|
On July 30 2009 06:19 So no fek wrote:
There's certainly risks in the NKVD disguising themselves as rebels, however, I think that's the entire point of their role and the rebels not knowing each other. To throw a wrench into things. The ability to disguise yourself as a townie/another blue is nearly worthless. If you're rolechecked by an NKVD, you're safe to kill - the only reason they wouldn't kill you is if you disguised yourself as a townie, and they'd rather leave a townie alive and look for a red to kill - other than that, the only benefit of the ability is to disguise yourself as blue, and cause as much havoc as you possibly can.
They cant, because they wont have a good kill list until they meet up together. They must use all of their KP killing anyone DTed as non ukranian. And everytime they DT an ukranian they will need to check it. And that will happen more times if our DTS disguise as ukranians.
|
sigh. You must be really slow in the head. Rebels don't need to RC anyone. They can ask 2 simple fucking questions and be done with it. GG NKVD agent. NKVD Agent role claims to the town that X is a Rebel and X just says he's an undercover NKVD Agent too. This is the reason why it makes no sense for anyone to be posing as a Ukrainian.
|
somebody wants to get modkilled Someone wants a hug :3.
If Agents are always green why would the Rebels kill them every time when every game peopel have been bitching about blue hunting? Makes no sense.
If rebels RC someone who isn't blue, the immediate response is to kill them because they aren't blue. Mafia have a time limit, their weakness is self-killing. the moment they know someone isn't them, he's on the chopping block. Why would i take the effort to RC someone, find out they're not mafia, then NOT kill them? Why would I waste KP like that?
It's never a good idea trading 1 for 1 in a game when no one can be confirmed. Ever. Pretty much any townie can be confirmed by a dying NKVD since there is no cover in this game. 1 trade is -1Kp/day if not more.
Hi, who did you kill last night? O no one, cool. I'll wait till tomorrow night. They aren't going to get hasty. You are essentially saying OMG WE CAN PREVENT THEM FROM BEING ORGANIZED! when it just costs us some Agents. When the total number of roles in the game is revealed then they all know o ok, there's only 1 or 2 left. Time to start getting trigger happy.
See, that's the thing, you're assuming that ukranians are going to rolecheck correctly on the first night (because otherwise my day 3-4 timeframe is 100% correct), miss medics/veterans and not kill each other off during that 3 blind night period and hope that NKVD have not identified medics, because if they do they can have themselves protected and give us assured targets. After which, mafia are still behind in information because their rings will be smaller and delayed in being set up. At that point, we can switch our NKVD agents to whatever we want. If we want them to switch green, sure. The chances that someone is RCed twice is hilariously low until the game wears on, and if that's the case, we don't trade 1:1. We trade 3:1 or higher given that ukranian RCs are KILLS DENIED.
|
On July 30 2009 06:19 So no fek wrote:
There's certainly risks in the NKVD disguising themselves as rebels, however, I think that's the entire point of their role and the rebels not knowing each other. To throw a wrench into things. The ability to disguise yourself as a townie/another blue is nearly worthless.
And Ace just explained why the ability to disguise yourself as a rebel is also worthless, because a rebel will find out what you really are through the kill list.
Ok, to be fair, it's not completely worthless. You can get a rebel who RC'ed you to tell on himself and MAYBE he gets killed- if you can prove he's not another NKVD, which you can't. On the other hand, you throw a wrench on the work of your fellow NKVD agents who are trying to find rebels, because anyone who comes up as rebel will claim to be NKVD.
Is this tradeoff worthwhile? I'm thinking no.
|
If rebels RC someone who isn't blue, the immediate response is to kill them because they aren't blue. Mafia have a time limit, their weakness is self-killing. the moment they know someone isn't them, he's on the chopping block. Why would i take the effort to RC someone, find out they're not mafia, then NOT kill them? Why would I waste KP like that?
Why would you trust anyone that can't answer 2 questions? If you're not a Rebel you're better off hoping they have more targets. If you flip Rebel you WILL be questioned. Once you can't answer those 2 questions you die. There is no escape from that. If the goal is to survive the time limit why are you putting yourself in harm's way?. Just sit tight and don't try and be brave. You can't infiltrate the network, a roleclaim doesn't work and you just die for drawing attention to yourself.
Pretty much any townie can be confirmed by a dying NKVD since there is no cover in this game. 1 trade is -1Kp/day if not more.
Um...no. If the NKVD agent dies, and says he investigated X all we know is that he really was an Agent. X still has the defense that he was an undercover NKVD Agent also. The dead Agent's death can't confirm or deny this.
See, that's the thing, you're assuming that ukranians are going to rolecheck correctly on the first night (because otherwise my day 3-4 timeframe is 100% correct), miss medics/veterans and not kill each other off during that 3 blind night period and hope that NKVD have not identified medics, because if they do they can have themselves protected and give us assured targets. After which, mafia are still behind in information because their rings will be smaller and delayed in being set up. At that point, we can switch our NKVD agents to whatever we want. If we want them to switch green, sure. The chances that someone is RCed twice is hilariously low until the game wears on, and if that's the case, we don't trade 1:1. We trade 3:1 or higher given that ukranian RCs are KILLS DENIED.
