|
On July 30 2009 06:05 Zato-1 wrote:
On a completely unrelated issue- can a 'dead' player still post after he got killed, such as saying "oh guys, before I died I got a PM from player X, it said such and such"? No. This is why in some previous mafia games you have people post absolutely everything they know when they believe they're going to die. After you're dead you can't post anything that has any affect on the game.
|
Well, I screwed my quote. 
|
Ok L, good luck trying to convince anyone that isn't completely fucking dumb the NKVD Agents should go undercover. If 2 of them die can we agree that you will be auto-lynched. I want people taking responsibility for their actions his game.
|
And if the "Rebel" used a check the Night before why would the real Rebel even entertain the thought of talking to him since he can't be confirmed?
EXACTLY.
SO NOW REAL REBELS CANT ORGANIZE UNTIL DAY 3-4, POSSIBLY LATER IF THEY CHECK NON-REBEL TARGETS.
At which point we can switch NKVD agents to all vigilantes if we want and proceed from there. Rules aren't clear on when/how/how many rolecheck masks our agents can use, but if they can change them post start, we're 100% fine.
Even then, trading a single Dt for a single mafia at days 3-4 is fantastic trade given they have 1 kp/day (depending on how many there are).
|
On July 30 2009 06:00 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2009 05:39 Scamp wrote:
Well that situation of the two NKVD agents targeting each other would be unfortunate but unlikely.
Besides, the point isn't to take out one Ukranian. The point is to infiltrate a group in order to take out a bunch of them. I don't think I'd want to start hitting people if I were in a Ukranian group of two or three, so getting "confirmed" by killing someone wouldn't be a problem until later. Impossible to call. No idea how the NKVD agents individually select who they want to Role Check. you can't get IN the group - that's the problem. Once again think of it basically like this: Ace - NKVD Agent Scamp - Ukrainian Rebel Ace - o hai scamp, I checked you out. You're Rebel, so am I! <3 Scamp - o ok. cool. This is L and coltrane, their rebels too. Sup? Ace - lol newbs I'm an Agent. GG. Do you really think you'd do that? or is it more like this: Ace -o hai scamp, I checked you out. You're Rebel, so am I! <3 Scamp - that's nice hoe. Who did you kill last night? Ace - oh I killed...um...Foolishness. (I have no idea who really did so I'm guessing) Scamp(who knows the truth because he knows who killed Foolishness) - o ok. Well I can't trust you yet so who are you going to kill tomorrow night? Ace - um...I'll kill LucasWoj! Scamp - ok well when Lucas shows up dead I'll let you know! 2 problems already fucks the Agent over: I die immediately because Scamp knows the truth and kills me. I survive till the next day but Lucas doesn't die unless I get super lucky. If he doesn't I'm killed. The best I could do is roleclaim to the town that I'm an NKVD agent and found Scamp. Scamp of course says he's also an NKVD Agent and was undercover also. How do you sort through the liars? Even worse - what if Scamp really is an NKVD agent. Come on, I know what I'm talking about here. You guys are assuming the Rebels are so dumb as not to ask 2 simple questions which would destroy any NKVD agent without a lot of information ahead of time.
Your dialogues are so inocent that i am ashamed.
NKVD doesnt need to contact rebels. The rebels need to contact rebels. It turns that any rebel would be risking giving up himself if he roleclaim to NKVD possing as rebbel.
coltrane (Rebbel):r u ukranian? who you killed lastnight?
Ace (NKVD):I hitted L but he survives... and you?
coltrane: i RC you, didnt hit. Who are you hitting tonight?
Ace (NKVD):no idea, L is townie, but lived lastnight... if protected we lose KP, think i will RC.
coltrane: i dont trust you. I will hit L tonight.
Ace: I dont trust you either.
so ace tells L he is going to be hitted, and that coltrane is 100% rebbel. Of course, a NKVD who RC an Ukranian doesnt contact him.
|
On July 30 2009 06:01 Falcynn wrote:
Yeah, since I'm not sure if I was clear enough, I'm going to try to detail this better.
NKVD should disguise themselves as Ukrainians
This is good because it'll force the Ukrainians to be more careful about who they trust, stalling any form of organization between them for at least a few days. The only drawback to this is if an NKVD targets another NKVD, which is fairly unlikely, but if it does happen it shouldn't be too disastrous because...
NKVD should not try to infiltrate the network
This is a waste of time, because the Ukrainians have enough methods at their disposal to verify Ukrainians within a day. If an NKVD agent comes out to a Ukrainian, then they have roughly 1 day left to live. If they're that suicidal, they may as well just open up to the town and pray for medic protection. They should simply disguise as Ukrainian, then continue playing as if this was any other mafia game by subtly trying to sway the towns opinion with what they find out rather than trying to come out in the open.
Imo NKVD Agents should disguise themselves as Towny and then play as a normal DT would. No need to expose themselves - just build a case against Rebels and smash them when the time is right. Everyone wants to be hero and ends up just another dead body when they try some clever plan with a big gaping hole in it :/
The town already has an insane advantage - why piss it away with risky moves.
|
Basically you've admitted mafia have no information, but you want ukranians to be able to check NKVD agents and see a blue/green and KNOW there's a safe kill target, and KNOW rebels are actually rebels.
C'mon Ace, keep the story straight. Those are your tips. Follow them :3.
|
Wait, so are you saying that NKVD shouldn't disguise themselves as rebels?
Because while I perfectly agree that trying to infiltrate the rebel network is a horrible idea, I don't see any other role that NKVD can disguise as. If they disguise themselves as red, they'll get killed off quickly. If they disguise themselves as green, then they'll probably be killed off as well. By disguising themselves as blue, then that throws a wrench into whatever plans the rebels have to organize stalling them for a few days at least.
|
but you want ukranians to be able to check NKVD agents and see a blue/green and KNOW there's a safe kill target
Fuck you caller for switching the colours this game. I meant Red/Green.
