|
Ok even if they can use them up to 4 times - there is a limit. What if the town has to check multiple people? How do we do it? The DTs can't coordinate and there is no way to know who needs to be checked first. The DTs are gimped on this one and there is no way around it.
Confirm someone and coordination gets a lot easier.
If X is 100% mafia we shouldn't be using the Vigi hit anyway. This means X has to be likely mafia.
Why do you say this? If we get someone we think is 100% mafia, why not hit him if it isn't before the lynch?
Even with a cluecheck how do you know who the hit gets linked to from the Mafia side?
You don't. However, I checked with Chuiu: The mafia cannot control this. If the GF picks vigi in order to muck up this plan, it means they cannot fake medic or DT or BG and muck up another plan. Furthermore, chuiu has to randomly pick the GF for that hit otherwise all the GF can say is that he missed.
|
On March 18 2009 10:29 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2009 10:17 Ace wrote:
The vigi confirmation idea is just all around bad. Too many holes in it for little gain.
1.) Whoever claims vigi can't be mafia or the plan is dead. Even if the DT could check them, thats 1 RC down the drain and doesn't even get us the real Vigi we need. Assuming this doesn't happen...
2.) Now we have to hit a suspected mafia, not a sure fire mafia. Why do this early in the game? Unless we get an RC it's useless. We'd need to wait for more clue analysis. Involving DTs means spreading out already thin Medic protection, which means Mafia is going to rape everyone else very fast.
3.) Assuming we have a legit Vigi and he hits a mafia...now what? Everyone send in their roles to him? Mafia doesn't have to fear another hit from him, there are only so many blue roles that they most can just claim Towny and go on with their lives. Once again DTs will take forever to sort out the liars and may very well be out of Rolechecks at this point. Mafia wins the long term battle on this one.
The Vigi plan isn't going to help until much later in the game when the town doesn't need too much Detective help. From past experience mafia rarely claims vigi, if ever. And one can tell if a kill is mafia or vigilante, usually-mafias in the past have been themed, while vigilantes are of a different theme. More importantly, mafias will give themselves away, especially if the targets in question are inactives or highly suspicious. For instance, if Tim is highly suspicious, and we send Bob after Tim, if Mafia tries to fake the kill it will show up, and "save" us a vigilante kill from revealing a suspicious person. On the other hand, if a legitimate vigilante kills Tim, we have our confirmed Vig. Regardless of whatever role the person hit was. At which point, the vigilante gets incarcerated (which protects him) and can arrange the roles. If Mafia fakes, it is likely that they will stick out like a sore thumb. Sure, it may add some confusion, but at however many mafia they sacrifice. More importantly, people with roles tend not to be inactives. And even if mafia claims Towny, it doesn't matter, because now we have the ability to coordinate night actions, and we can limit the pool of suspected mafia to that of just the townies (unless Godfather impersonates a blue, which although smart, if he's not careful, he may give himself away very easily). And we don't have to rolecheck everybody, we can just use selective information and the use of roles to try and trip up mafia impersonating as blues. edit: yeah I know I have finals, but I'm taking a break from studying. I hate calculus.
Well past experience isn't going to help on this one - the rules of the game are different. With the plan these guys have come up with, Mafia claiming vigi is really a valid concern. Even without mafia interference the plan has some big holes but we can't just assume Mafia won't try.
Your example actually helps my argument - Tim is highly suspicious. If Tim doesn't flip Mafia the town has just FUCKED up. Bob can be Mafia or legit Vigi but we won't know without solid clue analysis. Even if the clues are worded in a way that shows bob as a vigi(which it won't btw since there are barely any big codenames to go on so far, and even if there were we'd be trying this too early to be able to seperate Mafia codenames from Vigi codenames) what do we do now? Send in all the roles to Bob, who absorbs tons of medic prot and even if he lives now has to sort out liars and coordinate DTs and use up all the rolechecks on the liars? All of you are making the classic mistake you make every game - you look at the good side of the "what if" example and always forget the other side, which more than likely will happen. This time the good side isn't even that good as it's a plan with so many flaws.
