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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
On March 18 2009 13:16 motbob wrote: I vote Pyrrhuloxia because I think semioldguy is mafia. Something about his posts don't sit right with me... I'm probably wrong. Yeah I'm kind of confused. I think there's got to be a mafia candidate by now but no idea who it is. I definitely wouldn't even rule out Mr.BabyHands. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On March 18 2009 12:56 Caller wrote: never mind, it was deja vu. T_T as for the vig plan, yeah. Although to be honest, I don't quite understand what's wrong even if the hit is a non-mafia. Again, the clues determine a lot, and if the clues match, the person is either definitely vig or definitely mafia. Otherwise, the person is definitiely mafia, and he dies. To prove that a person is vig, one quite simply puts medic protection (not incarcerates) him. If his name appears in the clues again, he's mafia. If not, likely he's a vig. At which point he can be lynched/incarcerated. There are just so many ways for the mafia fake to go wrong I doubt it would be worth it. sigh here we go again...ok besides all the holes I've pointed out before let's take another hypothetical example. Mr.A claims he's the vigi and wants to kill highly suspected player Suspect X. For now ignore the fact that Mr.A could be mafia/Gf and lying Let's also ignore any DT tie-ins just yet. Suspect X flips Innocent. Doesn't matter if he's blue or green. Mr.A still claims he's innocent so we look for the clues. 1.) If we get codenames for Mafia this game, how do you know which ones link to Mr.A? Everyone is assuming that if Mr.A sends in a kill, the clues based on Suspect X's death link to Mr.A. This is what I've been asking all along, but Qatol's answer from Chuiu doesn't address this. 2.) WHO is going to verify the clue fits? The only person that can do this are DTs but you guys said you don't want to involve them - so once again it comes down to whoever can get the clue to fit best to the codename. Purely subjective and can go wrong. 3.) Chuiu said he's using the "whoever sends in their kills first" ultra broken technique to determine hits. What if the mafia sent in their hits first and it's the same target as the vigi? The vigi comes out, saying his hit missed, he still has one and we're back to square one with no new info and still an unconfirmed vigi. 4.) Most importantly, once again if we get codenames along with #1 how are you going to seperate Mafia codenames from the Vigi codenames since they'll all appear on the same night. Even more what is to stop a mafia from claiming they are a vigi once a clue is linked to them. Remember unlike past games Vigis can act on Night 1 in this game, so there is no clear cut list of which kill goes where. It's impossible to tell. This plan can't even begin to work until way later in the game when more information is passed around and a few key deaths have been coughed up. It's also the reason I'm not voting for any of the other candidates - all of you say you'll do this and that but none of have shown any in depth analysis and willpower to break a plan that looks good on paper. No one can be confirmed if they are elected. So anyone with a "plan" this game is just as good as Mafia. So my vote is more out of I'd rather have some of you not be in office because of the danger you've already presented. | ||
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Fishball
Canada4788 Posts
On March 18 2009 10:43 Ace wrote: Well past experience isn't going to help on this one - the rules of the game are different. With the plan these guys have come up with, Mafia claiming vigi is really a valid concern. Even without mafia interference the plan has some big holes but we can't just assume Mafia won't try. Your example actually helps my argument - Tim is highly suspicious. If Tim doesn't flip Mafia the town has just FUCKED up. Bob can be Mafia or legit Vigi but we won't know without solid clue analysis. Even if the clues are worded in a way that shows bob as a vigi(which it won't btw since there are barely any big codenames to go on so far, and even if there were we'd be trying this too early to be able to seperate Mafia codenames from Vigi codenames) what do we do now? Send in all the roles to Bob, who absorbs tons of medic prot and even if he lives now has to sort out liars and coordinate DTs and use up all the rolechecks on the liars? All of you are making the classic mistake you make every game - you look at the good side of the "what if" example and always forget the other side, which more than likely will happen. This time the good side isn't even that good as it's a plan with so many flaws. Very high risk for moderate gain. The best bet for this plan to work is to hope that Bob is a legit Vigi that also happens to be running for Sheriff/Mayor. Even then it probably won't work out well. Holy shit, the part I bolded was pretty much the conversation I brought up with BC on MSN this afternoon when I was at work. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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Fishball
Canada4788 Posts
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Fishball
Canada4788 Posts
On March 18 2009 13:24 Ace wrote: Fishball stop lying...you don't have a job. Shit, you must have seen me under the bridge with my begging gear on the other night... | ||
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
I want to make it clear that I believe we can only trust the vigi if they hit a red. We should also have the town vote on who we ask the vigi to kill - this means we can force a fake vigi to be obligated to kill one of their own and thus out themselves and avoid a fake vigi continually faking that their kills are being stolen (and if a real vigi gets his kills stolen, well, the dead person has been voted against and thus probably would have been hung later on anyway, and at least the vigi gets their kill back and gets to try again). Of course this plan would require medics to cover the vigi. This means faking a vigi is great for the mafia because they get to have the medics on one of their own while they kill us. Then again, the medics could be doubling up or helping out mafia players anyway since without this plan I don't see a path to organization. Saying I'm as good as mafia is bullshit. For pages now I've explained that my plan wouldn't tie up any DTs because we only trust the vigi if they kill a red because anything else can be fake. Do we want to risk losing vigis / wasting medic protection to try to get a guaranteed blue we can trust? I dunno; we should still be debating it. We're risking losing vigis / medics no matter what we do, everything