EPTTL Mafia 4
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
Does overtime give veterans additional night lives? Or does it just allow them to either have 2 votes or 1 vote 1 extra night life? Does backlash mean that private eyes will reveal themselves to the mafia regardless of who they are checking? How does this apply if the private eye is usng the rolecheck double ability? | ||
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Qatol
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Of our abilities, I would argue that we don't have the information to use a double lynch quite yet, but this would be a perfect time to use a sanctuary. Now I think that DTs are too weak a role to sanctuary, hatters want to die anyways, and private eyes will likely be using abilities right off the bat anyways (though they may decide to hold off immediately thanks to a potential backlash) and thus any sanctuary doesn't really help them much either because they will still just be killed before they can use their second ability if they are targeted. This leaves Veteran and Paramedic. I argue that the most valuable sanctuary is paramedic because it effectively increases the night lives of the town in the long run. Paramedics are the town's most valuable resource. However, if anyone wants to make an argument about using veterans to establish themselves as 100% townies without worrying about taking hits, please be my guest. | ||
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Qatol
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Also, I noticed that the mafia cannot have used backlash today (someone please correct me if I am wrong here) because it triggers the day/night cycle AFTER they decide to use it, so day 1 Private Eye checks should be safe. And Private Eyes, if you decide to use the double ability, I would recommend the role that you guess is mafia for your guessing rolecheck (unless you are trying to confirm a roleclaim). Then you at least know if that person is townie or mafia except for the Don, which you have a 1 in 60 of hitting. Some other clues that I noticed: The crest on the arms of several of the mafia The nuke reference (maybe a staff member clue?) Previous incarceration. Possibly this is connected to a user who has been banned a few times? | ||
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Qatol
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On February 28 2009 15:26 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I think the nuke could also be referring to someone who was recently banned? I just skimmed real fast and didn't notice any staff on the roster just now. I see Bockit and MasterOfChaos. However, both are blue and thus can't actually nuke anyone. It was just a thought | ||
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Qatol
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On February 28 2009 15:38 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: Dude the nuke could just be something chuiu threw in there to explain the plot hole of wait why doesnt the town run away so they don't die? Day 1 is usually red herrings if anything. While this is true, I'm trying to give the DTs something to clue check, even if it is probably a red herring. Trust me, it is useful for the DTs to have other people at least trying to do clue analysis so they can pick the analysis that they think is the strongest to verify. | ||
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Qatol
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Also, I think people can vote for blue_arrow just fine just as long as a vet other than dyno doesn't use their special vote on him. I vote for inertinept I vote for sanctuary paramedic EDIT: I change my town ability vote from sanctuary paramedic to sanctuary veteran | ||
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Qatol
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On March 01 2009 02:06 ahswtini wrote: Why use town abilities so early? None of the paramedics have been revealed, as far as I know, I personally think we should save the three abilities for later. Because I don't think the game will last long enough for us to use all the town abilities (the earliest we can use them all is day 5) before this game is pretty much decided. I would much rather let the mafia hit medics and wonder if their targets were either vets or medic protected tonight than just needlessly lose a source of extra night lives, especially since the mafia KP is 5 now but will decrease in the future. More hits = more likely to hit a medic, which is the most dangerous thing the mafia can do right now. | ||
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On March 01 2009 02:08 BWdero wrote: Just to be on the safe side. We keep Dyno from dying on the first night by using sanctuary veteran right? But we need 31 votes to use it. Do we feel confident that we can get 31 votes on sanctuary veteran between the preliminary vote count and the real vote count? Otherwise it would be best to vote on it now. Losing Dyno is NOT THE END OF THE WORLD. If the mafia realistically want to take him out, they have to stack kills on him. Remember that they have 5 kills per night right now in a 60 person game. They have a lot of people to kill before we get enough clues that we can get a high rate of lynch due to clue analysis. I don't think they can afford to use the hits it will take to overcome medic protection on Dyno (though they will probably throw at least 1 hit at him just in case the medics miss their protections). | ||
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On March 01 2009 02:58 Amber[LighT] wrote: I mean how am I supposed to believe you? Vote count shows a veteran vote going for blue_arrow (just like Dyno said it would) | ||
