pages of comments. Anyway, I don't think that's what 'elitists' complain about.
You can compare raw mechanics, maybe skill to some extent. But the game paradigm changes and hence so do the match ups.
Playing ZvP in 2004 is NOTHING like playing ZvP today. Lurker contains barely are used (and if they are, they last some minutes, back then a contain could last almost a whole game). The match up is being standarized way more. A ZvP today on most maps is 9p / 12p expo, grab third, lair spire 5 hatch, sim city, hydra pump and then it might branch, but it usually doesn't, it's hydra ling to lurker/muta temp snipe.
Back then games branched a lot more cause the factors were not as stable as they are right now. A 2 gate attack by a protoss could end with a Templar follow up, with a forge expo, maybe even with the zerg losing his natural. And this were not exceptions like they might be today, I used to watch lots of replays, most of them from pros and it was not rare seeing games changing back and forth so much.
I drifted away too much from the main argument i think, but my main point is you can't compare results, or maybe even skill today to 3 or 4 years ago. You have lots of factors, maps, opponents, game paradigm. Dunno it doesn't make sense to me.
Of course you can say that the EffOrt of today would toy with the NaDa of today. But can he be as much accomplished? Can he dominate as much as NaDa did? or Oov? survive the test of time like both did? I don't think it even makes sense to seek and answer to these questions.
Ride the bandwagon, I will be in my elitist bus in the front, with a few others  !
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is awesome32271 Posts
Also I really DO appreciate style. I will make a stupid comparison for the sake of it.
forGG has a MSL gold title. Iris has no gold titles.
forGG stats TvZ: 28-15 (65.12%)
IriS stats TvZ: vZ: 60-49 (55.05%)
forGG wins more, but I would watch IriS any day over forGG. He plays way more entertaining games, even if he loses to stupid shit now and then and I bang my head against the keyboard for it. He has that "fuck it" style in every match-up.
forGG will always wait for units if he finds a strong defence, mass up and then attack. IriS now and then just stims and pulls brilliant micro, risking the result of the game in one move maybe, but make it more entertaining and just catching lots of players with their pants down.
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On October 20 2009 11:10 IntoTheWow wrote:
Also I really DO appreciate style. I will make a stupid comparison for the sake of it.
forGG has a MSL gold title. Iris has no gold titles.
forGG stats TvZ: 28-15 (65.12%)
IriS stats TvZ: vZ: 60-49 (55.05%)
forGG wins more, but I would watch IriS any day over forGG. He plays way more entertaining games, even if he loses to stupid shit now and then and I bang my head against the keyboard for it. He has that "fuck it" style in every match-up.
forGG will always wait for units if he finds a strong defence, mass up and then attack. IriS now and then just stims and pulls brilliant micro, risking the result of the game in one move maybe, but make it more entertaining and just catching lots of players with their pants down.
I could have sworn your rank icon 'LS' meant something...
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Osaka27136 Posts
He was an editor of liquiscoop.
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Rofl, great read hotbid, I seriously needed this.
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I'm a fanboy of whoever delivers the best results and at the moment, that is Jaedong.
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the other post was good by the other guys...but this was superior in so many ways....
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United States4796 Posts
Great read. :D
Truthful, and sensible, although mindshattering for some of the nubs. Nice to see TL is emphasizing what needs to be emphasized.
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The incredible relative skill of those previous players can't be ignored. Though I in part agree with the author in saying that they shouldn't be seen as better than today's players they deserve for respect for their times. Heck, Aristotle looks like a moron looking back, but do we look at him like that now? No...
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On October 20 2009 11:10 IntoTheWow wrote:
Also I really DO appreciate style. I will make a stupid comparison for the sake of it.
forGG has a MSL gold title. Iris has no gold titles.
forGG stats TvZ: 28-15 (65.12%)
IriS stats TvZ: vZ: 60-49 (55.05%)
forGG wins more, but I would watch IriS any day over forGG. He plays way more entertaining games, even if he loses to stupid shit now and then and I bang my head against the keyboard for it. He has that "fuck it" style in every match-up.
forGG will always wait for units if he finds a strong defence, mass up and then attack. IriS now and then just stims and pulls brilliant micro, risking the result of the game in one move maybe, but make it more entertaining and just catching lots of players with their pants down.
Actually, I wholeheartedly agree with this.
IriS is definitely one of my favourite players, and possibly my favourite player altogether.
I really like watching him play.
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This is a far cry from being loyal to your home city. That geography doesn't exist in Starcraft. A bandwagoner is a stereotypically annoying bastard that cheers for some team he has no logical connection too except that they've become good recently. That CJ didn't win the last proleague (I think it was SKT1 right?) is evidence of Hot_Bid being a fan, not a bandwagoner.