could be doubled up or used to help mafia if we have no organization. And yes, even if we get a verified blue they could die fast / not get enough role claims / not find someone to pass things on to. But it has been the most helpful thing in the past and was killer in the previous game. I can't imagine it wouldn't be tremendously helpful in some regard this time. The mafia could throw us for a loop but as long as we don't trust anyone who doesn't kill a red (Ace is spot on that we can't rely on codenames to appear or trust someone who claims to be a DT or the mouthpiece of one) then I don't think we're way up shit creek. I suppose It's more than arguable that tied up medics will lose us too many skilled players early and that we shouldn't have vigis killing until we have a lot more clue material. I'm willing to follow whatever the town decides on here and maybe Ace is right that this plan would be best held off until we have more info that would give us more options if the vigi's kill gets blocked. I guess the question is, are we resigned to the fact that early organization is not worth the risk this game and can we trust individual blues to act well without a circle until the DTs build one (which may never happen if they die early or don't get the right checks)? | ||
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
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Chuiu
3470 Posts
On March 18 2009 06:20 Pika Chu wrote: Protecting the vets is the biggest mistake i see since it's clear that most vets got good roles (like mafia or something blue) and not the shitty green which is gave to newbies. I do believe this is the algorithm that Chuiu has followed when designating the roles. This is the algorithm I use. Study it well and you can find out who are mafia. On March 18 2009 13:21 Ace wrote: 3.) Chuiu said he's using the "whoever sends in their kills first" ultra broken technique to determine hits. Quit being emo over game 3. Vote Count: BloodyC0bbler - 10 Qatol Fishball chaoser Jyvblamo Ver Scaramanga Pyrrhuloxia zeks Tricode 3 Lions semioldguy - 10 Phrujbaz 0cz3c Mista Pika Chu BWdero TruthBringer Caller TranceStorm dreamflower CynanMachae Pyrrhuloxia - 5 fusionsdf mikeymoo Teejing LaXerCannon malongo Will post another vote count tomorrow and then a final one before moving to night. | ||
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Once you have a solid set of clues without DT help, then you can try the plan. Of course it will still have some holes, but by then if we have a few Mafia kills I'm sure they'd be less inclined to easily throw members into it even if it might still be a risky idea. It's kinda like PvT. You don't go for Carriers asap because you don't have the resources and because you need more information from your Obsevers to know when to do it. That's what this current plan is like, except we might need some HTs too to storm the gollies. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On March 18 2009 14:08 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: Lol what happened game 3? Chuiu was doing dumb shit no sane mod would do in Mafia. I addressed it before the bullshit happened, he ignored, the bullshit happened anyway and he thinks it's everyone else's fault. | ||
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On March 18 2009 14:03 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: To avoid a fake vigi we could only give a potential vigi one try until we cycle to the next one but then we can't protect them all and mafia will kill real vigis whose hits got stolen. I'm losing hope for this plan, tbh. If Ace's secret plan is a winner if / when he reveals it I won't stand in its way and I'll help if it requires Mayor and / or Sheriff action. My secret plan isn't so hot  Really, all it is: 1.) decide if I should try to get elected or not 2.) based on this, reveal my role 3.) if elected and role is revealed, start trying to verify the two people in this game I know for sure would can come up with something to catch liars | ||
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Chuiu
3470 Posts
On March 18 2009 14:10 Ace wrote: Chuiu was doing dumb shit no sane mod would do in Mafia. I addressed it before the bullshit happened, he ignored, the bullshit happened anyway and he thinks it's everyone else's fault. Typical you would just flame me instead of explaining it to him. They lost an extra hit on one night of game 3 because they lost someone to a vigilante hit. Ace bitched and moaned about their suicide bomber decreasing the hit count when they asked ahead of time if it would or not, but it was the vigilante hit that did it. Of course he just keeps bitching about it, but if they would have hit a Vigilante before the Vigilante sent a hit against them they would never have bitched about that. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On March 18 2009 14:18 Chuiu wrote: Typical you would just flame me instead of explaining it to him. They lost an extra hit on one night of game 3 because they lost someone to a vigilante hit. Ace bitched and moaned about their suicide bomber decreasing the hit count when they asked ahead of time if it would or not, but it was the vigilante hit that did it. Of course he just keeps bitching about it, but if they would have hit a Vigilante before the Vigilante sent a hit against them they would never have bitched about that. *yawn* And this is why we said you're an idiot. Yes obviously we should have hit the vigilante because...we know who he is? Brilliant. Like we have a list of all the Blues in the game from the get go. The problem wasn't solely the fact that it was who got hit - it was that you did it in the first place. In Mafia there isn't supposed to be altered kill lists. It shouldn't matter who sends in what hit first - everything goes through because then it's unfair to both sides. Of course with TEAMLIQUID being an international site, and most of us having jobs/school I'd think it would be even more painfully OBVIOUS doing this is just fucking some players over. There's just no way every time the right person is going to be able to get their PM in to send in a hit/protection or whatever. It's a stupid system that rewards whoever gets it in first when that should have 0 impact on the game. And you can call it bitching and moaning if you want but that one night did change the game dramatically. | ||
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Chuiu
3470 Posts
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Fishball
Canada4788 Posts
Lets just let it go and focus back onto this game. | ||
semioldguy
United States7488 Posts
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
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