[GG] Red Army Mafia - Page 13

On July 30 2009 05:23 Ace wrote:
yep. Between your math that makes no sense because it works on some retarded assumptions like every NKVD agent getting lucky with checks, and information not spreading really fast (which it does) and the fact you don't know how many roles are present - to this. Trying to convince NKVD agents to go undercover when they'd have a hell of a time convincing the town their target is a rebel and they'd have to find the dumbest Ukrainian around to let them in AND survive.

This is why you won't be elected. You can't even think through the most basic of scenarios.

On July 30 2009 05:33 Ace wrote:
of course the NKVD agent won't lie about the results of his role check.

But if all of them are undercover and an NKVD agent checks another NKVD agent the guy flips Rebel. So now we are about to lynch 2 NKVD Agents.

Of course the same exact thing happens if an NKVD Agent RCs a Rebel. Of course it's even worse this time because the NKVD Agent will be killed immediately assuming the Ukrainians aren't stupid. They don't have to RC him right away - just ask him who he killed previously and who he will kill the next night.

In both situations the NKVD agent loses or everyone has an option to lie that takes even more time to disprove. No one has yet to answer how you sort through the liars because there is the case that both people are telling the truth, both are innocent but since both of them went undercover they both appear guilty. Ukrainians win.

On July 30 2009 05:37 L wrote:
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As for Ace's last post: you've essentially summed up why our DTs are going to want to play rebel (ALL OF THEM). If we can make it very hard for mafia to team up, we force mafia self-killing. Any NKVD agent that gets into a ring gains a huge amount of information, and our risk/reward goes from 1 NKVD:1Ukranian to 1NKVD:1Ring. The slower mafia play, and the more information they gather, the more we would want our DTs rolling rebel. The only possible shit-scenario would be NKVD finding each other, but that's where people need to bust out their behavioral analysis hats and get to work.

On July 30 2009 05:49 Falcynn wrote:
I wish I could say something here to help argue why having NKVD agents pose as Ukrainians is a bad idea...but I think Ace has pretty much covered all of the reasons. Probably the only advantage I can see is that the threat of the detectives doing this will cause the Ukrainians to hesitate in contacting each other after a successful role check. Considering the fact that the town already has a pretty big advantage, doing this can arguably be worth the detectives time as it stalls any form of organization between the Ukrainians.

However, I think anyone who thinks that the detectives can easily infiltrate a decently sized portion of the network are seriously underestimating how smart these guys can be. Just the threat of DTs posing as Ukrainians is going to make them a hell of a lot more cautious in terms of who they trust. Verifying someone as Ukrainian is, as Ace mentioned, as easy as asking them who they killed the previous night or who they'll kill the next night. The detective would have to be incredibly lucky to get either of these questions correct, and if he doesn't he'll be killed. Basically he'll go through all of this work to get just a single Ukrainian, which can easily be done without all of this pretending.

In short, I'm in favor of NKVD posing as Ukrainian, but I'm heavily against this idea of them trying to infiltrate the network as it'll just be a waste of time and effort on their part imo.

On July 30 2009 05:53 Ace wrote:



come on L, let's be serious here. In fact assume I'm a Ukrainian Rebel and you're an NKVD agent. do you REALLY think you'd ever successfully convince me you really are a Rebel and that you could get me to give up information about what I know and then get me lynched?

The plan only works assuming our enemies are completely fucking stupid. I'm not playing the game based on that because it's an epic fail. Watch the NKVD agents all try it and all die. I guarantee it if the Rebels are even half competent.

come on L, let's be serious here. In fact assume I'm a Ukrainian Rebel and you're an NKVD agent. do you REALLY think you'd ever successfully convince me you really are a Rebel and that you could get me to give up information about what I know and then get me lynched?

On July 30 2009 05:39 Scamp wrote:
Well that situation of the two NKVD agents targeting each other would be unfortunate but unlikely.

Besides, the point isn't to take out one Ukranian. The point is to infiltrate a group in order to take out a bunch of them. I don't think I'd want to start hitting people if I were in a Ukranian group of two or three, so getting "confirmed" by killing someone wouldn't be a problem until later.

On July 30 2009 06:00 Ace wrote:


Impossible to call. No idea how the NKVD agents individually select who they want to Role Check. you can't get IN the group - that's the problem. Once again think of it basically like this:

Ace - NKVD Agent
Scamp - Ukrainian Rebel

Ace - o hai scamp, I checked you out. You're Rebel, so am I! <3
Scamp - o ok. cool. This is L and coltrane, their rebels too. Sup?
Ace - lol newbs I'm an Agent. GG.

Do you really think you'd do that?

or is it more like this:

Ace -o hai scamp, I checked you out. You're Rebel, so am I! <3
Scamp - that's nice hoe. Who did you kill last night?
Ace - oh I killed...um...Foolishness. (I have no idea who really did so I'm guessing)
Scamp(who knows the truth because he knows who killed Foolishness) - o ok. Well I can't trust you yet so who are you going to kill tomorrow night?
Ace - um...I'll kill LucasWoj!
Scamp - ok well when Lucas shows up dead I'll let you know!

2 problems already fucks the Agent over:
I die immediately because Scamp knows the truth and kills me.
I survive till the next day but Lucas doesn't die unless I get super lucky. If he doesn't I'm killed. The best I could do is roleclaim to the town that I'm an NKVD agent and found Scamp.
Scamp of course says he's also an NKVD Agent and was undercover also.

How do you sort through the liars? Even worse - what if Scamp really is an NKVD agent.

Come on, I know what I'm talking about here. You guys are assuming the Rebels are so dumb as not to ask 2 simple questions which would destroy any NKVD agent without a lot of information ahead of time.

On July 30 2009 05:53 Ace wrote:



come on L, let's be serious here. In fact assume I'm a Ukrainian Rebel and you're an NKVD agent. do you REALLY think you'd ever successfully convince me you really are a Rebel and that you could get me to give up information about what I know and then get me lynched?

The plan only works assuming our enemies are completely fucking stupid. I'm not playing the game based on that because it's an epic fail. Watch the NKVD agents all try it and all die. I guarantee it if the Rebels are even half competent.

On July 30 2009 05:56 L wrote:
There won't be networks if all the NKVD are posing as rebels. That's the entire point. By the time ukranians can successfully check themselves, we'll be on day 3 and their time limit will be blowing by. Similarly, Ace's theory that a Ukranian can ask for prior kill and future kill is substantially harmed by the fact that the prior kill doesn't exist due to the fact that the "Rebel" used a check the night before, and that a medic can catch the following hit. If any of that 'luck' happens, we have 2 ukranians who essentially kill themselves for us.