Not at all. If there is 0 contact between any of them they just keep on RCing. It doesn't matter if they get it on Day 1 or Day 2. It's what happens once the NKVD agent gets confronted - they are dead. They don't even need to care about NKVD Agents finding Medics - why would they? Once they know he's not legit they just tell whoever else they know is Rebel to stack hits on him. He is DEAD. You're logic is also off. How can the Ukrainians be behind in information when they have RCs that are infinite and we have no way of confirming anyone? Eventually they will organize, but trying to stop them from organizing by sacrificing Agents when all we need to do is survive is foolish - ESPECIALLY when they can also claim to be an undercover Agent. The plan is flawed, get over it. Seriously if I was a Rebel this game I'd be praying all the NKVD Agents go undercover, investigate me and present themselves nicely gift wrapped because they have no idea what I know at any point in time. I'd get all of them killed asap and move on with the game.
|
Ace, or you are really wrong and too proudly to realize, or you are just fucking with us.
Is way better have NKVD disguised:
They reduce KP
They may live longer
They keeps mafia from banding so easy
If a mafia RC him and discover him he would have an extra target for the town
The flaws are in yur words:
Is to easy to check :WRONG, is easyer to check townie, you dont need to PM him.
Its risky : WRONG, is safer for the town as they cut KP, is safer for them as they could live another day.
Do you plan to get to the time limit just by luck?
I would preffer having chances on our side, it is a huge plus.
|
Havo to go to work. Back in like 4 hours
VOTE FOR ME, I KNOW WHAT I AM DOING.
|
Everyone seems so focused on survival and the time limit. I just pmed caller and he basically said that he's not going to say what the time limit is or what the kills needed are.
This leaves two possibilities:
1. the kill count and time limit are set, caller just isn't telling us
2. caller hasn't decided what they are yet and will decide later based on how the game plays out. In the back of my mind, there's the possibility he's planning on using that as a way out of hosting the last day or two when the game becomes very one sided
Therefore, I propose we approach the game like the traditional game: all mafia need to die for a win
Ace's plan of not posing as rebels relies so heavily on playing the defensive and letting the clock run out. A successful undercover run for three days could slow them down and give tons of information when its most important, the end game.
|
On July 30 2009 06:53 coltrane wrote:
VOTE FOR ME, I KNOW WHAT I AM DOING.
sounds legit
|
Why would you trust anyone that can't answer 2 questions? If you're not a Rebel you're better off hoping they have more targets. If you flip Rebel you WILL be questioned. Once you can't answer those 2 questions you die. There is no escape from that. If the goal is to survive the time limit why are you putting yourself in harm's way?. Just sit tight and don't try and be brave. You can't infiltrate the network, a roleclaim doesn't work and you just die for drawing attention to yourself. Why would an NKVD agent not answer, then simply say that their shot was blocked, or pick someone who's very likely to die the next day.
The act of forcing the rebels to check kills, and kill themselves if their kills are blocked+ force them to wait for day 3 to be confirmed is huge. DTs aren't likely to RC more than 1 mafia anyways, which means that when Day 4 rolls around they can just go public and their death is actually a PLUS given that it confirms their information. The main 'currency' we gain from DTs is the DELAYED formation of rings AND CONFIRMED TOWN members, not confirmed mafia. Once we have a SINGLE CONFIRMED PERSON the amount of options we have available to us increases dramatically because we can have pretty much everyone claim to him.
Simply check your numbers. Assume a number of DTs. Assume a number of mafia. Determine the proportion of each that will be checking successfully and run it all down; this is a net benefit to us.
Um...no. If the NKVD agent dies, and says he investigated X all we know is that he really was an Agent. X still has the defense that he was an undercover NKVD Agent also. The dead Agent's death can't confirm or deny this. Wrong. See above. We know a FUCKTON more, especially if the agent has also investigated someone who isn't a rebel (which are probably going to be at 4:1 odds).
If there is 0 contact between any of them they just keep on RCing. It doesn't matter if they get it on Day 1 or Day 2. It's what happens once the NKVD agent gets confronted - they are dead. They don't even need to care about NKVD Agents finding Medics - why would they? So basically you're saying that mafia need to keep RCing until they find another mafia, which is around a 20% chance. By your estimation, town won't even get HIT until day 3-4, which is obvious jokes. They NEED to care about NKVD agents finding ANYONE prior to them because when the NKVD agent goes supernova he's giving the town a confirmed claim trumpcard.
we have no way of confirming anyone? Well, we do. Agent flips, he's confirmed any non-rebel he has checked. I've said this before. Story not being straight here.