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On March 01 2009 03:01 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote: Is it a good idea then to sanctuary -> veteran? The good: Dyno. is protected for night, giving us Night 1 + Day 2 to coordinate. Especially with many players in different time zone this is nice. Also medics will not have to worry about overlapping protection on him since he has been sanctuary'd. Other option is to sanctuary -> medic, which will leave mafia if they hit a vet (not dyno) or a medic confused - i think the odds are not too great here, they only have 5 hits right? The Bad: We don't get another ability until NIght 2/day 3 depending what we pick. I say go for it to sanctuary -> vet, we gotta get 31 votes though and right now Qatol is on Sanctuary: Paramedic. Let's get a consensus here. I vote inertinept btw I still argue that it is better to sanctuary the medics because it turns Dyno into a figurehead that the medics can all protect. If we are going to use sanctuary -> vet, ALL of the vets had better voteclaim to Dyno and then use their vet votes on random people so Dyno has a confirmed circle to start with. If it looks like sanctuary veteran is the call, I will gladly change my vote to that. | ||
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Qatol
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I change my town ability vote from sanctuary paramedic to sanctuary veteran | ||
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On March 01 2009 03:11 Scooter wrote: my bad, thanks for clearing that up. To follow up on what Qatol said, are we gonna roleclaim all our veterans? It would be nice to have a list of safe people, but the more veterans that make themselves known the more we have to spread the paramedics around. I argue that we don't roleclaim them publicly. Instead veterans should PM their veteran vote to Dyno and he can spread the IDs of the vets to each other once the vets are confirmed | ||
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Qatol
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On March 01 2009 03:20 ahswtini wrote: Can I point out to the veterans to beware of mafia faking medics. You don't want to think you've got medics covering you, only for most of them to be mafia. This isn't really a huge deal. Medics don't really have to be trusted with much information, and if they fail to make a save and the KP doesn't line up, we just found a mafia. If the medic makes a save, confirmed towny. I would be pretty surprised if the mafia tried to mass fake medic. | ||
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On March 01 2009 03:34 inertinept wrote: yea seriously...benign man? i bet BC is making the clues no offense =P No way. I struggled so hard with the clues that BC made when he hosted haha. | ||
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Qatol
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On March 01 2009 03:50 ahswtini wrote: Regarding the 'sharp' clue, has anyone checked out Rice's profile? Look at his pic: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/userfiles/29447.jpg?1235820932) Just throwing out an idea This might also connect to the vampire idea for the bat interpretation. | ||
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Qatol
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On March 01 2009 12:30 redtooth wrote: Rofl. Good luck with that. People, start switching your votes from inertinept to another list. Let's get a blue_arrow list started (he hasn't responded to our accusations and it's unlikely the vote will shift enough to get him killed). As mentioned before many times, large lists are absolutely useless. It would be much better to get multiple small lists and try to minimizethe number of people actually voting for inertinept. I change my vote to blue_arrow I highly suggest you either follow suit or get your own lists started. Don't make too many lists, however. ~8 people per list is fine IMO. Don't switch over too much so that inertinept ends up not getting killed. That would be terrible, especially considering we don't have vigilantes. While this is a nice initiative, I don't think it should be done this way. I would much prefer that Dyno picks lists of who should be voting for whom because the mafia are less likely to be able to drop votes onto every list. If the mafia follows/ignores Dyno's instructions, we wind up with some lists which are 100% innocent. If they throw extra people onto random lists, we have nice suspects | ||
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Qatol
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On March 02 2009 03:52 d_so wrote: -_- lots of ambiguously worded rules in this game. 1.) Mafia killing power, or even number of mafia. since neither the formula for this or the number is given to us, we just have to guess. this kind of throws a monkeywrench in our centralized list plan because we don't have a firm grasp of how many people are lying. this is why i don't get our plan: this game is different from others because we don't have a firm number of roles, even for mafia. so yeah, in a sense our plan is kinda good because we have eight confirmed people. but that still leaves 52 people that can be lying-- this is in contrast to other games, where we can confirm claimed roles vs # of roles available, or even # of blues+greens vs # of reds Here is one reason we have the plan oriented this way: Look at the private eye abilities. They can rolecheck AND votecheck if they correctly guess the role of the target. This becomes easier if we have a roleclaim for everyone. Here is another reason: We can verify blue roleclaims if the player can't do what we ask them to. For example, let's say the mafia pretend to be a paramedic. If we assign a fake paramedic to protect someone, the mafia COULD decide not to hit that person, but then the protection worked for the cycle and the fake paramedic doesn't gain any trust. They could also decide to hit that person anyways, but then we oust a mafioso. Finally, they could hide a hit somewhere (making it look like they just double stacked hits on that target), but they're wasting KP (making that mafioso effectively a medic for the cycle anyway). The mafia cannot 100% fake any role except townie. However, townies will also get the least trust and information out of the town circle unless they are verified via rolecheck/votecheck/medic save. | ||
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Qatol