Town is Christmas colours.
|
Ace your scenerio is if an NKVD agent finds a Ukranian. But we're talking about the NKVD posing as a Ukranian. Also, what about counter-proof? I like how I have all the power in that argument and I don't have to prove myself at all.
But wait, are we all agreed now that every NKVD should list themselves as Ukranian? I think it sounds that way.
|
Wow, ninja'd, repeatedly =/
Well, I guess this is where we have a disagreement. I really really believe that NKVD should pose as rebels. The chances of them of being RC'd by the rebels are slim enough that they won't have to worry about having to BS their way out, and the confusion of having them undercover will, as I mentioned repeatedly, stall any organization efforts for a few days. Which IMO is a huge asset to us.
|
On July 30 2009 06:11 L wrote:Show nested quote +And if the "Rebel" used a check the Night before why would the real Rebel even entertain the thought of talking to him since he can't be confirmed?
EXACTLY. SO NOW REAL REBELS CANT ORGANIZE UNTIL DAY 3-4, POSSIBLY LATER IF THEY CHECK NON-REBEL TARGETS. At which point we can switch NKVD agents to all vigilantes if we want and proceed from there. Rules aren't clear on when/how/how many rolecheck masks our agents can use, but if they can change them post start, we're 100% fine. Even then, trading a single Dt for a single mafia at days 3-4 is fantastic trade given they have 1 kp/day (depending on how many there are).
Um...no. The Rebels can certainly organize asap. Hi, who did you kill last night? O no one, cool. I'll wait till tomorrow night. They aren't going to get hasty. You are essentially saying OMG WE CAN PREVENT THEM FROM BEING ORGANIZED! when it just costs us some Agents. When the total number of roles in the game is revealed then they all know o ok, there's only 1 or 2 left. Time to start getting trigger happy.
It's never a good idea trading 1 for 1 in a game when no one can be confirmed. Ever.
|
On July 30 2009 06:14 L wrote:Show nested quote + but you want ukranians to be able to check NKVD agents and see a blue/green and KNOW there's a safe kill target Fuck you caller for switching the colours this game. I meant Red/Green. Town is Christmas colours.
somebody wants to get modkilled
|
On July 30 2009 06:12 L wrote:
Basically you've admitted mafia have no information, but you want ukranians to be able to check NKVD agents and see a blue/green and KNOW there's a safe kill target, and KNOW rebels are actually rebels.
C'mon Ace, keep the story straight. Those are your tips. Follow them :3.
If Agents are always green why would the Rebels kill them every time when every game peopel have been bitching about blue hunting? Makes no sense.
My story is always straight. Just like the other game when you were wrong about my allegiance. I'm always right, just face it. :/
|
They always will have more time as ukranians than as anything else. An ukranian DT needs to be checked by ukranians. A townie DT doesnt need anything, is a sure shot.
|
On July 30 2009 06:15 Scamp wrote:
Ace your scenerio is if an NKVD agent finds a Ukranian. But we're talking about the NKVD posing as a Ukranian. Also, what about counter-proof? I like how I have all the power in that argument and I don't have to prove myself at all.
But wait, are we all agreed now that every NKVD should list themselves as Ukranian? I think it sounds that way.
whats the argument. Prove it.
|
Good god I need to type my arguments faster.
|
There's certainly risks in the NKVD disguising themselves as rebels, however, I think that's the entire point of their role and the rebels not knowing each other. To throw a wrench into things. The ability to disguise yourself as a townie/another blue is nearly worthless. If you're rolechecked by an NKVD, you're safe to kill - the only reason they wouldn't kill you is if you disguised yourself as a townie, and they'd rather leave a townie alive and look for a red to kill - other than that, the only benefit of the ability is to disguise yourself as blue, and cause as much havoc as you possibly can.
|
On July 30 2009 06:18 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2009 06:15 Scamp wrote:
Ace your scenerio is if an NKVD agent finds a Ukranian. But we're talking about the NKVD posing as a Ukranian. Also, what about counter-proof? I like how I have all the power in that argument and I don't have to prove myself at all.
But wait, are we all agreed now that every NKVD should list themselves as Ukranian? I think it sounds that way. whats the argument. Prove it.
Um...I thought the proof is that any NKVD agent listing himself as anything else isn't really helpful.
|
On July 30 2009 06:20 Scamp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2009 06:18 Ace wrote:On July 30 2009 06:15 Scamp wrote:
Ace your scenerio is if an NKVD agent finds a Ukranian. But we're talking about the NKVD posing as a Ukranian. Also, what about counter-proof? I like how I have all the power in that argument and I don't have to prove myself at all.
But wait, are we all agreed now that every NKVD should list themselves as Ukranian? I think it sounds that way. whats the argument. Prove it. Um...I thought the proof is that any NKVD agent listing himself as anything else isn't really helpful.
Why isn't it?
If he lists himself as a plain towny he might not get hit, as it's been shown Mafia players for some odd reason want to ignore greens and hit blue(red this game).
If he flips Rebel he will surely be questioned. There's no way around it. Are you telling me the Rebels will RC someone, sees he's Rebel and go nah, better leave that guy alone he might be an NKVD? Of course not, because no matter what if the guy really does flip NKVD the Rebel can also claim he's an NKVD agent undercover. Hence, BOTH of these guys have an out that can't be proven for days. If someone has a legit out in a Mafia game you can't lynch them unless you can prove their out is bullshit and you can't.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
