EPTAt any rate, the worst we can do is have everyone going off and trying their thing- I say, let the elected Field Marshall decide whether all the agents will disguise themselves as rebels, or whether none of them will.
[GG] Red Army Mafia - Page 12
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
At any rate, the worst we can do is have everyone going off and trying their thing- I say, let the elected Field Marshall decide whether all the agents will disguise themselves as rebels, or whether none of them will. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 30 2009 04:44 Zato-1 wrote: Well, I've put forth my case. If you like it, fine, if you don't, that's fine too. At any rate, I'm not going to be Field Marshall (while you might) so I'm just trying to present the upsides of the other approach. At any rate, the worst we can do is have everyone going off and trying their thing- I say, let the elected Field Marshall decide whether all the agents will disguise themselves as rebels, or whether none of them will. I'll just say that normally it is a terrible idea to have the elected officer decide for things like that, simply because if he's ukrainian, he'll just do everything to hurt the town. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On July 30 2009 04:42 Ace wrote: If he is an NKVD Agent what makes you think he will live 2 days to use up all his rolechecks? The NKVD agent who came up with the RC contacts the suspect personally, and the Field Marshall as well. Nothing has to be said publicly so the Ukranians won't suspect him. On July 30 2009 04:42 Ace wrote:ETA: Once again let's assume our enemies aren't stupid. How is an NKVD Agent going to get into the Rebel organization? How do you suppose the rebels will form an organization in the first place? They RC people, and if they turn up as rebels, they get added to the rebel network. If the NKVD agent is posing as a rebel, then the rebels either don't organize themselves at all, OR they accept anyone who comes up as a rebel in a RC into their organization- they have no other way of telling if any given person is a rebel or not. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On July 30 2009 04:47 Shikyo wrote: I'll just say that normally it is a terrible idea to have the elected officer decide for things like that, simply because if he's ukrainian, he'll just do everything to hurt the town. Wait what? The elected officer can be ukranian? O.o I thought his role would change to Field Marshall if a Ukranian was chosen to begin with... | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 30 2009 04:48 Zato-1 wrote: The NKVD agent who came up with the RC contacts the suspect personally, and the Field Marshall as well. Nothing has to be said publicly so the Ukranians won't suspect him. How do you suppose the rebels will form an organization in the first place? They RC people, and if they turn up as rebels, they get added to the rebel network. If the NKVD agent is posing as a rebel, then the rebels either don't organize themselves at all, OR they accept anyone who comes up as a rebel in a RC into their organization- they have no other way of telling if any given person is a rebel or not. How will the detected ukrainian be lynched if nothing is said publicly? And are you really telling everything to the field marshall? And if it was established that every DT would appear as an ukrainian, do you really think they'd contact everyone they RC as ukrainians? | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 30 2009 04:49 Zato-1 wrote: Wait what? The elected officer can be ukranian? O.o I thought his role would change to Field Marshall if a Ukranian was chosen to begin with... Do you think that after election a mafia becomes a townie? No comment. | ||
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Falcynn
United States3597 Posts
On July 30 2009 04:49 Zato-1 wrote: He shows up as field marshall if he's checked, but he retains whatever role he started off with originally.Wait what? The elected officer can be ukranian? O.o I thought his role would change to Field Marshall if a Ukranian was chosen to begin with... | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On July 30 2009 04:48 Zato-1 wrote: The NKVD agent who came up with the RC contacts the suspect personally, and the Field Marshall as well. Nothing has to be said publicly so the Ukranians won't suspect him. How do you suppose the rebels will form an organization in the first place? They RC people, and if they turn up as rebels, they get added to the rebel network. If the NKVD agent is posing as a rebel, then the rebels either don't organize themselves at all, OR they accept anyone who comes up as a rebel in a RC into their organization- they have no other way of telling if any given person is a rebel or not. Yes they do - the hit list. If I were Ukrainian and I RC'd someoen and they came up as a Rebel the first thing I'd ask is who did they kill the previous nights. An NKVD agent has no idea who the Ukrainian knows at that point, so they'd have to lie. A real Rebel of course has nothing to hide and will tell the truth. If it was an NKVD agent asking them they'd tell who they killed anyway because if it goes to shit they themselves can also say they are just an NKVD agent posing as a Rebel - now how do you sort through the liars? Come on, think of this as if both sides wanted to stay alive for as long as possible. You are literally giving people way too many outs to lie from and that isn't good when the safest plan is just don't pose as a Rebel. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On July 30 2009 04:51 Shikyo wrote: How will the detected ukrainian be lynched if nothing is said publicly? And are you really telling everything to the field marshall? And if it was established that every DT would appear as an ukrainian, do you really think they'd contact everyone they RC as ukrainians? Okay, first things first. All this time, I've assumed the field marshall is a trusted- the only trusted- member of the town, so correct me if I'm wrong on that assumption. Step by step: 1. NKVD agent RCs someone, comes up as Ukranian. 