I'd be praying all the NKVD Agents go undercover, investigate me and present themselves The reverse is also true. A free mafia claim if Agents aren't contacting their targets is an assured kill for us. Basically Falcynn is 100% correct. this makes even Rebel/Rebel checks dangerous for rebels, and prevents them from sharing information properly until a confirm check is done which CAN be skirted by an agent if he contacts his target and has him claim hit.
And now I am going home (am at school). Might not be able to post for a few hours.
|
My plan relies on people not being stupid as it always does. When you can point out in any game any time my plan has EVER been wrong and not been the right path to victory then you can question me. I dare any of you to find such a time. I'll wait.
|
L when you can prove that NKVD/NKVD checks with both being possible Rebels can be avoided and the town can sift through the lies then you can discuss a plan with me. As of now all of you are acting on so many assumptions that are easily crushed by any competent Rebel that it's laughable. I'm kind of wishing I was a Rebel now so I could prove to you guys how to catch an undercover Agent.
|
Basically, if NKVD do not contact their targets as a rule, rebels finding rebels cannot safely talk to each other upon fear of being confirmed blue, while our NKVD are free to check for town aligned players. This also prevents ukranians from mass pming people with "lol i checked you".
|
L when you can prove that NKVD/NKVD checks with both being possible Rebels can be avoided Done.
I'm going home now.
|
On July 30 2009 07:02 L wrote:
Basically, if NKVD do not contact their targets as a rule, rebels finding rebels cannot safely talk to each other upon fear of being confirmed blue, while our NKVD are free to check for town aligned players. This also prevents ukranians from mass pming people with "lol i checked you".
yes they can. Rebels will always talk to any blue they find. Hence, any NKVD dressed as blue will be contacted whether they want to or not. At this point if you assume everyone followed your rule SURE it confirms the Rebel as guilty BUT the Rebel always has the defense that he is also an undercover NKVD Agent and was contacted first.
How do you find out who is the liar?
Come on, THINK the entire scenario through and stop assuming everyone is dumb to the point they can't realize they have a simple alibi that fucks the town over.
|
On July 30 2009 07:02 Ace wrote:
L when you can prove that NKVD/NKVD checks with both being possible Rebels can be avoided and the town can sift through the lies then you can discuss a plan with me. As of now all of you are acting on so many assumptions that are easily crushed by any competent Rebel that it's laughable. I'm kind of wishing I was a Rebel now so I could prove to you guys how to catch an undercover Agent.
sorry, but what a pompuos fuck., You should be discussing plans WITH THE TOWN, you are no one, i dont care if you are vet and i am newb, YOU ARE WRONG, YOU ARE DIVIDING THE TOWN, YOUR BEHAVIOR ISNT TO BE TRUSTED.
Gonna tell this once again
I havent played ever with any of you, and i dont trust anyone and i dont have any prejudgment. I dont care if you are a vet or a newb, and thats exactly why all of you should be voting for me.
|
From how this discussion is going, I'm guessing some NKVD agents will pose as rebels, others won't. Hell, coltrane or L could be agents, and they don't look like they're going to be convinced (and Ace most definitely won't).
Beware, Town, everyone's pulling in different directions -_-
|
On July 30 2009 07:05 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2009 07:02 L wrote:
Basically, if NKVD do not contact their targets as a rule, rebels finding rebels cannot safely talk to each other upon fear of being confirmed blue, while our NKVD are free to check for town aligned players. This also prevents ukranians from mass pming people with "lol i checked you". yes they can. Rebels will always talk to any blue they find. Hence, any NKVD dressed as blue will be contacted whether they want to or not. At this point if you assume everyone followed your rule SURE it confirms the Rebel as guilty BUT the Rebel always has the defense that he is also an undercover NKVD Agent and was contacted first. How do you find out who is the liar? Come on, THINK the entire scenario through and stop assuming everyone is dumb to the point they can't realize they have a simple alibi that fucks the town over.
easy, you ask for any information of both, then you lynch one and mafia kills the other, or you lynch both. is a 1:1 trade anyway, and it is good.
|
Ahh how I missed Ace and L in the same game ^_^ I still believe that NKVD posing as ukrainians wouldn't be worth it, but I guess that I'll continue observing the discussion. Ace still seems to be the most convincing to me.
|
On July 30 2009 07:07 coltrane wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2009 07:02 Ace wrote:
L when you can prove that NKVD/NKVD checks with both being possible Rebels can be avoided and the town can sift through the lies then you can discuss a plan with me. As of now all of you are acting on so many assumptions that are easily crushed by any competent Rebel that it's laughable. I'm kind of wishing I was a Rebel now so I could prove to you guys how to catch an undercover Agent. sorry, but what a pompuos fuck., You should be discussing plans WITH THE TOWN, you are no one, i dont care if you are vet and i am newb, YOU ARE WRONG, YOU ARE DIVIDING THE TOWN, YOUR BEHAVIOR ISNT TO BE TRUSTED. Gonna tell this once again I havent played ever with any of you, and i dont trust anyone and i dont have any prejudgment. I dont care if you are a vet or a newb, and thats exactly why all of you should be voting for me.
hows that election going for you? LOL
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
