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On July 30 2009 07:10 coltrane wrote:
easy, you ask for any information of both, then you lynch one and mafia kills the other, or you lynch both. is a 1:1 trade anyway, and it is good.
So your argument is:
1. All NKVD disguise as blue rebels
2. NKVD never PM someone they RC as rebel
3. When a rebel PMs an NKVD asking if he is rebel too, the NKVD can be sure whoever PMed him is rebel
4. NKVD comes clean. He and Rebel get lynched both (accused first, accuser later- spare accuser if accused turns out to be rebel).
5. We kill one rebel and probably lose an agent, plus if agent dies we get confirmed townies that the agent points out before his death.
On the downside, a RC from an NKVD that comes up as blue is useless and NKVD is only good for confirming townies and being a landmine for rebels who are RCing.
It... actually makes some sense. Hm.
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On July 30 2009 07:05 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2009 07:02 L wrote:
Basically, if NKVD do not contact their targets as a rule, rebels finding rebels cannot safely talk to each other upon fear of being confirmed blue, while our NKVD are free to check for town aligned players. This also prevents ukranians from mass pming people with "lol i checked you". yes they can. Rebels will always talk to any blue they find. Hence, any NKVD dressed as blue will be contacted whether they want to or not. At this point if you assume everyone followed your rule SURE it confirms the Rebel as guilty BUT the Rebel always has the defense that he is also an undercover NKVD Agent and was contacted first. How do you find out who is the liar? Come on, THINK the entire scenario through and stop assuming everyone is dumb to the point they can't realize they have a simple alibi that fucks the town over. Bit wired right now so I'm having trouble organizing my thoughts, but I'm gonna give it a shot.
That excuse wouldn't make sense. If we go by the way you have it thought out it'd go like this (Falcynn=NKVD Ace=Rebel, not implying anything, just realizing that this is hard to keep track of if I dn't do this). Again, this is all completely hypothetical.
Ace: Hey I just role check you and you're rebel apparently, I'm gonna need to figure out if I can trust you though, so who are you going to kill tonight/who did you kill last night.
I then post in the thread that Ace is a rebel. Ace then posts in the thread that he's actually NKVD and that I'm the one who contacted him first.
TBH that seems like a BS excuse because even if for whatever reason we entertain the possibility that Ace is NKVD and I'm a rebel, why the hell would I blow my identity like that? As a rebel I'd want to stay hidden as long as possible and only attempt to come out when my cover is blown.
Alternatively, the way I actually see this happening though is...
Ace: Hey, saw you're a rebel, just to make sure, who did you kill last night/who are you going to kill tomorrow?
Falcynn: I used a role check last night and found out that (person that I really did role check since I'm NKVD) is green. Tomorrow I'm gonna kill L.
*tomorrow comes and goes*
Ace: dude, you said you were gonna kill L.
Falcynn: fuck man, fucking medic blocked me. You know what, I think I'll role check this next turn blah blah blah.
while my life is considerably shorter, I can stall like this for at least a few days while I gather more information and pass it on to confirmed greens.
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Also if NKVD follows the advice here and does NOT contact anybody. They can assume that anyone who contacts them is a rebel.
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TBH that seems like a BS excuse because even if for whatever reason we entertain the possibility that Ace is NKVD and I'm a rebel, why the hell would I blow my identity like that? As a rebel I'd want to stay hidden as long as possible and only attempt to come out when my cover is blown.
Because the converse is always true. What if I feel you'd go to the town if I'm not sure of your role and decide to come out first? :/
Ace: Hey, saw you're a rebel, just to make sure, who did you kill last night/who are you going to kill tomorrow?
Falcynn: I used a role check last night and found out that (person that I really did role check since I'm NKVD) is green. Tomorrow I'm gonna kill L.
*tomorrow comes and goes*
Ace: dude, you said you were gonna kill L.
Falcynn: fuck man, fucking medic blocked me. You know what, I think I'll role check this next turn blah blah blah.
Which at this point means I'd just ignore you or kill you. You said you RC'd someone the night before, and then picked someone who I think both of us would guess had protection. Why would I trust you and keep talking to you? :/ You won't be stalling for long as you'd probably be dead. Besides what confirmed greens would you be passing info on to - remember all you know is me and I could also claim to be an undercover Agent. Remember it's not always about what's true but what you can convince people to believe.
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On July 30 2009 07:20 Falcynn wrote:
Also if NKVD follows the advice here and does NOT contact anybody. They can assume that anyone who contacts them is a rebel.
But how can they prove it? That's the problem.
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On July 30 2009 07:28 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2009 07:20 Falcynn wrote:
Also if NKVD follows the advice here and does NOT contact anybody. They can assume that anyone who contacts them is a rebel. But how can they prove it? That's the problem.
The prevailing argument on the other side is, you don't prove it. When an argument breaks out with two people claiming they're NKVD and the other guy is a rebel, you lynch 'em both (or if the first guy you lynch ends up being a rebel, you let the other live). You're trading an agent for a rebel, while if the rebel had RC'ed the agent and gotten anything other than a mafia, then the agent would get killed, no questions asked.
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Alright, the second part is understandable, but I'm still having trouble understanding why a rebel would ever come out to the town and claim that they're NKVD and the other person is a rebel.
