EPTWhy do you automatically assume T and P are playing in the dark, and Z has maphack?
[SC2] Macromanagement in Starcraft II - Page 5
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
Why do you automatically assume T and P are playing in the dark, and Z has maphack? | ||
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integral
United States3156 Posts
Another thing to remember is that if Z instead drops a second hatch, the ability to rapidly throw 30 drones at the second expo will very quickly erase that mineral advantage T tried to get. Since that second hatch also gives Z a ridiculous supply of extra larvae, this means T/P dropping a quick second base may actually put them further BEHIND the race to a huge army, even if they get it up before Z, since Z is going to be earning back mineral cost faster at a brand new expo (more drones faster) and then gets such a huge larvae boost for immediately building a huge army (which it can once again delay to the last second). I feel certain an expansion algorithm based on the same input chill's graphs are based on would prove that though zerg can take (and populate) more bases faster, in a race-to-most-minerals terran and protoss would still be ahead most of the time. The only additional factor would be the build times for each race's respective CC/Nexus and their mechanics -- each respective expansion will follow the same exact dynamic the initial base did. More drones does not necessarily equal more minerals like it would in SC1. | ||
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oo_xerox
United States852 Posts
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eshlow
United States5210 Posts
On September 12 2009 10:10 Zato-1 wrote:As to whether there are extra minerals: Yes, I understand 1-hatch + queen can spend minerals faster than 1 Nexus / CC. However, T and P can spend those "extra" minerals that they can't spend on their initial Nexus / CC, either in their military buildings or getting an expansion, which will allow them to catch up to 1-hatch queen build in terms of worker production, i.e. how fast you can spend your minerals for additional workers. Except they can't spend for an extra CC or nexus because zerg have OVERLORDS which will spot an economical build. Since they have more military production (think 14 initial lings over 6 in SC plus an extra 12 coming in 25s), how do you suppose a toss is going to defend this? Terran can wall for sure, and can build CC in main and float. Zerg can just plop down another hatchery and out power. This is shown in this article, and HB's. My point was, if all you're doing is racing to 30 workers like Chill's model assumes, P and T have a whole bunch of minerals left over- this means the model isn't fair to those 2 races because they can get a whole bunch of stuff with those minerals that the model doesn't consider (one of these things they could get would be an expansion- I'd be interested to see the model in a race to 60 workers or so, assuming the races expand whenever their mineral stores allow). HotBid's article went over this. Zerg gets to 60 workers when toss/terran get to 40. With expansions. You, sir, are also assuming that the Zerg has perfect scouting and their opponent has no scouting. Sure, if we're playing rock-paper-scissors and I get to play after I see your hand, I'll always win! That's not how it goes, though. Yes, Zerg has overlords. T has floating barracks, medivac, reapers, scan- several ways to scan after speedlings kill the first SCV. Protoss can get a phoenix or an observer. I'm also not sure how long the scouting overlords can stay alive hidden on a ledge in SC2. 1. Zerg have significantly better scouting early game. Scouting is practically denied for toss/terran after a couple lings get out. 2a. So now you're floating rax... how are you going to get military to defend your expansion? 2b. All the rest of those units (both terran and toss) are FAR up the tech tree and cost significant amounts of gas. 3. Toss can't kill the overlord without tech; smart zerg players will keep lings outside their nat/main and overlord close by on cliffs. Units can't attack up cliffs unless they have vision. We're not talking about amateurs here. We are trying to discuss this game on a high level of play... aka professional play. We all want SC2 to be viable in E-sports so it has to be balanced. There are VERY few pros who will lose to a build they have scouted. Consider that. | ||
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nobodyhome
United States139 Posts
If it is true that you can generate ~200 additional minerals per minute with the mule, then, since an extra orbital command only costs 400+150=550, the cost would be made up for within 3 minutes (although 3 minutes isn't quite negligible, it isn't long either). Thus, an extra advantage that this would allow is that it gives Terrans similar options to the Zerg, if Terran are able to wall in to prevent scouting: Is the Terran building another OC and mule (powering up with drones), or is he spending his money immediately on troops (using larvae for troops instead of drones)? Another thing: I don't see that Dark Obelisks would ONLY be used for the macro mechanic. You could always build more than one, and then the extra ones would serve as the shield or mana rechargers, if needed (although the ratio is going to have to be better than 1 mana for 2 energy if it's going to come to that). | ||
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Conquest101
United States1395 Posts