Very high risk for moderate gain. The best bet for this plan to work is to hope that Bob is a legit Vigi that also happens to be running for Sheriff/Mayor. Even then it probably won't work out well.
|
I would honestly like to see a pyrr(sheriff)/Ace(mayor) combo. Ace, your post is very good and its why I'm looking at clue analysis for who I vote for. If we can't get an organization going (and I don't think we can) then we really have to pick people for mayor/sheriff purely people we want to stay alive.
And in this game it seems like the most valuable people will be the clue-solvers.
|
We don't even have to use DT's to check if the vigi hits a red. We won't send roles in unless the vigi hits a red. The GF can't fake a red hit (if all vigis are calling their shots beforehand like we seem to be in agreement a bout).
If we exhaust all our vigi hits without hitting a red we still have a short list of vigis we can then DT check with either clue checks, role checks, or may just clue analysis as Caller explained. If more than 3 vigis role claim, that's probably better than a vote count list would be for winnowing out a mafia.
|
On March 18 2009 10:39 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2009 10:30 Ace wrote:On March 18 2009 10:20 Qatol wrote:
Ok a few things.
First of all, Ace: Rolechecks can be used consecutively, just not 3 times in a row. Reread the role. Checking people can happen faster than you indicated.
Second of all: There is an easy way of getting around the GF posing as a vigi idea (which is mucking up a potential vigi plan). Don't just rolecheck the vigi. The vigi AND the town knows where the hit went. All we have to do is have the vigi confirm that his hit went through and then look for the clue. Why the clue? Because vigis can be CLUECHECKED. If the town can't find a clue when they know who the clue has to link to, well we are in a lot more trouble than I thought.
Now the mafia can try to fake this, but it is unlikely that the mafia they want is actually linked to the hit they want. It is probably worth thinking about rolechecking the vigi as well just in case, but really, unless the mafia get pretty lucky, they can't control how the hit will go. Ok even if they can use them up to 4 times - there is a limit. What if the town has to check multiple people? How do we do it? The DTs can't coordinate and there is no way to know who needs to be checked first. The DTs are gimped on this one and there is no way around it. There *is* no way of getting around it. And this isn't just talking about the GF - it's about any Mafia really. It goes back to the same idea of having to use DTs and risking them or going off an even worse move of hoping the mafia mess up. but ok let's assume the GF fakes vigi. GF comes out and says he's vigilante and will hit X player at night. Let's not even begin to think how we've come this conclusion that X should be hit. If X is 100% mafia we shouldn't be using the Vigi hit anyway. This means X has to be likely mafia. Which means he can be Miller/Townie/Blue or whatever. As long as he isn't 100% mafia, the GF just hits him and it goes through - how does the town avoid this? Even with a cluecheck how do you know who the hit gets linked to from the Mafia side? As far as I know, mafia doesn't choose which clues pop out for kills. So if you cluecheck the person that kills the GF's target, and it doesn't match up with the Godfather, the godfather is screwed. That's a 1/10 chance of a successful deception, and if the clue is blatantly obvious it's a mafia (i.e. it appears twice or is of the same theme as mafia) the godfather is screwed again. So it is very unlikely the GF will go through with the hit. Keep in mind also that the GF has to target a suspicious character, or an inactive-either case, the hit, if it goes through, will help us whittle suspect lists while maintaining Town KP. If GF targets an important person or whatnot, he's exposing himself to massive amounts of flak. And why would GF necessarily roleclaim Vigilante? As soon as the GF's clues appear twice, he's dead. This applies to any mafia who tries to fake DT/Vig: the clues will get them much more likely than not. The risk just isn't worth it. As for the DTs rolechecking, we don't need to rolecheck until we have the whole Vigilante mess organized. At which point, the Vigilante can organize rolechecks.
But how will you know they killed the GF's target? Thats what I'm saying. Do we know that the Mafia when they send in their hit list assign them specifically or is it just one big list of names? And regardless of this how do you know whoever is writing clues is going to match them up like this? There aren't any codenames yet so it's even worse to even try it because when we do this the Vigi codenames are going to be mixed in with the Mafia codenames and that's even if we GET any codenames. Once again you're assuming way too much.
