EPTIs better for town if NKVD appears as ukranian to DT cuz that way mafia gets less info from their DTS and town gets the exact same info.
[GG] Red Army Mafia - Page 11
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coltrane
Chile988 Posts
Is better for town if NKVD appears as ukranian to DT cuz that way mafia gets less info from their DTS and town gets the exact same info. | ||
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clazziquai
6685 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 30 2009 01:52 coltrane wrote: I am reminding in this page again: Is better for town if NKVD appears as ukranian to DT cuz that way mafia gets less info from their DTS and town gets the exact same info. Well... what happens when an NKVD checks an NKVD posing as an Ukrainian? If all NKVDs pose as Ukrainians, how can you ever trust in an Ukrainian rolecheck? Or are you planning on just getting them all killed and hoping that none of them is an NKVD agent? I'm not completely convinced if the gains outweigh the losses. | ||
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~OpZ~
United States3652 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [NKVD Agent Role] + NKVD Agent:You are proud member of People’s Commissariat of the Interior! You search for corrupt rebels once per night, either by tracking the foul capitalist smell of the clues they leave behind, or by contacting NKVD HQ for a role check on a suspicious individual. Be warned, you cannot contact NKVD more than 3 times, they are very busy! You also can disguise your role as NKVD agent to rolechecks, and may change role or keep the same So I'd assume by night 3 all role checks could be used, we'd know more and have a safe list. And Caller didn't restrict role changes/role checks to separate nights like some DT style actions do. Sure, sure, there are holes that need refining but just my outline of a plan to find out more. Edit: On July 30 2009 02:05 Shikyo wrote: Well... what happens when an NKVD checks an NKVD posing as an Ukrainian? If all NKVDs pose as Ukrainians, how can you ever trust in an Ukrainian rolecheck? Or are you planning on just getting them all killed and hoping that none of them is an NKVD agent? I'm not completely convinced if the gains outweigh the losses. Would it matter to lose them after they've used all of their abilities? Just putting it bluntly, after that time period they're only useful if they provide good clue analysis. (Which given the huge hint of knowing they should anyway) But they have no more reason to be targeted based on role, so coming out after that point shouldn't get them killed flat out, seeing as its a waste. So yea, the gains outweigh the losses. Smaller number of NKVD agents than Ukranians, I'm sure, wait til all three rolechecks are used, then...kill someone on the list... | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On July 30 2009 01:20 Caller wrote: ![[image loading]](http://www.robertamsterdam.com/arrest_540.jpg) URGENT ARREST It has come to our attention that we have American spies in our midst. Fortunately, the NKVD has provided us with the information we need to take them out. As of 19 minutes ago, the NKVD has arrested Foolishness and MountainDew for espionage and treason. They will be taken in front of a people's court, where they will bear the full wrath of the Soviet People, and where justice will be delivered. lolololololololololol | ||
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~OpZ~
United States3652 Posts
LucasWoJ: (3) LucasWoJ t_co Chezinu L: (5) ~OpZ~ Ver motbob Kuja900 StorrZerg Ace: (7) teks Siefu Scaramanga iNfuNdiBuLuM Falcynn Last Romantic Zato-1 Person935: (1) Person935 Abstain: (10) fnaticNoname Shikyo ecomania Railxp Malongo Scamp Fishball Plexa softer ItsPaul Coltrane: (1) coltrane Malongo: (1) c.ngeK Not counting MountainDew | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On July 30 2009 02:06 ~OpZ~ wrote: I agree with Coltrane...Although it further annoys are NKVD's making all their role checks questionable....But chance wise, I'm sure we have a small number of NKVD's than Ukranian Rebels...but at any rate, I support the whole, "show as ukranian, use all your checks, tell us all, then march to KIEV" attitude. I mean after the all the checks, you kinda don't have too much of a special role anymore... + Show Spoiler [NKVD Agent Role] + NKVD Agent:You are proud member of People’s Commissariat of the Interior! You search for corrupt rebels once per night, either by tracking the foul capitalist smell of the clues they leave behind, or by contacting NKVD HQ for a role check on a suspicious individual. Be warned, you cannot contact NKVD more than 3 times, they are very busy! You also can disguise your role as NKVD agent to rolechecks, and may change role or keep the same So I'd assume by night 3 all role checks could be used, we'd know more and have a safe list. And Caller didn't restrict role changes/role checks to separate nights like some DT style actions do. Sure, sure, there are holes that need refining but just my outline of a plan to find out more. Edit: Would it matter to lose them after they've used all of their abilities? Just putting it bluntly, after that time period they're only useful if they provide good clue analysis. (Which given the huge hint of knowing they should anyway) But they have no more reason to be targeted based on role, so coming out after that point shouldn't get them killed flat out, seeing as its a waste. So yea, the gains outweigh the losses. Smaller number of NKVD agents than Ukranians, I'm sure, wait til all three rolechecks are