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On March 02 2009 04:32 ahswtini wrote: What if the person a medic is watching gets doubled or tripled, the person will have died, and the medic won't be able to do anything about it? I covered that with the "hide a hit somewhere". Basically, it forces the mafia to waste KP overcoming medic protection. The medic doesn't get any extra trust, but if that hit is missing, then the medic doesn't lose any trust either. It just means that a hit was stopped, which is very useful to the town. | ||
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Qatol
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On March 02 2009 04:40 d_so wrote: well, i guess it's better than nothing. i mean i understand what you're saying qatol, and really, what you're saying is obvious. what i was questioning is the effectiveness of process of elimination in a situation where you don't know the exact count of the roles, or even how many mafia there are. veterans, because of the vet vote, you can confirm. others will be far more difficult. but even though i dont like this plan, it's better than no plan i guess. i really think this game is going to come down to clue/behavioral analysis though, not heuristic list checking/etc. Agreed. However, this is something we can do now when there isn't that much data to analyze (especially with the clues). Besides, this isn't really a process of elimination so much as a "let's force the mafia to make a stand on something and hope we get lucky and trap a few." Nobody can be confirmed unless they get rolechecked, cleared through a votecheck, medic saved, or they do something associated with their role that the mafia can't fake. The strength of heuristic list checking might surprise you. Check out BC's mafia game if you don't believe me (just about every hit except Ver came off a heuristic list check). | ||
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Qatol
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On March 02 2009 14:25 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: bloodycobbler said mafia killing power was /2 rounded up so that means mafia has to be 9 or 10 since KP is 5 right? Incorrect. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Chuiu has more mafia than 10 but capped KP at 5 to keep the mafia from cleaning us out too quickly. | ||
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Qatol
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On March 02 2009 14:57 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: "Mafia killing power is like normal Mafia # / 2 rounded up." Look at TL mafia 2. 20 mafia, KP = mafia/2 rounded up. Max KP 9. BC never said if there is a max or not. | ||
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Qatol
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On March 03 2009 06:51 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: Seriously what's with all the people arguing against lynching inertinept AFTER HE ADMITTED TO BEING MAFIA. WTF. It's almost like the don sent out a message to stick up for him and some people did so without reading all of the thread to see how stupid that would be. I don't think that was what people were arguing about. I think they were worried about spreading out their votes so we could get some better votechecks. If I'm wrong, could you point me towards some posts of people defending inertinept? | ||
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Qatol
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On March 03 2009 07:43 Caller wrote: remember how we had a lot of people trolling the other game <cough> attackzerg <cough>  Ah but which game are you talking about? AZ managed to troll several! | ||
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Qatol
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Was MasterOfChaos a mafia as well? His hatter didn't check in fast enough. | ||
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Qatol
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And yeah, the mafia not realizing that townie isn't a role helped end it. Chuiu, could you post the full list of mafia anyways? We were missing 1 I think. Unless that was fearus? | ||
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On March 03 2009 13:26 LucasWoJ wrote: And who were the smurfs? Props to LTT and Dino. Well orchestrated. Wow I don't even get props for my plan haha. Oh well. | ||
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Qatol
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On March 03 2009 13:30 Chuiu wrote: Now lets all play nice and pretend like this thread never happened. btw, 13 vets vs 10 mafia? That seems a bit imbalanced. Just a thought. | ||
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Qatol
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On March 03 2009 13:34 malongo wrote: I really think the problem here was the early votecount. Secret votes from veterans should come with the final count. Wouldn't have mattered. We didn't need the extra vet ids. The mass suicide was coordinated today. All we needed were the roleclaims | ||
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Qatol
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On March 03 2009 13:35 Chuiu wrote: I expected about half of the vets to be voting full time. Meaning only like 6-7 vets would have extra lives and it would only be one extra life. Really the only thing I felt like I made the mistake of was not giving mafia more hits earlier on. If I could have restarted this game earlier Mafia would have 6 hits to start and lose one every other mafia death. I don't see why the vets would ever want to use their extra vote once they confirmed innocence. It doesn't really have a huge impact on the lynch most of the time. | ||
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On March 03 2009 13:37 LTT wrote: Qatol for MVP. He was the first to point out that there was no Townie role in the game. After that we just ran with it. LTT and Dyno are modest here. They helped me sell it. Notice that we emphasize that townies should send in role PMs too. The first one was a mistake by LTT, the rest were on purpose. This wouldn't have worked if they hadn't supported it. | ||
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Qatol