Um the GF faking Vigi, if he wanted doesn't mean a cluecheck = GG for him. First we'd have to find the clue. Second, if the person he hits because of being highly suspect flips non-mafia no one can even accuse him of anything since it's the town that helped him/her in this decision. Once again you keep forgetting how many hoops the town has to jump through just for this plan to even be decent.
|
How is hitting Townie Tim any worse than lynching Townie Tim? It isn't. All that happens is we have someone roleclaiming vigi that has used his hit. Yes, he could be mafia. That will be taken into account. However, does it really hurt the town? Of course not. Tim was a suspect.
Why does Bob have to absorb tons of medic protection? If he is confirmed, he can coordinate that....
|
On March 18 2009 10:23 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
The biggest risk I see is the mafia faking as a vigi and stringing us along by posing as a vigi attempting to kill blue after blue and having the mafia end up killing the same person. We would probably have to choose as a town who the vigi should kill because that way a fake vigi wouldn't be able to just choose someone who is not mafia everytime and claim every morning that the mafia had killed the same person in order to foil them. Vigis are always having to deal with the risk of killing a blue or green so as long as its a person the town is okay with attacking I don't think the negative consequences are that bad, however early on we are probably unlikely to have an extra kill to want to give to a vigi that might be fake when we could double lynch - we are also unlikely to even have someone to double lynch.
Thing is: say a legit vig claims a hit, and overnight turns out that person was green/blue. Mafia can now kill the vig for free, because it reveals no new information to us. Or they let him live and allow suspicion to develop. Even some mafia/players could push a case to say that the vig must have been faking and start a bandwagon to lynch, then we lost a lynch and a vig and a vig hit and a bystander. You cannot count on such a bandwagoning attempt to be immediately transparent - i think the power of bandwagoning has been proven in previous games.
I understand we have precious few options for confirming blues, but the adequacy of the plans so far leads me to question whether it is even worth it to bother with them in this round. I suspect it will be better to hold our elected officials to an agenda that solely benefits town - under pressure of lynch if they screw up. This could help minimize any damage done by a possible elected mafia, because an elected townie will act for the towns benefit anyway unless he is an idiot. But then we just screwed up by electing an idiot etc.
edit fixed tags
|
On March 18 2009 10:43 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2009 10:29 Caller wrote:On March 18 2009 10:17 Ace wrote:
The vigi confirmation idea is just all around bad. Too many holes in it for little gain.
1.) Whoever claims vigi can't be mafia or the plan is dead. Even if the DT could check them, thats 1 RC down the drain and doesn't even get us the real Vigi we need. Assuming this doesn't happen...
2.) Now we have to hit a suspected mafia, not a sure fire mafia. Why do this early in the game? Unless we get an RC it's useless. We'd need to wait for more clue analysis. Involving DTs means spreading out already thin Medic protection, which means Mafia is going to rape everyone else very fast.
3.) Assuming we have a legit Vigi and he hits a mafia...now what? Everyone send in their roles to him? Mafia doesn't have to fear another hit from him, there are only so many blue roles that they most can just claim Towny and go on with their lives. Once again DTs will take forever to sort out the liars and may very well be out of Rolechecks at this point. Mafia wins the long term battle on this one.