used, then...kill someone on the list... this is all wrong  If an KNVD agent poses as a Ukrainian not only do they risk getting killed by a role check from a legit DT, but they also have to hope a Ukrainian checks them. Let's assume this worst case scenario indeed does go right - they get in with a Ukrainian. That night they send in their hits and the KNVD agent's hit doesn't go through - oh shit? Are you going to say he was a Vet/protted especially if it was a random target? How about the fact that no clues seem to point towards you? So you end up dying and trade yourself for 1 mafia, when if you just did it straight RC wise you'd get a Mafia for free. That idea is just dumb. It also doesn't matter if DTs could use up all their RCs - they will always be useful because the Ukrainians won't know IF they indeed have used up all their RCs. | ||
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~OpZ~
United States3652 Posts
On July 30 2009 02:27 Shikyo wrote: Someone might decide to use clue checks instead. And another thing is that if a NKVD checks another NKVD, we have a confirmed townie. I guess I'll wait for some experienced player's input. =P Damn...For some reason my eyes jumped over the fact they still had clue checks...Lol...Oops. Yea, indeed...Maybe not night 3 then...Lol...Sorry...Need to rethink this now. | ||
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~OpZ~
United States3652 Posts
On July 30 2009 02:40 Ace wrote: If an KNVD agent poses as a Ukrainian not only do they risk getting killed by a role check from a legit DT, but they also have to hope a Ukrainian checks them. Let's assume this worst case scenario indeed does go right - they get in with a Ukrainian. That night they send in their hits and the KNVD agent's hit doesn't go through - oh shit? Are you going to say he was a Vet/protted especially if it was a random target? How about the fact that no clues seem to point towards you? So you end up dying and trade yourself for 1 mafia, when if you just did it straight RC wise you'd get a Mafia for free. That idea is just dumb. It also doesn't matter if DTs could use up all their RCs - they will always be useful because the Ukrainians won't know IF they indeed have used up all their RCs. Not all wrong. Think about it this way...Even if the NKVD agent DIDN'T change their role to Rebel. What should he come up as? I think it's fair to say if he goes conscript, and is RC'd by a rebel, the Rebel WILL kill him, because he would know he isn't on his team. Same goes with any Army alligned role (wanted to blue so bad). So even if his kill doesn't go through, at least claiming to be rebel buys him one night to RC and inform the town of his RC and the Rebel who might PM him. But even then, he could claim not to believe the rebel who pm'd him, saying he'd need to RC him, which would buy him two nights not just one. So then it is MORE beneficial to claim NKVD. Even if an NKVD find a fake NKVD agent, we will still have clues by this point to either prove his innocence or prove he's traitorous scum. And to the last argument, I was stating once the DT's use all their role checks up they could come forward. I already realized the problem with this, which was clue checks, not role checks. I'm not trading one mafia for one NKVD. In your scenario/mine claiming NKVD is beneficial to us because that gives us 1 rebel, and a chance for atleast two more. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Now we also would have to deal with a situation where if every time someone gets Rolechecked and flips Ukrainian they just say "I'm an NKVD agent, I was just posing as a Rebel". Now what do we do? Wait a day and RC him AGAIN? Sweet, we waste another day and he kills again that night. We've just once again traded 1-1 or even 2-1 for a Rebel. That's not a good idea. In both scenarios the Red Army comes out fucked. You've been drinking too much Spetnaz Vodka. | ||
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~OpZ~
United States3652 Posts
On July 30 2009 02:52 Ace wrote: No, because he could also be RC'd by a legit NKVD. If his defense fails, now the legit NKVD agent is going to be put up to be hanged - o damn we just lost 2 NKVD agents because one guy thought it was smart to pose as a Rebel. Now we also would have to deal with a situation where if every time someone gets Rolechecked and flips Ukrainian they just say "I'm an NKVD agent, I was just posing as a Rebel". Now what do we do? Wait a day and RC him AGAIN? Sweet, we waste another day and he kills again that night. We've just once again traded 1-1 or even 2-1 for a Rebel. That's not a good idea. In both scenarios the Red Army comes out fucked. You've been drinking too much Spetnaz Vodka. I'll argue this further after work.... But you're thinking too hard. I'm not saying the report them right away anymore. Get over my first post already. And reread my edited post. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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LucasWoJ
United States936 Posts