2. NKVD contacts Field Marshall he got a ukranian in a RC. 3. NKVD contacts suspect, tells him he will get lynched in 2 days' time. If he's a patriotic NKVD agent, he should use up his remaining RCs before he dies. 4. 2 days pass. 5. NKVD agent reveals his findings, Field Marshall confirms two days have passed since the findings. 6. With the info revealed, the town lynches the suspect. Perhaps it's too complicated, but it seems to work in theory. IF the field marshall is a trusted town member. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On July 30 2009 04:53 Falcynn wrote: He shows up as field marshall if he's checked, but he retains whatever role he started off with originally. Ok, I was wrong in one of my basic assumptions. Never mind anything I've said, Ace is right, NKVD agents should not disguise themselves as rebels -_- | ||
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coltrane
Chile988 Posts
If there are 9 rebels and 6 agents one of them being RC tonight and death tomorrow is MUCH posible. If he is an NKVD Agent what makes you think he will live 2 days to use up all his rolechecks? We act on behavioral things mostly, mafia doesnt, they will start sweeping first and will kill anyone who they find that is not on their team. If they are not confident of one of their own then they have to use another night checking. To RC is not a good way of checking, cause NKVD will still appear Ukranian, even after his dts are gone. The best way could be setting up a killing, and that may require 2 nights instead of one. So by claming to be ukranians they win at least 1 night, sometimes 2 and could be more. Under this conditions i would suggest ANYONE who could appear to be ukranian to do so, and i would say NKVD shouldnt be on the office. Given the rule set we have the chance to screw their ability to propper rolecheck, wtf lets do it. Once again let's assume our enemies aren't stupid. How is an NKVD Agent going to get into the Rebel organization? And yes, wont be easy, but our DT would have for sure at least 1 confirmed townie where to deliver his info. The thing is he doesnt need to get into. If they think he could me ukranian he will still have an extra night and even when he is rolechecked and dont get info about it is even more the info that ukranians lose. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Both of them will claim to be NKVD agents undercover, and it's damn near possible both really are - what are you going to do? Think the entire scenario out or just read my last post. Seriously you guys are starting to remind me of the town when Qatol was Mayor. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On July 30 2009 05:07 coltrane wrote: Ace, really you dont make any single good point at this. If there are 9 rebels and 6 agents one of them being RC tonight and death tomorrow is MUCH posible. We act on behavioral things mostly, mafia doesnt, they will start sweeping first and will kill anyone who they find that is not on their team. If they are not confident of one of their own then they have to use another night checking. To RC is not a good way of checking, cause NKVD will still appear Ukranian, even after his dts are gone. The best way could be setting up a killing, and that may require 2 nights instead of one. So by claming to be ukranians they win at least 1 night, sometimes 2 and could be more. Under this conditions i would suggest ANYONE who could appear to be ukranian to do so, and i would say NKVD shouldnt be on the office. Given the rule set we have the chance to screw their ability to propper rolecheck, wtf lets do it. And yes, wont be easy, but our DT would have for sure at least 1 confirmed townie where to deliver his info. The thing is he doesnt need to get into. If they think he could me ukranian he will still have an extra night and even when he is rolechecked and dont get info about it is even more the info that ukranians lose. no | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On July 30 2009 05:07 Ace wrote: Even If the Field Marshal is a confirmed innocent you still haven't answered this REALLY basic question: how do you sort through the liars? I already answered this, in detail. You don't sort through the liars. You end up lynching whoever comes up as a rebel in a RC. This is one of the problems of the plan, I've stated it quite clearly. The plan also has benefits, which I've listed as well. At any rate, I for one already admitted that it's not a good plan :p | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 30 2009 05:12 Zato-1 wrote: I already answered this, in detail. You don't sort through the liars. You end up lynching whoever comes up as a rebel in a RC. This is one of the problems of the plan, I've stated it quite clearly. The plan also has benefits, which I've listed as well. At any rate, I for one already admitted that it's not a good plan :p How do you lynch them? Do you think the DT just publicly announces that he's the DT? And why should the town believe him? | ||
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coltrane
Chile988 Posts
seriously??? how deep... | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On July 30 2009 05:16 Shikyo wrote: How do you lynch them? Do you think the DT just publicly announces that he's the DT? And why should the town believe him? My assumption was that the NKVD agent contacts a trustworthy Field Marshal, so the Field Marshall can inform the Town. If this info was NOT given to the Field Marshal by an NKVD agent, then it was given by a rebel- no other Townie would want to impersonate an NKVD agent like that. So if a rebel was impersonating an NKVD agent so a conscript could get lynched, then that same rebel exposes himself and gets lynched the next day. Not a good trade for the rebel, so he wouldn't do it, so all this hypothetical debate is pointless. | ||
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