The Vigi plan isn't going to help until much later in the game when the town doesn't need too much Detective help. From past experience mafia rarely claims vigi, if ever. And one can tell if a kill is mafia or vigilante, usually-mafias in the past have been themed, while vigilantes are of a different theme. More importantly, mafias will give themselves away, especially if the targets in question are inactives or highly suspicious. For instance, if Tim is highly suspicious, and we send Bob after Tim, if Mafia tries to fake the kill it will show up, and "save" us a vigilante kill from revealing a suspicious person. On the other hand, if a legitimate vigilante kills Tim, we have our confirmed Vig. Regardless of whatever role the person hit was. At which point, the vigilante gets incarcerated (which protects him) and can arrange the roles. If Mafia fakes, it is likely that they will stick out like a sore thumb. Sure, it may add some confusion, but at however many mafia they sacrifice. More importantly, people with roles tend not to be inactives. And even if mafia claims Towny, it doesn't matter, because now we have the ability to coordinate night actions, and we can limit the pool of suspected mafia to that of just the townies (unless Godfather impersonates a blue, which although smart, if he's not careful, he may give himself away very easily). And we don't have to rolecheck everybody, we can just use selective information and the use of roles to try and trip up mafia impersonating as blues. edit: yeah I know I have finals, but I'm taking a break from studying. I hate calculus. Well past experience isn't going to help on this one - the rules of the game are different. With the plan these guys have come up with, Mafia claiming vigi is really a valid concern. Even without mafia interference the plan has some big holes but we can't just assume Mafia won't try. Your example actually helps my argument - Tim is highly suspicious. If Tim doesn't flip Mafia the town has just FUCKED up. Bob can be Mafia or legit Vigi but we won't know without solid clue analysis. Even if the clues are worded in a way that shows bob as a vigi(which it won't btw since there are barely any big codenames to go on so far, and even if there were we'd be trying this too early to be able to seperate Mafia codenames from Vigi codenames) what do we do now? Send in all the roles to Bob, who absorbs tons of medic prot and even if he lives now has to sort out liars and coordinate DTs and use up all the rolechecks on the liars? All of you are making the classic mistake you make every game - you look at the good side of the "what if" example and always forget the other side, which more than likely will happen. This time the good side isn't even that good as it's a plan with so many flaws. Very high risk for moderate gain. The best bet for this plan to work is to hope that Bob is a legit Vigi that also happens to be running for Sheriff/Mayor. Even then it probably won't work out well.
The risk isn't that freaking high: if the vigi hits red we know they can't be mafia or even GF and we can send them roles. If the vigi doesn't hit a red we don't send them roles and see what we can figure out from clue analysis, clue checks, role checks.
|
On March 18 2009 10:43 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +
Ok even if they can use them up to 4 times - there is a limit. What if the town has to check multiple people? How do we do it? The DTs can't coordinate and there is no way to know who needs to be checked first. The DTs are gimped on this one and there is no way around it.
Confirm someone and coordination gets a lot easier. Show nested quote +If X is 100% mafia we shouldn't be using the Vigi hit anyway. This means X has to be likely mafia. Why do you say this? If we get someone we think is 100% mafia, why not hit him if it isn't before the lynch? Show nested quote + Even with a cluecheck how do you know who the hit gets linked to from the Mafia side? You don't. However, I checked with Chuiu: The mafia cannot control this. If the GF picks vigi in order to muck up this plan, it means they cannot fake medic or DT or BG and muck up another plan. Furthermore, chuiu has to randomly pick the GF for that hit otherwise all the GF can say is that he missed.
1.) Who are you going to coordinate through? I keep asking this and no one can give a solid answer except "a Vigi" which as we've seen has a ton of problems and takes a lot of time.
2.) If we get someone that is 100% mafia, save the vigi hit and lynch the mafia the next day or on a double lynch unless it's like some ultra crucial timing that reduces mafia KP. Why waste a vigi hit?
3.) the mafia never have been able to control what clues they get, or how they get linked. What I was saying is that as the town you don't know who the mafia are so it's pointless to try and assume how the clues are done.
4.) Why can't the mafia fake medic/bg/dt? Just because the Godfather picked Vigi? Thats not making sense. It's in their best interest to make the DTs run out of rolechecks so they can just 1a2a3a the town in the midgame.
How can the GF call the miss if he's faking Vigi? He can't miss 
|
On March 18 2009 10:48 Ace wrote:
But how will you know they killed the GF's target? Thats what I'm saying. Do we know that the Mafia when they send in their hit list assign them specifically or is it just one big list of names?
[14:12] Qatol's AIM name: ok new question. can the mafia control which mafioso in linked to each hit?
[15:53] Chuiu's AIM name: no
[15:53] Chuiu's AIM name: that would be stupidly unfair
confirm it with him if you like.
|
On March 18 2009 09:54 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
Uov zel-uov ocs hcu are cev iom, Irt doc e?
I doubt it.
|
On March 18 2009 10:48 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
We don't even have to use DT's to check if the vigi hits a red. We won't send roles in unless the vigi hits a red. The GF can't fake a red hit (if all vigis are calling their shots beforehand like we seem to be in agreement a bout).
If we exhaust all our vigi hits without hitting a red we still have a short list of vigis we can then DT check with either clue checks, role checks, or may just clue analysis as Caller explained. If more than 3 vigis role claim, that's probably better than a vote count list would be for winnowing out a mafia.
right...I think you're getting it somewhat. This plan relies on hitting MAFIA. If no mafia get hit, it now comes down to ok, how do we confirm our vets? Use DTs.