On July 30 2009 02:38 ~OpZ~ wrote: Current Tally: LucasWoJ: (3) LucasWoJ t_co Chezinu L: (5) ~OpZ~ Ver motbob Kuja900 StorrZerg Ace: (7) teks Siefu Scaramanga iNfuNdiBuLuM Falcynn Last Romantic Zato-1 Person935: (1) Person935 Abstain: (10) fnaticNoname Shikyo ecomania Railxp Malongo Scamp Fishball Plexa softer ItsPaul Coltrane: (1) coltrane Malongo: (1) c.ngeK Not counting MountainDew Mountaindew has three left: chaoser, vivi, and ilovkt | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On July 30 2009 02:52 Ace wrote: No, because he could also be RC'd by a legit NKVD. If his defense fails, now the legit NKVD agent is going to be put up to be hanged - o damn we just lost 2 NKVD agents because one guy thought it was smart to pose as a Rebel. Now we also would have to deal with a situation where if every time someone gets Rolechecked and flips Ukrainian they just say "I'm an NKVD agent, I was just posing as a Rebel". Now what do we do? Wait a day and RC him AGAIN? Sweet, we waste another day and he kills again that night. We've just once again traded 1-1 or even 2-1 for a Rebel. That's not a good idea. In both scenarios the Red Army comes out fucked. You've been drinking too much Spetnaz Vodka. Hm. I'm not sure I agree with you Ace. Let's say on Day 1, an NKVD agent checks a player who comes up as Ukranian. If he says he's an agent (which he will), we give him 2 days to use up his remaining RCs and tell us what he finds, then we hang him. If he comes up as a rebel, we'll know to treat whatever he told us carefully, if he was in fact an agent we'll still have used up all of his RCs and know that info is true for sure. Besides, if there are say 9 rebels and 5 agents, it's much more likely that when a RC comes up as Ukranian, it'll actually be a rebel and not another agent. This does mean that if he turns out to be a rebel, we're giving him 2 more nights. That seems like the biggest cost. What's the upside of this plan? The ukranians can't coordinate from fear of contacting an agent. They can either: a. Operate independently, not sharing info. This screws them up big time because they'll waste a lot of time getting duplicate info. b. Try to contact each other to work efficiently. If they accept an agent into the fold, the agent will learn a bunch of rebel names and they get crushed. This is all assuming the rebels can't tell each other apart from an agent. If they can somehow tell each other apart, then this plan fails :p | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 30 2009 03:13 LucasWoJ wrote: Mountaindew has three left: chaoser, vivi, and ilovkt Doesn't matter when he's not in the game. Anyway, I waited for an experienced player's opinion and Ace's was just as I expected. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Basically you'll want to backlog everyone thats investigated for the sake of "ok, lets hope this guy is Ukrainian and dumb enough to work in the best interest of the town" when he'll just lie about everything and you are right back where you started - no reliable info and you let a Rebel live for 2 days. Come on, lets not assume the Ukrainians are all morons who will just do whatever we say and then get themselves killed. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Think of it like the "lynch anyone claiming DT on Day 1 idea". The basis is that nothing the DT says on Day 1 can be proven or disproven. So you just kill them anyway no matter what. Good players knowing this then just realize if you are a DT it's better to breadcrumb your posts or wait for Day 2 with more evidence to roelclaim because now you can be held liable. Likewise in this game anyone claiming to be an NKVD agent dressed as a Rebel can't be proven at all unless we wait a day. The downside of course is that if he's a real NKVD agent he'll be killed asap and if he isn't we just let a Rebel live an extra night. Also remember the Rebels do not know each other - so if the NKVD is trying to infiltrate something what the hell is he going to learn? Once again lets assume our enemies aren't morons and won't just go o hai, this is everyone who's a Rebel lol want some krishnikov ice cream? | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On July 30 2009 04:20 Ace wrote: you do realize that by letting him live for 2 more nights you are just letting their KP sit and instead of "using" them they are indeed using you. Remember he doesn't have to do anything you tell him if he is indeed Ukrainian - so what do you gain from it? Basically you'll want to backlog everyone thats investigated for the sake of "ok, lets hope this guy is Ukrainian and dumb enough to work in the best interest of the town" when he'll just lie about everything and you are right back where you started - no reliable info and you let a Rebel live for 2 days. Come on, lets not assume the Ukrainians are all morons who will just do whatever we say and then get themselves killed. This is not what I suggested. Letting the suspect live for 2 days is clearly one of the downsides of the plan if he indeed turns out to be ukranian, since he will no doubt be working against us for these 2 days. The reason to let him live is to minimize the loss we take in case he turned out to be NKVD- we still get the benefit of all of his RCs and we _know_ they're reliable after his death. Let the vulture drop all its mines before it dies, is the idea. Ok, so all that stuff above is cost. Summary of costs: 1. Identified rebels get to live for 2 more days before their lynching. 2. Might end up lynching an NKVD agent, but at least we get 100% trusted RCs from him. Benefits of NKVD agents disguising as Ukranians: 1. Throws a wrench in rebel organization. They act solo, and waste a lot of turns with each one building up an intel network individually, so we can win by turn limit, OR 2. If they set up a mafia network anyway, we could get a mole in that network, who can give us the names of the rebels. Rebels get lynched, we win. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
ETA: Once again let's assume our enemies aren't stupid. How is an NKVD Agent going to get into the Rebel organization? | ||
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