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Groupthink x 5001 going on in here.
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On October 20 2009 13:32 barthos wrote:
This is a far cry from being loyal to your home city. That geography doesn't exist in Starcraft
Geography doesn't exist in starcraft? What about half of all Draco fans? Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed the article, although I am reminded that I hold Much in a special place for his PvZ. Yes, you read that right. Much[gm]'s PvZ. Oh, and I like (but not love) Nsp_Flower for his hilarious zodiac build when he made it to the MST and failed. Aside from those two, I'm quite a bandwagoner. I find myself appreciating nearly all of the top players, for no particular reason.
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I'm still supporting WeMade regardless. Even if Wemade doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of making it to the playoffs after 5 rounds, I still take great pleasure in watching the team randomly upset the favorites. Always fun to watch.
Now Nada you need to get back in form soon.
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[Red]Nada all the way since 2002 <333
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i'm gonna be honest hotbid, this is the best article i have ever read on teamliquid, and really elucidates a lot of things about TL that really annoy me
A+
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bandwagoning isnt so bad because fans who just follow are better than no fans at all. we need more fans of esports
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Well you do not have to love and cheer for the best player or team. Fans choose a team mostly because of they got player they love, or the teammanager they cheer for. Beeing a fan of someone is a personal thing
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10/10 great read, fan boy!
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On October 20 2009 07:11 Plexa wrote:Not in the slightest, why should i be? This doesn't contradict anything riptide/myself said in BBW
Oceania has always been at war with East Asia. Simple question of doublethink à la christian astronomy
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I agree with almost everything you wrote. Good article and props for voicing a (seemingly) unpopular opinion on a big stage.
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United States42251 Posts
On October 20 2009 00:14 Sunyveil wrote:
BackHo is still the best player on the planet in my book.
I started this and I stand by it.
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I can't agree with some parts of the article, I'll prefer Casy's fake against July in 2007 rather than any game from the latest OSL. Maybe I missed something, but current game does not admit genius, only sick macro and very well prepared tactics.
It's just another game and not every noob is welcome to offend a player he know nothing about. Even I don't like Bisu I have to respect him, even if almost all Savior funs will forever hate FBH many of us still respect him.
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for people saying that its stupid to be a fan of whoever is winning at the moment, what about being a fan of whoever is playing really good sc right now? i'm a fan of really impressive starcraft => fan of jaedong!
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United Arab Emirates5091 Posts
true.
but you have to give credit to them as players of that time. in another couple years and we look back at jaedong he might look like some half-baked limp-wristed B-class noob.
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woah... just imagining the kinda play that it would take to make JD look B-class...
i certainly hope that's possible... but my brian hurts just trying to picture it!
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On October 20 2009 20:59 Cyrox wrote:
Beef!
Where is it?
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Micheal Jordan invented dunking. Lebron James is just a power foward who can't shoot the outside ball. Jordan had a 50% field goal percentage. He won 6 championships. What is James? A big whiner.
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Great article, I did expect something bigger but then again - TL.net articles are sometimes so big I can't even read them properly because my concentration goes away
Keep up the good work
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Cj is ok I guess..... but MBC is going to win this year
Though I cant help but cheer for CJ seeing as how I met a lot of them at Blizzcon.
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On October 20 2009 11:41 meegrean wrote:
I'm a fanboy of whoever delivers the best results and at the moment, that is Jaedong.
This is SO 3 months ago.
Well, in 1939 it would be wise to think "hey let's bandwagon Hitler, coz he's winning". Hard to believe the french and some others actually fell for this.
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Recognizing that players now are better than players back then is not disrespecting old progammers... saying that they are shit is disrespectful...
old players cant seem to adapt to the new styles, that does not give you the right to disrespect them.
anyway, it was a good read. I have to admit that we have to keep it real sometimes but you know what? Nal_Ra kicks ass...
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So the guy name Hot_Bid doesn't like boxer, he doesn't like michael Jackson, he doesn't like people who like boxer. Why do we care.. and why this article get to be in the front page??
Worst article from teamliquid so far....
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On October 20 2009 00:02 Hot_Bid wrote:
CJ is going to win proleague this year. There's still room -- hop on.
seriously guys the water's fine
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On October 22 2009 01:18 pedduck wrote:
So the guy name Hot_Bid doesn't like boxer, he doesn't like michael Jackson, he doesn't like people who like boxer. Why do we care.. and why this article get to be in the front page??
Worst article from teamliquid so far....
+1
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/Column/BandwagonL.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/Column/whoisthis.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/Column/dreamer.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/Column/winnersleaguefinals.jpg)