Which means we use up even more time and rolechecks.
Mafia lose 1 guy, town has to spread medic protection on these guys and the mafia wins out in the longterm because Dts are using up even more rolechecks.
Then you still have to figure out how to even find the DTs and get them to communicate.
see the problem now?
|
United States7488 Posts
What's all this nonsense about Mafia roleclaiming as Bodyguard?!
NO ONE can claim as Bodyguard. (1) Even when a BG is role checked they show up as a Townie. (2) Which also means the GF can't impersonate a BG as his fake role. (3) The Bodyguards should never tell anyone who they are, especially not the officers.
If the officers know who the Bodyguards are and one of the two officers is Red, that means the other officer is dead and the town just lost the benefits from both the Mayor and the Sheriff. BG's should never be public information and the officer should never at any point in the game know who their bodyguards are because we can't confirm that the officers are not Mafia.
|
On March 18 2009 10:50 Qatol wrote:
How is hitting Townie Tim any worse than lynching Townie Tim? It isn't. All that happens is we have someone roleclaiming vigi that has used his hit. Yes, he could be mafia. That will be taken into account. However, does it really hurt the town? Of course not. Tim was a suspect.
Why does Bob have to absorb tons of medic protection? If he is confirmed, he can coordinate that....
...
Vigis don't have a lot of shots this game. If a Vigi hits Tim the innocent Townie he is no longer confirmed. End of the plan.
If Bob the Vigi turns out to hit Mafia, then all medic prot goes to Bob(who can still be killed) after he's been jailed for a night and everyone else gets killed. Sure, Bob can pass on his unsorted list of liars to someone else - but who does he pass it on to? He can't confirm anyone himself because da da da - he's just a vigi!
see how many holes this plan has even if you get everything right by chance?
|
On March 18 2009 10:54 Ace wrote:1.) Who are you going to coordinate through? I keep asking this and no one can give a solid answer except "a Vigi" which as we've seen has a ton of problems and takes a lot of time. 2.) If we get someone that is 100% mafia, save the vigi hit and lynch the mafia the next day or on a double lynch unless it's like some ultra crucial timing that reduces mafia KP. Why waste a vigi hit? 3.) the mafia never have been able to control what clues they get, or how they get linked. What I was saying is that as the town you don't know who the mafia are so it's pointless to try and assume how the clues are done. 4.) Why can't the mafia fake medic/bg/dt? Just because the Godfather picked Vigi? Thats not making sense. It's in their best interest to make the DTs run out of rolechecks so they can just 1a2a3a the town in the midgame. How can the GF call the miss if he's faking Vigi? He can't miss
1. You coordinate through the vigi that you JUST CONFIRMED with your mafia hit + cluecheck. Alternatively, you can coordinate through a medic/innocent combo from a save.
2. Why not use the vigi hit? Would you rather risk the vigi dying?
3. I have already addressed this.
4. They can. However, they show up to a check if they do it. This plan only needs checks if it is close to succeeding. Otherwise they can be used elsewhere.
GF can't miss, but a vigi can if the mafia hits the target too. So the GF can "miss" if he's faking vigi
|
On March 18 2009 10:50 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
Thing is: say a legit vig claims a hit, and overnight turns out that person was green/blue. Mafia can now kill the vig for free, because it reveals no new information to us. Or they let him live and allow suspicion to develop. Even some mafia/players could push a case to say that the vig must have been faking and start a bandwagon to lynch, then we lost a lynch and a vig and a vig hit and a bystander. You cannot count on such a bandwagoning attempt to be immediately transparent - i think the power of bandwagoning has been proven in previous games.
If the Vig is going to kill a blue/green the mafia will probably let him do it. If the vig is going to kill red they will probably try to kill the vig to prevent organization. If the vig gets killed after killing a blue/green its not the end of the world since they had no power left anyway. If the mafia bandwagon to kill the vig who killed a blue/green I think they will look suspicious - we aren't giving the roles to a vig unless they hit red. On the fourth day if a vigi comes forward saying they are a vigi when we've already had 3 claim then we have a short list from which we can find at least one mafia and if we accidentally kill a blue/green while using clues to sift through it at least they are ones that killed how the town wanted them to (have to make sure we hold them to this so the mafia won't want to fake a vigi and then be asked to kill a red that they can't kill) and are now powerless.