Trying to think in the mindset of a rebel, to do that I would have to rolecheck someone, find out they're a rebel, and then immediately come out to the town with this without even knowing if my suspicions of them being NKVD are true. If someone comes out to the town claiming that they're NKVD and so-and-so is a rebel, then unless they're just trying to troll the game, they're probably telling the truth. Because what reason would a rebel have to expose themselves like that. If it's a rebel false-claiming then the only reasonable options are.
A) The rebel was wrong and the other blue really is a rebel, then he just outted a fellow rebel.
B) The rebel was right and the other blue is actually NKVD, then he just outted himself because after the town lynches the NKVD, they'll go straight for him.
Considering that I hope the NKVD aren't stupid enough to tell the rebels what their role is before they report it to the town, then I don't see any reason for the rebel to false-claim to the town, meaning that anyone claiming the NKVD role while condemning someone else is most likely telling the truth as long as all NKVD make sure NOT to contact anyone.
Again, I'm a bit wired so I'm having trouble trying to set my thoughts straight, but I hope I'm making sense.
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On July 30 2009 06:59 Ace wrote:
My plan relies on people not being stupid as it always does. When you can point out in any game any time my plan has EVER been wrong and not been the right path to victory then you can question me. I dare any of you to find such a time. I'll wait.
Your plan assumes the mafia isn't stupid. Your plan also assumes the NKVD agents are stupid. There's no opinion in that post, one way or the other. I stated that merely because no one has explicitly pointed this out.
On July 30 2009 07:10 coltrane wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2009 07:05 Ace wrote:On July 30 2009 07:02 L wrote:
Basically, if NKVD do not contact their targets as a rule, rebels finding rebels cannot safely talk to each other upon fear of being confirmed blue, while our NKVD are free to check for town aligned players. This also prevents ukranians from mass pming people with "lol i checked you". yes they can. Rebels will always talk to any blue they find. Hence, any NKVD dressed as blue will be contacted whether they want to or not. At this point if you assume everyone followed your rule SURE it confirms the Rebel as guilty BUT the Rebel always has the defense that he is also an undercover NKVD Agent and was contacted first. How do you find out who is the liar? Come on, THINK the entire scenario through and stop assuming everyone is dumb to the point they can't realize they have a simple alibi that fucks the town over. easy, you ask for any information of both, then you lynch one and mafia kills the other, or you lynch both. is a 1:1 trade anyway, and it is good.
Coltrane, please put a little more time to express yourself clearly, etc. It's sometimes hard to get through the careless grammar/spelling mistakes, and I'm sure many players overlook your posts as a result. A simple spell-check will go a long way in making yourself more persuasive.
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I hope I'm covering all the theories that have been offered so far:
NKVD disguise themselves as rebels, and respond to PMs: Terrible idea, it's the same idea as below but even MORE convoluted.
NKVD disguise themselves as rebels, do NOT respond to PMs: BAD idea. NKVD RCs someone and it shows as rebel. He is killed. He flips as innocent. Now we have one important role down and no way to tell if he died due to being framed or by accident. This will cause an uproar which would be an ample opportunity for rebels to cause even more chaos. We will never learn who our NKVDs are using this method.
NKVD do not disguise themselves as rebels: Only good idea yet. Read Ace's posts, if you disagree, pay better attention to who's running against him for Field Marshall. The other candidates would naturally be out to get him because he has the most votes, which he does because his argument is the most logical.
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The thing about having NKVD's pose undercover is it creates doubt for the Ukranians who are rolechecking, if they happen to check someone who flips up as a rebel.
On the other hand, this creates the possible situation of an NKVD checking another NKVD who is undercover. So NKVD's going undercover create an element of doubt to rolechecking, for both sides. It also places the NKVD agents at greater risk of dying, because PM slip-ups happen every game and they will certainly happen in this one too.
NKVD can pose as any role, right?
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Wut? Caller that was so UNCalled for.
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United States2186 Posts
Why are we talking about this for 8 pages? L/Ace, why are you guys bulldogging each other again? I will get down on my knees and pray to Zoroaster or whoever, just don't turn this into a repeat of Qatol's game -_-
Speaking of which, that mspaint is HILARIOUS.
DTs/NKVD should choose to show up as Veteran. It's as simple as that. Mafia will have to make tough choices when they RC a vet and will end up losing KP if they want to make that choice. Meanwhile there are no slipups or false accusations of 2 agents.
As for myself, I'm taking this a little less seriously. Read into it all you want but it won't tell you anything.
Anyway, nearly all the major posters should be innocent. Good for us. Keep sitting back mafia, it's your grave.
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United States2186 Posts
HEY PUT THAT MSPAINT BACK
It's so fitting
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Well I guess Ver just answered my question.
Then yes, having the NKVDs pose as Ukranians is stupi because it places them at greater risk of dying than if they went undercover as a veteran (which is a pretty good idea), which still creates an element of doubt that is necessary to keep the rebels guessing. Good call.
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I agree with Ver. People seem to be forgetting the other options NKVDs have.
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omfg, all the names confuse me lol 
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I did indeed forget that the NKVDs could pose as veterans. I think it's a good option too.
But I also think that having all of the NKVDs posing as veterans will make it that much easier for the Ukranians to organize.
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NKVD posing as vet is pretty clever, I hadn't thought of that. I'd still like to hear Ace's take on the argument I outlined at the top of this page before I make up my mind, though.
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EPT