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On March 03 2009 13:37 Chuiu wrote: I really wanted to make a game work where everyone had a role but I guess I'm going to have to redesign Veteran and Private Eye. Any suggestions? First of all, I wouldn't give vets an extra vote at all. Or force them to pick an ability at the start of the game and that is the one they have. Also, I would dump sanctuary. It is far too strong. Finally, give the mafia an ability they can use day 1 if you're going to give one to the town. This wouldn't have worked if they could backlash or snakeskin | ||
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On March 03 2009 13:40 LucasWoJ wrote: Whoops, my bad Qatol, haha. Congrats for that. Someone pointed it out earlier in the thread (zeks, perhaps?), but I didn't make too much of it. Mafia played horribly this game. We actually sent him a PM about that (but didn't ask him to take it down). Bockit also noticed and PMed LTT asking about it. | ||
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On March 03 2009 13:40 Trezeguet23 wrote: I think that the game was dumb since the citizens used a strat that was used in a previous game (so they aren't as smart as they think they are) and since there were over 10 vets, it would have taken us a bare minimum of 12 days to kill everyone. That would have been way long enough for them to figure out the fake roles that we had. In addition, if we all had fake roles, we could not prove that we were a vet since you posted a million pre-vote tallies, and only the vets knew that townie wasn't a roll. Again, this hinges on the town's plan, but it was an already used strat so it's not like they are geniuses. If anyone thinks that the mafia could have done anything different, you are dumb. Again, Chuiu, how could you not see this coming? Btw, you were caught anyways. You went into the TL IRC channel and posted "yo mafia". LTT was sitting there. | ||
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On March 03 2009 13:51 Chuiu wrote: Also, no one got Day 1 clues right. Were those things even clues? We were guessing on them while having a list of most of the mafia and still couldn't get them. Could you post the clues please? | ||
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Qatol
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On March 03 2009 13:53 Chuiu wrote: Invincibility is only for one night and only for one set of roles. It can't be used on the same roles every night and can only be used 3 nights total. Its not very overpowering at all especially when mafia can get a double kill night. We were talking about this too. With only 5 KP a double kill night simply isn't that strong. Please consider having more like 15 mafia in the next game. I think that was the biggest problem. Mafia just didn't have enough people. Well maybe second biggest behind easy vet circle. | ||
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On March 03 2009 13:55 Chuiu wrote: Yeah I agree mafia kill count was too low for this game. Besides Veteran I feel that was the biggest mistake. Any time you give the town a way of organizing and the sheer amount of kill power they had (9 hatters was almost as scary as 13 veterans) things just won't end up well. | ||
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On March 03 2009 14:28 Fishball wrote: OMFG you guys fucking suck I JUST had the free time, since I was busy for the past 4 days, to read the entire thread, starting at page 7, which took me like an hour to catch up... Then BAM, the game ends. I was the last veteran... Boooo We guessed you were townie but we had no idea what role you had. We decided not to bother bombing you because you are you haha. | ||
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On March 03 2009 14:51 zeks wrote: I nearly saved you scum lol guess you guys had already claimed to dyno. before i could post this lol i was a medic  Wow you are really good at getting medic roles. LTT and I were not happy when you made that post haha. However, it didn't really matter. We were only missing like 6 claims at that point and I think we still got another "townie" claim after that post. | ||
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On March 03 2009 15:07 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: what does razor have to do with dont ask dont tell? Don't ask don't tell was chuiu's comment about the clue. It wasn't actually related to the clue itself. | ||
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On March 03 2009 15:07 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I believe I hold the record! In Callers game, I got the village idiot role, I role called Ace as mafia (blindly) claiming to be a Jack. Somehow with around 60+ roles, I role called the God Father, which effectively ended the game. It was before Day 1, I believe? Because Ace was lynched and just shouted about imba and how the game was fucked and his unbeatable plan. So he never got lynched, game just ended. This was still epic as fuck :D Edit: If anyone likes reading mafia, the thread is here pretty hilarious when you can look at the big picture. Dunno, my favorite moment is still here (Opz getting banned for double posting a lot) | ||
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On March 03 2009 15:38 Caller wrote: i liked the part where capek got owned in BCs mafia http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=83951¤tpage=30#594 Haha only because you were the one who did it. Though I admit that was a great moment. | ||
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On March 03 2009 15:55 Fishball wrote: Obviously, you did not follow that thread, nor my previous post in this thread well enough. Let me re-quote myself on page 36. I was never going to die in the first place as I was a veteran, and I was actually hoping for a vigilante to hit me in that game, which never did. Yes, you stepped on my ego when you said I panicked! We would miss you if we just killed you off like that! I don't actually remember why we decided to leave you until last on that list. I think it was just that the clues weren't even close. | ||
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