On March 18 2009 10:50 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
I understand we have precious few options for confirming blues, but the adequacy of the plans so far leads me to question whether it is even worth it to bother with them in this round. I suspect it will be better to hold our elected officials to an agenda that solely benefits town - under pressure of lynch if they screw up. This could help minimize any damage done by a possible elected mafia, because an elected townie will act for the towns benefit anyway unless he is an idiot. But then we just screwed up by electing an idiot etc.
I do agree that the vigi plan is a long shot however I don't think it is mutually exclusive with holding elected officials to the demands of the town under pain of lynch - that should happen regardless.
|
On March 18 2009 10:59 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2009 10:50 Qatol wrote:
How is hitting Townie Tim any worse than lynching Townie Tim? It isn't. All that happens is we have someone roleclaiming vigi that has used his hit. Yes, he could be mafia. That will be taken into account. However, does it really hurt the town? Of course not. Tim was a suspect.
Why does Bob have to absorb tons of medic protection? If he is confirmed, he can coordinate that.... ... Vigis don't have a lot of shots this game. If a Vigi hits Tim the innocent Townie he is no longer confirmed. End of the plan. If Bob the Vigi turns out to hit Mafia, then all medic prot goes to Bob(who can still be killed) after he's been jailed for a night and everyone else gets killed. Sure, Bob can pass on his unsorted list of liars to someone else - but who does he pass it on to? He can't confirm anyone himself because da da da - he's just a vigi! see how many holes this plan has even if you get everything right by chance?
I argue that none of your "holes" matter at all.
If the vigi misses, oh well. We still hit a high probability target. We used a vigi the way a vigi should be used. This plan isn't something that MUST happen. It is an option. Furthermore, the vigi can still get confirmed if the town takes out the GF. Alternatively, the other vigi can step up and take HIS shot. Oops! He missed again. Except there are only 2 vigis. We get a free set of roleclaims for the vigi role. Is that really a bad thing?
If the vigi hits mafia, he gets to coordinate medic protection. Why would he put all of the medics on himself? He forces the mafia to play guessing games with KP. Last time I checked that was a good thing?
|
On March 18 2009 10:59 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2009 10:54 Ace wrote:1.) Who are you going to coordinate through? I keep asking this and no one can give a solid answer except "a Vigi" which as we've seen has a ton of problems and takes a lot of time. 2.) If we get someone that is 100% mafia, save the vigi hit and lynch the mafia the next day or on a double lynch unless it's like some ultra crucial timing that reduces mafia KP. Why waste a vigi hit? 3.) the mafia never have been able to control what clues they get, or how they get linked. What I was saying is that as the town you don't know who the mafia are so it's pointless to try and assume how the clues are done. 4.) Why can't the mafia fake medic/bg/dt? Just because the Godfather picked Vigi? Thats not making sense. It's in their best interest to make the DTs run out of rolechecks so they can just 1a2a3a the town in the midgame. How can the GF call the miss if he's faking Vigi? He can't miss 1. You coordinate through the vigi that you JUST CONFIRMED with your mafia hit + cluecheck. Alternatively, you can coordinate through a medic/innocent combo from a save. 2. Why not use the vigi hit? Would you rather risk the vigi dying? 3. I have already addressed this. 4. They can. However, they show up to a check if they do it. This plan only needs checks if it is close to succeeding. Otherwise they can be used elsewhere. GF can't miss, but a vigi can if the mafia hits the target too. So the GF can "miss" if he's faking vigi
1.) what CLUECHECK? The Vigi is going to show up the same night as Mafia codenames IF we even get codenames. So how are you going to know which is which? You can't. Then you still have to find the right clue. And you still are assuming that your highly suspect person is going to flip Mafia. If he doesn't thats it - it's over.
2.) The vigi wouldn't risk dying if none of us know who he is. I'd rather something happen in the day that makes someone plainly obviously mafia, Vigi hitting that guy, and then finding a way to prove it was him rather than going to the reverse option which is just terrible in this game.