On September 12 2009 10:17 Zato-1 wrote: All the posts criticizing my own make the same assumption: Zerg gets to see what T/P is doing, plays the appropriate counter, T/P doesn't see it coming, Z wins! Why do you automatically assume T and P are playing in the dark, and Z has maphack? Because apparently they are? Chill and Hotbid have both emphasized the problem with scouting the zerg by other races. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On September 12 2009 10:11 Conquest101 wrote:Also, don't forget that by the time you have another nexus + CC zerg will easily have a 2nd hatch + 2nd queen, thus only compounding the issue. Wrong. Remember all those spare minerals T and P have? And that Z doesn't have? An expansion costs minerals. With minerals, you can get one. Without minerals, you don't. That simple. | ||
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integral
United States3156 Posts
On September 12 2009 10:18 eshlow wrote: HotBid's article went over this. Zerg gets to 60 workers when toss/terran get to 40. With expansions. They did that test with an irrelevant understanding of how mechanics work in SC2. edit: or rather, that "test" proved nothing, I can't speak to their understanding. With the new macro mechanics, # of workers != mineral mining rate. | ||
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eshlow
United States5210 Posts
This is from HotBid's article which apparently you forgot or gloss over Larvae injection leads to more drones than P or T can make. I remember Chill and I just built workers for the first few minutes of the game (he went 14cc and I went 2 hatch + Queen) and the supply count was 60-40 in my favor. edit: On September 12 2009 10:21 integral wrote: They did that test with an irrelevant understanding of how mechanics work in SC2. With the new macro mechanics, # of workers != mineral mining rate. So you're comparing an extra... what 200-300 (x2) minerals per Chill's article with an extra 20 workers? Zerg will have another base by then, so they won't be saturated. I'm pretty sure another 20 workers on an extra base outweighs 2 mules. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On September 12 2009 10:19 Conquest101 wrote: Because apparently they are? Chill and Hotbid have both emphasized the problem with scouting the zerg by other races. And yet Karune claims this is not true. Forgive me for believing the person who plays the game every damn day and beats the crap out of fans in events over the people who only get to play it every few months. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25993 Posts
On September 12 2009 09:39 eshlow wrote: Chill: there is something you forgot about your build. Using the minerals you have you want to have another queen hatched by the time your second hatchery is up ready to inject larva. This is definitely feasible within the time constrains of your charts (probably around 300-350s or so). Thus, the zerg is only going to get stronger at about ~5 minutes into the game once the second hatch pops. 200s: Plop down an extra hatchery after 1st queen is being made 225s: Build another queen PLUS it will be there for extra defense... how nice 300s: Hatch pops and second queen can inject larva. At 300-350s, zerg will be able to power more than the chart suggests especially with a hatch at the main AND nat. No saturation of drones gives significant more minerals than predicted by your algorithm, plus significantly more production. There is no second anything in this model, no second hatchery, no expansion, nothing. I mean we will just end up analyzing this cyclically (If Zerg expands, so will Protoss. If Zerg expands too early, Terran can attack with X units). To avoid this problem, I just showed what happens in the simplest form of the game. I agree though, with expansions the problem just compounds. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On September 12 2009 10:24 Avidkeystamper wrote: You know how protoss always complain about how they can't scout the zerg's strategy early game? Now hive zerglings automatic speed boost + range. Perhaps that is how it looks to you. From what I read from the folks who most know the game, scouting is actually easier in SC2. I don't expect to convince anyone with this, just establish reasonable doubt. | ||
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Conquest101
United States1395 Posts
On September 12 2009 10:20 Zato-1 wrote: Wrong. Remember all those spare minerals T and P have? And that Z doesn't have? An expansion costs minerals. With minerals, you can get one. Without one, you don't. That simple. Check the graph again please. At approx. 200+ secs zerg has 300 mineral's banked. What is a zerg going to do with those 300 minerals, assuming a macro build? Expand. What is a terran/protoss going to do? They CANNOT expand because they will DIE to lings. Remember, the zerg has a pool up. And all those injected larvae can build lings OR drones. However many CC's/Nexii the the opponent gets will not save them if they CAN'T build military units. Consequently, the toss/terran cannot invest in an expansion as early as the zerg can. Read Karune's reply again. Although he misses the point of the question directed at him, he does bring up an interesting issue. Look at all the shit the Toss has to do to NOT OUTRIGHT DIE to a zerg all-in after a pool first/queen build. What if, in that situation, as many of the posters commented, the zerg didn't all in, and instead built drones, only building lings/hydras at the last second to fend off pressure from the toss. Do you see how behind the toss would be? | ||
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eshlow
United States5210 Posts