3.) actually you haven't. We know the mafia can't control what clues they get - they never have in any mafia game. But since you don't know who the mafia are, you can't tell who the clues point to or how they are done. So when you throw the Vigi in there you just have one big mess and no way of figuring it out.
4.) how do you know the mafia are going to be checked by faking another role? Remember, the DTs are going to have to check every other list too, and this says nothing about how many rolechecks they will have left at that point. Faking blue roles is a very legit strat this game.
and once again - the GF will never miss. He's better off hitting if he wants the town's trust. If his target is Mafia, which he could never hit then he would have never fake claimed vigi to begin with and let the plan continue so they could just ruin it later down the line.
|
On March 18 2009 10:59 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2009 10:50 Qatol wrote:
How is hitting Townie Tim any worse than lynching Townie Tim? It isn't. All that happens is we have someone roleclaiming vigi that has used his hit. Yes, he could be mafia. That will be taken into account. However, does it really hurt the town? Of course not. Tim was a suspect.
Why does Bob have to absorb tons of medic protection? If he is confirmed, he can coordinate that.... ... Vigis don't have a lot of shots this game. If a Vigi hits Tim the innocent Townie he is no longer confirmed. End of the plan. If Bob the Vigi turns out to hit Mafia, then all medic prot goes to Bob(who can still be killed) after he's been jailed for a night and everyone else gets killed. Sure, Bob can pass on his unsorted list of liars to someone else - but who does he pass it on to? He can't confirm anyone himself because da da da - he's just a vigi! see how many holes this plan has even if you get everything right by chance?
If the vigi turns out to be confirmed good the unsorted list will probably yield him some sort of goodies - if everyone does their duty and sends in their role the mafia will have to fake role claim at least one of every blue or there will be someone to pass it on toward. He'll be able to check at least some stuff I imagine and yeah that makes him a big target but this has still been a legitimate goal of the town every game despite the risk it carries. Even if the mafia use 100% of their KP to take him out, that's a ton of KP to kill one person and helps out the town a bunch in catching up to the bad guys.
|
On March 18 2009 11:06 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2009 10:59 Ace wrote:On March 18 2009 10:50 Qatol wrote:
How is hitting Townie Tim any worse than lynching Townie Tim? It isn't. All that happens is we have someone roleclaiming vigi that has used his hit. Yes, he could be mafia. That will be taken into account. However, does it really hurt the town? Of course not. Tim was a suspect.
Why does Bob have to absorb tons of medic protection? If he is confirmed, he can coordinate that.... ... Vigis don't have a lot of shots this game. If a Vigi hits Tim the innocent Townie he is no longer confirmed. End of the plan. If Bob the Vigi turns out to hit Mafia, then all medic prot goes to Bob(who can still be killed) after he's been jailed for a night and everyone else gets killed. Sure, Bob can pass on his unsorted list of liars to someone else - but who does he pass it on to? He can't confirm anyone himself because da da da - he's just a vigi! see how many holes this plan has even if you get everything right by chance? I argue that none of your "holes" matter at all. If the vigi misses, oh well. We still hit a high probability target. We used a vigi the way a vigi should be used. This plan isn't something that MUST happen. It is an option. Furthermore, the vigi can still get confirmed if the town takes out the GF. Alternatively, the other vigi can step up and take HIS shot. Oops! He missed again. Except there are only 2 vigis. We get a free set of roleclaims for the vigi role. Is that really a bad thing? If the vigi hits mafia, he gets to coordinate medic protection. Why would he put all of the medics on himself? He forces the mafia to play guessing games with KP. Last time I checked that was a good thing?
There is no martyr this game, no vet,no jacks, and very few medics. There are only so many guesses to go around.
But ok, go ahead and ignore my warnings. If the vigi misses on a high probability target, now we have to hope we kill the GF and that the original vigi wasn't a normal mafia faking it. Then we also have to hope another vigi steps up, takes his shot, and that the guy he hit flips mafia thereby confirming him instead. but if he misses neither of them are confirmed, 1 person is surely lying if the GF claimed also, and then we trust BOTH of them even though we don't know which one is legit.
Yes, let's go with this idea.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