On September 12 2009 10:25 Chill wrote: There is no second anything in this model, no second hatchery, no expansion, nothing. I mean we will just end up analyzing this cyclically (If Zerg expands, so will Protoss. If Zerg expands too early, Terran can attack with X units). To avoid this problem, I just showed what happens in the simplest form of the game. I agree though, with expansions the problem just compounds. True. Can't wait for the beta, haha. On a side note: are you going to be playing the beta? I'd love to see if you or other community members are going to try to hash out timings and exploit the Q macro mechanic (even if it is nerfed). | ||
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integral
United States3156 Posts
On September 12 2009 10:22 eshlow wrote: So you're comparing an extra... what 200-300 (x2) minerals per Chill's article with an extra 20 workers? Zerg will have another base by then, so they won't be saturated. They reported solely on the number of workers, not on the minerals mined or spent. You're assuming way more than you can and building a weak model as a result. If you want to point to the number of workers that zerg has while excluding all other factors such as total minerals gathered and the derivative of the income curve, go right ahead, but that argument has no merit. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On September 12 2009 10:28 Conquest101 wrote: Check the graph again please. At approx. 200+ secs zerg has 300 mineral's banked. What is a zerg going to do with those 300 minerals, assuming a macro build? Expand. What is a terran/protoss going to do? They CANNOT expand because they will DIE to lings. Remember, the zerg has a pool up. And all those injected larvae can build lings OR drones. However many CC's/Nexii the the opponent gets will not save them if they CAN'T build military units. Consequently, the toss/terran cannot invest in an expansion as early as the zerg can. Read Karune's reply again. Although he misses the point of the question directed at him, he does bring up an interesting issue. Look at all the shit the Toss has to do to NOT OUTRIGHT DIE to a zerg all-in after a pool first/queen build. What if, in that situation, as many of the posters commented, the zerg didn't all in, and instead built drones, only building lings/hydras at the last second to fend off pressure from the toss. Do you see how behind the toss would be? Sigh. All the Queen gives the Zerg is more production capacity, which can be emulated with barracks/CC or Gateways/Nexii. Yes, Terran and Protoss have to get around to building those. And yet by balancing the building times and building costs, it's easy to give them a balanced production capacity. In fact, I suspect they have a balanced production capacity already, this game's been tested for months and months. Two days of testing by fans does not compare. | ||
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Teejing
Germany1360 Posts
For comparison, a worker mines on a free mineral patch 5x5 minerals in 30sec, given there are 8 mineral crystals per Base( battle reports...), a 1x saturated base provides 5x5x8= 200 minerals/30sec (estimation) a 2x saturated base provides 8x5x8= 320 minerals/30sec (estimation) a 3x saturated base provides 10x5x8= 400 minerals/30sec (estimation) Terran Mule provides like 120 minerals/30sec (estimation) Protoss Obelisk 1min+/run making Protoss base more effective, resulting in 1x saturated base providing +40min/30sec 2x saturated base provides +64min/30sec 3x saturated base provides +80min/30sec Well the Zergs one costs 200min/30sec, but the benefits add up as long as the drones stay alive. Also it play a role where drones go to work, a saturated or a new base. Going into maximum drone pumping we get, 1) -200 for + 50min 2) -200 for +100min 3) -200 for +150min 4) -200 for +200min 5) -200 for +250min By this time you actually lost 150min. In comaprison Terran made 600min bonus which results in terran having 750min more than Z, lets add another 350 Zerg will need to expand because of all those drones, Terran is ahead 1100minerals. Zerg on the other hand Zerg makes now +320min/30sec due to those +20 extra drones + expansion, Terra still only get +120/30sec. So this leads me to the question, does obelsik charge really only adds up 1 more mineral per worker run? Terran Mule sounds like 2x as good. | ||
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eshlow
United States5210 Posts
On September 12 2009 10:33 integral wrote: They reported solely on the number of workers, not on the minerals mined or spent. You're assuming way more than you can and building a weak model as a result. If you want to point to the number of workers that zerg has while excluding all other factors such as total minerals gathered and the derivative of the income curve, go right ahead, but that argument has no merit. Orbital command = 150 (x2) Extra hatch = 300 It's pretty obvious that Z outpaces P/T once the economy gets up in running via the models but whatever. | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27162 Posts
On September 12 2009 10:35 Zato-1 wrote: Sigh. All the Queen gives the Zerg is more production capacity, which can be emulated with barracks/CC or Gateways/Nexii. Yes, Terran and Protoss have to get around to building those. And yet by balancing the building times and building costs, it's easy to give them a balanced production capacity. In fact, I suspect they have a balanced production capacity already, this game's been tested for months and months. Two days of testing by fans does not compare. Then you have nothing to worry about then. Relax and wait for the beta. | ||
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